Game has died, Nowhere to go

[MadCuzBad]

I don't think the game will die soon, but it's not going to a good direction.

 

Die soon? Do you mean close all remaining 8 servers? It died years ago. Ask anyone from my old server POT5.

[Max_Killjoy]

And yet here you are, still paying your sub and still posting on the forums and still logging in at least enough to do "research" that's tangential to any claim you've made.

[annabethchase]

Die soon? Do you mean close all remaining 8 servers? It died years ago. Ask anyone from my old server POT5.

 

By this definition, I"m not sure any game is alive except The Division. Yet here we have 100's of thousand people having fun monthly so it's not dead in my definition.

[AlaricSevGirl]

That's the story on every server my man. Peeps just aren't logging into the game like they used to. The Fallen Empire content that most can't even play isn't bringing peeps back either. The recent Fallen Empire xpac has fallen on its face and having no real endgame for PvE, like a new Operation, is really killing that side of SWTOR.

 

The 4.3 Update may possibly breathe some new life into the PvP-side with its new WZ and new Arena map. However, without an announced Ranked Season I don't see how a Solo-Q only option WZ is going to keep players interested for long. I mean, this is an MMO. PvPers want to compete in matches that matter and play with their friends. The new changes incoming don't accomplish either of those things.

 

I agree. BW needs to change their stand on KOTFE. It should be available to everyone. Instead of making it sub only, they should have introduced it as a DLC package like ESO does. Pay 20.00 get all season one episodes. If they continue to sub block content, free players will not play. It does BW no good to do this and while we're on that, they need to lessen the restrictions of F2P and preferred. The reality is that there are great games out there that are B2P or F2P that make huge amounts of money in their online stores. BW/EA is milking this and I can understand why people think it's dying or going to die. BW needs to wake the hell up and see what's really happening to their game if they want their game to last that is. It's not going to last or grow this way.

[robertthebard]

I agree. BW needs to change their stand on KOTFE. It should be available to everyone. Instead of making it sub only, they should have introduced it as a DLC package like ESO does. Pay 20.00 get all season one episodes. If they continue to sub block content, free players will not play. It does BW no good to do this and while we're on that, they need to lessen the restrictions of F2P and preferred. The reality is that there are great games out there that are B2P or F2P that make huge amounts of money in their online stores. BW/EA is milking this and I can understand why people think it's dying or going to die. BW needs to wake the hell up and see what's really happening to their game if they want their game to last that is. It's not going to last or grow this way.

 

This is the same kind of logic I see used in the "loosen the restrictions on F2P" threads, and I'm not buying it here either. Earlier in this thread, or possibly in the OP's other thread that completely disregards this one in favor of "PvP is alive and well", TUX listed a couple of links that demonstrate just how much more BW knows about what's going on in their game than we do. What you observe, or believe, doesn't matter, what matters is what they see going on. You see people logged in, but have no idea what they're doing, they can tell you how many Bonded Attachments were made yesterday. They can tell you which rank of Bonded Attachments was most popular too.

 

They can also tell you how many people ran anything in KotFE yesterday. That F2P won't play it is blatantly obvious. They won't because they can't. If they want to play it to date, all they have to do is pay for one month, and get busy, since they'll have access to everything released up until their sub start date, and anything that comes out before that sub expires. A 30 day sub right now will give them access all the way to chapt 12. Not bad for 14.99, eh?

[TUXs]

Earlier in this thread, or possibly in the OP's other thread that completely disregards this one in favor of "PvP is alive and well", TUX listed a couple of links that demonstrate just how much more BW knows about what's going on in their game than we do. What you observe, or believe, doesn't matter, what matters is what they see going on. You see people logged in, but have no idea what they're doing, they can tell you how many Bonded Attachments were made yesterday. They can tell you which rank of Bonded Attachments was most popular too.

Wait wait wait...I listed those examples to show that the HAVE the data...their ability to understand that data, and know what's going on, is absolutely in question though

[MadCuzBad]

No, you weren't. Not in 2012.

