To all the people who say premades are ruining pvp ...

[wepeel]

I can honestly say this, If this isn't fixed, i'll move on with my friends and guildies to a game more challenging and more group friendly.

 

A great loss to the game, I'm sure. Probably a lot of the pugs you and your "true MMO players" rolled back in the day felt something similar.

[DarthOvertone]

This past week's PvP was the absolute worst I've ever experienced in game. It was so bad that I couldn't even move myself to login over the weekend. To make matters worse, I didn't even get one Huttball pop all last week.

 

What I'm quickly learning about SWTOR since 4.3 is that I don't really like the game as much as I thought I did. When you really break it down It's mostly been there, done that for me.

 

What has become clear is that the enjoyment I find in game is more about hanging out online with my brother or some friends. Whatever PvP game I engage in is just a backdrop and nothing more to that social aspect of things.

Edited April 18, 2016 by DarthOvertone

[MasterYODAve]

A great loss to the game, I'm sure. Probably a lot of the pugs you and your "true MMO players" rolled back in the day felt something similar.

 

The pugs complaining because they get wrecked all the time have no idea what i'm talking about. Being qued with mostly bads while beating on other bads in a solo or mostly solo environment is very boring and terribly unchallenged. Bad pugs who just get wrecked all the time are never bored, their just mad.

 

In two weeks, I haven't had a single good or competitive 8 man match. No more double IBL, Greased Hutts, Death Smile premades. Matches that truly challenged good players are gone. Most of the good players in these respectable guilds are also gone or at least not playing much anymore as you don't see them anymore.

 

It's no sweat either way. If it's fixed, we'll likely stay awhile. If it's not, we'll play very casually and pick up other games. But don't sit here and cry because of premades in an MMO environment. The formula for success is very easy. google the game and the class and learn about it. Youtube and watch elite players who stream their game and find out what they do. Get in a match and do something even remotely respectable and then reach out to a guild to get invited. Once in the guild, Q with the guild and do what MMOs are designed to do, play together in mutual cooperation to achieve success and greatness.

 

Even now, after the gear cost nerfs and everything else, most pugs don't have crystals in their weapons, no augs, no pvp gear, little to no expertise. It's so easy to play this game. They do nothing to be good or to contribute and all they do is cry. No sympathy here.

 

~Yoda~

[Savej]

This is the joke of jokes. Trying to make the case in an MMO game that solo play is better than group play is laughable. If that is what you really want, then you need to find a new game. If the Devs give you that, all true MMO players, regardless of skill, will move on, especially with a game like this that is years old and broken.

 

I'm GM of RBL on SL. Been qing solo with guildies since everything broke. I still win most of my matches. Sometimes I get in matches with friends and guildies and sometimes I don't. Only difference now, is I never play against good teams. This nerf is like parental controls to PVP and to an MMO game.

 

The games now are unchallenging and boring. Ranked is ok, but it's been broke for years and is more broken now then ever before. Truth is players that get wrecked all the time need to do some google and youtube searches and learn how to get better. This game is not hard and playing PVP at a respectable level is so easy its silly.

 

I can honestly say this, If this isn't fixed, i'll move on with my friends and guildies to a game more challenging and more group friendly. I never saw pugs complaining before the patch when they were getting win after win off the backs of my guild. You want to dumb it down and remove all skill, rename it Star Wars Legos and get a joystick control. Give me a break.

 

~Yoda~

 

Which pops more in ranked? Solo or Group? (Solo is much more popular)

Why is Solo q not more popular? Because some (enough) people have figured out how to group q in it.

 

Wanting to q solo doesn't make you asocial - you're still playing with and against other people, it's still a group activity.

 

I personally have no issue with people playing with friends in this game. But I do absolutely have an issue with forcing people to q with groups (doing that kills qs). I also have an issue with letting people start a game with an unfair advantage. When this q'ing system that SWTOR copied from Wow was originally implemented no one knew how much of an advantage q'ing with friends and voice would grant - it even took awhile for that to be apparent to most people. SWTOR chose to copy Wow's system without fixing it because they didn't know any better. That does not make it right. The current system basically allows the NY Yankees to wear headsets and q all day against pugs that have people in it that just learned to throw the ball and some that learned to do that wrong (who won't learn a thing from the stomping that is about to ensue). I don't care what you've gotten used to or what types of players you hate, in any discussion about fairness you've got the 1st grader's dunce cap on if you think that's how gaming and fun are supposed to work.

