New Chapter: Visions in the dark - Post your thoughts

[Celise]

one thing i didnt like about the chapter was the endless shade creatures constantly phasing out and attacking you every few meters. that got dull very fast. could of mixed it up a litte, put a few other types of enemies out there with a few different mechanics to make it less stale. reminds me a lit of kaliyo's chapter, only this one is slightly longer.

 

otherwise i ran through it with a number of my alts, one of which attempted to

kill satele without success, to him any force user is fair game.

 

[IanArgent]

What I'm taking away from this discussion is that Valkorian and Arcann are "cut scene awesome" and that the player is railroaded into losing.

 

Uh, yeah. They are the Big Bads of the story so far. Tradition and Campbell both demand they show up from time to time to kick you around until your own power exceeds theirs. This chapter was a training montage, at least partially, and partially a Lock and Load Montage. It's not the end of the story. You didn't beat Savak at Coruscant, either.

 

As a training montage in Star Wars, the comparisons to Dagobah are inevitable; so they played it up, instead. That might not be your cuppa, but it didn't bother me.

 

As for the cramped-hallway nature of the chapter - well, most instanced story content in the original stories were literally cramped hallways, often chock full of mobs at chokepoints who cannot be reliably stealthed past. It's not new, it's just more concentrated because they "took out" the open-world running-around between quest locations. The illusion of being outdoors makes it more annoying is all.

 

ETA: yes, it's a railroad, just as any CRPG is a railroad. If you don't want a railroad RPG, play a tabletop game.

Edited April 6, 2016 by IanArgent

[Quraswren]

For this chapter it's a mixed bag. You are extremely pigeonholed.

 

LS seemed right from start to finish. Fighting valkorian all the was to the force discussion with Satele and Marr. That felt spot on.

 

Running it was a DS character and one that wanted to help valkorian and used his power and was willing to do about anything to push those plans and valkorians sudden turn around was some screwed up writing. Whoever wrote that for DS needs a good smack on the back of the head. Nothing felt right as a DS toon.

 

I'd imagine playing a neutral toon works well but DS toons its a FUBAR chapter.

 

The outside world of odessan was nice. I loved the force jump mechanic clickables and I was even OK with the phase shift mobs because it WASN'T the auto-spawn mobs BS we have had. So thanks for that.

 

Enjoyable as LS. Nothing but a "F" up as DS but an fun romp around Odessan for either.

 

On a side note: I still hate that I beat the crap out of valkorian and somehow I'm still the loser. I'm well past tired of beating thecrap out of these story toons and still losing. That is immersion and story breaking on a whole new level of terrible.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Quraswren

[Tarlonniel]

This chapter made no sense to me. At all.

 

Fortunately, everything involving Satele and Marr is easily ignored, so.... my PC went for a walk in the forest and finally managed to kick Vitiate out of her head! There were some weird dreams involved, but after a little meditation - or a good, stiff drink - everything's good. Can't wait to get back to kicking around Zakuul next month! Great chapter, BioWare!

[Max_Killjoy]

Uh, yeah. They are the Big Bads of the story so far. Tradition and Campbell both demand they show up from time to time to kick you around until your own power exceeds theirs. This chapter was a training montage, at least partially, and partially a Lock and Load Montage. It's not the end of the story. You didn't beat Savak at Coruscant, either.

 

As a training montage in Star Wars, the comparisons to Dagobah are inevitable; so they played it up, instead. That might not be your cuppa, but it didn't bother me.

 

As for the cramped-hallway nature of the chapter - well, most instanced story content in the original stories were literally cramped hallways, often chock full of mobs at chokepoints who cannot be reliably stealthed past. It's not new, it's just more concentrated because they "took out" the open-world running-around between quest locations. The illusion of being outdoors makes it more annoying is all.

 

ETA: yes, it's a railroad, just as any CRPG is a railroad. If you don't want a railroad RPG, play a tabletop game.

 

If they're not going to let me beat something because there's a cutscene that pops up and dictates the outcome of the encounter no matter how well I was doing in the actual fight... then they shouldn't even bother having the fight happen. It's terrible writing and reminds me of bad tabletop GMs who secretly keep adding levels or hit points or whatever to their pet NPC whenever it's close to defeat.