 

Unless you have some strange definition of the word "dying" that means "will continue for another 4 years"

 

Die

verb (used without object), died, dying.

 

1. to pass gradually; fade or subside gradually (usually followed by away, out, or down):

 

2. to become weaker or fainter and then cease:

 

3. to die only after a bitter struggle. to give way or surrender slowly or with difficulty:

 

Nope actually the definition works perfectly for what I was referring to.

[Max_Killjoy]

And yet here you are, still paying your sub and still posting on the forums and still logging in at least enough to do "research" that's tangential to any claim you've made.

[Eldren]

I really wish I could somehow take predictions of ANY MMO's "death" and turn them into money. I'd never need to work again. *SIGH*

 

Here's the deal: an MMO is "dead" when the company turns the servers off. EverQuest 2? That's dead. Matrix Online? Dead.

 

World of Warcraft? They're STILL subscription-only (though I figure at this point they're likely to transition to F2P in the next couple of years). Old Republic? Doing better now as a F2P game than when it was sub-only. I just came back after a solid 4-year absence, and I'm already prepped to transition to a full subscription at the end of this week (I'm running on a referral 7-day subscription right now, in fact). The game is still FUN.

 

There's nothing wrong with not enjoying a game if you've been playing awhile. There really isn't. But predicting its death serves no real purpose.

[Thoronmir]

There's nothing wrong with not enjoying a game if you've been playing awhile. There really isn't. But predicting its death serves no real purpose.

One problem is the myopic perspective too many players have. A game "dies" when the game no longer caters to the aspects the specific player wants. It doesn't matter whether the game provides steady entertainment to other players. Once the player believes the game no longer serves his purposes, the game is dead.

 

That said, there's nothing inherently evil in basing one's opinion on a game's survivability on how that game treats the elements you enjoy. Subjectivity is an appropriate standard when it comes to a game's vital signs. What is missing is the implied suffix to all the posts declaring "SWTOR is dead" ... that suffix, "to me", should be inferred in every title or pronouncement of the game's demise. I.e., "SWTOR is dead to me." Which is a perfectly reasonable statement to make.

 

I generally consider Danny Glover to be a great American actor. His list of credits is replete with impressive performances. Then, I saw him in "Death Squad." So, now, I feel secure announcing that Danny Glover's acting career is dead ... to me.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Thoronmir

[Khevar]

Nope actually the definition works perfectly for what I was referring to.

Fair enough.

 

Why, after proclaiming the game was dying back in 2012, did you continue to play it?

 

Why would you play a dying game, anyway? Why give money to a company to support a dying game? Why stick around for 4 freaking years for a "dying game"?

 

That's some interesting logic right there. "Game is dying". "Here have some of my money"

Edited March 21, 2016 by Khevar

[Costello]

It was a passing comment, meant to reinforce that the devs do care and are listening. Nothing sinister was presented in that article re devs "reaching out, off the books". In fact it is probably somewhat common in the industry. And it makes sense, when a studio is trying a different approach to content releases. They keep a pulse both on player feedback as well as internal analytics.

 

 

 

While they do not answer every question that enters the forum (honestly who would, given some of the questions and the hostile manner in which they are presented), they do answer questions and it is pretty clear they do read them even if they don't answer them. [Note: I'm not saying they are great at clear, timely, and unambiguous communications... they are not by any means best in class in this regard].

 

Stop catastrophizing, IMO.

 

In any article you have a word count, a finite period to hook your audience and encourage them to continue reading and get your message across before they get bored. It has been suggest that the intent has greatly reduced the time an article has to make that impact as people attention span has decreased and want instant gratification.

 

This means putting a paragraph in which is meaningless or misleading would be counter productive to the effectiveness of the article. The paragraph was included and not to be ignored but to show that that the producers are keen to solicit feedback only they seem to be going about it all wrong as rather than seek the feedback from players they opt to go to someone that is employed to write articles about the game, a site that is funded by Swtor advertisements.

