4.4 and no class''Balance''

[Floplag]

Thank you. If I had posted a similar response, people would have jumped at me.

.

 

Yeah i get more than a little grief for my views, nasty cute little in game messages and such from people that always seem to hide behind that level 1 alt they just created as opposed to actually using their names i might know them by.

 

Fortunately it doesnt bother me, i dont concern myself with the views of those who have to jump classes or play with a complete team to compete and confuse that with skill.

 

The frogs can keep jumping, wont change me in the least

[Anishor]

I cannot believe people still think Jugs/Guards are overpowered they are overplayed yes, but if you take the leaderboards for the last TWO seasons, Jugs/Guards are a bit underpowered and they burn quickly in the current DOT spread/tech dmg meta. Also for those of you that don't know the only +2k Jug is a DPS tank who farmed bad tanks.

 

Now this doesn't mean I think they should get a ton more defense. I think slight adjustments such as Rage/Focus getting 30% dot dmg reduction as a talent and maybe Enure acting more like a heal when it ends ( ie you only lose the health above your normal max if you're above your starting point) for both specs. Or you could redesign engraged defense to be a dmg reduction rather than self heal, but I don't see that kind of redesign happening outside a major meta shift from an expac or lvl increase.

 

Rage needs more sustained dmg as well, and increasing force lash (the force dmg attached to slash, cyclone, and riposte) and force crush dmg would be a good way to get there without increasing their burst.

 

Vengeance needs its ravage damage back.

 

I believe sorc healers only need roaming mend adjusted along with some changes to their fdorce management would be a good start for seeing how balance is.

 

Madness Sorcs need an adjustment IMO. They should be more like Warlocks in WoW in that they can do better ST dmg less dot spread. Change the dmg dots tick on targets not being hit with force lightning to be about 50% of what they are now, when you hit a target with force lightning the dots tick at 130% of what they do now. This gives move counter play.

 

Lightning Sorcs - Chain lightning proc needs to have it's ICD reduced slightly and Thundering blast should hit harder.

 

Lethality Operative - Backstab should apply/refresh both dots.

 

Concealment Operative - Roll needs to be redesigned so you can give this class more offense.

 

IO Merc - Button Bloat needs reduction

 

Arsenal Merc - I've seen them do really well in yolos and think they're in a strong spot, perhaps get a bit of speed back in their legs?

 

AP PT - Good place.

 

Pyro PT - flamethrower needs its teeth back.

 

Maras - I think as a whole Maras are also in a good place.

 

Other healers cannot be objectively balanced while Sorcs are so far ahead IMO.

 

Tanks - Need to adjust defensive stats to either deal with dots or help with crits. Guard needs to be proportional to the amount of defensive stats a tank has ( reducing the effectiveness of dps tanks as both tank and dps, they can pick one. )

[Floplag]

I cannot believe people still think Jugs/Guards are overpowered they are overplayed yes, but if you take the leaderboards for the last TWO seasons, Jugs/Guards are a bit underpowered and they burn quickly in the current DOT spread/tech dmg meta. Also for those of you that don't know the only +2k Jug is a DPS tank who farmed bad tanks.

 

Now this doesn't mean I think they should get a ton more defense. I think slight adjustments such as Rage/Focus getting 30% dot dmg reduction as a talent and maybe Enure acting more like a heal when it ends ( ie you only lose the health above your normal max if you're above your starting point) for both specs. Or you could redesign engraged defense to be a dmg reduction rather than self heal, but I don't see that kind of redesign happening outside a major meta shift from an expac or lvl increase.

 

Rage needs more sustained dmg as well, and increasing force lash (the force dmg attached to slash, cyclone, and riposte) and force crush dmg would be a good way to get there without increasing their burst.

 

Vengeance needs its ravage damage back.

 

I believe sorc healers only need roaming mend adjusted along with some changes to their fdorce management would be a good start for seeing how balance is.

 

Madness Sorcs need an adjustment IMO. They should be more like Warlocks in WoW in that they can do better ST dmg less dot spread. Change the dmg dots tick on targets not being hit with force lightning to be about 50% of what they are now, when you hit a target with force lightning the dots tick at 130% of what they do now. This gives move counter play.

 

Lightning Sorcs - Chain lightning proc needs to have it's ICD reduced slightly and Thundering blast should hit harder.

 

Lethality Operative - Backstab should apply/refresh both dots.

 

Concealment Operative - Roll needs to be redesigned so you can give this class more offense.