[DsevenO]

The words of someone who never actually had to put up with the frustration and hopelessness of facing premades day after day, month after month. As long as it gives fair odds of an even matchup and the other warzones don't, I'd rather play nothing but OPG.

 

Funny how the repetition of one warzone is now popping up as a luxury problem for people who have had their farming routine upset by not being able to stack the deck in their favour from the start.

 

Spoken like someone who presumes to know what other people's pvp experiences have been. As far as a "farming routine", idk *** you're talking about; I solo queue. If you enjoy playing the same *********** wz over, and over, and over, because you're too much of a ***** to face a premade, you have at it. You'll be playing by yourself soon enough.

[cool-dude]

I don't like fighting premade groups in pvp, but I do not like being able to group up for pvp more. This is an mmo, and a big part of being able to stay interested in this game is being able to group up with people whether it is in pvp or pve. There aren't enough rewards, arenas, or warzones for me to give a damn about pvp outside of getting my daily or weekly. But, If I can join a pvp group, I can enjoy myself no matter how many matches I play.

 

The ability to group up for stuff is important to me in an mmo.

Edited April 18, 2016 by cool-dude

[kweassa]

The ability to group up for stuff is important to me in an mmo.

 

The ability to keep fighting conditions fair, is more important than anything else in PVP.

[Tsetso]

The ability to keep fighting conditions fair, is more important than anything else in PVP.

 

If you're interested in fair games play MOBAs. MMos are all about guilds, friends, factions, etc.

[MasterYODAve]

Spoken like someone who presumes to know what other people's pvp experiences have been. As far as a "farming routine", idk *** you're talking about; I solo queue. If you enjoy playing the same *********** wz over, and over, and over, because you're too much of a ***** to face a premade, you have at it. You'll be playing by yourself soon enough.

 

I meant solo regs in the context of my last post. My point is that players that group up and work together should have an advantage. I completely agree with people who say they hate solo qing and playing premades in reg warzones. I do to. This is why I don't do it. I formed a guild of like 3 people several years ago. We looked for respectable "not elite" players. We brought many people in who were average or above average at best. We worked with those who were willing to work at improving and work together as a team, and we let go the ones that were not willing to try or take advise. As we grew and had success, we were able to merge with a good PVP guild and acquire other well respected PVP players because of our guild success. I can count on one hand the amount of people that were let go for not being able to play at a respectable level in 3 years.

 

We now have a guild of nearly 500 who are very loyal because a fair percentage of people in the guild were not really all that good when they joined. They were coached up and we took the time to work with them assuming they were willing to listen and work to improve.

 

Myself and other officers help whoever we can in the game. I have spent countless hours at the draining dummy with players who aren't even in my guild giving them advise and teaching them how to play. I have helped anyone who has asked me who had the intent of seriously trying to learn and improve. It is for the good of both our guild and the game to do this.

 

Saying all this, I again say that I do not have sympathy for bad players who do nothing about it but complain. People who don't gear, have zero interest in group or team play, and who don't do any research to learn about the game or their class need to find a new game. Not trying to be a jerk but it's true. An MMO is a team, group, and guild driven game and those who adopt that gaming philosophy will have more success and more fun. If people don't want to be group and team players and play solo that's fine, but don't complain when the guilds and groups in the game run you over.

 

Last point, gear is cheap, there is learning material everywhere online, and your moves now proc most of the time when you should consider using them. The devs have made it very easy to be a respectable player. The littlest of effort will achieve respectability in PVP. Dedication, commitment and practice makes you elite, but there is no legitimate reason why everyone in this game can't be at least respectable in PVP.

 

~Yoda~

[-Bob-]

The ability to keep fighting conditions fair, is more important than anything else in PVP.