 

That it is off the book is not a good thing, if they wanted to restore confidence they would announce we are actively seeking feedback on whats working, what is not and what they can do to improve the game. You don't need to have off the book chats if your goal is to communicate with your customer base and deliver a better experience. Off the book is when things are bad, players are leaving and you don't want to announce that and instead play the hypothetical game of lots of players are leaving do you think if we offered more HK rewards they would come back.

 

As for the responses on these forums if you look at the questions that are answered 95% of the answers are to questions that a few minutes checking the forum would answer without the response or such absolutely insignificant that knowing the answer changes nothing and answered simply to tick some box that a question was answered. There are no meaningful dialogues between the players and the devs, worse is even in elements such as the live stream the answers are kept so incredibly vague they don't provide any information.

 

Every live stream questions about which companions are returning are posed and every live stream the answer of they will only return when it makes sense in the story. That wasn't the question which companions, this could be answered as the VO is done months in advance and the story is written and signed off before this so it would be easy to answer which companions are returning in season 1. But instead a non answer of they will only return when it fits the story, so which ones fit the story that has been written? And this is the common thread about any question of note even if it gets a mention.

 

As for if the game is dead, dying or the biggest game in the world ever of course people use hyperbolic language on the forums. If you don't, any comment is marginalized and ignored, linking back its all about grabbing attention to get your point across. Waiting till the plug is pulled is far too late to then start saying the game is dead and the reason this happened is A, B and C. Cause its far too late for anything to be done and you are completely wasting your time even bothering to post. I suspect the dream of many people that post on the forums is that the dev team will take note and improve the situation before the plug is pulled. Due to the utter lack of communication and the often fanboism that is demonstrated on any media from Austin its not clear to the players if they are even aware that guilds are departing en mass, that 30 minutes of story doesn't keep people logging in after the weeks after it was launched or that too many of the chapters are coming off as filler. In a vast galaxy currently under occupation there are so many opportunities yet the story resolves around Zakuul undercity and swaps and recruiting a couple of the arguably less popular companions.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Costello

[xordevoreaux]

Fair enough.

 

Why, after proclaiming the game was dying back in 2012, did you continue to play it?

 

Why would you play a dying game, anyway? Why give money to a company to support a dying game? Why stick around for 4 freaking years for a "dying game"?

 

That's some interesting logic right there. "Game is dying". "Here have some of my money"

 

Exactly. I read that post MadCuzBad made in 2012. If the game is so dead, why did he keep on playing a dead game? Why didn't he move on to something more alive?

If you can still post on a game's forums that a game is dead, it's not dead.

[Thoronmir]

Exactly. I read that post MadCuzBad made in 2012. If the game is so dead, why did he keep on playing a dead game? Why didn't he move on to something more alive?

If you can still post on a game's forums that a game is dead, it's not dead.

So, you're saying it's only mostly dead? We need a miracle!

 

[TUXs]

Exactly. I read that post MadCuzBad made in 2012. If the game is so dead, why did he keep on playing a dead game? Why didn't he move on to something more alive?

If you can still post on a game's forums that a game is dead, it's not dead.

Maybe he actually LIKES this game and wishes it weren't "dead" feeling...

 

I like this game, I've played since beta...but to deny it's losing players is just denial of fact. I have no desire to go play something else...I just want more people HERE.

[xordevoreaux]

Maybe he actually LIKES this game and wishes it weren't "dead" feeling...

 

I like this game, I've played since beta...but to deny it's losing players is just denial of fact. I have no desire to go play something else...I just want more people HERE.

 

And for someone to complain in the forums for years on end that the game is dead or dying has really done wonders for increasing the player base. Advertise on Craig's list for players or something. Half a decade of complaining in the forums hasn't done squat.

[Eldren]

So the question I'd have regarding dev interaction is this: what's their motivation? They're human beings. As has been amply demonstrated in pretty much every MMO that made an attempt at community since WoW, reaction to developer statements is, at best, hostile, and at worst outright demeaning.