 

IO Merc - Button Bloat needs reduction

 

Arsenal Merc - I've seen them do really well in yolos and think they're in a strong spot, perhaps get a bit of speed back in their legs?

 

AP PT - Good place.

 

Pyro PT - flamethrower needs its teeth back.

 

Maras - I think as a whole Maras are also in a good place.

 

Other healers cannot be objectively balanced while Sorcs are so far ahead IMO.

 

Tanks - Need to adjust defensive stats to either deal with dots or help with crits. Guard needs to be proportional to the amount of defensive stats a tank has ( reducing the effectiveness of dps tanks as both tank and dps, they can pick one. )

 

Its a matter of context, do i think Juggs are OP, no, i dont. but in a 1V1 encounter they have amazing survivability tools. Does this make them OP, no. Does it make them darn hard to kill 1V1, heck yes.

Skank tanks are another matter... but its moot so.

[DarthOvertone]

The problem with there being no class balancing is that the current Meta has become deplorably stale. Peeps just want a balancing pass to shake up the Meta so we have something new to do. BW has historically been terrible at balancing classes in this game. Don't think for one second that a new balancing pass would fix anything aside from resetting the Meta. However, if BW would simply do that, it would be enough for at least six months or so.

[Lhancelot]

The problem with there being no class balancing is that the current Meta has become deplorably stale. Peeps just want a balancing pass to shake up the Meta so we have something new to do. BW has historically been terrible at balancing classes in this game. Don't think for one second that a new balancing pass would fix anything aside from resetting the Meta. However, if BW would simply do that, it would be enough for at least six months or so.

 

Yeah there's some truth to this. It actually gets people into playing or making alts because we know we all like our fotm OP'd toons to dominate on!

 

It's true though. My merc healer is shelved (again) and won't come out till they improve upon the class.

 

That or, my sub time runs out and I won't have a chance to ever see merc heals enjoy some glory. I am betting no class balance changes, not for another 2 years though.

[Floplag]

The problem with there being no class balancing is that the current Meta has become deplorably stale. Peeps just want a balancing pass to shake up the Meta so we have something new to do. BW has historically been terrible at balancing classes in this game. Don't think for one second that a new balancing pass would fix anything aside from resetting the Meta. However, if BW would simply do that, it would be enough for at least six months or so.

 

Agreed, it has definitely become a same old same old kind of thing. As long as Mercs dont end up FOTM id be happy with almost any changes at this point just to shake it up a bit.

[Kazz_Devlin]

What is this? This doesn't even seem remotely accurate.

 

they heck it ain't! Most matches consist of 3-4 bubble princess's and 3-4 jugs with rest filled in with various other classes.

not even uncommon to see 6 bubble princess's in a match.

[Kazz_Devlin]

I cannot believe people still think Jugs/Guards are overpowered they are overplayed yes, but if you take the leaderboards for the last TWO seasons, Jugs/Guards are a bit underpowered and they burn quickly in the current DOT spread/tech dmg meta. Also for those of you that don't know the only +2k Jug is a DPS tank who farmed bad tanks.

 

Now this doesn't mean I think they should get a ton more defense. I think slight adjustments such as Rage/Focus getting 30% dot dmg reduction as a talent and maybe Enure acting more like a heal when it ends ( ie you only lose the health above your normal max if you're above your starting point) for both specs. Or you could redesign engraged defense to be a dmg reduction rather than self heal, but I don't see that kind of redesign happening outside a major meta shift from an expac or lvl increase.

 

Rage needs more sustained dmg as well, and increasing force lash (the force dmg attached to slash, cyclone, and riposte) and force crush dmg would be a good way to get there without increasing their burst.

 

Vengeance needs its ravage damage back.

 

I believe sorc healers only need roaming mend adjusted along with some changes to their fdorce management would be a good start for seeing how balance is.

 

Madness Sorcs need an adjustment IMO. They should be more like Warlocks in WoW in that they can do better ST dmg less dot spread. Change the dmg dots tick on targets not being hit with force lightning to be about 50% of what they are now, when you hit a target with force lightning the dots tick at 130% of what they do now. This gives move counter play.

 

Lightning Sorcs - Chain lightning proc needs to have it's ICD reduced slightly and Thundering blast should hit harder.

 

Lethality Operative - Backstab should apply/refresh both dots.

 

Concealment Operative - Roll needs to be redesigned so you can give this class more offense.

 

IO Merc - Button Bloat needs reduction

 

Arsenal Merc - I've seen them do really well in yolos and think they're in a strong spot, perhaps get a bit of speed back in their legs?