 

WHAAAAAAAAAAA It's not fair for me WHAAAAAAAAAA

They have better players WHAAAAAAAAAA They can group with their friends but all i have is a sippy cup WHAAAAAAA

[Krazzorr]

Actually it's about the same for me. I win about 90% of my matches in and now out of a group... so... It's pretty unchanged... I mean I knew that anyways because sometimes I don't have friends on, but to those who lose consistently I would say you should examine the way you play... You could be the reason you lose a lot. I know... tough concept.

[Vashadan]

.... yes, all you people need to know that a lack of communication is ruining PvP, so just look at premades as an extra chance to get better, to learn something and/or to entice others towards a group effort.

If you do not believe me take an example by looking at those responsible for the game itself, and apply that to how much a lack of communication can bring ruin.

So if you que up why not be the first to use the chat and at least say hello. It goes a long way towards making others feel they are in a group, giving ppl the idea of going for a group effort rather than another scoreboard run.

Sure, nobody is always interested in being part of a group effort. Maybe you just had a lousy day and want to vent, you do not care if you will lose the match, all you want is to nuke a few players and be happy about it.

There is tons of ways not to drag your own group down, gear and using your class/spec at least to some degree are a few examples.

The idea of a premade is to a good point physiological, ppl grouping up with the wish to win and making sure to at least have 4 guys or girls communicating throughout the match. Many times a good group of players does it by just "rolling" together, they know what needs to be done and have a good sense of situational awareness but you can be sure they will call for help, incoming enemy's and mark/spot healers.

 

 

I still see premades running every now and then, even with the group que being "broken" as it is but do not hate the players, hate the game. You got options just like any1 else, your fault if you do not want to use them or make an effort to play as if in a premade. Sometimes you get a crappy matchmaking where you can not do much, but even a hopeless match was won just because ppl adapted to the other team and used the map to their advantage...by, guess what, freaking communicating about it.

Besides, going against a premade makes the win just that much sweeter but more than often it is because players communicate...even in an arena it can help, in a warzone it can turn the tide of a match.

Currently the only thing I really like about APG is that it is making ppl use chat more often, even tho there is the occasional mouthpiece but I wish to believe it will teach new and old players to realize how much difference a few words can make....

[wepeel]

I can count on one hand the amount of people that were let go for not being able to play at a respectable level in 3 years.

 

We now have a guild of nearly 500 who are very loyal because a fair percentage of people in the guild were not really all that good when they joined. They were coached up and we took the time to work with them assuming they were willing to listen and work to improve.

 

Myself and other officers help whoever we can in the game. I have spent countless hours at the draining dummy with players who aren't even in my guild giving them advise and teaching them how to play. I have helped anyone who has asked me who had the intent of seriously trying to learn and improve. It is for the good of both our guild and the game to do this.

 

Saying all this, I again say that I do not have sympathy for bad players who do nothing about it but complain.

 

No disrespect intended to you or your guild, but with that much experience of warzones, have you not seen that one player, no matter how long they've trained with dummies, can do little to change the course of a battle where your team is outmatched and the enemy controls the map? A well-coordinated premade can be close to unstoppable for a pug, which leads to the premade dominating the map and the pug being fragmented and constantly having respawning players, i.e. never able to get involved in winnable scenarios. And this doesn't take into account that premades have a more optimized setup, usually containing healers, tanks and burst (currently sorcs, juggs and PTs, with stealthers being very common as well.. you don't see a lot of premades full of snipers, mercs and marauders).

 

With this kind of setup the premade players will get the benefit of class and team synergy, and will therefore seem a lot better than they individually are. Any player who knows what end of the lightsaber to hold will do reasonably well under such circumstances. Similarly, an otherwise skilled (or respectable, as you say) player in opposite circumstances seems worse, as there's very little they can do to change anything or even get the breathing room needed to play their class/role properly.

 

This is also evident in practice. Catch a frequent premade player alone or (rarely) in an outmatched pug, and you'll notice he's not very special on an individual level but gets shut down and dies about as easily as anyone else.

 

Also, though this is everyday life for pug players it seems to come off - as evident in many of the posts here - as totally unacceptable to the premade crowd. To those players it's like they were just faced with the realization that even god-kings can bleed, and threats of leaving the game invariably follow. Just the prospect of being "forced" to as much as queue for solo regs appears unthinkable.

