Alignment doesn't make sense, BioLucas

[bantros]

Probably mentioned earlier but they went from the KOTOR style to the new, improved Mass Effect alignment only to go back again and for what?

 

It was a bad system in KOTOR and it is still a bad system

[DarkSeverance]

Its because you are forgetting that the LS DS felas can use the neutral gear. out of the 7 possible relic drops LS can use 5 not 2. And DS can use 5… Neutral can only use 3. So LS /DS can use 71% of the dropped relics. And neutral can only use 42%.

The available relics 5 vs 3 (2 more) is roughly a 66% increase if you are LS or DS. It’s a problem that by being not 100% LS/DS you are effectively cutting your chances at getting useable gear.

That is true I did forget to include that.

 

But you are also forgetting one big factor. If the drops or mission rewards were specific to just that level and there was only a set amount to pull from, then those numbers would be correct. However it is random and from a slightly larger pool and that the supply doesn't change. Random is still random.

 

But that is all besides the point. Originally the discussion was based on the misconception that if you choose "Light" or "Dark" then you get access to wonderful items and gimp yourself if you choose to go Neutral. The reality of that however is not correct. It isn't easier either, but then again being Neutral isn't easy.

[Emencie]

That is true I did forget to include that.

 

But you are also forgetting one big factor. If the drops or mission rewards were specific to just that level and there was only a set amount to pull from, then those numbers would be correct. However it is random and from a slightly larger pool and that the supply doesn't change. Random is still random.

 

But that is all besides the point. Originally the discussion was based on the misconception that if you choose "Light" or "Dark" then you get access to wonderful items and gimp yourself if you choose to go Neutral. The reality of that however is not correct. It isn't easier either, but then again being Neutral isn't easy.

 

I agree. My main problem is that there is a penalty for being neutral. Not that there is a reward for light/dark. but rather that as we both just figured out. Being neutral means you just have less options to choose from in basic gear. Even not being neutral has that problem. Just choosing a few "DS" options can mean you cant get the new lightsaber for a few more levels. Our dialogue options shouldn’t hurt our characters in such a way. Armor weapons and accessories are all out of reach for many neutrals. I would say as a neutral character I notice about 40% of the gear I look to buy on the Galactic market, from venders and that drop are things I cannot use. This is a problem. It would be just as bad if any aspect of the game caused this.

[wikimon]

wait a second. there's game drops that are light/dark restricted?

 

it's official then, terrible design.

[DarkSeverance]

Just choosing a few "DS" options can mean you cant get the new lightsaber for a few more levels. Our dialogue options shouldn’t hurt our characters in such a way. Armor weapons and accessories are all out of reach for many neutrals. I would say as a neutral character I notice about 40% of the gear I look to buy on the Galactic market, from venders and that drop are things I cannot use. This is a problem. It would be just as bad if any aspect of the game caused this.

This would be true if those decisions weren't somehow reversible. They are easily changed with Diplomacy and running Flashpoints for Darkside/Lightside points.

 

Unfortunately the Galactic Market has a couple issues working against you. One being that the game is new, a lot of the items just aren't on there. I vendor most of my items or break them down instead of selling them. So does my wife and a few players. Mainly because of Market issues. Once there are updates to make it something more user friendly, most people will start to use it again. The other is the game is new, so it doesn't quite have the drops all being listed. What is dropping is being used. Once the game is out longer and more items end up not being used, the Galactic Market will pick up. You can't expect a game that has been out a couple weeks to have a full Market with the majority of drops out there.

[Esaru]

Another entitlement thread. Hooray!

 

Why does there have to be a "reward" system? I understand that's what you have been trained to think.

 

Why not just let it be? You are either light, neutral or dark.

 

I am not sure what you want to be "rewarded" for when making a decision?

 

Do you get rewarded for every decision you make in life? No.

 

So, why should this be any different?

 

This is another pointless thread.

 

I'm upset to see this constant level of stupidity of these forums. It seriously makes me just shake my head in pity

 

People who go neutral can't use 2 major item slots (relics) compared to people who go fully light or dark. It isn't any more complicated then that, and if you can't see the problem with it... I don't know what to tell you

[DarkSeverance]

People who go neutral can't use 2 major item slots (relics) compared to people who go fully light or dark. It isn't any more complicated then that, and if you can't see the problem with it... I don't know what to tell you

That isn't true at all. There are quite a few Neutral relics that are the same.