 

AP PT - Good place.

 

Pyro PT - flamethrower needs its teeth back.

 

Maras - I think as a whole Maras are also in a good place.

 

Other healers cannot be objectively balanced while Sorcs are so far ahead IMO.

 

Tanks - Need to adjust defensive stats to either deal with dots or help with crits. Guard needs to be proportional to the amount of defensive stats a tank has ( reducing the effectiveness of dps tanks as both tank and dps, they can pick one. )

Please Jugs arer overplayed because they are FOTY classes. Dam near 3 lives last thing they need is a buff. Their bloody heal should be limited like rest of DPS to 15% of health and make the visual que that pops up a lot more visible so noobs will see it and stop hitting them.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Kazz_Devlin

[Kazz_Devlin]

Its a matter of context, do i think Juggs are OP, no, i dont. but in a 1V1 encounter they have amazing survivability tools. Does this make them OP, no. Does it make them darn hard to kill 1V1, heck yes.

Skank tanks are another matter... but its moot so.

 

as long as you have a class than can 1v1 all others it unbalances the game. There is a reason we have HVY weight fights and light weight fights and not hvy vs light wieght. The reason Jug is so popular is any brain dead noob can log on to a jug and put out enough DPS and survive gobs of dps and be effective i.e easy mode. When players are winning due to the spec of their class and not skilled play it unbalances the game. PVP population was so bad bioware forced PVErs into it to get a companion hoping it would draw a few in and instead it turned people off cause it was a complete joke to watch a jug requiring 3 peeps to kill him now if it was a tank class I might see it DPS is another story They should be just like all the rest of the DPS classes huge DPS no defenses or little to no.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Kazz_Devlin

[AlrikFassbauer]

Rage needs more sustained dmg as well, and increasing force lash (the force dmg attached to slash, cyclone, and riposte) and force crush dmg would be a good way to get there without increasing their burst.

 

Vengeance needs its ravage damage back.

 

I believe sorc healers only need roaming mend adjusted along with some changes to their fdorce management would be a good start for seeing how balance is.

 

Madness Sorcs need an adjustment IMO. They should be more like Warlocks in WoW in that they can do better ST dmg less dot spread. Change the dmg dots tick on targets not being hit with force lightning to be about 50% of what they are now, when you hit a target with force lightning the dots tick at 130% of what they do now. This gives move counter play.

 

Lightning Sorcs - Chain lightning proc needs to have it's ICD reduced slightly and Thundering blast should hit harder.

 

Lethality Operative - Backstab should apply/refresh both dots.

 

Concealment Operative - Roll needs to be redesigned so you can give this class more offense.

 

IO Merc - Button Bloat needs reduction

 

Arsenal Merc - I've seen them do really well in yolos and think they're in a strong spot, perhaps get a bit of speed back in their legs?

 

AP PT - Good place.

 

Pyro PT - flamethrower needs its teeth back.

 

Maras - I think as a whole Maras are also in a good place.

 

Other healers cannot be objectively balanced while Sorcs are so far ahead IMO.

 

Tanks - Need to adjust defensive stats to either deal with dots or help with crits. Guard needs to be proportional to the amount of defensive stats a tank has ( reducing the effectiveness of dps tanks as both tank and dps, they can pick one. )

 

Any time I read responses like this, I ask myself :

 

Because of the lack of Gunslingers being mentioned,

do people believe Gunslingers are balanced,

or do they simply not play them and therefore don't post about them because they have so little experience with them ?

 

I tend to think of the first answer,

but on the other hand the devs called the current meta in one post a "high mobility" meta. And they added high mobility to every class, but with different outcomes (compare HO with Gunslinger's roll, for example).

[Jadescythe]

Any time I read responses like this, I ask myself :

 

Because of the lack of Gunslingers being mentioned,

do people believe Gunslingers are balanced,

or do they simply not play them and therefore don't post about them because they have so little experience with them ?

 

I tend to think of the first answer,

but on the other hand the devs called the current meta in one post a "high mobility" meta. And they added high mobility to every class, but with different outcomes (compare HO with Gunslinger's roll, for example).

 

It's hard to balance the class style. Ranged classes are typically meant to kite and position as a primary defense. The Sniper/GS class can't do either of those well because of the cover mechanic. Any class that is meant to stay in one spot is going to be extremely bad in a deathmatch environment without some sort of coordinated team ot protect them and keep the enemy in sight. It can function in the right objective environments because there are strategic points to setup where you know the enemy will be required to go. It doesn't help that their only burst spec is literally less than worthless now, so maybe give Marksman a DPS boost so they can even be remotely viable in PvE again as well.

