Game has died, Nowhere to go

[Lodinn]

The point being; I fully realize that the population fluctuates a lot. I realize that it's probably lower now than it was. The difference is, I'm not seeing the doom and gloom. The reason has been stated, but I'll repeat it here: MMOs attract a large number of nomadic players that will come in, devour the latest content and move on. It's been going on since online gaming became a thing, and it will continue to go on until someone invents tech that allows devs to simply think of something to do and it's built.

As I read the original post, it's more about what's on the table from the perspective of a person who's more into logging in each day rather than checking what's the buzz once in a month. That's what I feel like and OP's position looks totally understandable to me.

It seems that SWTOR turned to a bad habit for me and ones alike, in the end of the day I realize i wasted hours basically just waiting for an opportunity of getting what I did come for in the first place. Mostly unsuccessful.

My point is: from the 'log in, check the pulse, move on to the next game' mentality perspective it's no real matter how many people play given game at given time. If the state of the game is bad, you just switch to something else and give devs some time to get their stuff together.

If you have really hard time switching (and I'm quite seasoned gamer, but can totally relate to that very sort of addiction), how good the game is RIGHT NOW and what it can offer damn matters.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It has been my experience that when the PVP gets slow, it becomes a snowball effect on a servers population. Whether or not you like PVP, when the PVP dies off, the entire server goes boooooooom.

 

That's not true otherwise this game would have gone boom over the past few YEARS where PVP has been ignored.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Your first group in the "Who is left?" paragraph above. You have effectively described 90% of all people that play MMOs.

 

Right first I'll find that paragraph, got it. Now to find the first group I describe in it ... ok here it is ... "Die hard, "be there and done it all" players who many admit would stay subbed almost regardless of what happens and are happy to repeat things over and over because they strangely enough enjoy doing so"

 

You think those people make up 90% of ALL people that play MMOs ... lol hyperbole much. What a ridiculous statistic.

 

This delusion that somewhere out there is an MMO that's releasing content often enough that people don't burn out on it is just that, a delusion. It doesn't happen.

 

I said there was such an MMO out there did I? Where?

 

In fact, if you start combing MMO's gen discussion forums, you'll likely find a couple of threads just like this one, and worse, last nail in the coffin threads. They happen, and they happen a lot, and frankly, they start happening in Beta for a lot of games "because they're not enough like WoW", which ironically turns into "they're too much like WoW".

 

Why would I want to do that? You're making the claim here, how about you provide me with the proof of this.

Also why would I care what other people are posting about other games in their forums? I'm justifying and qualifying my posts in regards to this game and how it's current "state" is because that's what is being discussed here, not some other game and whatever issues it may or may not have and we're certainly not qualified from experience to talk about ( being that we don't play it - you might but I don't anyway ).

 

 

Any kind of experience outside of this MMO would demonstrate that quite clearly, and, in fact can be observed through the history of this forum as well. I wonder, how many of these threads have you actually posted in?

 

They demonstrate that these threads happen? What's your point here? Are you attacknig the posts or the topic because you're being rather utterly generic here.

If you want to know how many I post in why don't you go and count? It can't be that difficult after all ... a little mundane perhaps but you're the curious one after all.

 

The fact that you don't seem to understand the nomadic nature of a lot of MMO players, who come in, play the latest content, come to the forums and complain about nothing to do, then move on to the next MMO on their list, sometimes even overlapping with other players that do the same thing.

 

Again in reference to my post what is your point here? You are acting like the direction SWToR is taking is generic too all MMO's ... I beg to differ, this episodic story style whilst ignoring fresh PVE end game content is an experiment. The results of which on failure we can only begin to guess at.

I outlined the types of players I see affected ( positively or negatively ) by such an experiment and I feel those remaining subscribed or becoming subscribed affected positively is not going to offset those leaving due to negative effects. It's all of course anecdotal evidence used to form such an opinion and there is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence to support such a view but you know what ... there really isn't much anecdotal evidence to support a population growth or even a sustained population by those who seem to think the games is doing well beyond an impression I get of "well I'm having fun so it must be all good and you're all just whingers!".

 

This isn't unique to here, or even new. It used to happen to me in a NWN server that I worked on, and one that I made. I'd announce new content, get an influx for a few days to a week, get some posts on our forum, and then poof, back to whatever the pop was prior to the release, give or take a few players. It was an easy thing to observe on my server, it was small, deliberately, a low magic world where munchkins weren't catered to. Welcome to the wonderful world of online gaming, these trends have been going on for years.

 

NWN was an MMO?

