Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[xkcurtisx]

One good step Bioware took was to scale up the old content, because EV and KP at HM does make players learn mechanics and follow them. Raiding is far from dead and far from a niche population, plenty of pugging going on fleet, but the ops are getting dated and there are so many areas that should be expanded, Manaan is begging for an op.

 

EV and KP teaches you nothing, there are little to no mechanics there that can't be just ignored.

 

For that matter instance the world bosses and turn them into single boss ops

 

No just no. Either do a proper OPS or nothing. For example Monolith was a joke, and it also forced raiders to kill a worldboss. Timesink...

[TralyanSavo]

I am pissed because the previous content cycle included a raid or two in each expansion. Each raid is several months worth of content that I can play over and over again. Each "story" chapter with 4.X is roughly 45 minutes of content.

 

I am also pissed because the lack of new raids has entirely demolished my community in this game. Before 4.0, we had no issues with raid attendance and had strong relationships with other guilds who raided. All of those people are either entirely gone or rarely log on anymore because there's no reason to log into this game anymore.

[commanderwar]

James Ohlen has confirm that there is more group content coming

If you do not know who he is, James Ohlen is the game director at swtor

and he tweeted this

Attending the end of week @SWTOR review. Exciting stuff for fans who feel we aren't doing enough for PvP and co-op content fans

Edited April 11, 2016 by commanderwar

[Toraak]

Doesn't really bother me, I am fine with the OPS we have. But I guess if all you do in the game is run raids, then yeah, you will get bored. But it is an mmorpg, you are not meant to just do one thing, you are meant to enjoy the game by doing a bit of everything . Of course its your choice, but it will just kill the game for you.

 

People are talking about the state of the game thats going to go down in players etc. Fact is they gained a boost of playerbase at the release of Kotfe. People who might not play all the time, but return every month for a new chapter.

 

The problem is, The servers haven't really gained anything from all these players that they claim they've gotten from the launch of Kotfe. The servers are at the same level as they were before the expansions. Fleet's have the same number of instances, planet instances haven't increased at all. These people that they claim to have brought in, are they even playing the game more then the 1 playthrough for each chapter a month? If they are i'm not seeing it in an increase in people, it's staying the same or going down.

 

I've seen my guild on harb go down from 3 Ops teams down to 1. (the one i'm in) and the others have all gone back to WoW because of lack of end game Group content (Operations). Now this is only from my experience, but if other guilds are having the same issues losing numerous Ops teams adds up to many subs lost.

 

To me that's not a good thing for the game. We need more then just story to keep this game going. Story is only one part of that. without new content for PvP, GSF, and raids at a reasonable pace, people will continue to look elsewhere for the type of game they want to play, which means less subs for Swtor.

[Kimyrielle]

I am super happy about finally seeing a MMO putting a strong focus somewhere else than raids. I am a longterm MMO player, but raids have never done anything for me. Personally? I find them boring. They are just scripted fights that play out 100% the same every single time you attempt them and are difficult only because of obscure (and often silly) mechanics and zero margin for error in execution. For some reason raiders think because they invested time into practicing the step-by-step recipe long enough to beat these otherwise super boring fights it makes them the elite of MMO players. But what they are doing is in end not fundamentally different from grinding trash mobs in a Korean grinder - doing the same thing over and over until you get what you want. Except that grinders usually don't develop a sense of entitlement to have exclusive access to every single desirable item in the game, raiders often do - resulting in a toxic relationship between the raiders and the 90% of the players that don't do them.

 

I would be absolutely thrilled if SWTOR would keep the direction it is evolving now. The one gripe I have with the new content is that it can't be reasonably played with friends at all. While I might dislike raids, this is still a MMO and I would like to enjoy it with friends. The next storyline I would hope to cater to be played either solo or in a small group (so that all group members would get credit for advancing the quest). Otherwise I have never been happier with the game.

[VegasTheLost]

They are just scripted fights that play out 100% the same every single time you attempt them and are difficult only because of obscure (and often silly) mechanics.... .... doing the same thing over and over until you get what you want.

 

Please tell me how you enjoy repeating differently KotFE on all of your alts.

[Kimyrielle]

Please tell me how you enjoy repeating differently KotFE on all of your alts.

 

I play it only with two (one Pub, one Imp) at this time. I will play it with another pair later on when they content will feel fresh again. If I played it will all my characters at once it would indeed feel as grindy as any raid.

[peter_plankskull]

I am super happy about finally seeing a MMO putting a strong focus somewhere else than raids. I am a longterm MMO player, but raids have never done anything for me. Personally? I find them boring.

