The DvL event has reminded me how great this game WAS at one time...

[natasevil]

and it makes me sad to see just how far the game has declined recently. Gone are the days of vast open worlds with numerous optional quests to explore that had every bit of dialogue fully voice acted. These worlds felt alive and the quests felt meaningful and all the voice acting really immersed you in the story.

 

Now we get to walk down narrow hallways or alleys for the most part and stare at the back of our characters while we read the text on the screen (most likely reminiscing of the days before or character became a mute).

 

KOTFE would have made a fine game on its own. But to make it part SWTOR just doesn't feel right to me. The style of game play that the developers decided to use for KOTFE just doesn't mesh well with the style of game play that we all grew accustomed to in SWTOR. The contrast in style just makes KOTFE seem cheap and rushed to me compared to the great game play that preceded it.

[CrutchCricket]

Probably because it was cheap and rushed, monthy dragging out of chapters be damned. The one thing I do like from it is the moving camera angles during cutscenes. Makes things feel a bit more cinematic. Of course once it starts doing that in every other shot, it quickly gets annoying.

 

But regardless, the best part of this game is indubitably the original class missions. Which is why I don't begrudge this event as much as most (though I still hate how it completely locks out earlier unfinished characters)

[FireFoxed]

Yes, the decline going from Makeb to Shadow of Revan is very noticeable. Side quest cutscenes are all missing (voice dialogue is still there bizarrely enough), silent companions, no companion influence gain from any of the conversations ... then going into FE Zakuul's "Endless" Swamp is pitiful since most of it is instanced off and Darvannis is just as bad. Not to mention the classic conversations which have the opposite problem from Revan's missing cutscenes. Edited July 14, 2016 by FireFoxed

[Darthflowmotion]

delet this

[PlagaNerezza]

and it makes me sad to see just how far the game has declined recently. Gone are the days of vast open worlds with numerous optional quests to explore that had every bit of dialogue fully voice acted. These worlds felt alive and the quests felt meaningful and all the voice acting really immersed you in the story.

 

Now we get to walk down narrow hallways or alleys for the most part and stare at the back of our characters while we read the text on the screen (most likely reminiscing of the days before or character became a mute).

 

KOTFE would have made a fine game on its own. But to make it part SWTOR just doesn't feel right to me. The style of game play that the developers decided to use for KOTFE just doesn't mesh well with the style of game play that we all grew accustomed to in SWTOR. The contrast in style just makes KOTFE seem cheap and rushed to me compared to the great game play that preceded it.

 

The game has 2 fundamental problems that is limiting its MMO success. The first is Character Development.

 

The story doesn't do enough to uniquely develop you as an MMO character in the world. Decisions you make along the way don't have any influence on future stories. While this is challenging it is what binds you to someone you've made. They've done a much better job on the gear front in helping this cause since launch. I'm super happy about the variety of gear and ability to customize your look. That they have stuck to the guns and allowed gear to be unique and rare for appearance is awesome in my opinion and the dye options are great for this. However, the story still remains very one dimensional. Traditional MMO's followed the old books of decision trees and branches. Some stories are pretty neat as the Agent has a bit of that feel to its story. The SI has some with decisions on Khem Val.

 

The Outlander story is particularly annoying for me because my non-force users are being shoved into the story. My hope is that the future story modes have the writers at a minimum make a force user and non force user story plot line if they cannot handle writing every unique story they should at least provide a story angle written from a prospective of a non jedi/sith.

 

The second major problem is end-game. The system doesn't do well supplying the player long term interesting and world impacting decisions. What that means to me is that you have no real way to build longer term relationships in the game that matter. Reputation is a perfect example of the idea just waiting for execution against the story. I've built this large reputation in the game of "allies". Wouldn't it be nice to incorporate that into the story. As guilds what does our activity yield us collectively? Ships are nice as a starter to this, but there needs to be more added for guilding and being active in the conquest events. Much the same way you've done cosmetic and decorative features.