 

#1 rule of running / developing any RPG, computer or tabletop -- don't put something in a fight with the PCs that you're not willing to see lose a fight to the PCs right then and there.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[IanArgent]

If they're not going to let me beat something because there's a cutscene that pops up and dictates the outcome of the encounter no matter how well I was doing in the actual fight... then they shouldn't even bother having the fight happen. It's terrible writing and reminds me of bad tabletop GMs who secretly keep adding levels or hit points or whatever to their pet NPC whenever it's close to defeat.

 

#1 rule of any RPG, computer or tabletop -- don't put something in a fight with the PCs that you're not willing to see lose a fight to the PCs right then and there.

 

Haven't we had this discussion? BW has some poor writers/GMs. But if they had just cutscened it, there would have been just an uproar; and it's not like they haven't had fights end in cutscenes where the result of the fight is ignored before, either.

 

(My equivalent rule, back when I was running tabletop games, was: If you give it stats, the players will kill it. Sometimes you need to have the PCs curbstomped.)

[Jedi_riches]

If they're not going to let me beat something because there's a cutscene that pops up and dictates the outcome of the encounter no matter how well I was doing in the actual fight... then they shouldn't even bother having the fight happen. It's terrible writing and reminds me of bad tabletop GMs who secretly keep adding levels or hit points or whatever to their pet NPC whenever it's close to defeat.

 

#1 rule of running / developing any RPG, computer or tabletop -- don't put something in a fight with the PCs that you're not willing to see lose a fight to the PCs right then and there.

 

I was in all 208 gear and the fight seemed level pegging to that point so for cases like me its not too much of a stretch for me to get overwhelmed at some point. in higher gear sure it could seem that way but in my gear I was not winning that battle any time soon.

[Sundragon]

I'm not happy.

 

Why am I forced to go see Valkorian for assistance? I wanted to go help on the Gemini assault, but nooooo, I have to go see Valkorian. Fine.

 

I don't want to "learn the path of the light" in addition to the dark-side. I'm tired of this "neutral is better" crap. This is STAR WARS. If it were some other title, I might be more forgiving, but come on! STAR WARS. Light side versus Dark Side, but apparently Neutral Side beats them all? After thousands of years, the Jedi and Sith never figured it out??? Very frustrating.

 

So, I want to kill the former Jedi Master, but nooooo, even though I'm given the choice to do it, and I gain 100 dark side points for the choice, the game won't let me attack her. ***?

 

Then I come back and find out that I'm not going to attack the spire? So frustrated.

 

I friggin hate being forced down a path. I know that's the kind of game this is, a story telling kind of game, but jeez man, give players a bit more flexibility.

[Quraswren]

Haven't we had this discussion? BW has some poor writers/GMs. But if they had just cutscened it, there would have been just an uproar; and it's not like they haven't had fights end in cutscenes where the result of the fight is ignored before, either.

 

(My equivalent rule, back when I was running tabletop games, was: If you give it stats, the players will kill it. Sometimes you need to have the PCs curbstomped.)

 

Then do it from the get go.

 

Don't let the players beat the crap out of your boss for 5 mins and then sudden in a cut scene be the losers. That is quite possibly the most immersion breaking, story killing option there is.

 

When the fight happens. Make the boss actually win. Make the mobs actually do what you want them to but hell, don't let me beat the "F" out of them only to see me get beat in a lackluster cut scene where suddenly a random force push is the deciding blow.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Quraswren

[CommanderKeeva]

I felt this chapter was very thematic and appropriate on my LS Guardian and neutral Assassin. It was okay on my DS Juggernaut. It was utterly ridiculous, silly and non-sensical on my Smuggler, Trooper and Imperial Agent.

[killershrike]

Yeah, the chapter made not much sense on my smugggler.

In half of the conversations there was not a single dialogue option that was even remotely fitting for my character.

[IanArgent]

Then do it from the get go.