 

Someone cue me in here... but why does everyone have this sort of vendetta against raiders and PVPers players? This is my first MMO forum and I don't know if its unique to SWTOR since it has a story focus, but it seems like raiders is Ganondorf, The Shredder, Aku, and Palpatine of this game.

 

I realize that people have different interests, but just because you don't like that particular interest doesn't me it should specifically be gone or not updated in the game either. The ONLY way SWTOR is evolving at the moment is a one size fits all story, and its more of a devolution of the game than anything.

 

 

They are just scripted fights that play out 100% the same every single time you attempt them and are difficult only because of obscure (and often silly) mechanics and zero margin for error in execution. For some reason raiders think because they invested time into practicing the step-by-step recipe long enough to beat these otherwise super boring fights it makes them the elite of MMO players. But what they are doing is in end not fundamentally different from grinding trash mobs in a Korean grinder - doing the same thing over and over until you get what you want. Except that grinders usually don't develop a sense of entitlement to have exclusive access to every single desirable item in the game, raiders often do - resulting in a toxic relationship between the raiders and the 90% of the players that don't do them.

 

Scripted or not, the raids in a MMO almost NEVER go exactly the same way, as you have 7 and sometimes 15 other different factors to input into the normal equation. While in a way they are simply grinding doing the same thing as trash mobs, it is much more complicated doing so, therefore more challenging and more rewarding. Accomplishing a harder task that takes commitment is far better imo than one easily earned. So in a way, yes raiders are the "elite" of the game, however only in a PVE sense.

 

Please also state how grinders don't grow a sense of entitlement either. I use to play POTCO, back then we only had a single legendary weapon, El patreon, which was simply a cutlass that turned you into a ghost. Only two bosses in the game gave this weapon out, and I spent MANY, MANY, MANY hours grinding for it along with others... and yes... I never did get it.... .... but a lot of entitlement grew from others I plundered with saying they spent weeks/months/ farming it, they deserve it.

 

Yes, some raiders are have a false sense of entitlement, as do grinders, as do PVPers, as does activity in the game imaginable, however that isn't everyone.

 

I would be absolutely thrilled if SWTOR would keep the direction it is evolving now. The one gripe I have with the new content is that it can't be reasonably played with friends at all. While I might dislike raids, this is still a MMO and I would like to enjoy it with friends. The next storyline I would hope to cater to be played either solo or in a small group (so that all group members would get credit for advancing the quest). Otherwise I have never been happier with the game.

 

The ONLY "evolution" of the game, is simply a one size fits all approach, and if anything, that's a devolution. GSF, raids, group content, and tons of bugs roam the game at the moment, and what little love PVP has received is incredibly broken, and crafting is meh. While this is a story focused MMO, its still overall a MMO, and I believe a MMO should cater to all groups of players having a plethora of activities, and further building up on these activities, especially if previously they invested heavily into these activities.

 

While I'm glad you enjoy the game, do remember its a MMO, and please don't bash everyone for the mistakes of a few.

[Max_Killjoy]

We need raiders for the same reason we need all other sorts of players.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8840005#post8840005

[JennyFlynn]

Someone cue me in here... but why does everyone have this sort of vendetta against raiders and PVPers players? This is my first MMO forum and I don't know if its unique to SWTOR since it has a story focus, but it seems like raiders is Ganondorf, The Shredder, Aku, and Palpatine of this game.

 

I can't speak for ALL MMO forums but the ones I've been to aside of this one (WoW & RIFT), there's always this constant 'war' between PvE/casuals, raiders and PvP'ers. All think their niche is the holy grail of the game and thus the other 2 don't deserve updates and dev attention.

 

I realize that people have different interests, but just because you don't like that particular interest doesn't me it should specifically be gone or not updated in the game either. The ONLY way SWTOR is evolving at the moment is a one size fits all story, and its more of a devolution of the game than anything.

While I don't care for raiding nor PvP in this game, I do agree both should be maintained and updated equally (when possible) to other aspects of the game. To simply drop the ball on one of them seems like a kick in the gut. I don't raid in this game but based on my own raiding experiences elsewhere I'm quite certain that KotFE and old content isn't enough to really sustain those who's main focus is raids or rather here, OPs.