 

So my allies and I have done HM or NiM content. How can that be incorporated into the story? These don't have to be major incorporation points that dramatically shift the story. However, acknowledging them and making them seem to matter is a fun thing when you are dealing with end-game goals and objectives.

 

As you know new content doesn't last long. Its only going to engage a person until its been completed to their satisfaction level. How you bind a player to a character is how you build subscribers that come back and stay around for the story.

[BrotherJohn]

As a whole the moment they moved away from the class stories into hutt cartel, they blew it and it was the start of a downward spiral sadly. the game was designed at the core to have separate stories that all weaved together and ultimately ended in the same location more or less. it was nice and refreshing and definitely a recipe for success in the MMO world. The issue is now that its just a rail shooter of an MMO and the story they are telling is honestly the largest POS of a story that is so far from swtor origins and star wars in general that its just something that can not be swallowed and enjoyed.

 

The game has become a means for bioware to milk as much cash from players be it subs or cartel digital fluff as they could possible earn before the game is moth balled. And yes this game is not far from being moth balled. The fanboys will scream no no no its not but the way the are handing the game at the customer support level into the in game content being delivered its all just pointing to EAware giving as little as they can to keep it limping along for as long as they can to maximize as much profit before the end. I do not think the game will shut down soon but it will continue to shrink in market share purely due to the direction they are taking with this hideous chapter content system and lack of continued polish. worst of all is even the new players that are either sub or f2p have already started to comment in guild chat how the game seems to want to milk you of money at every moment. with this item or that digital pass to do even the most basic of game play functions. This is not a good thing because BW has to bank of having a new set of players sub for a year or two with yes the massive departure of old subs from the start of the game.

 

Simplest thing to mask the issues would be for them to merge the servers, it would for the immediacy of things hide how poor a job they are doing.

[TUXs]

Yeah...that's likely mostly because it was also NEW at that time.

 

Honestly, the leveling experience has improved exponentially since launch!!! A lot of that "open world" feel you're talking about was due to the fact that we didn't have speeder points unlocked, we didn't have instant QT, combat sucked because you gained new skills so seldom...we had to WALK, or speeder, EVERYWHERE! It took 3-days PER planet. Side quests weren't optional, you HAD to do them to get enough XP...then you'd have to do the PvE space missions to stay ahead of grinding mobs...

 

Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement...there have been HUGE improvements in many areas since those horrific days and nothing about the world size has changed...how you are forced to interact with them has. I can't even imagine how many characters were abandoned before Tat.

[gabigool]

Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement...there have been HUGE improvements in many areas since those horrific days and nothing about the world size has changed...how you are forced to interact with them has. I can't even imagine how many characters were abandoned before Tat.

 

I was thinking about it and as I've said before, I think it's a shame that a lot of those side quests aren't done by new players, as some of them were very, very cool. Likewise, bonus series.

 

NTBADH but I do think the event might have been a bit more enjoyable if some of the 1-50 planet content had been substituted for some of the more grindy achievements. Someone said to me last night they hit 50 on Nar Shadaa.

 

I guess it's tough to walk the line between what is epic on playthrough #1 and tedious by playthrough #5 (let alone 20, or 30). So while it just seems counterintuitive for a game that is clearly new-player oriented to make so much of the content that would appeal to a new player irrelevant, it seems stranger this event didn't take the opportunity to showcase at least some of it.

 

To restate the OP in a slightly different way, I think the 1-50 part of this game still is great from a certain point of view, but you are right T, from a QoL standpoint the updates are well appreciated, especially by veterans.

[TUXs]

I guess it's tough to walk the line between what is epic on playthrough #1 and tedious by playthrough #5 (let alone 20, or 30).

The Tat World quest...during beta, it was broken and you couldn't finish it and it left you hanging mid story...TWICE I tried to complete it (outta at least 4 builds). I was soooo anxious to finally finish the story once the game went live...now....I avoid that dude at the Spaceport like the plague...I don't even look his way any more...he's like that annoying guy at a trade show booth just waiting for you to make eye contact...

 

I do like your suggestion about the grindy stuff being replaced with more of the planet arcs...that would have been a great idea!