 

Don't let the players beat the crap out of your boss for 5 mins and then sudden in a cut scene be the losers. That is quite possibly the most immersion breaking, story killing option there is.

 

When the fight happens. Make the boss actually win. Make the mobs actually do what you want them to but hell, don't let me beat the "F" out of them only to see me get beat in a lackluster cut scene where suddenly a random force push is the deciding blow.

 

They can't tune the battle on a per-player basis. I found this fight reasonably difficult on my Knight, though I wasn't exactly getting thrashed, either. It was a bit of a stalemate. I think I would have prefferred an enrage point (time/HP on either side), where Valk says he's done playing around and tosses you halfway into orbit and lets you land in a force storm. But that's a personal taste.

 

To a certain extent, this is one of those storytelling tropes that implements badly in an RPG; and worse in a CRPG where you can't tune to the individual. An unwinnable fight is frustrating; it works better in non-interactive storytelling, but it's a powerful trope, so it gets used in interactive storytelling as well. Once or twice in a major story arc is acceptable to me.

[Jedi_riches]

They can't tune the battle on a per-player basis. I found this fight reasonably difficult on my Knight, though I wasn't exactly getting thrashed, either. It was a bit of a stalemate.

 

This was actually my feeling on my sorc, when the cut scene came in both me and Valkorian had about the same amount of health between 3-5% difference. I can understand those players who were doing it in 220 gear actually beating him to that point, yet I would argue that 90% of the players doing this chapter will be in lesser gear.

 

You can't tune a battle to someone with max datacrons and gear when most of the players doing so will most likely be in 200 - 208 gear it would simply make the fight too difficult for the masses.

[JediAkemi]

Overall, I enjoyed in on my Jedi Knight. Granted, not everything made sense, and I'm half convinced that Marr's ghost is Vitiate/Valkorian too.

 

Senya was chewing me out over Kaliyo as if I'd taken the Dark Side option in chapter X even though I didn't... not sure if that's a glitch or another instance of her and Koth being "not so different after all". I want to bash them both over the head with their own self-righteousness.

 

Fighting ghost-Valkorian was... one part interesting, three parts blipping irritating. Constantly teleporting, though appropriate for a spirit enemy, made for very frustrating gameplay, especially because my graphics card and connection make it really hard to keep up with enemies that can *poof*... still, mobile challenges are more interesting than static slugfests, so on a better machine it could have been fun

 

The vision-Vaylin fight glitched on me so I had to run away until the encounter reset. It behaved the second time and was quite fun.

 

The final monster... I chose neutral because I expected the Light and Dark options to both be "wrong" given the theme of the chapter, which meant I didn't have to fight it.

 

The Arcann-buster lightsabre is going to sit in my cargo hold until the time comes to actually bust him with it

I don't like the look of it compared to the lightsabres I chose for myself... still, it could be worse.

 

I felt like everyone was lying to me (or just sincerely wrong) when they said Valkorian strengthened my bond with the Force. If that was true, why do we keep running into cut-scenes where we're ridiculously weak compared to how we were in the original story?

 

Not sure how this is going to play on my Agent, or my start-at-60 Visas clone (or anyone else for that matter.

 

The cliffhanger really got me itching for the next chapter so I can go and save Havoc Squad... and I guess I'll save Kaliyo too

[IanArgent]

This was actually my feeling on my sorc, when the cut scene came in both me and Valkorian had about the same amount of health between 3-5% difference. I can understand those players who were doing it in 220 gear actually beating him to that point, yet I would argue that 90% of the players doing this chapter will be in lesser gear.

 

You can't tune a battle to someone with max datacrons and gear when most of the players doing so will most likely be in 200 - 208 gear it would simply make the fight too difficult for the masses.

 

Well, in this case a curbstomping by Valk would be thematically appropriate.The trick would be having the player stand a chance at the beginning. If I were doing it (and the engine supported it) I'd have done an enrage curve so that his power increased as time went on or HP bars went down so that, at the end, he was guaranteed to stomp anyone, but started at the "story encounter boss" level of difficulty.