[Jadescythe]

Please Jugs arer overplayed because they are FOTY classes. Dam near 3 lives last thing they need is a buff. Their bloody heal should be limited like rest of DPS to 15% of health and make the visual que that pops up a lot more visible so noobs will see it and stop hitting them.

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Lhancelot]

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

I never recognize any graphic aonomalies when juggs use their self heal. I always have to watch their buff bar which can be tedious in the midst of fighting them.

 

They pop heals, and saber reflect which I try to counter, all the while trying to kite them, damage them, and keep them from hitting me.

 

I suggest at the very least when a jugg pops ED, that a huge bulwark shield surrounds them with laughing troll faces on it dancing around daring you to hit them, that way it's easier to identify when they begin using ED.

 

Good juggs in regs are monsters and anyone that denies it are not being truthful. Even before skank tanks they were quite strong in regs.

 

I hear they are awful in ranked, but see tons of them there particularly in yolos, so if they are so awful why do so many people play them? Even season stats show how they are terrible in ranked, so I can't explain that.

 

People should be honest about the class but both sides of the argument want to point out the worst or best case scenarios for the jugg, depending on if they want it nerfed or buffed.

 

I think juggs are fine.

 

The only hoopla I hear is when juggs skanktank in yolos, that seems to upset people. And, that's why I am surprised that they are said to be bad in ranked, because everytime I been in a group with a jugg skank, we win.

[Savej]

8v8 has more variety and more unpredictability; it has the widest variety of player skill, commitment and gear. So a good player can do well with anything if he happens to be on the team with tanks and heals fighting against an 8-man pre full of 7-year-old Cub Scout's moms that all happen to be stoned. And the game mode is forgiving - you can die over and over and still do damage and score objectives and feel good about your contributions. But 8v8 is not remotely balanced.

[Kabaroth]

The Visual cue for a Jugg/guardians ED is pretty obvious. They become super shiny.

[Jadescythe]

I never recognize any graphic aonomalies when juggs use their self heal. I always have to watch their buff bar which can be tedious in the midst of fighting them.

 

They pop heals, and saber reflect which I try to counter, all the while trying to kite them, damage them, and keep them from hitting me.

 

I suggest at the very least when a jugg pops ED, that a huge bulwark shield surrounds them with laughing troll faces on it dancing around daring you to hit them, that way it's easier to identify when they begin using ED.

 

Good juggs in regs are monsters and anyone that denies it are not being truthful. Even before skank tanks they were quite strong in regs.

 

I hear they are awful in ranked, but see tons of them there particularly in yolos, so if they are so awful why do so many people play them? Even season stats show how they are terrible in ranked, so I can't explain that.

 

People should be honest about the class but both sides of the argument want to point out the worst or best case scenarios for the jugg, depending on if they want it nerfed or buffed.

 

I think juggs are fine.

 

The only hoopla I hear is when juggs skanktank in yolos, that seems to upset people. And, that's why I am surprised that they are said to be bad in ranked, because everytime I been in a group with a jugg skank, we win.

 

Juggs are balanced very well right now. They aren't ridiculously easy to play, have the CDs to survive having to jump in the middle of the enemy team, but have plenty of counter play from other classes. I've only played Vig/Veng without skanking, but if that is an issue, it's the same issue that has always existed. Stop giving guard and tank stance to DPS specs.

 

Jugg is a bad yolo class because PT and Mara both do the DPS role better and PTs are better skanks. I'd rather be able to insta burst one of the enemies than survive an extra couple seconds. From a Veng perspective, you don't get the DoT spread in 4v4 like you do in 8v8 where the whole enemy team seems to be humping each other, waiting for your Vigilant Thrust

[Ruhun]

The Visual cue for a Jugg/guardians ED is pretty obvious. They become super shiny.

They completely fall apart without ED, especially Rage.

[Lhancelot]

The Visual cue for a Jugg/guardians ED is pretty obvious. They become super shiny.

 

weird, maybe my old eyes miss this cue, lol.

[Ruhun]

weird, maybe my old eyes miss this cue, lol.

 

Jugs shine a very bright red, Guardians shine blue.

 

I use Roar and Pred to run, if they leap I Camo.

It usually works with these FOTM Jugs. They tear like tissue paper.

[Kabaroth]

weird, maybe my old eyes miss this cue, lol.

 

It can be difficult to spot sometimes if you arent looking for it with all the other "light show" effects going on.