[Dymensia]

if i've painstakingly accrued 1000 lightpoints and 1000 darkpoints i should be able to choose lightrank I and darkrank I rewards.

 

I agree with this. If you are neutral you have the disadvantage of not having focused entirely to one side but the advantage of getting a bit from both the more committed your character is to neutrality.

 

However, I will say your post is worded fairly extreme for the situation. The rewards for being lightside/darkside are mostly mod-able gear and a mount (which are fun cosmetic, but don't effect your potential). Something they can fix in the future and doesn't stop people from playing now.

[Wapner]

Am i the only Smuggler that finds that this isnt an issue for me?

Personally, i dont care for what colour my lasers are...

 

Im a "Give me the most money" smuggler and i seem to be drifting from -350 Alignment to 300 Alignment which is paying off for most money out of quests...

 

It becomes an issue when every piece of gear you see that's an upgrade has a light or dark point requirement on it. You'll then be forced to pick light or dark and focus on that if you want gear upgrades.

[wikimon]

That isn't true at all. There are quite a few Neutral relics that are the same.

 

where's the vendor in the capital city for these relics?

[Emencie]

This would be true if those decisions weren't somehow reversible. They are easily changed with Diplomacy and running Flashpoints for Darkside/Lightside points.

The punishment of

You roleplayed your character now suffer the consequences of having to farm more LS/DS points for gear!

Is my main problem

It just doesn’t belong in this game at all. Why? LS / DS characters don’t even get a “special” reward that is hard to get. Just play through the game pick all 1’s and you get every LS thing available to you. No effort no thought needed. And you aren’t even special because most everyone will do the same and all get access to the same things. Its not a reward its just expected and makes you look like your alignment. That’s the problem. As a neutral you are just gimped because the Devs thought 5 out of 7 relics at level 28 was fine. Not thinking that a lot of people cant use 5… but only 3.

 

Only people that think over what will my character do in this situation and respond accordingly. Choosing both lightsided and darksided options, they get punished. By not having access to gear everyone else gets for not giving a crap about the story/dialogue options.

 

The fact that you can reverse it no matter how easy at low levels or how difficult at high levels has no barring on the fact that you shouldn’t have to do that. Why punish anyone for their dialogue options. Especially if you are punishing only one group.

[wikimon]

if they were going to go with this system, they should have made it abundantly clear how it works and what the end result is going to be for your choices.

 

gaining both light and dark points? that's dumb. why would you make a system to confuse people into thinking they "gain" points for both sides.

 

choice 1 - Light +100

choice 2 - Light +100

choice 3 - woops accidentally hit the murder button Light -100 not "Dark +100"

 

having double gains that actually equal losses is idiotic. why are you bothering to show your Lightpoint and Darkpoint totals? they don't mean ANYTHING in the game. at all.

 

the only thing that matters is the Light - Dark actual total.

 

infuriatingly bad design

[Pythagoreas]

i DID pick a side. if i got 1000 light points that means i did as much for "good" as jedi anakin whatshisface over there.

 

what does it matter that i also did 1000 darkside points as well? there's no consistancy in the game for BEING both light and dark. your mentor or whoever you visit doesn't change his dialog. he doesn't scowl at you reproachfully for killing women and children on hoth, so long as whatever choices you make in his presence are good and wholesome.

 

therefore with zero consistency in the story, what do you care "who rewards you?"

 

you're saying this as if it BREAKS SOMETHING that isn't currently BROKEN.

 

Star Wars canon is a bit schizophrenic about LS/DS effects. There's good evidence of DS energy acting like a system toxin, warping your thinking and body (look how quickly after crossing the line Anakin becomes willing to slaughter children and gets the glowey-eyes). OTOH, Palpantine was able to hide his DS nature up to the end, and he was a Sith Lord able to stomp Yoda.