 

With time this stance has been euphemized into an idea of socializing and competition, like "I just want to play with my friends and face tough opposition, I love the challenge, it's no fun stomping pugs", but you never see this mentality except for when something disrupts the regular premade farming routine. When it's faceroll business as usual you don't see premade players come out to complain about how boring it is to win all the time and demand change lest they ragequit.

In pvp and pve alike, most players *want* their farming runs to be quick and free of complications.

Edited April 19, 2016 by wepeel

[wepeel]

WHAAAAAAAAAAA It's not fair for me WHAAAAAAAAAA

They have better players WHAAAAAAAAAA They can group with their friends but all i have is a sippy cup WHAAAAAAA

 

WHAAAAAAAAAAA It's not fair for me WHAAAAAAAAAA

I had to queue for solo regs, no backup WHAAAAAAAAAA Where are my pocket healers, how can I win like this WHAAAAAAA

Edited April 19, 2016 by wepeel

[foxmob]

If you're interested in fair games play MOBAs. MMos are all about guilds, friends, factions, etc.

MMO means literally nothing of what you said. it means there are A LOT of users/players. it doesn't mean you grp or die. the individual game components dictate what is or is not expected. there are more solo quests than grp quests, but the grp quests clearly intend for you to grp. you don't need to be in a guild to fight for your faction. the game designs quests and objectives for both. they even do solo mode dungeons/FPs now. saying "it's all about guilds" is like saying SWTOR is all about space combat. no. it's part of the game that you can do or not do. the same for crafting and playing the GTN. I mean...have at it. it's "part of the MMO" but it's not, nor never was it, a requirement.

 

before you crush me for being a premade whiner, I don't advocate getting rid of premades. that would be stupid. grouping up is part of the game, but so is solo play.

 

if you weren't supposed to solo queue then the option wouldn't exist. if you weren't supposed to 2-4m premade, then the option wouldn't exist. it's very simple to interpolate what is and is not intended for most of this stuff. very clearly, more than 4m premades are not part of the game, but there's an easy way to exploit the system to achieve such "super Qs."

 

finally, please stop telling premade whiners to group up. the only problem with premades is that they tend to be players of similar skill. so the 4 best players often land on the same team every time because they're always grouped. however, the inverse is also true, and I really don't want MORE premades of mediocre and bad players running around in premades.

[Floplag]

There will never be agreement on this matter, the horse is dead, decomposed, skeletal remains that have dried to dust. Those who like premades will never change, those who like solo queue will never accept it. I've come to realize that the reality is that the truth is in the middle.

 

Solo queue, even in regs, is a crapshoot. You take you chances on who and what you might get teamed with, period. 4s or 8s doesn't matter. You leave the match making to chance and chance has a warped sense of humor.

People in teams leave less to chance, its simple logic.

 

Does that create imbalance situations, of course it does. The thing premades do is limit this luck factor. This does not make them invincible, but it certainly gives them and advantage.

 

The part that irritates me regarding premades is that they confuse luck and skill. Playing a premade means you should win unless you are against a better premade or a team of very skilled individual players, it doesnt mean you are better than those players. In fact i would suggest that those who only do premades are not as skilled or at least not playing to their full potential as solo players have to play very differently than those in a team do since we frequently do not have guards or pocket heals as you often do.

 

Solo players... guys, let it go. It is what it is. You choose to queue solo you get what you get. Whether its 7 other solo players are a smattering of duo or full premade players, you left it up to the match making system to put you on the team you got, deal with it.

 

The only other answer is to group up yourself and even the playing field. I think if a number of the very good solo players i know started grouping up and giving the premades a good fight we would find out real fast whos actually good, and who is getting carried.

 

Either way, its part of the game, its fully within the rules, and this is an MMO.

[Ansultares]

No disrespect intended to you or your guild, but with that much experience of warzones, have you not seen that one player, no matter how long they've trained with dummies, can do little to change the course of a battle where your team is outmatched and the enemy controls the map? A well-coordinated premade can be close to unstoppable for a pug, which leads to the premade dominating the map and the pug being fragmented and constantly having respawning players, i.e. never able to get involved in winnable scenarios. And this doesn't take into account that premades have a more optimized setup, usually containing healers, tanks and burst (currently sorcs, juggs and PTs, with stealthers being very common as well.. you don't see a lot of premades full of snipers, mercs and marauders).