[ivanhedgehog]

I dont like PVP, but I understand that pvpers are part of this game and their patronage is important for keeping it a profitable, going concern. Same for RP. I want to see all the communities that make swtor go do well, because that keeps me in the game I like to play. I want new planets, raids, warzones and stations. I want new events, competition seasons and places to gather. Sure, there are some pvpers that are ******s, some raiders also. some rpers that lean in that direction also. Any group has good and bad people. Before we start gloating that some other group is packing it up and moving on, realize that we need these people for our game to continue to exist.

I would love to see some neutral stations pop up with small quest hubs and open pvp arenas that we can face off against our friends in. Maybe a bar fight pvp zone. maybe a coop heroic. It would make the galaxy a bigger place and get people off the fleets and doing things.

Edited April 11, 2016 by ivanhedgehog

[Max_Killjoy]

Someone cue me in here... but why does everyone have this sort of vendetta against raiders and PVPers players? This is my first MMO forum and I don't know if its unique to SWTOR since it has a story focus, but it seems like raiders is Ganondorf, The Shredder, Aku, and Palpatine of this game.

 

I realize that people have different interests, but just because you don't like that particular interest doesn't me it should specifically be gone or not updated in the game either. The ONLY way SWTOR is evolving at the moment is a one size fits all story, and its more of a devolution of the game than anything.

 

In part, it's backlash against a toxic, self-absorbed, entitlement "leet" minority segment of the Operations-focused part of the playerbase, who will insist that the ONLY reason to EVER play an MMO, and that if you're not either playing "endgame" or working towards "endgame", then you're a useless scrub leach who should be playing Angry Birds or Farmville instead of taking up space in an MMO.

 

In part, it's a certain minority cross-section of the rest of the playerbase who are just being toxic for their own various "reasons".

[Kimyrielle]

Someone cue me in here... but why does everyone have this sort of vendetta against raiders and PVPers players? This is my first MMO forum and I don't know if its unique to SWTOR since it has a story focus, but it seems like raiders is Ganondorf, The Shredder, Aku, and Palpatine of this game.

 

Experience. Normally if a so-called "casual" questions that raiders should exclusively get all good items in the game and/or are the most important group in a game etc, the response isn't nearly as polite and constructive as yours.

 

I realize that people have different interests, but just because you don't like that particular interest doesn't me it should specifically be gone or not updated in the game either.

 

Agreed. I am not totally against them adding more raids down the road (I can't complain about most MMOs not catering at all to my interest if I not willing to let other groups have a piece of the cake either), I am just against making them the sole focus of everything "endgame" as they did for the first couple years of this game's lifespan. Remember when every single content update read like "Added: 1 new raid, 2 new Flashpoints, 1 new PvP arena"? If I remember right they didn't add any new planet until Makeb released and I can't remember any planet ever being released as a "free" content update, unlike raids which they released all the time.

Btw, Flashpoints are just small raids - instances stuffed with scripted bosses having silly mechanics. Same thing, just a little less hard to properly execute for their smaller group size.

In the end...honestly? They still have so much catch-up work to do in terms of content for the rest of us that they'd probably need to add more story content for 2-3 years before they could add a raid again. Not saying they should actually do that, but to get back on even terms in terms of attention, they'd need to. Just to put the raiders' complaints about currently not getting new raids into perspective.

 

Scripted or not, the raids in a MMO almost NEVER go exactly the same way, as you have 7 and sometimes 15 other different factors to input into the normal equation. While in a way they are simply grinding doing the same thing as trash mobs, it is much more complicated doing so, therefore more challenging and more rewarding. Accomplishing a harder task that takes commitment is far better imo than one easily earned. So in a way, yes raiders are the "elite" of the game, however only in a PVE sense.

 

Yes, as I said, raids are hard only because it's difficult to make 8/16 people execute the required steps in exact unison. Other than figuring out the silly scripted mechanics in the first place of course, but that's what most raiders use YouTube for anyway. There is nothing "elite" about raiding, like grinding it just takes time. That being said, I am not going to tell you what sort of content to enjoy. In an ideal world, there would be content for all of us and we all would get nice stuffz as a reward. In reality we're competing for the devs' limited resources, for I don't think they can reasonable develop a meaningful number of raids -and- a meaningful number of story episodes at the same time.

 

While I'm glad you enjoy the game, do remember its a MMO, and please don't bash everyone for the mistakes of a few.

 

As I said above, I want this game to allow me to play all the content in a group if I want to. My (one) gripe with the story content is that it basically forces you to solo it (you get discouraged from playing it in a group by getting no credit for the episodes you didn't start yourself). I might never set my foot into a raid or even a hardmode FP, but I still would like to quest with friends.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Kimyrielle

[ivanhedgehog]

Most of the players even arent in guilds. Most of the guilds do not commit to raiding groups. You are, even if you think your anecdotal evidence is interesting, a part of a small minority. Organized raiding never really adressed more than 10% of the playerbase of nowadays MMORPG players.

