Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[_NovaBlast_]

All BW has to do is change the F2P model. It's their one ace in their hand. A less restrictive F2P will probably cause an influx of new and older players.

 

Just my personal opinion but I think it would be the wrong type of players . I personally believe they are already Too generous with the FTP if they do any adjusting it should be the other way and make it more restrictive.

 

IMO FTP should have the absolute minimum possible. The system is jsut meant to get a taste of the game not play it indefinitely.

 

There are some that do support the game with cc purchases that make them valued contributors ... but I suspect the majority as with all FTP try to exploit and truly "freeload" off the system

Edited September 23, 2016 by _NovaBlast_

[TUXs]

Just my personal opinion but I think it would be the wrong type of players . I personally believe they are already Too generous with the FTP if they do any adjusting it should be the other way and make it more restrictive.

 

IMO FTP should have the absolute minimum possible. The system is jsut meant to get a taste of the game not play it indefinitely.

 

There are some that do support the game with cc purchases that make them valued contributors ... but I suspect the majority as with all FTP try to exploit and truly "freeload" off the system

What's with the attitude exactly?

 

We need PLAYERS, F2P or P2P, who really gives a flip? F2P is perfectly fine for a very casual player, of which there are plenty. They're the type of player who wouldn't be playing this game if it weren't for the F2P model. They sell things on the GTN, they buy things on the GTN. They enjoy the story, they take their time, they don't hurt you, they don't hurt me...but they do one thing very much needed in an MMO...they add to the feeling of "life" the game has.

 

They don't play for FREE to cheat the system, they play for FREE because they find at least SOME enjoyment in this game...which may or may not lead to them spending money on it...either way, they add value by simply being here.

[ikinai]

What's with the attitude exactly?

 

We need PLAYERS, F2P or P2P, who really gives a flip? F2P is perfectly fine for a very casual player, of which there are plenty. They're the type of player who wouldn't be playing this game if it weren't for the F2P model. They sell things on the GTN, they buy things on the GTN. They enjoy the story, they take their time, they don't hurt you, they don't hurt me...but they do one thing very much needed in an MMO...they add to the feeling of "life" the game has.

 

They don't play for FREE to cheat the system, they play for FREE because they find at least SOME enjoyment in this game...which may or may not lead to them spending money on it...either way, they add value by simply being here.

 

tuk er jerbs!

[TUXs]

tuk er jerbs!

Oh...sorry...I had no idea...obviously it's OK to hate em now

[Rion_Starkiller]

Ya F2P and Preferred are fine by me. I just wish they couldn't spam genchat.

[_NovaBlast_]

What's with the attitude exactly?

 

We need PLAYERS, F2P or P2P, who really gives a flip? F2P is perfectly fine for a very casual player, of which there are plenty. They're the type of player who wouldn't be playing this game if it weren't for the F2P model. They sell things on the GTN, they buy things on the GTN. They enjoy the story, they take their time, they don't hurt you, they don't hurt me...but they do one thing very much needed in an MMO...they add to the feeling of "life" the game has.

 

They don't play for FREE to cheat the system, they play for FREE because they find at least SOME enjoyment in this game...which may or may not lead to them spending money on it...either way, they add value by simply being here.

 

its not an attitude its an opinion. "having players " for the sake of "having players " is not good if the majority of those players dont support the game in a financial way. I dont believe "free players" add "value" in any way "simply by being here" .

 

I did acknowledge the ones who do though CC purchases,

 

If the players want "play casually and have fun" they can do so with the current system.

 

as I already stated IMO Bioware is already being too generous so naturally I believe they dont need a "less restrictive" environment to do so as I stated in my original comment

Edited September 23, 2016 by _NovaBlast_

[TUXs]

its not an attitude its an opinion. "having players " for the sake of "having players " is not good if the majority of those players dont support the game in a financial way. I dont believe "free players" add value in any way. I did acknowledge the ones who do though CC purchases,

 

If the players want "play casually" "have fun" they can do so but they dont need a "less restrictive" environment to do so as I stated in my original comment

You are entitled to your opinion. I think it's wrong and I have given a reason why I believe so. There are plenty of other reasons I think F2P is critical for any MMO these days. The longer someone plays THIS game, over another game, the more likely they are to become a sub.