[JediAkemi]

If they're not going to let me beat something because there's a cutscene that pops up and dictates the outcome of the encounter no matter how well I was doing in the actual fight... then they shouldn't even bother having the fight happen. It's terrible writing and reminds me of bad tabletop GMs who secretly keep adding levels or hit points or whatever to their pet NPC whenever it's close to defeat.

 

#1 rule of running / developing any RPG, computer or tabletop -- don't put something in a fight with the PCs that you're not willing to see lose a fight to the PCs right then and there.

 

I remember in my first d20 Star Wars RPG, I introduced a recurring villain officer in the first session and I out-right told the players "I don't care how many replacement parts he needs, but he will be back"

The Wookiee Jedi cut his right arm off that time. He took one of his legs the next time the party faced him on the ground. They humiliated him in a massive space battle. They finally finished him off on Kashyyyk... while falling into the Shadowlands. I rather foolishly hoped that no-one would jump after him after they knocked him off the Nursery Ring, so he could survive and they could kill him on the next planet. It was pure awesome though. I miss those players.

[Newyankalt]

I thought if I was playing on a force user it would have made sense...

 

 

But as I have my KOTFE main focus on my Smuggler the whole stuff with Satele/ Marr was pretty stupid...

 

 

At least the next chapter looks right up the Smugglers ally. Heist with Vette and Gault what a great trio. The Smuggler never really got a Gault like guy which would have made sense...

[Andryah]

I treat each chapter as a vingnette, and enjoy it for what it is.

 

I'm certainly not expected all the story chapters to be interwoven into some epic variation of War & Peace.

 

I enjoyed the new chapter, and I ran it on my Trooper the first pass. I don't have any issues with it, nor did I expect it would present life changing events and decisions for my fantasy characters I play in game.

[Slowpokeking]

Revan was only able to "resist" Vitiate for 300 years due to Meetra's intervention (he says as much). Also despite how it seemed the fight with Vititate was still up in the air. If it had been a sure thing Scourge wouldn't have killed Meetra and betrayed Revan, but the Force told him they were going to lose one way or another.

 

The Voice of the Emperor is a strange topic because it treads on arguments that no side has been able to outright prove. Some say that the Voice the Warrior fought was more powerful because it had both the essences of Sel'Makor and Vitiate within the body, but others have said that the being that the JK fought was more powerful because Vitiate would have been actively resisting Sel'Makor (a battle of wills) during the Warrior fight whilst his attention while not augmented would have been solely on killing the JK. Unless a dev has outright said this fight was harder (and no, coy *wink wink, nudge nudge* doesn't count as confirmation for either side).

 

As for the "plot hole" I'll agree to a point. I mean the argument could be made that Vitiate lost a lot of power when he was killed by the JK. Marr says that the JK had done the closest thing to killing Vitiate in his entire history so the whole Yavin thing could have been to regain his power after being killed. He feeds on death so the more death the better (I guess). What I mean to say is that the story presents it as the JK doing actual "Force damage" to Vitiate to the point that he has to reconstitute himself. He corrupts Revan into making that happen faster because he can't stand not being at full power and when he is "reborn" on Yavin it gives him enough power to achieve his ultimate goal on Ziost. The whole thing on Belsavis, Voss and Corellia? Essentially that was to get him to the point he was at post-Yavin. And then Ziost achieved his ultimate goal of immortality. How? Idk. Why? Idk. Could be that Valkorion fears death so deeply that he wants to escape the flow of destiny via the Outlander who via being a PC is outside destiny in general.

 

On another note about Revan. While the exact numbers he kills isn't known in KOTOR I don't think we can definitively say that he "killed Bastila's strike team". I present my evidence.

In this clip you see three bodies. The first is a Sith Trooper (you can tell because he/she has the shiny armor). The next one is the body of the Dark Jedi Bastila kills moments before. And finally the republic soldier is the last body (killed by Revan). Unless its some tertiary source like the Star Wars Roleplaying Game we can say almost definitively that Revan didn't kill anyone except that officer. Bastila is later backed up by three Jedi who are either killed or knocked out (temporarily or for a while it doesn't matter) when Malak fires on Revan's bridge.