Whats another trend that goes on for years? Games close. New ones pop up. It's inevitable this game WILL close, the question is when ... this year so far is coming across as one of the worst imo unless something changes for the positive ( another nice saviour of an announcement like KoTFE last year will do the trick ) ... am I saying it will close this year? Nope, probably not but the worse it performs the less money that seems to be thrown at it for future development.

 

These activity spikes don't concern me because I've seen them all too often. Hey, sometimes people don't come back. Sometimes they do, and bring others with them, and then there's the new people you listed above. None of this is unusual, trying to claim otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of the way these things really work. All of these games "suffer" from these trends, not just here.

 

Trying to pretend downward trends continuing won't lead to a games closure and is more demonstrating a lack of understanding. One would almost be lead to believe you think this is normal of all MMO's and they never close as a result ...

 

Let us not also forget this game is a special case. It's star wars and it's owned by EA. They are not going to keep it around just for the sake of it with dwindling returns year on year. They are going to want to maximise their license so where as other smaller MMO's might get away pottering along for years on end I don't see this game being given that luxury, not when there is money EA is missing out on with the license.

 

I'd imagine, however, that a lot of the "real" PvPers have left, since PvP carries so much relevance to the main game. What is it that it adds that compels "real" PvPers to stay? PvE mounts? The one chance they had to make it totally relevant was blown with the way Conquest is handled. I'd much rather square off against a guild that already owns a planet for control than watch people craft their way to the top, or PvE enough guards...

 

Um having fun playing PVP maybe? What makes most PVP games "relevant"? PVP is something that can keep people playing and paying after they've done the story and don't feel like doing it again ... this has been a huge lost opportunity in this game and it may very well be too late with the upcoming PVP additions to really get any decent return from the investment in development that would have been put in because these is the risk that those that would really enjoy it have left and aren't interested in coming back ... guess we'll see if we see a spike though, PTS hasn't looked that promising but then that's PTS.

 

I'd also imagine that a lot of the hardcore raiders are elsewhere, at least until we get something new to bring them in. However, most of them have been gone. Some probably from the time they learned that nothing was on the table for a while. They may or may not come back when something else comes along. The point being; I fully realize that the population fluctuates a lot. I realize that it's probably lower now than it was. The difference is, I'm not seeing the doom and gloom. The reason has been stated, but I'll repeat it here: MMOs attract a large number of nomadic players that will come in, devour the latest content and move on. It's been going on since online gaming became a thing, and it will continue to go on until someone invents tech that allows devs to simply think of something to do and it's built.

 

Which is why I mentioned a point of critical mass. There has to be a point where you lose too many regular subscribers and put too much reliance no the casuals ( or nomadic players if you like ), new players and die hard players .... it will happen sooner or later ... the question is that is the sooner arriving sooner than we would like?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Heh.

 

Well I have gone elsewhere for a while. I certainly haven't been playing this game full time for 4 years.

 

A friend was a fan of STO and convinced me to try it. I played it for a while, found the ground combat awkward, liked the space combat, made it to their version of "end game", had fun in their version of GF queues, and then my interest petered out. Haven't logged in for a while.

 

I caught up a number of single player games I was backlogged on.

 

I tried FFXIV, made it to level 30-ish. It's an interesting game, and the community seems surprisingly nice. At least, any time I've asked a question in game, on the official forums or the reddit forums I've had plenty of friendly and helpful answers. The NPC conversation interaction is quite jarring (after SWTOR) -- a mute PC seems to bother me these days.

 

However, their version of "appearance designer" doesn't kick in until level 50. Until then you generally have a truly weird set of gear choices. As I gear up (quest rewards), my toon bounces between looking like a stay-puft marshmallow wrapped in bamboo leaves, and an out-of-work prostitute. :/

 

I got a free copy of the The Division as a promotion with a new Logitech keyboard. Theoretically I could log in and see what the fuss is all about. Not sure why I haven't yet. Maybe soon?

 

What happened was I was feeling nostalgia about KOTOR, and followed instructions from WSGF to hack the screen resolution to play it full widescreen, along with a few mods with improved textures / skyboxes. Still quite dated, but I had fun. Then I did KOTOR 2 with TSR mod.

 

That rekindled a yearning for the vanilla class quests in TOR. Seeing as how I just replayed a 13-year old game for the Nth time, I figured I could stand running through a part of the game I hadn't seen in 3 years.

 

/shrug

 

Nice, I find it hard to even justify playing the 8 classes to myself. I've done 2 ( Knight and Sin ) with a bit of Agent. Thing is it's fun n all but there is just so much else out there and I keep getting the "but I know how it ends" syndrome and I've almost never repeated games with the exception of Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate 2 and Kotor 1.