[ikinai]

You are entitled to your opinion. I think it's wrong and I have given a reason why I believe so. There are plenty of other reasons I think F2P is critical for any MMO these days. The longer someone plays THIS game, over another game, the more likely they are to become a sub.

 

I do F2P all the time in other games to try them out. If I likey, I subscribe, if I no longer find it entertaining or want a break, depending on the game, I just stop playing. Some games I enjoy enough to continue my sub even when not playing, and some, I'm looking at you Conan, just didn't live up to my expectations. But, without the f2p I would probably not play as many and subscribe to as many as I do.

[TUXs]

I do F2P all the time in other games to try them out. If I likey, I subscribe, if I no longer find it entertaining or want a break, depending on the game, I just stop playing. Some games I enjoy enough to continue my sub even when not playing, and some, I'm looking at you Conan, just didn't live up to my expectations. But, without the f2p I would probably not play as many and subscribe to as many as I do.

And you are not alone...I do the same thing. Try the F2P...if I like it, I sub. The restrictions can make/break initial impressions.

[Nempo]

Said this once, say it again. TOR does not need to make F2P any better. Every other game that offers F2P models caps you almost always at level 20. So sure, you can purpetually play and have access to stuff but you are gimped at level 20 (which is never the top level of any PvP brackets either) so they make sure to make you feel extremely stunted. In TOR you can play all the stories, group, even guild with people. Play every mission. You are just limited in the side activities and such.

 

If anything TOR's F2P model is perfect.

[gabigool]

I dont believe "free players" add "value" in any way "simply by being here" .

 

Sure they do.

 

They help pvp pop quicker. Flashpoints. Operations. Other players are now happier.

 

They purchase things on the GTN. They join guilds. They help grow the community.

 

They talk about how great the game is to their friends.

 

Not sure I see a downside to having more people play.

[ikinai]

And you are not alone...I do the same thing. Try the F2P...if I like it, I sub. The restrictions can make/break initial impressions.

 

I'm not too concerned with restrictions, as I played demo disks back in the 80's and 90's that were far more restrictive. Mostly I want to get a sense of the game, the people playing, the story, the style, artwork and being restricted doesn't bother me. Unless it doesn't allow me to see any of those parts of the game. Then I just move on and don't look back. Most games are open enough with their f2p models to allow you to get a good sense of the game and whether you would enjoy less restrictions or not.

[TUXs]

I'm not too concerned with restrictions, as I played demo disks back in the 80's and 90's that were far more restrictive. Mostly I want to get a sense of the game, the people playing, the story, the style, artwork and being restricted doesn't bother me. Unless it doesn't allow me to see any of those parts of the game. Then I just move on and don't look back. Most games are open enough with their f2p models to allow you to get a good sense of the game and whether you would enjoy less restrictions or not.

I become a lot more cynical when trying a new MMO...I have to be impressed before I decide to sub.

[PlasmaJohn]

Every other game that offers F2P models caps you almost always at level 20.

Repeating a statement doesn't make it true. While I tend to avoid F2P games the ones I'm passing familiar with (like pretty much all of NCSoft's catalog) certainly don't cap you at 20 and in many cases offer you a far more playable experience than SW:TOR's Preferred status. Even WoW's level 20 trial beats the pants off TOR's sad joke of an F2P status.

 

They get that they need F2P folks to populate the game so that their paying customers have enough other people to play with to make their experience better. See, some games understand that retention important. It's far easier to keep existing customers than it is to constantly attract new ones.

[LyraineAlei]

Repeating a statement doesn't make it true. While I tend to avoid F2P games the ones I'm passing familiar with (like pretty much all of NCSoft's catalog) certainly don't cap you at 20 and in many cases offer you a far more playable experience than SW:TOR's Preferred status. Even WoW's level 20 trial beats the pants off TOR's sad joke of an F2P status.