 

Note: Which as a point to the one person on here who was so bothered by the fact that Arcann was caught by surprise...Here is a perfect example of an incredibly powerful Jedi/Sith being caught off guard. Jedi intuition only goes so far even with the greatest Jedi/Sith. Yoda gets knocked around by Sidious and vice versa. Being caught off guard even as a Jedi/Sith isn't out of the realm of possibility. Atton Rand of KOTOR II makes that abundantly clear when he points out the various ways he as a non-Force user (at the time) tripped up Jedi.

 

As for the discrepancies between stories I won't say anyone's feelings are invalid here. If that's how you felt that's how you felt. My argument at least as far as Force users go though is that for the Inquisitor you needed the power of the ghosts to "match" Thanaton. To match a single Dark Council member.

 

Arcann may not be his father, but Valkorion makes it clear that his son isn't a pushover in the slightest. Arcann and Vaylin are the spawn of the single most powerful Force user in the galaxy (maybe in all of Old Republic history) and are competent Force users themselves. Does Arcann lose fights? Sure. Every great Force user in the galaxy has at SOME point. Anakin lost to Dooku, Anakin lost to Obi Wan. Vader lost to Luke. Sidious lost to Vader. Yoda lost to Sidious. etc etc. Kylo Ren was awesome until Rey whipped him like a teenager in the shower room and you bet your bungalow that Rey is going to be beaten at some point during the trilogy.

 

Arcann beat us. That is not a failure on the part of the player. That showcases what you're going up against without creating yet another 10 feet tall laser shooting raid boss. It wasn't in the cards for the player to win. That should be telling you something. Its not, "All my past victories are invalid." It's, "Wow I've beaten his father, Thanaton, Darth Baras, The First Son. Council members, Revan, ancient abominations and yet he nearly killed me/I barely scratched him." Should you get angry? Sure, especially if that's in character for your Sith or even Jedi. Your Sith should be pissed this punk beat you. Arcann should be terrified because now the Empire's Wrath/Darth Nox/Jedi Battlemaster/Barsen'thor is out for blood.

 

What this Chapter did was remind the player that, "Look. You are the single greatest fighter in the galaxy Force user or no. But so was I and so was Marr at some point and one of us is a throw rug for Vaylin." You don't have to take what Satele or Marr say at face value. One of the options hints that maybe Satele fell to the dark side or vice versa. They are afraid because even as the epitome of the Jedi and Sith they were beaten, VERY easily and people lost their lives because of that. Still, you don't have to adhere to their ideology. My character trusted Satele, but I don't know for certain that she was right. You can even say (multiple times), "Uh no. The Jedi/Sith code is the single way I'm going to win (or my blaster idk)" and that is just as valid a response. It's just that these people think x is the way to victory. Yoda and Ben thought killing Vader was how they were going to win. Clearly they were wrong.

Arcann beat my SI only because she was having a lightsabr duel against him.

[Quraswren]

They can't tune the battle on a per-player basis. I found this fight reasonably difficult on my Knight, though I wasn't exactly getting thrashed, either. It was a bit of a stalemate. I think I would have prefferred an enrage point (time/HP on either side), where Valk says he's done playing around and tosses you halfway into orbit and lets you land in a force storm. But that's a personal taste.

 

They don't have to tune it for each player but damn, if you're going to come out the loser no matter what you do. Just get it over with because otherwise. The entire story falls apart. Immersion just destroyed. Good or bad player. You lose no matter what. Just get it over with in a fight where the boss indeed just beats the **** out of you no matter what. Carry that to the cut scene where you still lose.

 

Me beating the crap out of valkorian or arcaan or anyone and a cut scene used to make me lose is FUBAR for story and game immersion in my eyes.

 

To a certain extent, this is one of those storytelling tropes that implements badly in an RPG; and worse in a CRPG where you can't tune to the individual. An unwinnable fight is frustrating; it works better in non-interactive storytelling, but it's a powerful trope, so it gets used in interactive storytelling as well. Once or twice in a major story arc is acceptable to me.