When you're heavily outmatched, there are two ways to respond. Either accept it, and ignore the objectives in whatever manner you choose, or give it your best to hold what little you can. For example, in a losing novarre or civil war, even if it takes all eight of you to hold a single node, that's still a victory as compared to letting the premade 3-cap. The premade will be annoyed, even if only slightly. It's as close to a win as you can get.

[Ruhun]

When you're heavily outmatched, there are two ways to respond. Either accept it, and ignore the objectives in whatever manner you choose, or give it your best to hold what little you can. For example, in a losing novarre or civil war, even if it takes all eight of you to hold a single node, that's still a victory as compared to letting the premade 3-cap. The premade will be annoyed, even if only slightly. It's as close to a win as you can get.

 

I usually do that, but when the same premade ends up on the enemy team 8 consecutive times it can get a bit frustrating.

These past few days have been a breath of fresh air, even if I couldn't queue with my friends either.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Ruhun

[sithBracer]

I usually do that, but when the same premade ends up on the enemy team 8 consecutive times it can get a bit frustrating.

These past few days have been a breath of fresh air, even if I couldn't queue with my friends either.

 

Usually if I see the same premade and they are constantly playing broken comps (for example 4 PTs or skank jugg + sorc healer) I just leave the match and get out of rotation with them. I recommend it.

[Ruhun]

Usually if I see the same premade and they are constantly playing broken comps (for example 4 PTs or skank jugg + sorc healer) I just leave the match and get out of rotation with them. I recommend it.

 

Dead queues means I will get the same premade.

When those constant premade matches happen it's a guild queue syncing, so it's 8 of them all the time.

When I drop I just wait and get them again.

[Tsetso]

<snip>.

 

You misunderstood my post. What i meant was that with so many variables in a MMO it's impossible to achieve "fairness".

 

Just look at how many skills are there on all the classes/disciplines add the different ways to gear, add the fact that a good MMO is constantly changing due to new skills tiers of gear, level raise, etc. Now add the matchmaking in the mix and you'll see that "balance" is a myth, unless it's created by the players themselves( meaning grouping ).

 

On the other hand MOBAs have class balance as the most important factor and are fairly static so i was not trolling when suggesting to the poster to play them if balance is so important to him.

 

About "MMOs are about guilds/group/factions" that was just personal opinion - i play MMOs exclusively because of the social aspect. If i want to play compettive pvp i'd play RTS/MOBAs/FPS but that's just me.

[sithBracer]

Dead queues means I will get the same premade.

When those constant premade matches happen it's a guild queue syncing, so it's 8 of them all the time.

When I drop I just wait and get them again.

 

Sounds like a dead server or not a good time to queue. In those cases, I would just turn off the game and go do something else.

[Ruhun]

Sounds like a dead server or not a good time to queue. In those cases, I would just turn off the game and go do something else.

 

It doesn't happen during prime time.

Sometimes I just have bad luck and no one is on when I get home from work, so it's just pug hunting season.

[wepeel]

When you're heavily outmatched, there are two ways to respond. Either accept it, and ignore the objectives in whatever manner you choose, or give it your best to hold what little you can. For example, in a losing novarre or civil war, even if it takes all eight of you to hold a single node, that's still a victory as compared to letting the premade 3-cap. The premade will be annoyed, even if only slightly. It's as close to a win as you can get.

 

Yes I'm aware. With a not-so-bad pug, pulling something like that off vs a premade can feel a little bit like a win. My point was that an individual player, no matter how skilled, can't turn such a game around, or even get a chance to create much of anything with his skill.

[-Bob-]

There will never be agreement on this matter, the horse is dead, decomposed, skeletal remains that have dried to dust. Those who like premades will never change, those who like solo queue will never accept it. I've come to realize that the reality is that the truth is in the middle.

 

So much of this ^^

I can't take these conversations seriously anymore, people just arguing the same points back and forth. It's pretty pointless.