 

A better analog than hole-digging or food across town is to take the force for what it is - a bio-energy field. Light operates at one frequency, Dark at another frequency. Thus if you've got 1000 amps at 50 hz, and 1000 amps at 80 hz, and try to use equipment that is designed to take 50 hz input (at any amperage), the 80 hz energy might just keep it from working (like trying to play a 50hz PAL video recording on a 60hz NTSC TV - it just doesn't work without a bunch of special conversion gear)

 

There's a story / pseudo-science explanation for why the meter works the way it does. Whether you're willing to sacrifice RP elements to min/max, and whether the cap should be removed so that you can RP and min-max at the same time, are another matter.

[Connection]

if they were going to go with this system, they should have made it abundantly clear how it works and what the end result is going to be for your choices.

 

gaining both light and dark points? that's dumb. why would you make a system to confuse people into thinking they "gain" points for both sides.

 

choice 1 - Light +100

choice 2 - Light +100

choice 3 - woops accidentally hit the murder button Light -100 not "Dark +100"

 

having double gains that actually equal losses is idiotic. why are you bothering to show your Lightpoint and Darkpoint totals? they don't mean ANYTHING in the game. at all.

 

the only thing that matters is the Light - Dark actual total.

 

infuriatingly bad design

 

Then stop complaining and just chose a side, who cares?

[Pythagoreas]

My approach to gear/mechanics would be:

 

Gear that requires LS/DS tiers is only available for force users, and is statistically very slightly, if any, better than the items available for non-force users of the same level.

 

If you are a jedi, and picked up a few DS points, then that's a shame, you can't get the very very best LS-imbued item, take the 1-tier-down or force-free gear. A) It shouldn't make a noticable difference. B) Face it, only Qui-Gon was that good. Yoda was an arrogant little puke, I'd say that he'd picked up some DS points along the way.

 

Of course, that's coming from the PoV of a pen-n-paper DM who doesn't have to maintain a huge paying subscriber base.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pythagoreas

[Dohi]

No, people. These aren't Republic-side and Empire-side points. You choose what side you're working for when you make your character.

 

Light-side and dark-side choices have nothing to do with working for one side or another. If I kill a Sith instead of sparing him and giving him a chance for redemption, that's dark-side, but it sure as hell isn't helping the Empire out.

 

"Neutral gear" should have the same restrictions as color crystals (i.e. "forbidden to Light Side I and above" and vice versa) but on both sides, so you can't use it if you've achieved a tier either way. Of course, you can still have issues with a person's natural choices resulting in straying into tier I dark-/light-side, but there's not much of a way around that without completely changing how the mechanic works or just giving people access to light-/dark-side gear based on only the tally of one-side or another instead of the net total (which I am against).

 

This post states EXACTLY why the LS/DS choices are misleading. for it to be a true LS/DS alignment, a Jedi who chooses mostly DS options should eventually become a Sith, and a Sith who chooses mostly LS options should eventually find redemption and be invited into the Jedi order. For those non-force users, TRUE LS/DS alignment wouldn't matter as they don't use the force. That being said, moral and immoral choices for non-force users should create a reputation with the galaxy as a whole and affect how NPC's react to them. The LS/DS alignment as it stands is BROKEN from a Star Wars Lore perspective and NEEDS to be fixed.

 

As far as LS/DS gear is concerned, it needs to be removed. It has been shown to be nothing but a farming enticement. This last is just MY opinion, do not berate me for it.

[Warlocc]

Choose a side, use that side's gear.

 

Don't choose a side, don't use either side's gear.

 

Don't like it? Don't play a game where you have to choose a side.

 

------

 

Don't like that the decision you wanted gives DS points instead of LS points? Pick up Diplomacy.

 

------

 

If this is seriously an issue for you, you might have to consider that you are spoiled and just want to have all of the perks and none of the restrictions.

[wikimon]

Choose a side, use that side's gear.

 

Don't choose a side, don't use either side's gear.

 

Don't like it? Don't play a game where you have to choose a side.

 

if choosing a side is the only option for success it should just lock you in to light or dark and only pick those dialogue choices. since that's what people do ANYWAYS

 

some "game"

[Bdatik]

if choosing a side is the only option for success it should just lock you in to light or dark and only pick those dialogue choices. since that's what people do ANYWAYS

 

some "game"

 

Are you saying that it's impossible to be successful if you chose grey?

[Garrhyck]

why give us options if the only way to get rewarded in the game for your choices is to pick ALL THE GOOD ONES, or ALL THE BAD ONES?

 

why make it so you shoot yourself in the knee by answering the questions as you think your character would?