 

It's called Ludo-Narrative Dissonance IIRC and it's a POS way to do things and a cop out mainly. If BW plans on making you the loser before things even start. Then just get it over with. Design the fight to make sure you lose no matter what gear and what skill you bring to the table. Make damage work off percentages so no matter the gear difference, you lose 25% on "X". It would feel all the same. The fighting part is just a waste of time if no matter what you do, the following cut scene makes you the loser, not the fight.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Quraswren

[TimesChampion]

I personally really enjoyed it!

 

 

It showed a lot of potential for future content. Personally I am no fan of Revans and they play very heavily on that - transcending the constraints of light and dark - but I can very much see why they are going in that direction. Marr's shifting mentality concerns me a bit. Anyone that knows anything about him beyond the game knows what a vicious bastard he is, but it really depends on execution now.

 

I find, oddly that my my respect for Setelle (sp?) is shifting as well. I always grudgingly respected her, believing that even as an enemy she deserved that because she fought for what she believed. Now that she's - somewhat - beyond her infuriating Jedi mentality she's tolerable.

 

From an inquisitor POV, I really would have liked my guy to use his Force-walking ability and consumed Marr, but I doubt that will happen. And I really wish Setelle would have given more reaction to the Theron comment - Hilarious.

 

I find it odd as well that both sided want you to take the Eternal Throne. I mean I wanted it anyway and I understand why Setelle and Marr want you to have it, but the Emperor? I know, I'm probably the last player in the game still loyal because I understand something that others have forgotten - he's a Sith! However, knowing this I can only think of 1 reason...

 

And am I the only one who thinks Vayln is manipulating her brother. Not excusing him, but I think there's more going on.

 

 

Overall, a lot of potential

[AlienEyeTX]

They can't tune the battle on a per-player basis. I found this fight reasonably difficult on my Knight, though I wasn't exactly getting thrashed, either. It was a bit of a stalemate. I think I would have prefferred an enrage point (time/HP on either side), where Valk says he's done playing around and tosses you halfway into orbit and lets you land in a force storm. But that's a personal taste.

 

To a certain extent, this is one of those storytelling tropes that implements badly in an RPG; and worse in a CRPG where you can't tune to the individual. An unwinnable fight is frustrating; it works better in non-interactive storytelling, but it's a powerful trope, so it gets used in interactive storytelling as well. Once or twice in a major story arc is acceptable to me.

 

I think it was just a time killer. They could just as easily made a nice long movie of the fight and it would probably have made more sense. My merc was wiping the floor with Val and then suddenly things happen. Things were closer with my Sin, but still ahead by plenty. In all, there was no point to having us do that fight.

 

If you're going to put an unwinnable fight in the game, at least make different outcomes based on whether you are winning or losing the fight at the turning point. In this case, it's the same either way.

[Newyankalt]

Arcann beat my SI only because she was having a lightsabr duel against him.

 

I guess that's the excuse Palpatine uses against Windu, or Yoda against Palpatine...

[JennyFlynn]

What's 'wrong' with Gray Jedi, or with neutrality?

 

My main/most frequently played character is a Jedi Knight. She fully understands the Light side, she understands though doesn't always abide the Code. She's good and does the right thing for as much as she can (aka the game allows) however, she does also have a mind of her own. She was forced to train as a Sith acolyte for several months while under the Emperor's control and through that, as well as her companionship with Lord Scourge, she's learned there's far more to the Force than that which the Light allows Jedi to know/utilize. Understanding the Dark side and embracing both sides of the Force while balancing it with her own moral code makes her a stronger and better fighter. It, in my opinion and hers for my headcanon, gives her more of an edge. I don't see how that's a bad plot or what's wrong with that.

 

I do understand the upset when the game FORCES that neutrality onto your character though. I have a Sith who I've deliberately been steering into Dark V and who now, due to KotFE's storytelling and design, struggles as the DS choices tend to be outrageous and make her look dumb rather than strong and powerful.

[Slowpokeking]

I guess that's the excuse Palpatine uses against Windu, or Yoda against Palpatine...

 

Palpatine lost to Windu because it was just an act to attract Anakin. Yoda did use Force against Palpatine in the fight.

 

Darth Nox is mostly a sorcerer.