[robertthebard]

Um having fun playing PVP maybe? What makes most PVP games "relevant"? PVP is something that can keep people playing and paying after they've done the story and don't feel like doing it again ... this has been a huge lost opportunity in this game and it may very well be too late with the upcoming PVP additions to really get any decent return from the investment in development that would have been put in because these is the risk that those that would really enjoy it have left and aren't interested in coming back ... guess we'll see if we see a spike though, PTS hasn't looked that promising but then that's PTS.

 

When I want to PvP, I play Aion, it matters. Factions can capture areas of the map that open up teleporters to quest zones or fortresses in the abyss that the other faction can't use. In Rappelz, we had weekly sieges for control of the dungeons, where the winning guilds/alliances made money off the drops people get in the dungeon. Again, PvP was relevant. Winning the PvP match to gain control of the dungeon resulted in your guild/alliance making money off said dungeon. This is the same thing they could have done with Conquest to both make it and PvP relevant.

 

People that PvP here may enjoy it, but frankly, how many posts in the PvP forum about OP classes, real or imagined? How many times has PvE been nerfed to accommodate these PvPers? None of the PvP people I know from Rappelz or Aion stuck it out here. PvP and Conquest meant absolutely nothing. The only time I even look at conquest is crafting week, I put my crafters to work and play an alt. I'd be all over a chance to fight another guild for control of part of a planet, but a WZ? No thanks. I'm not into 1 2 3 go PvP, and the PvP servers can't maintain a population, because of the nature of PvPers? You know, running around the lowbie zones on capped characters, ganking everyone that moved. I've seen it happen on Shadowlands, until a capped toon shows up, then it's time to run to a camp and hide, because suddenly, PvP isn't "fun" any more.

 

Which is why I mentioned a point of critical mass. There has to be a point where you lose too many regular subscribers and put too much reliance no the casuals ( or nomadic players if you like ), new players and die hard players .... it will happen sooner or later ... the question is that is the sooner arriving sooner than we would like?

 

That's sort of a given isn't it? Everything dies, sooner or later. The problem is, I'm not seeing it. When I'm getting random group invites on every planet I go to for heroics, and we're still goofing off with stuff as a guild for the sake of goofing off. I'm not sitting on Fleet, trying to claim that a low population there means the game's in bad shape. There are too many people that don't go to fleet if they don't have to. I'm not trying to pretend that 3 instances of DK means the game is dying, or in bad shape. I'm not pretending that 100 people running around in the channel on Yavin 4 means the game is dead when I'm there leveling an alt. I'm not trying to pretend that people jumping nodes in front of me suddenly quit happening because I'm dissatisfied with the game. I'm also not trying to pretend that a normal trend in online gaming, not just MMOs, but online gaming in general, is the beginning of the end.

 

We'll know when that comes. I've seen people trying to claim that this game is in Maintenance Mode who obviously don't understand what that term means. We are not, of course, in Maintenance Mode. We are getting regular updates, we are getting bug fixes, even if it's not all of them, or fast enough for some people, including me, sometimes. Since these things are still going on, the game's health is ok. It may not be providing what PvPers want, or what Raiders want, or even what some story people want, but something is keeping people playing. They aren't hanging out on fleet discussing the beginning of the end, which of course leads some to believe that this is the beginning of the end.

 

Note, no denial here. Pops for Raiders are probably down. A lot of them have all the available gear, and don't want to run the same stuff. However, as I pointed out; people that play MMOs do indeed run the same content over and over again. They do it all the time. The reason, which you denied in this very post, is because there's nothing else to do. This situation isn't unique to swtor, which you also seem to be unable to believe, but DDO was just going through a topic just like this. In fact, I could remove all references to the perspective games, and you'd be hardpressed to tell which forum I pulled the posts from. Your lack of experience with this phenomena does not negate it's existence. It just demonstrates that you're unaware of it.

[knowmyname]

Just want to throw this out there to those that request hard numbers on server populations.....

 

Don't need them, my friends list and guild lists are enough for me to see a trend. The sheer number of buddies and guild mates that have not logged on in months or years is enough documentation needed to see what is happening.

 

 

Sad to see 10 people online at a time currently when I used to have to scroll down through online friends and guild mates currently online in past years.

 

#AmIRight

[Dzillah]

I'll tell the solo players/pve on here pvp is on life support. The Elite pvp guilds and ranked teams are all gone ; they have disappeared without anyone noticing because this game and the devs have no respect for pvp, the devs have not bothered to invest in it. Despite this , the pvp community has sustained itself for two years on the fibre of its population and community made content. This must be the biggest **** up in swtor history on biowares behalf to not invest in such a demographic which adds so much reoccurring subs and substance to their game.

REASON WHY PVP SERVERS ARE DEAD FROM A PVP'ER( no more speculation from pvers)

 

-balance is mess ,

sorc is dominant in so many categories it has streamlined pvp . Top healing , top versatility , top sustained damage .