Edited July 14, 2016 by TUXs

[ikinai]

The Tat World quest...during beta, it was broken and you couldn't finish it and it left you hanging mid story...TWICE I tried to complete it (outta at least 4 builds). I was soooo anxious to finally finish the story once the game went live...now....I avoid that dude at the Spaceport like the plague...I don't even look his way any more...he's like that annoying guy at a trade show booth just waiting for you to make eye contact...

 

I do like your suggestion about the achievements possibly being tied to more of the planet arcs...that would have been a great idea!

 

Sir? Sir? Excuse me sir, have you heard the word of the Sandpeople today? Sir? Excuse me, where are you going? Sir? Would you like one of our fliers? Okay, I'll be here at the spaceport. Waiting. I'll be here, sir, waiting for you to come back. Are you sure you don't want one of our handouts?

[DenariusJay]

Yeah, theres NO way I can play this game in its vanilla stage again. The game was not great at all at launch, if it was... why was there mass exoduses, tons of server merges, and eventually F2P within like 8 months of release? No game could be considered great with those things happening.

 

Fact is vanilla was pretty much a disaster, the game has been leaps and bounds better since then.

[Floplag]

The day they moved away from the individual story lines per class and companions they killed a large part of what made this game great. I cannot even imagine what idiot thought that was a good idea or why that decision was made.

[TUXs]

Sir? Sir? Excuse me sir, have you heard the word of the Sandpeople today? Sir? Excuse me, where are you going? Sir? Would you like one of our fliers? Okay, I'll be here at the spaceport. Waiting. I'll be here, sir, waiting for you to come back. Are you sure you don't want one of our handouts?

Exactly!!! THAT is the guy I'm talking about

[CrutchCricket]

People are kinda talking past each other.

 

Gameplay, or more specifically QoL has vastly improved.

 

Story, atmosphere, immersion and the basic feel of the world has gone down the crapper.

 

The latter is a little more troubling than the former is pleasing because the reason most people came/stayed here is Star Wars and Bioware writing. If that goes it won't matter how easy it is to level or get around. Or how many shinies they try to dangle in front of us in the shark cage of their RNG.

Edited July 14, 2016 by CrutchCricket

[gabigool]

The day they moved away from the individual story lines per class and companions they killed a large part of what made this game great. I cannot even imagine what idiot thought that was a good idea or why that decision was made.

 

Well, money. There was/is no way they would be able to continue 8 major unique story arcs. I've never once heard them say otherwise, and in interviews I have specifically seen them say that they could not continue to focus on 8 separate stories.

 

Now is that in the context of when they thought this was still an MMO? I do not know.

 

But I believe the plan had to have initially been for the class stories to have been amazing but this was supposed to be an MMO. Sadly that fact caught even BW by surprise, and they still have not learned.

 

The point is, if you do not care about player retention this game is fine. Awesome even. But player retention requires an abandonment of the type of content we saw leveling up because it's simply not realistic to produce in quantity.

 

The only way you could even imagine unique class story (beyond the token Rishi style drive-by) again is if this game gets back up to near launch subscriber level which is probably impossible, but most certainly impossible when people leave as quickly as they join.

 

It is strange to me that it seems only the players want this sort of success for the game.

Edited July 14, 2016 by gabigool

[RaiderMid]

Meh, I don't miss the side quests. This game has always been about the main story to me. It finally feels like a KOTOR game even though this is TOR and a MMO. There are mmo bits there if I get the urge to group up but it's in no way forced.

[Vhaegrant]

Yeah...that's likely mostly because it was also NEW at that time.

 

Honestly, the leveling experience has improved exponentially since launch!!! A lot of that "open world" feel you're talking about was due to the fact that we didn't have speeder points unlocked, we didn't have instant QT, combat sucked because you gained new skills so seldom...we had to WALK, or speeder, EVERYWHERE! It took 3-days PER planet. Side quests weren't optional, you HAD to do them to get enough XP...then you'd have to do the PvE space missions to stay ahead of grinding mobs...