 

They get that they need F2P folks to populate the game so that their paying customers have enough other people to play with to make their experience better. See, some games understand that retention important. It's far easier to keep existing customers than it is to constantly attract new ones.

 

WoW F2P - SWTOR F2P of three years ago-ish

No Mail at all - SWTOR allows mail for F2P to be accessed so you can get things through the mail (I don't remember if it block sending mail, but the mail-spammers suggests it doesn't)

Cap at level 2- - SWTOR F2P cap is 50 and allows to play through to the start of RotHC (my F2P time was before SoR)

Limited Character Slots - Limited Character Slots, reasonable

No Monk Pandarens, no Death Knights - Limited species options that changes very little of the game because it is the class, not your specie that determines where you start

limited chat to private channels and /say - one chat post every XX seconds.

no guilds - can join guilds (I don't remember if SWTOR F2P can create guilds)

no auction house - can use GTN

6.1 WoW limits F2P to 10 gold per character - SWTOR has credit limits

Can go into Battlegrounds, just not turn off EXP gains - limited WZ and GSF passes per week (considering the level cap being 50 at the time

Unlimited dungeons for the level 10-20 range - limited FPs and Ops passes per week

No limit on quickbars - Two Quickbars which can hold most of an average rotation for most classes (Okay, this is a bee in a person's trousers, and a reasonable one)

No pet battles - Limited Crew Skill options by default

Transmogging is available for Wow F2P - Unify Colors is not for SWTOR F2P

Can wear any quality of gear - no purple quality of gear in SWTOR (considering KotFE rewards blues and greens, the whole 'I can't wear purples!!!11!!one!' thing when you're level capped at 50 on level synce planets doesn't seem to make much sense to me)

limited banking due to gold limit - no cargo hold, but can use Legacy Storage from strongholds (if my reading is correct)

 

Please note that I was trying to compare pure F2P to pure F2P. Prefs and drops subs (whatever WoW calls them) was not taken into consideration for this comparison.

[Deewe]

WoW F2P - SWTOR F2P of three years ago-ish

No Mail at all - SWTOR allows mail for F2P to be accessed so you can get things through the mail (I don't remember if it block sending mail, but the mail-spammers suggests it doesn't)

Cap at level 2- - SWTOR F2P cap is 50 and allows to play through to the start of RotHC (my F2P time was before SoR)

Limited Character Slots - Limited Character Slots, reasonable

No Monk Pandarens, no Death Knights - Limited species options that changes very little of the game because it is the class, not your specie that determines where you start

limited chat to private channels and /say - one chat post every XX seconds.

no guilds - can join guilds (I don't remember if SWTOR F2P can create guilds)

no auction house - can use GTN

6.1 WoW limits F2P to 10 gold per character - SWTOR has credit limits

Can go into Battlegrounds, just not turn off EXP gains - limited WZ and GSF passes per week (considering the level cap being 50 at the time

Unlimited dungeons for the level 10-20 range - limited FPs and Ops passes per week

No limit on quickbars - Two Quickbars which can hold most of an average rotation for most classes (Okay, this is a bee in a person's trousers, and a reasonable one)

No pet battles - Limited Crew Skill options by default

Transmogging is available for Wow F2P - Unify Colors is not for SWTOR F2P

Can wear any quality of gear - no purple quality of gear in SWTOR (considering KotFE rewards blues and greens, the whole 'I can't wear purples!!!11!!one!' thing when you're level capped at 50 on level synce planets doesn't seem to make much sense to me)

limited banking due to gold limit - no cargo hold, but can use Legacy Storage from strongholds (if my reading is correct)

 

Please note that I was trying to compare pure F2P to pure F2P. Prefs and drops subs (whatever WoW calls them) was not taken into consideration for this comparison.

Very interesting comparison for sure.

 

WowWlooks like way less appealing still there's one single thing that's hurting SWTOR : making players pay for quickslots. Remove that and eventually the option to toggle helmets and then people would feel way less ripped off by BioWare.

