Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[Tsetso]

Because more people will start to try it. It was NOT targeted for the majority, if the raiders had moved on and it was left untouched, the content will pretty much stay dead. Do you prefer it?

 

Don't try to hijack this thread. If you post stay on topic.

[Slowpokeking]

Don't try to hijack this thread. If you post stay on topic.

 

No, some people here don't quite understand how does MMO work, THIS is why we have this argument.

[IanArgent]

Because more people will start to try it. It was NOT targeted for the majority, if the raiders had moved on and it was left untouched, the content will pretty much stay dead. Do you prefer it?

 

The ops I've tried, they don't need to be any easier combats to be enjoyable. I was wearing a mix of crystal-bought 208 and 216/200 gear, and the combats didn't seem to be particularly hard from a raw difficulty PoV. (they were all Storymode, of course).

 

I recall your arguments now - you wanted to partake of Hardmode mechanics, without having to respect the hardmode mechanics. Except that the whole point of Hardmode+ is that you have to respect the mechanics, instead of being able to power through them.

[SeCKSEgai]

They even said before the new expac hit off that it will be story driven with no new raids. MAYBE we'll get one once the new main story is over, but that's just a maybe.

 

I mean really, why is this still a big thing? I think it was a great idea revamping all new dungeons/raids for max level, made a lot of people come back and even got the eyes of new people.

 

If you just play this game for raids then you're playing the wrong MMO.

 

A story driven focus gets really repetitive when the story is almost identical for every character. When the most noticeable thing about pre-existing operations is that they take longer now that they've scaled for level 65, it also magnifies the repetition for players who have already completed these operations plenty.

 

If the new story content was class specific, it would be interesting to see events unfold from different perspectives. Instead, we basically repeat essentially the same experience with every character often in instances with some buggy triggers. With all the supposed resources devoted to this story experience, I think a lot of us expected more, not more of the same.

[IanArgent]

A story driven focus gets really repetitive when the story is almost identical for every character. When the most noticeable thing about pre-existing operations is that they take longer now that they've scaled for level 65, it also magnifies the repetition for players who have already completed these operations plenty.

 

If the new story content was class specific, it would be interesting to see events unfold from different perspectives. Instead, we basically repeat essentially the same experience with every character often in instances with some buggy triggers. With all the supposed resources devoted to this story experience, I think a lot of us expected more, not more of the same.

 

Per-class content wouldn't get us more content, just more fractured content - we'd have 1/8 the chapters, basically. I think they ought to have more "factional" story elements, myself, but expecting full-up 8 separate class storylines, or even two entirely separate factional storylines (a la Makeb) at this point is a triumph of desire over facts.

[Slowpokeking]

The ops I've tried, they don't need to be any easier combats to be enjoyable. I was wearing a mix of crystal-bought 208 and 216/200 gear, and the combats didn't seem to be particularly hard from a raw difficulty PoV. (they were all Storymode, of course).

 

I recall your arguments now - you wanted to partake of Hardmode mechanics, without having to respect the hardmode mechanics. Except that the whole point of Hardmode+ is that you have to respect the mechanics, instead of being able to power through them.

 

But why so few people are doing them other than EV and KP when there is no priority? This will get even worse if there is new ops and higher tier gears.

 

Being Hardmode doesn't mean it should always stay hard after 4 years, understand this.

[Slowpokeking]

A story driven focus gets really repetitive when the story is almost identical for every character. When the most noticeable thing about pre-existing operations is that they take longer now that they've scaled for level 65, it also magnifies the repetition for players who have already completed these operations plenty.

 

If the new story content was class specific, it would be interesting to see events unfold from different perspectives. Instead, we basically repeat essentially the same experience with every character often in instances with some buggy triggers. With all the supposed resources devoted to this story experience, I think a lot of us expected more, not more of the same.

 

But ops is not much different other than you can do it over and over again and get gears from it.

[IanArgent]

But why so few people are doing them other than EV and KP when there is no priority? This will get even worse if there is new ops and higher tier gears.

 

Being Hardmode doesn't mean it should always stay hard after 4 years, understand this.

 

Not everyone's been here for four years - why can't they get a shot at experiencing the original difficulty level? Favoring the vet at the expense of the new player is a bad idea.

 

I hated that I had no challenge to do the launch flashpoints after I overleveled them - it was just tedious to run through with no chance of damage. That's what you're asking for when you want them to desync the power level from level cap - that they allow people to run through the Ops with no chance of taking damage. That may spin your beanie, but it's a decidedly weird taste.

[Slowpokeking]

Not everyone's been here for four years - why can't they get a shot at experiencing the original difficulty level? Favoring the vet at the expense of the new player is a bad idea.