 

Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement...there have been HUGE improvements in many areas since those horrific days and nothing about the world size has changed...how you are forced to interact with them has. I can't even imagine how many characters were abandoned before Tat.

+1

 

Not to mention that development is driven by metrics and feedback.

SWTOR has never been open world, it's just some planets are more effective at disguising the linear nature than others. Not sure how the original got to quest hubs, do quests, go to next quest hub, is any different than the current design.

 

There was an infographic for SWTOR on the Third anniversary ( http://www.swtor.com/info/news/news-article/20141126 ), it was interesting to see how many characters had been created compared to how many had their own ship (had made it off homeworld)

 

59,911,713 characters created to 6,824,056 that owned their own starship.

About 11.4% of characters created had made it further than the end of the Home planet in their Class story

[devincor]

Yeah, theres NO way I can play this game in its vanilla stage again. The game was not great at all at launch, if it was... why was there mass exoduses, tons of server merges, and eventually F2P within like 8 months of release? No game could be considered great with those things happening.

 

Fact is vanilla was pretty much a disaster, the game has been leaps and bounds better since then.

 

There are two sides to that coin. Yes some people left because it was too slow. IMO, those are mostly modern console gamer style players. They devour content in a matter of hours and ready to move on.

 

Others left because it was too fast. I remember Bioware was in shock that people were hitting max level within the first weeks of the game. I am a causal gamer and I still hit 50 by end of a month. People got to the endgame and found there wasn't really any and left.

 

Traditional MMO's have/had timesinks. Usually leveling is one that allows developers time to create new content. (Tux talking about 3 days to complete a planet makes me chuckle.) I came from Everquest. It took me years to get to max level, and I still had not done or seen everything. Completing Epic Quest and working with other players to solve the quest as npc's didn't have markers over there head and no website to go for a write-up 3 hours after quest goes live. Raids took 40+ people around 2-5 hours to complete (not to forget competing with other guilds for mobs due to spawn times) and we did it without Teamspeak style programs, we typed. (EQ has since gone the way of modern MMO, where leveling is fast, questing is simplified, etc.)

 

Now was all that great, no. I don't have rose colored glasses on all of it. Some of that needed to change. I couldn't do today most of what I did then. However I don't see the speeding up of going through content a necessity or benefit to MMO's though. What I find funny is that the part of the game most of us agree is the best ( the 1-50 playthrough) is now what most players rushes through or was streamlined to get through with minimal fuss.

 

I guess the biggest difference between SWTOR and my EQ experience is that I don't feel the bond with my SWTOR characters like I had with my EQ characters. The fact that I can remake my Mains again in a matter of weeks, get back most if not all their equipment in that time just doesn't feel as satisfying.

[Andryah]

Meh, I don't miss the side quests. This game has always been about the main story to me. It finally feels like a KOTOR game even though this is TOR and a MMO. There are mmo bits there if I get the urge to group up but it's in no way forced.

 

Yeah, I don't miss the side quests either. They were simply a tread mill to fill in the needed XP IMO... since the story alone in vanilla SWTOR would not get your there.

 

The QoL changes since launch, most of the added content, and the addition of a fast track via Heroics if you simply want to level a character up and not bother with leveling story at all ALL make the game better then at launch.

 

Class specific story was nice... but I understand how inefficient it is for forward progression. So I accept the non class specific story arcs and enjoy them just as much.

 

If they put an early vanilla version on a separate server and offered free transfers... the forum would melt down with complaints about how tedious it is.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Andryah

[Ruhun]

Yeah, I don't miss the side quests either. They were simply a tread mill to fill in the needed XP IMO... since the story alone in vanilla SWTOR would not get your there.

 

The QoL changes since launch, most of the added content, and the addition of a fast track via Heroics if you simply want to level a character up and not bother with leveling story at all ALL make the game better then at launch.

 

Class specific story was nice... but I understand how inefficient it is for forward progression. So I accept the non class specific story arcs and enjoy them just as much.

 

If they put an early vanilla version on a separate server and offered free transfers... the forum would melt down with complaints about how tedious it is.