 

Again it`s mostly a matter of perception, to which Blizzard wins easily.

[LyraineAlei]

Very interesting comparison for sure.

 

WowWlooks like way less appealing still there's one single thing that's hurting SWTOR : making players pay for quickslots. Remove that and eventually the option to toggle helmets and then people would feel way less ripped off by BioWare.

 

Again it`s mostly a matter of perception, to which Blizzard wins easily.

 

Thank you, I tried to keep my comparison organized.

 

To me, I played for several months as SWTOR F2P (Subbed when my BH main was on Belsavis, my main Warrior was approaching Belsavis, my Knight was on Hoth, and I had others at lower level ranges, all without once grouping, doing WZs, FPs, Heroics, any of it beyond questing and class questing), so I learned to work around the quickbars and to remove skills I wouldn't use (slash attacks on Sage Healer, for example, crouch/cover for Smug/Agents and use the keybinds instead, etc) and which ones would be click abilities (speeders, QT, FleetPass), so the QB thing for me wasn't as big of a deal. But if the QB was increased by even one for Pref and F2P, that would ease up a lot of pain for a lot of people, I think.

 

WoW's level 20 cap was more of a deal breaker for me because I want to really get a feel for the story (I did buy the pack that came with the book and the 30-days pass thing eventually, and was saddened when the story didn't quite seem to flow very well from specie to specie). Level 30 would have been fine since that would give the full starter zone and then some of the next zone to see if I wanted to go on (and considering WoW's level cap overall is level 100, 30 isn't that far along either).

 

The rest of SWTOR to me was fluff. Sure, it'd be fun to play a Twi'lek smuggler, but playing as a Zabrak didn't change much from playing as a human beyond a line here or there, the species thing was fluff. The armor looking bad was fluff, helmets was fluff, even if both bothered me, I figured I could find a way around them, like nice headgear pieces or something and cheap armor that looked close enough to match in colors. Titles and Legacy Titles didn't matter much to me since at the time of my F2P time, I had no interest in titles. I mostly still don't and forget I have them or to change them. My recent runthrough of SW had gone through his class story, and was halfway through KotFE I-IX before I realized he was still using Acolyte above his name.

 

I also admit I felt the brunt of the credit thing as a F2P, but those were also the days of paying to upgrade each and every skill as you leveled up, so I was more often broke (almost reach cap once because I had gone a planet and a half without upgrading abilities and forgot to do so, and then wondered why things were harder to kill than the last time I ran a character through Imp Taris before remembering). Since then, I've been a broke subscriber paying for her character's abilities until 2.something with the 12x EXP for pre-ordering SoR came along with free skills trainings, and then 3.1 went live and removed the cost of ability upgrades.

[PlasmaJohn]

Much worse? Looks more of a toss up to me. I'll agree that it's a matter of perception. If you're a solo type of player, then SW:TOR wins. If you're not, WoW looks much better. WoW also isn't trying to pass off its free trial as a viable F2P program.

 

So if the SP experience is so superior and the one Austin seems to have given exclusive focus to why are they just giving it away yet paywall their neglected raids. Arguably they're also paywalling FP's, PvP and GSF to some extent. For a one time purchase of $15 I get access to all of the most current single player story forever yet when those 30 days run out I have to rent access to the stale group content via passes.

[Khevar]

I'll agree that it's a matter of perception. If you're a solo type of player, then SW:TOR wins. If you're not, WoW looks much better.

If you're not a solo-type of player, SWTOR isn't much interested in your business anyway.

 

So .. you're not making a compelling argument to change the F2P model, IMO.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Khevar

[_NovaBlast_]

Sure they do.

 

They help pvp pop quicker. Flashpoints. Operations. Other players are now happier.

 

They purchase things on the GTN. They join guilds. They help grow the community.

 

They talk about how great the game is to their friends.

 

Not sure I see a downside to having more people play.

 

& PlasmaJohn since you both basically have the same view point.