 

alignment rewards should not be lightpoints - darkpoints = reward level. this makes no sense. if i've painstakingly accrued 1000 lightpoints and 1000 darkpoints i should be able to choose lightrank I and darkrank I rewards.

 

the system makes no sense at all as it stands. you're only rewarded for making the correct side choice every time, and you don't even make it a challenge by allowing UI to turn on gain displayed in the conversation choices.

 

tldr: go light 100% or dark 100% because being different means you get nothing

 

I Totally Agree,

 

I'm playing my sith as I want my Character to be. No goal in reaching maestry in Light/Dark side. Just taking the decision at the moment according to the advantage/disadvantage I can get from the choice, and also according to the feeling I have in that moment.

 

In particular I don't like the Idea of a full light sith as a Jedi born on the wrong side of the war, but also I don't thik that all sith are psyco-killers that belive in chaos and free murdering.

 

There are IMHO many siths more calculative, that kills only on precise golas, capable also of good actions alternate with dark side action moved by feelings of revenge or just because "evil is not evil if in favor of the Empire".

 

For those that plays their character in this way, like me, the alignment can move from Dark rank 1 to light rank 1, but rarely can move upper or lower.

 

I'm realizeing that this game gives only disadvantages for these who play their character in this way, because while we grow up in levelling, objects requires higher and higher levels in dark/light sides.

 

I don't think this is a good choice by bioware, because I think people that don't follows full dark or light sides are the one who really lives more deeply the story and their character and it's a shame if they get disadvantages.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Garrhyck

[Emencie]

Choose a side, use that side's gear.

 

Don't choose a side, don't use either side's gear.

 

Don't like it? Don't play a game where you have to choose a side.

 

------

 

Don't like that the decision you wanted gives DS points instead of LS points? Pick up Diplomacy.

 

------

 

If this is seriously an issue for you, you might have to consider that you are spoiled and just want to have all of the perks and none of the restrictions.

Chose a Side?

 

What is with this line of thinking? Did George Lucas somehow make a bunch of clones of himself?

 

People are not one dimensional. If you have chosen for your character to be completely one dimensional that's fine. But your character isn't a real character.

 

Just because a character is in love(darkside option), Doesn't mean they are a murderer (dark side option)

 

Just because a character is not a murderer (lightside option), Doesn't mean that they aren't a liar (lightside option)

 

Just because a character is a liar (darkside option), Doesn't mean they are a jerk for no reason (darkside option)

 

According to your "chose a side" argument along with a lot of that thinking I have read in this thread.

 

Lying, stealing, falling in love and murdering people are the same exact thing and if you chose to do one you should do them all or else you have a bipolar character...

 

Right...

[kaelthun]

I thought the whole LS/DS thing was cosmetic. I like it this way and prefer to keep it as such. It's an extra - not a gamechanger for me. Plus, I'll be rocking PvP or PvE raid gear most of the time anyway. Plenty of orange stuff to mod myself into (should it be viable to do so).

 

Play with perfect DS choices: Get access to darkside rewards.

Play with perfect LS choices: Get access to lightside rewards.

Play with no extra thought put into your choices other than "I'll do whatever I want": get nothing.

 

Just as it should be.

[Emencie]

I thought the whole LS/DS thing was cosmetic. I like it this way and prefer to keep it as such. It's an extra - not a gamechanger for me. Plus, I'll be rocking PvP or PvE raid gear most of the time anyway. Plenty of orange stuff to mod myself into (should it be viable to do so).

 

 

Play with perfect DS choices: Get access to darkside rewards. (picking all 3's)

Play with perfect LS choices: Get access to lightside rewards. (picking all 1's)

Play with extra thought put into your choices, "what would my character do in this situation?" get nothing.

 

Not as it should be.

 

Fixed that for you bro.

[wikimon]

Are you saying that it's impossible to be successful if you chose grey?

 

no i'm saying there's no reward.

 

if success at playing the game is determined by "perform action, get something" then yes. you are not successful at "the game" by being grey

[Pythoris]

Why would you get rewards for not choosing a side? Who gives you the reward, the not-Republic or the not-Empire? By

 

*Picard facepalm*

 

Once again, Allignment =/= faction.

 

Seriously, why have I had to say this a million times? lol