 

Compare to that the fact that MMORPGs have at least round about 60% solo players.. and even more. Add to this the other large part of guilds that never raid.. and you talk about a niche gameplay.

 

 

 

Close to noone. A small percentage.

 

 

 

Raids are the main reason for toxic communities. As they demand a high level of contribution and commitment, which creates elitism at the end. Elitism, because raiders think they have to get the best rewards, the most content and the biggest amount of gameplay.. even if they wont even be enough to pay a single raid boss.

 

you can give us a link showing just how small of a percentage of players are in guilds? you didnt just make that up? I ran on a kp story mode last night with 3 new raiders. the tank was a 62 guardian. we wiped a couple of times but so what. we had fun and got to show some new people raiding content. No one was nasty about any of it or got in a rage.Story players are every bit as nasty, underhanded and toxic as any other segment of players. There are good and bad people in any segment of the population,

[jediloki]

This game is over 4 years old at this point. Long term players are going to have characters at max level.

 

I may be in the minority among people who love to raid, but I like the new story content....I might even go so far as to say I love it. I have 8 characters through chapter 12, and planning on running 1-3 more through. But that is do on my own type of gameplay, it does not replace group gameplay. But with each new chapter taking an hour or less to run through, even with 12 characters, that would be 12 hours of game play and done for the month. I can do that in one weekend.

 

Revamping all old end game content to new max level is great, but it is a stop gap. Many people ran these ops at level the 1st time around. Running them over again ad naseum as the only ops level content gets boring.

 

I can say with certainty that no new raid content has effectively killed the guild that I am in now. The people that like to raid have completely lost interest in running the same OPs content over and over. We can't get enough interest in a group of 30+ people who were raiding prior to expansion to run one raid now. The majority of them have started playing WoW again simply because some of the content is new to them now. Most have un-subbed and don't plan to sub again until there is something new to do group content wise.

That has left maybe 2-4 of us logging in to say Hi, and to go do solo content or to find a PUG group to run (if there is one).

 

The story is great, but there HAS to be a balance between solo, group and PvP to keep people interested.

[Ghisallo]

I am super happy about finally seeing a MMO putting a strong focus somewhere else than raids. I am a longterm MMO player, but raids have never done anything for me. Personally? I find them boring. They are just scripted fights that play out 100% the same every single time you attempt them and are difficult only because of obscure (and often silly) mechanics and zero margin for error in execution. For some reason raiders think because they invested time into practicing the step-by-step recipe long enough to beat these otherwise super boring fights it makes them the elite of MMO players. But what they are doing is in end not fundamentally different from grinding trash mobs in a Korean grinder - doing the same thing over and over until you get what you want. Except that grinders usually don't develop a sense of entitlement to have exclusive access to every single desirable item in the game, raiders often do - resulting in a toxic relationship between the raiders and the 90% of the players that don't do them.

 

I would be absolutely thrilled if SWTOR would keep the direction it is evolving now. The one gripe I have with the new content is that it can't be reasonably played with friends at all. While I might dislike raids, this is still a MMO and I would like to enjoy it with friends. The next storyline I would hope to cater to be played either solo or in a small group (so that all group members would get credit for advancing the quest). Otherwise I have never been happier with the game.

 

You create a false choice with your premise. Case in point FFXIV:ARR. The story is just as Epic as Star Wars. You have a specific class story line and an overall Story. It has triumph, tragedy etc. In some ways it is actually better written, but I will grant not 100% voiced over, but then more than a little of our current SWTOR is not voiced over is it? PLUS they introduce new Dungeons and new raids regularly as well. In doing so they have a game that appears to be more successful than SWTOR on most metrics.

 

You can have both, it is not a matter of one or the other from a developers point of view. When that argument is made it is a creation of the player factions engaging in their perennial schoolyard kid fight.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

Most of the players even arent in guilds. Most of the guilds do not commit to raiding groups. You are, even if you think your anecdotal evidence is interesting, a part of a small minority. Organized raiding never really adressed more than 10% of the playerbase of nowadays MMORPG players.

 

Compare to that the fact that MMORPGs have at least round about 60% solo players.. and even more. Add to this the other large part of guilds that never raid.. and you talk about a niche gameplay.

 

 

 

Close to noone. A small percentage.