 

That is your opinion and you have the right to it you're right that might make "some" players happier. I say some because for the people who dont participate in those activities your examples have no effect on them

 

All that does i s serve the interest of a small subset of niche players and people who "need" GTN as a way of making credits IMO As credits are very easy to come by I dont think that would really make much of difference I see no value there for bioware and , the game itself or "players " in a general sense.

 

As for word of mouth i would take someone who is subbed or has spent a consider amount on cc that says hey this is a great game i been subbed for x amount of time / spent x amount of $ on the cc market you should check it out .

than hey come check out this game you and totally freeload of its ftp system.

 

IMO I still stand by everything I said .. keeping FTP the way it is or making it more restrictive is better for the overall health of the game and more fair for the people who do financially support it.

 

Again this is just my personal perspective and opinion you may disagree and have a differnt one which is perfectly fine.

Edited September 24, 2016 by _NovaBlast_

[Nempo]

Repeating a statement doesn't make it true. While I tend to avoid F2P games the ones I'm passing familiar with (like pretty much all of NCSoft's catalog) certainly don't cap you at 20 and in many cases offer you a far more playable experience than SW:TOR's Preferred status. Even WoW's level 20 trial beats the pants off TOR's sad joke of an F2P status.

 

They get that they need F2P folks to populate the game so that their paying customers have enough other people to play with to make their experience better. See, some games understand that retention important. It's far easier to keep existing customers than it is to constantly attract new ones.

 

You say that but I will counter. Do those MMOs allow you to play 8 seperate fully fleshed out voice acted class stories without paying a dime?

[Shwarzchild]

You are on a forum, the very least you can do is fully type out words.

Then you devolve into personal attacks on someone.

 

As for "ruined it" it has hardly been ruined, the raid style of MMOs is dying. The target player base for MMOs, the ones that stay and play them, is 30+ now. We have jobs, families, children, pets, houses to take care of...responsibilities. This means the large blocks of time for a raid are no longer viable. As it was, even when raids were in their hay day, only 10% of the player base ever saw it. Why put money and dev hours into content only 10 percent will ever see when you can put it into content more will see; PvP is 30-50% of the player base depending on the game for example, small group content is closer to 70%, solo content is 100%.

 

I'm sorry but this is a bit misleading. Many of us do have families, houses, jobs, etc but none of the people I raid with who have said responsibilities want to stop raiding in this game. It's not something we do as crazily as before in terms of night after night. But it's still a hobby people want to participate in. Those stats can also be misleading. Those 10 percent means 50k people or close to 750k in sub money a month. That's including story mode through nim since raiders have to subscribe pretty much. Extrapolating fully out to a year sub that's 9 million dollars. That's financially still relevant. Participation rates also are at the mercy of design choices. When operations are over tuned that hurts the metrics for example.

[gabigool]

. Participation rates also are at the mercy of design choices.

 

Bottom line is this.

[gabigool]

As it was, even when raids were in their hay day, only 10% of the player base ever saw it. Why put money and dev hours into content only 10 percent will ever see when you can put it into content more will see; PvP is 30-50% of the player base depending on the game for example, small group content is closer to 70%, solo content is 100%.

 

If this were true, you might have the beginnings of a point.

 

When Denova was announced, the statistic was 38%. Feel free to go check the notes from the guild summit before 1.2 dropped. They're still quite easy to find. Consider the subscriber base at that time. That's quite a large number of people.

 

The WoW stats demonstrated over 60% of their playerbase "saw" raid content. Consider how many people that is.

 

Please do not try to argue that there was no appetite for raid content in this game. It's simply something you are making up.

Edited September 24, 2016 by gabigool

[VegasTheLost]

Please do not try to argue that there was no appetite for raid content in this game. It's simply something you are making up.

 

Also it's worth to mention that if raids saw at least a bit of attention from dev side from the get go(namely constant bug fixing, fine tuning and basically everything one can think of), it would be safe to assume that the raiding attrition weren't so quick.