 

I think back to the Wrath of the Lich King beta. Greg Street, "Ghostcrawler", was brand new to Blizzard at that point, to the point that there was even a thread on the beta forums at the time wondering whether Ghostcrawler was a man or a woman (and reasonably convincing arguments, based on at-the-time very limited details, for both conclusions). When the beta was still populated with invite-only players on a limited scale, the forums were constructive, friendly, issues were brought up respectfully and developers would post frequently. As the number of beta testers increased, the quality of posts from players took a nosedive, and the frequency of developer posts radically diminished. Some of this could be laid at the feet of the dev scramble that always happens prior to launch. The rest of it is a logical human response to entering a virtual "lion's den".

 

I've not seen a single forum community ever improve.

 

It was the same with the beta for Old Republic, too. Early invites were polite, respectful, raised issues, and the devs talked a lot to us. As more people got invited, the quality of posts went down, and the frequency of dev posts likewise diminished.

 

The game's been live for years now. It went through growing pains, then the pains of converting to F2P, and now people are once again upset over <insert thing here>.

 

That won't ever change.

 

There's an entire generation of digital natives from a variety of countries who have been trained to think that if they're loud or abrasive enough, they'll be given what they want. People wanted ship combat... they got it. People wanted player housing... they got it. People wanted story-driven content... they got it. More than that, they wanted something they HADN'T gotten before, which they got: a new character, instead of the one they'd been playing for years in the inevitable MMO endgame cycle of "New tier of content/new tier of gear/rinse/repeat". The reality is MMOs are a limited beast. Once you hit the level cap, you have a lot less to do unless you're willing to explore other areas of game play (if you PvE'd a lot, try PvP; if you zipped through all the cutscenes because you just wanted a quest objective to chase, immerse yourself in the story; if you played Empire, try Republic; if you were a Bounty Hunter, try a Sith, on and on).

 

Even then you have the obsessive types who use whatever free time they have (and some folks have an awful lot of it, while others have to squeeze it in between school, work, family, offline social life, etc.) to burn through the content. Then once they're done, they come to the forums and start demanding more.

 

They aren't looking at the health of the game. They aren't looking at a slow build for a story-driven game. They aren't looking at limited developer resources. They aren't looking at (or may not even be aware of) development, QA and implementation time. All they know is "I've done all the stuff I want to do, I want more stuff to do. It isn't there? OH MY GOD THE GAME IS DYING!" This ignores the fact that with a couple notable exceptions (Matrix Online being key among them), MMOs take a VERY VERY LONG TIME to die. They have to reach the point where there's consistent revenue loss against the cost of maintaining the servers & tech support (as new development will often be the first thing to die in a game; they'll go into maintenance mode for some time first).

 

On top of this, we're talking about Star Wars. Despite the content we're in no longer being main timeline canon (after the whole EU was shuffled off into "alternate timeline" land after the Disney purchase), the hunger people have for Star Wars seems never-ending. If given the opportunity in nearly any capacity to be a part of this universe, people will take it. Mobile games, shooters, RPGs, MMOs, people will take it. That's only going UP right now since we're in the beginning of a new phase of not only direct sequels to the original trilogy, but ancillary movies to fill in other stories people want: young Han Solo, Boba Fett, Yoda's past, squadrons of X-Wing pilots, the list goes on and on. That interest alone can insure that this game keeps going for a long time. "What, you mean I can be a Bounty Hunter like Boba Fett? THERE ARE HUTTS TO WORK FOR AND FIGHT? COOL!"

 

"Wait, I can be a Jedi Knight? Hand me that lightsaber. I want a purple one like Mace WIndu, I... OMG THERE'S A PURPLE LIGHTSABER IN THE GAME."

 

"What game did you love, dad? 'Knights of the Old Republic'? That looked fun. WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE'S MORE STUFF IN THAT WORLD?!"

 

Hyperbole isn't justified, nor are dire predictions of the game's death.