 

I hated that I had no challenge to do the launch flashpoints after I overleveled them - it was just tedious to run through with no chance of damage. That's what you're asking for when you want them to desync the power level from level cap - that they allow people to run through the Ops with no chance of taking damage. That may spin your beanie, but it's a decidedly weird taste.

 

Because most of the new players don't want to spend so much effort and time just to "catch on" to the new content? If you force them to do it to catch up, it's going to let less new players to enjoy this game.

 

It doesn't matter how did you think, most of the people don't want to spend much efforts on old content, there are the new ones for you to enjoy, this is how MMO goes. You've had your time to taste the challenge during its era, if you missed it it's not anyone else' problem.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

It doesn't matter how did you think, most of the people don't want to spend much efforts on old content, there are the new ones for you to enjoy, this is how MMO goes.

Stop trying to speak for "most of the people"

 

You don't. The fact that hardly anyone ever agrees with what you post in this forum should make this abundantly clear.

 

It's perfectly apparent that you haven't the slightest idea what "most of the people" want.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Stop speaking for "most of the people"

 

You don't. The fact that hardly anyone ever agrees with what you post in this forum should make this abundantly clear.

 

This is pretty much EVERY MMO has been doing so far. Are the developers all morons?

[IanArgent]

Because most of the new players don't want to spend so much effort and time just to "catch on" to the new content? If you force them to do it to catch up, it's going to let less new players to enjoy this game.

 

It doesn't matter how did you think, most of the people don't want to spend much efforts on old content, there are the new ones for you to enjoy, this is how MMO goes. You've had your time to taste the challenge during its era, if you missed it it's not anyone else' problem.

 

It's brand new content to someone logging in for the first time today. You have this weird blind spot that a brand-new player doesn't want to do "old" content, simply because it's been in the game since before they started playing. To them, it doesn't matter that it's been in for 4 years or 4 days - it's still new content.

 

Why should they jump straight to Rav/ToS and skip all the ops beforehand?

 

Or do you think new players are some sort of myth?

Edited April 16, 2016 by IanArgent

[Khevar]

Are the developers all morons?

Why stop there? Are all the people that disagree with you morons, too? You cannot make a coherent argument, so you have to result on insults?

 

STOP TRYING TO SPEAK FOR EVERYONE. You make these bold claims to "benefit the masses"

 

And yet, these masses never post in your threads in support of your argument. Do you want to know why?

 

Because you don't speak for them.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

It's brand new content to someone logging in for the first time today. You have this weird blind spot that a brand-new player doesn't want to do "old" content, simply because it's been in the game since before they started playing. To them, it doesn't matter that it's been in for 4 years or 4 days - it's still new content.

 

Why should they jump straight to Rav/ToS and skip all the ops beforehand?

 

There is a HUGE difference between "try do it" and "spend so much effort and time to do it and must do it to catch up with the new content". To the new players, they want to do what majority are doing and get what they've got, rather than spend so much effort on what the majority had moved on. Remember EVEN at some of these old ops' prime, only a SMALL percent of the people were doing them. Now you are expecting some new players to keep it "alive"?

 

Because most of the people are doing them? Because they drop top tier gear? Because they are related to the new story? Because they don't want to spend months of efforts to get low tier gear? Because it's hard to form a guild/ops group focusing these old content?

[Slowpokeking]

Why stop there? Are all the people that disagree with you morons, too? You cannot make a coherent argument, so you have to result on insults?

 

STOP TRYING TO SPEAK FOR EVERYONE. You make these bold claims to "benefit the masses"

 

And yet, these masses never post in your threads in support of your argument. Do you want to know why?

 

Because you don't speak for them.

 

I can, I gave out data to show what kind of small groups the raiders are among the majority of the players. And all the games are trying to let new players catch up and no longer focus on raid that much, so are they all dumb, or they didn't know what did their players want?

[benmas]

There is a HUGE difference between "try do it" and "spend so much effort and time to do it and must do it to catch up with the new content". To the new players, they want to do what majority are doing and get what they've got, rather than spend so much effort on what the majority had moved on. Remember EVEN at some of these old ops' prime, only a SMALL percent of the people were doing them. Now you are expecting some new players to keep it "alive"?

 

Because most of the people are doing them? Because they drop top tier gear? Because they are related to the new story? Because they don't want to spend months of efforts to get low tier gear? Because it's hard to form a guild/ops group focusing these old content?

 

all raids drop the same tier of gear.

people still do the old raids like EV KP and EC as they drop tokens that people want.

by moving on to new raid content i assume you mean ravagers and ToS, which most people have cleared on at least SM.

it really isn't hard to form an EV or KP HM group, they are easy to do and drop some good tokens.

[Slowpokeking]

all raids drop the same tier of gear.

people still do the old raids like EV KP and EC as they drop tokens that people want.

by moving on to new raid content i assume you mean ravagers and ToS, which most people have cleared on at least SM.

it really isn't hard to form an EV or KP HM group, they are easy to do and drop some good tokens.