 

 

 

Raids are the main reason for toxic communities. As they demand a high level of contribution and commitment, which creates elitism at the end. Elitism, because raiders think they have to get the best rewards, the most content and the biggest amount of gameplay.. even if they wont even be enough to pay a single raid boss.

 

There are just as many toxic people in every other playstyle. Playstyle does not create toxicity in games, an over inflated sense of entitlement does and that crosses playstyle lines sorry.

[Theeko]

[Knockerz]

There was a giant experiment in the industry a few years ago...... Wildstar... where they actually centered their design around old school raid centric MMO play. Guess what... it has proven to be non-viable commercially.

 

Which is not to say there will be no raid content in MMOs moving forward, but not all group content must be raids by any stretch. In fact, there is a lot of data that suggests many former raiders have largely abandoned that aspect of MMOs in favor of other content. Not all of course, and certainly some players love raids. My point is.... the broader player base is kind of burned out on the MMO raid format for game play.

 

There is plenty of group play in this game without including the raids. But I acknowledge that people who are into MMOs for the raids are not getting fed well in this MMO, or frankly any MMO in recent years. But there is, and continues to be a lot of great group content in MMOs anyway.

 

AND.. just to close.... the studio has stated they plan more new raids after they are done releasing the KoTFE chapters. They have yet to release any details. I get that patience is in short supply for some MMO players.

 

I would have agree with Andryah. Wildstar pumped millions into an old school style mmorpg, but failed miserably. A lot of people lost their jobs because a few lead developers had a pipe dream of what an mmorpg should have been, which was outdated for the current market.

[Knockerz]

you can give us a link showing just how small of a percentage of players are in guilds? you didnt just make that up? I ran on a kp story mode last night with 3 new raiders. the tank was a 62 guardian. we wiped a couple of times but so what. we had fun and got to show some new people raiding content. No one was nasty about any of it or got in a rage.Story players are every bit as nasty, underhanded and toxic as any other segment of players. There are good and bad people in any segment of the population,

 

It is well publicize. Lotro and WoW developer have made statements about the amount of players that participate in high endgame pvp or pve, raids. I'm not going to look for the link, but on the wow forums a developer or a cm said something similar, in the 10 percentage range. The majority of players don't participate in endgame raids or pvp. For pvp you can do manual calculations in wow based on the number of gladiators for each season. The number of gladiator in wow is always some thing like top 1 percent of all pvp rank players, which you can than work backwards to determine the total number of participation players. Each season the number has decreased until it reached single digits. If pve had a similar percentage based top rank, then you could work backwards and find the total number of characters that are participating in pve.

 

A long time ago, I had data for each pvp season in wow for like 1-7 season that clearly showed pvp participation in arena was in massive decline. That was several years ago like in 2012-2013. I don't have data anymore.

[Knockerz]

You create a false choice with your premise. Case in point FFXIV:ARR. The story is just as Epic as Star Wars. You have a specific class story line and an overall Story. It has triumph, tragedy etc. In some ways it is actually better written, but I will grant not 100% voiced over, but then more than a little of our current SWTOR is not voiced over is it? PLUS they introduce new Dungeons and new raids regularly as well. In doing so they have a game that appears to be more successful than SWTOR on most metrics.

 

You can have both, it is not a matter of one or the other from a developers point of view. When that argument is made it is a creation of the player factions engaging in their perennial schoolyard kid fight.

 

The company determines success based on how much money the game brings in not by what people perceive as successful. The cost of development vs revenue generated.

 

Your case for developing raids does not take into account the cost of development and potential revenue. BW knows what they are doing. It's highly likely they concluded that the cost vs revenue was not favorable for raid compared to story development. It all comes down to money. Can we stop making silly arguments that aren't focus around money, because you are never going to convince management if you can't show them the money.

 

That is part that you raiders don't understand. BW has concluded that further development of raids is not as profitable compared to investing money into other parts of the game or in a completely different game. BW did not come to this conclusion without having solid data from the previous 4 years. Raid development for FFXIV and WoW is still viable, but maybe for swtor it is not.

 

Essentially, what you want is BW to continue to invest money into developing a portion of the game that is no longer as profitable or to lose money. NCSOFT spent extra millions of dollars into Wilstar, but never recovered. At some point, a company needs to cut there losses. I'm not saying BW is losing money by developing raids, but they are the only owns that have access to the data pertaining to player participation, cost of development, and other factors that we the general player base have no access. That is why your arguments are weak. At best you can say you want raids, but to try to make a valid argument for the development of raids without access to BW data is an exercise of futility. You will not convince any one with any power in the development of this game with those arguments.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Knockerz

[dracmor]

That is why your arguments are weak. At best you can say you want raids, but to try to make a valid argument for the development of raids without access to BW data is an exercise of futility.