 

I'm ALMOST inclined, at this point, to say World of Warcraft may die before Old Republic does, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if, by the time SWTOR dies, a new MMO set in the new main timeline would crop up... from EA/BioWare, who Disney are just fine leaving in charge of Star Wars video entertainment options.

[RiVaN_]

So, you're saying it's only mostly dead? We need a miracle!

 

 

 

I guess SWTOR needs a visit from Miracle Max?

 

 

In all seriousness, I have been doing a population study on JC the past month. On the Republic side we seem to be hovering around about 400 - 500 during prime time Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday nights. That is across Ops, Warzones, planets, Fleet and strongholds. If we assume that there is an equal amount on the Imp side then we can assume JC has less than 1000 players a night, on average. PvP seems to be very slow to pop and Group Finder for Ops and FP's is only a little bit better.

 

SWTOR has fallen on hard times, that if for sure.

[Taareth]

I'm rarely in fleet, mostly I use the strongholds as a quick travel point, I have all I need there and its decorated to my liking and closer together. A lot of the people I know do the same, so I can't agree the population in fleet is an indication of anything other than the population in fleet. This post is not debating anything else said here, except that point. Edited March 21, 2016 by Taareth

[Khevar]

Maybe he actually LIKES this game and wishes it weren't "dead" feeling...

 

I like this game, I've played since beta...but to deny it's losing players is just denial of fact. I have no desire to go play something else...I just want more people HERE.

I can completely understand that -- but he spends an inordinate amount of effort in this (and other) threads engaging in "Forum PvP" rather than having a discussion about it.

 

While I may occasionally disagree with what you have to say, TUXs, I feel like you're actually here to discuss things, and genuinely want to make the game better. MCB tends to make snarky posts (e.g. defining "denial" a bunch of times), and saying things like "the game died 4 years ago"

 

That doesn't bring anything to the table. All it does it bait responses. It's simply forum PvP.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Khevar

[Max_Killjoy]

I can completely understand that -- but he spends an inordinate amount of effort in this (and other) threads engaging in "Forum PvP" rather than having a discussion about it.

 

While I may occasionally disagree with what you have to say, TUXs, I feel like you're actually here to discussion things, and genuinely want to make the game better. MCB tends to make snarky posts (e.g. defining "denial" a bunch of times), and saying things like "the game died 4 years ago"

 

That doesn't bring anything to the table. All it does it bait responses. It's simply forum PvP.

 

He just loves him some PvP, bro.

[TUXs]

And for someone to complain in the forums for years on end that the game is dead or dying has really done wonders for increasing the player base. Advertise on Craig's list for players or something. Half a decade of complaining in the forums hasn't done squat.

He likes the game, I didn't say he was weird about it. Would you advertise on Craigslist for players? That's WEIRD! Marketing this game is on Bioware...not the players...no matter how much any of us enjoys the game.

[IanArgent]

I'm rarely in fleet, mostly I use the strongholds as a quick travel point, I have all I need there and its decorated to my liking and closer together. A lot of the people I know do the same, so I can't agree the population in fleet is an indication of anything other than the population in fleet. This post is not debating anything else said here, except that point.

 

Population checks ANYWHERE are irrelevant because of this.

[TUXs]

While I may occasionally disagree with what you have to say, TUXs, I feel like you're actually here to discussion things, and genuinely want to make the game better.

Thank you - you're absolutely correct!!!

 

I don't rip on the game or Devs just to be a ****, I comment on areas I truly feel Bioware needs to focus their attention on. I want this game to EXPAND! I want it to GROW! I want RPers happy, Crafters happy, GSF players happy, PvPers happy, PvEers happy and solo players happy as well...because we're ALL important to this games future!

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Die

verb (used without object), died, dying.

 

1. to pass gradually; fade or subside gradually (usually followed by away, out, or down):

 

2. to become weaker or fainter and then cease:

 

3. to die only after a bitter struggle. to give way or surrender slowly or with difficulty:

 

Nope actually the definition works perfectly for what I was referring to.

 

Well at least he went a little farther in the dictionary this time, though I think he is stuck on the "D" key...