 

I'm talking about the situation when NEW ops are coming out.

 

As for the current situation, they all drop the same tier of gears, yes, so it brought problem because they were not designed to be on the same level of difficulty. So EV and KP are so popular and others like DF/DP HM are rarely visited, not because EV and KP are fun, but they drop nice gear with low difficulty.

[benmas]

I'm talking about the situation when NEW ops are coming out.

 

As for the current situation, they all drop the same tier of gears, yes, so it brought problem because they were not designed to be on the same level of difficulty. So EV and KP are so popular and others like DF/DP HM are rarely visited, not because EV and KP are fun, but they drop nice gear with low difficulty.

 

i doubt BW will add a new tier of gear like they did when DF and DP launched as they have moved onto milking kotfe and the CM market. 224 will most likely be the highest gear tier.

 

as for EV and KP dropping gear from ToS, I agree that that is wrong,

 

the way they handled the 186 gear at level 55 was brilliant, it gave players like me at the time something to wish and aim for, and the "i want to be the guy" feel was great. but in 4.0 the players screamed "MAKE ME THAT GUY!!!" and BW did with priority HM ops and such.

[Slowpokeking]

Overall, I think the most difficult part of ops is not the mechanic itself, but to form a group and let these people be willing to spend effort on it. This is also why ops are getting less love, because more and more people prefer soloable content which provide you extra reward with a group. Bioware is going to this direction so we saw the revamped heroics, SF and the upcoming EC. There is nothing wrong with having more story, but it would have been better if the story could be repeatable and got some special achievement to do like GW2's story chapters.

[Tsillah]

ravagers and ToS, which most people have cleared on at least SM.

 

Most people haven't even set foot in these ops, especially ToS. If most people had, there would be new ops.

[benmas]

Most people haven't even set foot in these ops, especially ToS. If most people had, there would be new ops.

 

i joined a 16man ToS run a couple days ago and the group leader insisted on us having done it before. the group filled quickly and all was smooth.

 

the raid has been out for almost a year and a half and with raids being easier than ever to join and run those who have not done ToS soon will if they decide to do raids once they cap there character.

 

as for ravagers I cant really comment as I haven't done this since December of 2015.

 

and for the record I cleared ToS in august and ravagers in April of 2015 during 3.0 on SM difficulty

[PennyAnn]

I've debated replying to this thread several times and I'm finally going to put my two cents in. It seems like this thread started with an almost rhetorical question from someone who doesn't like operations, raiding, or people who raid and wants to poke that community in the eye a little bit. ("Shut up and sit down, raiders!"). This happens with every faction of player in every niche community of the game. "Why do people complain there's no PvP?" ... "Why do people complain there is no new operations?" ... "Why does anybody complain about anything? The game is great and you guys are all just entitled snowflakes..."

 

I think it's really simple and easy to understand, and I will try to relay why without stepping on anybody's toes or speaking for anybody else. Please note that when I speak of "we" I am referring to myself and my experiences with the others I've played this game with for the last 4 years, and that I realize that if I don't even know you I can't say what you like/dislike about this game.

 

The traditional MMO, which many argue is changing and moving away from gear grind and big group coordinated content (and very likely may be), DID used to aim to provide a variety of activities for multiple player styles and tastes. SWTOR was the same way and started out with the same goals, but with the added focus on detailed and unique individual character story that came from the KOTOR base and made it more unique in the MMO world where other games were doing the same things (Leveling, Reputation, Side games, Operations and PvP). It was a great mix for a long time for many people and we got used to it. We liked having a game that was trying to do a little bit of everything because it meant that we had a variety of things to do in the game that were fun and kept us from getting burned out on one thing (very important in the MMO world where people play a game for years and years).

 

Any who have been here since Beta (I'm in that camp with only one short week where I wasn't subscribed to this game) has enjoyed THAT game for 3 years vs. the last year that has offered less variety of things to do and less development in several areas of the game to focus on just the story telling part. Unfortunately that focus also means that nearly no new *group* content is being produced. Those of us that have been playing the game with our friends, families, guild mates and so forth are not being given new content to explore together. Not even new planets. We got used to having that to do together and enjoying it. How is it difficult to understand that it is a part of the game that we miss and want to see returned to our list of options when we log in to play SWTOR?

 

People always throw out the argument that "the developers have said that we wouldn't have new operations" but you know what? Those of us that have been here for long enough have most definitely heard the developers say one thing and then turn around and do the exact opposite, or change what they have stated as fact often enough that we just plain don't believe that anything they say is 100%. Neither should you. Hell, even the developers themselves say almost nothing until they are pretty sure, but then immediately say "nothing is 100%". If THEY don't even say something is certain, how can anybody else?