 

Trying to make a valid argument that BW should not develop new raids without any data is also futile and ignorant.

 

There was a giant experiment in the industry a few years ago...... Wildstar... where they actually centered their design around old school raid centric MMO play. Guess what... it has proven to be non-viable commercially.

 

And then some try to point to Wildstar. Of course, Wildstar had many issues besides the raids that caused it's downfall that get gleefully overlooked here, but even considering their focus on raids: Wildstar went so far hardcore that it would be equivalent to saying that once you hit max level in this game, the only raid available would be 24 man HM ToS. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why this is a bad thing and it has nothing to do with the state of raiding in MMOs in general...

 

BW has concluded that further development of raids is not as profitable compared to investing money into other parts of the game or in a completely different game

 

Please post a link to where this was stated.

 

Or is this just another sad "metrics" opinion? Imagine this: a restaurant comes out with a new BBQ burger and everyone loves it. Then they only sell that burger for a year. Do you think everyone shows up everyday to eat it? Do you think it is as popular a year later as it was when it was new? What would the "metrics" say about this burger?

With no new raids, how can any raiding metric be valid??

 

And finally, as has been stated many, many times: there is zero proof that Bioware cannot develop multiple aspects of the game at the same time, i.e. raids and story without making a profit. ZERO.

[Knockerz]

Trying to make a valid argument that BW should not develop new raids without any data is also futile and ignorant.

 

 

 

And then some try to point to Wildstar. Of course, Wildstar had many issues besides the raids that caused it's downfall that get gleefully overlooked here, but even considering their focus on raids: Wildstar went so far hardcore that it would be equivalent to saying that once you hit max level in this game, the only raid available would be 24 man HM ToS. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why this is a bad thing and it has nothing to do with the state of raiding in MMOs in general...

 

 

 

Please post a link to where this was stated.

 

Or is this just another sad "metrics" opinion? Imagine this: a restaurant comes out with a new BBQ burger and everyone loves it. Then they only sell that burger for a year. Do you think everyone shows up everyday to eat it? Do you think it is as popular a year later as it was when it was new? What would the "metrics" say about this burger?

With no new raids, how can any raiding metric be valid??

 

And finally, as has been stated many, many times: there is zero proof that Bioware cannot develop multiple aspects of the game at the same time, i.e. raids and story without making a profit. ZERO.

 

I did not make any arguments for or against raid development. I only stated that BW made a decision based on their data and goals. There is an old expression. Actions speak louder than words. BW has not publicly stated that any raid is under development otherwise they would have announced it already. What more do you want? Are you really that dense to think that BW will publicly make an announcement saying operation or raid development has ceased or temporary put on hold. No mmorpg company will ever make such a statement due to the marketing and RP problems that would arise. It's better for them to keep quiet and say nothing.

 

It's not just SWTOR, but other mmorpgs I played are shifting away from raid development. WoW and final fantasy are the only two left that continue to focus heavily into raid development.

 

Mark my words. Four months from now BW will say nothing about raid development. Eventually, players who only played swtor for raids will leave or adept and change with swtor.

[VegasTheLost]

It's not just SWTOR, but other mmorpgs I played are shifting away from raid development. WoW and final fantasy are the only two left that continue to focus heavily into raid development.

 

Still WOW and FF are the two most successfull/profitable MMO out there. Now I'm not saying because of the raiding content, however I'm saying that because they aren't just focusing 1 aspect of their game. You think SWTOR is not generating good money? Think about the number of subs(sure can't compete with WOW and FF, but still, there are a lot of people subbed), think about how much money they make from the CM packs/stuff. I don't have data to back this up, but I know that people are buying packs like it's a must.

 

Also you yourself bring in the metrics WOW has regarding raider population. And still, they make new raids. So what if only just 10% plays the raids? That's 10% retained customer. The profitability isn't on this 10%.

[killershrike]

Still WOW and FF are the two most successfull/profitable MMO out there.

 

Even if you meant MMORPG instead of the much broader MMO term, that statement is only partially true.

Lineage 1 still holds the second place.

I couldn't find a ranking for 2015 that included FF or SWTOR, but (at least according to Superdata) in February 2016 SWTOR was in the Top 5, while FF was not.