[Lhancelot]

It can be difficult to spot sometimes if you arent looking for it with all the other "light show" effects going on.

 

Yeah, I know for a fact I get distracted by all the showering lights and sparkles in combat. I actually have tried to figure out a way to reduce all the flares and shinies through the options but never could reduce it without making the graphics look stupid.

[Papazmurf]

I hear they are awful in ranked, but see tons of them there particularly in yolos, so if they are so awful why do so many people play them? Even season stats show how they are terrible in ranked, so I can't explain that.

 

I liked your whole response but I found this tidbit very interesting. It goes against the conventional wisdom of try hard PVPers that people would play a class in ranked that doesn't give them the best chance to win (when compared to PT and Mara for melee [overall this is seen in a lesser degree with all classes, I.E. bringing Merc healers and Snipers to ranked matches]). I think you see the ranked stats for juggs the way they are because people enjoy playing the class and story wise both Guardian and Juggs are probably the most Star Wars class you can roll so you end up with more of the class from the get go.

 

It is my belief that the majority of players don't re-roll to FOTM just to be good at ranked or even regs. I think all Jedi/Sith classes have high base numbers due to the theme of the game and when the number crunchers and in game meta show certain classes faring better than others, some elite players roll those classes to maximize odds of winning. When I first started doing ranked, I just did it. I didn't think about what class was best for it and I'd wager the majority players did the same.

 

While I believe the conversations on these forums are accurate, balance tends to only really come into play with elite players in ranked environments. You can play any class in regs and do well if you know what you're doing.

[AlrikFassbauer]

weird, maybe my old eyes miss this cue, lol.

 

Jugs shine a very bright red, Guardians shine blue.

 

What if someone has some sort of red colour blindness ?

[Floplag]

I liked your whole response but I found this tidbit very interesting. It goes against the conventional wisdom of try hard PVPers that people would play a class in ranked that doesn't give them the best chance to win (when compared to PT and Mara for melee [overall this is seen in a lesser degree with all classes, I.E. bringing Merc healers and Snipers to ranked matches]). I think you see the ranked stats for juggs the way they are because people enjoy playing the class and story wise both Guardian and Juggs are probably the most Star Wars class you can roll so you end up with more of the class from the get go.

 

It is my belief that the majority of players don't re-roll to FOTM just to be good at ranked or even regs. I think all Jedi/Sith classes have high base numbers due to the theme of the game and when the number crunchers and in game meta show certain classes faring better than others, some elite players roll those classes to maximize odds of winning. When I first started doing ranked, I just did it. I didn't think about what class was best for it and I'd wager the majority players did the same.

 

While I believe the conversations on these forums are accurate, balance tends to only really come into play with elite players in ranked environments. You can play any class in regs and do well if you know what you're doing.

 

With respect, thats exactly why people re-roll FOTM. To give themselves an advantage and better chance to win, otherwise everyone would simply play what they like and there would be no FOTM phenomenon. You would not see the influx of new Sorcs, or Sins, or whatever the recent FOTMs have been right after each balance pass, but we have absolutely observed that in this game and pretty much any other ive ever played. It doesnt matter if the topic is ranked or regs, the intent is the same, only which classes you might roll would vary.

[Anishor]

I never recognize any graphic aonomalies when juggs use their self heal. I always have to watch their buff bar which can be tedious in the midst of fighting them.

 

They pop heals, and saber reflect which I try to counter, all the while trying to kite them, damage them, and keep them from hitting me.

 

I suggest at the very least when a jugg pops ED, that a huge bulwark shield surrounds them with laughing troll faces on it dancing around daring you to hit them, that way it's easier to identify when they begin using ED.

 

Good juggs in regs are monsters and anyone that denies it are not being truthful. Even before skank tanks they were quite strong in regs.

 

I hear they are awful in ranked, but see tons of them there particularly in yolos, so if they are so awful why do so many people play them? Even season stats show how they are terrible in ranked, so I can't explain that.

 

People should be honest about the class but both sides of the argument want to point out the worst or best case scenarios for the jugg, depending on if they want it nerfed or buffed.

 

I think juggs are fine.

 

The only hoopla I hear is when juggs skanktank in yolos, that seems to upset people. And, that's why I am surprised that they are said to be bad in ranked, because everytime I been in a group with a jugg skank, we win.

 

Every class can dominate regs, and we're talking about dps, except pyro PT ><. Of course all this talk is pretty pointless since they haven't mentioned class balance in the last 3-4 producer streams.