 

So yes, we're going to keep asking our changeable developers for the content that we want to see in this game, that we've grown to love playing in this game (we're not asking them to do operations in a game that they've never done them in before here!), and hope that more of a MIX of styles is developed again. I don't think anybody is asking them to quit working on story or any other part of the game to develop more group focused content, we want BOTH... and we got used to having at least some of both for a long time. Changing the game so drastically now, and especially in ways that mean we cannot play with our friends, families, guild members, etc. has left many dissatisfied, and I think that will only continue until those players that are used to having more of a mix finally give up and move on to find something new to do elsewhere and leave this game to those who have not yet played it (like almost any other single player focused game when you've "played through" it all once or twice).

 

Of course people who are new to the game are going to have plenty to do and not be bored with it yet. But that's always been true, even when they were at least attempting to satisfy their long term player base with new stuff to do (and a VARIETY of new stuff to do, not just new story but also new raids, new pvp maps, or new side games like GSF, Conquest, etc). Also unhelpful to the situation overall is the obvious conundrum at Bioware that sees them having less money to spend developing the game, staffing their own personnel so that the game CAN develop in several areas at the same time. I do not believe they even have the budget to properly bug test, so the hope that they will go back to working on several areas of the game at a time is somewhat moot. Not to mention they'd have to hire people to develop operations (as that team is pretty much disbanded and the leads of that team aren't even working on Star Wars anymore).

 

So the bottom line is: Those of us who keep hoping for new group content are not likely to get it. BUT... you can't blame us for wanting it when Bioware themselves got us used to that being part of this game. Expect people to ask for new raids until the server shuts down... because despite it being a "niche" community, it IS a community that exists in this game (even now, when there is little reason to be a part of the raiding community in SWTOR). We may trickle down to nearly nothing, but we're still here and hopeful for the mix we got used to playing for 4 years and anxiously awaiting any word that it might some day return.

 

Thank you for indulging me. I realize that the original post probably didn't really intend to start a serious discussion about this (few posts on these forums do), but there's my two cents regardless.

 

GLHF!

[IanArgent]

There is a HUGE difference between "try do it" and "spend so much effort and time to do it and must do it to catch up with the new content". To the new players, they want to do what majority are doing and get what they've got, rather than spend so much effort on what the majority had moved on. Remember EVEN at some of these old ops' prime, only a SMALL percent of the people were doing them. Now you are expecting some new players to keep it "alive"?

 

Because most of the people are doing them? Because they drop top tier gear? Because they are related to the new story? Because they don't want to spend months of efforts to get low tier gear? Because it's hard to form a guild/ops group focusing these old content?

 

I don't understand why people wouldn't want to do the "old" content at regular difficulty; as long as the rewards are meaningful. You really haven't explained that. It's not like you have to do the old content to do the new content, so if people want to do it out of order, they can.

 

The most you've managed to do is imply, somewhat obliquely, that older ops shouldn't be hard because they shouldn't be giving out top-end gear. Which is pure ends-justify-the-means elitism. They're end-game content, they can give out end-game gear. (And it's not that they actually ARE giving out guaranteed endgame gear; going through an Op gets you a chance at endgame gear - which is a crappy artificial-scarcity method to ensure grinding, IMO.)

[Slowpokeking]

I don't understand why people wouldn't want to do the "old" content at regular difficulty; as long as the rewards are meaningful. You really haven't explained that. It's not like you have to do the old content to do the new content, so if people want to do it out of order, they can.

 

The most you've managed to do is imply, somewhat obliquely, that older ops shouldn't be hard because they shouldn't be giving out top-end gear. Which is pure ends-justify-the-means elitism. They're end-game content, they can give out end-game gear. (And it's not that they actually ARE giving out guaranteed endgame gear; going through an Op gets you a chance at endgame gear - which is a crappy artificial-scarcity method to ensure grinding, IMO.)

Of course they wouldn't want to do it.

 

1) New players tend to catch up with the majority, especially group content since it would be much easier to find groups. What kind of reward? If they can get higher tier with new ops, why would they stay at old ones? If the old ones drop the same gear as the new ops, then the developers are pretty much out of their mind. If you MUST do this ops to catch up, that is going to drive off new players. These are group content, you can't do it without a group and how many people are doing it decide how easy it is to find a group.

 

2) These ops were NOT targeted for the majority during its release, they were targeted for elite raiders, which already a small percent of the playerbase, after they've moved on to new ones, the content would be pretty much dead if nothing had changed to its difficulty. why is it so hard for you to understand it? Ops are GROUP CONTENT, you can't do it simply because of your own interest, you need a certain amount of people to get interested to it so you could find groups. THIS is also why modern players are less and less interested in such content. They don't want to spend so much effort on finding group and practice with the team, even set time schedule for raid, not anymore.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[MotorCityMan]

They probably want new raids because all the old ones have broken fights.