 

It's tedious for leveling alts, but what we have right now is just plain forgettable and boring.

 

On my first play through I didn't feel like the game was too slow or grindy, I did FlashPoints and heroics with others.

I did the planet storylines and the bonus missions. The game felt fleshed out and I had things to do.

 

I can still do them, but I have no incentive to. I hit level 35 on DK.

[TUXs]

There was an infographic for SWTOR on the Third anniversary ( http://www.swtor.com/info/news/news-article/20141126 ), it was interesting to see how many characters had been created compared to how many had their own ship (had made it off homeworld)

 

59,911,713 characters created to 6,824,056 that owned their own starship.

About 11.4% of characters created had made it further than the end of the Home planet in their Class story

Wow...I never pieced that one together...maybe "story" isn't all players really want huh?

[Andryah]

59,911,713 characters created to 6,824,056 that owned their own starship.

About 11.4% of characters created had made it further than the end of the Home planet in their Class story

 

A lot of that is probably people rolling level ones for the cantina loot RNG rinse&repeat, or to hold names, or to fill up their character bar with temp characters because they like a full character bar (I have known a couple of people over the years that actually do this one for some compulsion I'll never understand). And then there are people with GTN alts.. like me. I have a dozen or so, and none of them have their ships... because they don't need them.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Andryah

[Exly]

Yeah...that's likely mostly because it was also NEW at that time.

 

Honestly, the leveling experience has improved exponentially since launch!!! A lot of that "open world" feel you're talking about was due to the fact that we didn't have speeder points unlocked, we didn't have instant QT, combat sucked because you gained new skills so seldom...we had to WALK, or speeder, EVERYWHERE! It took 3-days PER planet. Side quests weren't optional, you HAD to do them to get enough XP...then you'd have to do the PvE space missions to stay ahead of grinding mobs...

 

Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement...there have been HUGE improvements in many areas since those horrific days and nothing about the world size has changed...how you are forced to interact with them has. I can't even imagine how many characters were abandoned before Tat.

 

As a long time player I do appreciate the changes that were made to make leveling faster. However, when the game first launched I really wanted to do every side quest that there was available to me.

 

Back then, the game was new and interesting, and I didn't even consider using the space bar to get through content faster back then, and bonus missions on planets were my way of keeping ahead of the curve when leveling.

 

I also found it interesting how the writers manages to create 8 story lines that let me see what was happening in the SWtoR galaxy from different points of view, and in seeing how those stories drew from each other to create a larger overall story that gave me a sense of what was happening, and why certain things did happen.

 

So, it might be nostalgia, but it was also the golden age for story this game, and it is too bad that the format was abandon for the current one dimensional story that we are getting today.

[Vhaegrant]

A lot of that is probably people rolling level ones for the cantina loot RNG rinse&repeat, or to hold names, or to fill up their character bar with temp characters because they like a full character bar (I have known a couple of people over the years that actually do this one for some compulsion I'll never understand). And then there are people with GTN alts.. like me. I have a dozen or so, and none of them have their ships... because they don't need them.

 

I realise that there's a goodly size chunk of the player base that feel the need to guard their character name obsessively, going and making up characters and reserving names on every server, even ones that they have no intention of playing on. But then I didn't twist BW's arm to use the inflated numbers either

 

It's always a fine line with metrics and how they get interpreted, just look at the most popular crystal colour... really, one that was given away for free to all early access players, the shock

 

Unfortunately the sort of figures that would give a more realistic picture of the state of the game are going to be under lock and key

[Degan]

A lot of that is probably people rolling level ones for the cantina loot RNG rinse&repeat, or to hold names, or to fill up their character bar with temp characters because they like a full character bar (I have known a couple of people over the years that actually do this one for some compulsion I'll never understand). And then there are people with GTN alts.. like me. I have a dozen or so, and none of them have their ships... because they don't need them.

 

I can go with a small percentage of folks rolling lowbies for names, and GTN. Not so much for cantina loot crates since before 2015 it was pet codes and CC codes given to people who attended. Last year is when the crates started with codes for all, unless I am badly mistaken.