Skank tanking is meta in pvp; which means tanks are just as powerful as the average dps in dmg/burst with the dcd/cc capability of a tank! now every warzone is a joke with more one sided stomps and snoozefests as every tom, dick and harry is guarded.

specs are left in teh dirt to rot with no recognition , nod at pyrotech and lethality , IO merc too. many people stick with these classes because hoping for balance changes. AND im gonna *********** say it ; deception sin too.

dueling has been neglected but at the same time has been a staple of the pvp community in these hard times. Having said this ; one class has such a monopoly on dueling they are most likely getting their own bracket in the next URC .

- Removal of 8 vs 8 ranked absolutely demolished the top pvp guilds . This was the epitome of swtor skill and after they removed whole guilds abandoned ship .

-Long pre seasons and no actions taking against win trading

pvpers are going months without being rewarded for their time, in comparison pvers get drops from operations whenever they feel like it with low skill cap. less time invested = more rewards , ranked pvpers , more time invested = less rewards.

 

its funny when tofn and pot5 both dying , solo players still think they know about game popularity only interacting with their comps and guild. all servers can be on light ; if they still have their little bubble and their new story content = game is still alive and vibrant.

 

releasing 2 warzones wont remedy years of neglect ; they must release a new ranked season which matchmaking/server merges/cross server queue.

they must do some serious marketing and support the pvp streamers with features on client page , shoutouts on swtor official stream.

make a effort to balance classes and at least change the meta from dominant sorc and skank tanks. This is the only cause of action which will revive pvp.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Dzillah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

People that PvP here may enjoy it, but frankly, how many posts in the PvP forum about OP classes, real or imagined? How many times has PvE been nerfed to accommodate these PvPers? None of the PvP people I know from Rappelz or Aion stuck it out here. PvP and Conquest meant absolutely nothing. The only time I even look at conquest is crafting week, I put my crafters to work and play an alt. I'd be all over a chance to fight another guild for control of part of a planet, but a WZ? No thanks. I'm not into 1 2 3 go PvP, and the PvP servers can't maintain a population, because of the nature of PvPers? You know, running around the lowbie zones on capped characters, ganking everyone that moved. I've seen it happen on Shadowlands, until a capped toon shows up, then it's time to run to a camp and hide, because suddenly, PvP isn't "fun" any more.

 

Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me now being that I maintain this PVP development is ideally a waste of time and money since the community that will see any benefit out of it has for the most part left and won't come back.

 

 

That's sort of a given isn't it? Everything dies, sooner or later. The problem is, I'm not seeing it. When I'm getting random group invites on every planet I go to for heroics, and we're still goofing off with stuff as a guild for the sake of goofing off. I'm not sitting on Fleet, trying to claim that a low population there means the game's in bad shape.

 

OK you aren't seeing it but other people are ... all of the evidence presented to prove a point on either side is completely anecdotal and non factual. The closest to factual is the torstatus data and the data is really iffy imo and circumstantial but it's still the closest thing we have to actual hard data and it doesn't paint the greatest picture.

 

What will be interesting is the next 2 financial reports from EA to see what sort of mention this game gets. I imagine a mention of an electronic revenue boost through the cash store for the next one personally ( due to arbiter saber but that's a one trick pony most have cottoned onto now ).

 

There are too many people that don't go to fleet if they don't have to. I'm not trying to pretend that 3 instances of DK means the game is dying, or in bad shape. I'm not pretending that 100 people running around in the channel on Yavin 4 means the game is dead when I'm there leveling an alt. I'm not trying to pretend that people jumping nodes in front of me suddenly quit happening because I'm dissatisfied with the game. I'm also not trying to pretend that a normal trend in online gaming, not just MMOs, but online gaming in general, is the beginning of the end.

 

Fleet is a great indicator though for what is happening to a population as is queue pops. It is something that is more or less dynamic throughout the life of the game in terms of population with the rest of playerbase meaning regardless of what else is going on in game the population of the fleet and how easy it is to get pops gives you a feel for how the population in the game is at that time. Far more people playing the game than ever you'll see a greater portion of palyers on fleet than ever and the same is true of the reverse.

 

Now there is a caveat as I see it ... the queue pops and fleet are only going to be reflective of the MMO poart of the community imo. That is it's mostly going to be comprised of those that are after the more traditional MMO activities like grouping for content ( operations, flashpoints, PVP ) and a portion forced to fleet to do the activities that require you to be there.

Now what this means is indeed this MMO population can be right down but indeed fleet can't judge if it's offset by an increase in casual, solo story based players that may rarely use fleet.

I just maintain that these players can't long term keep the game alive as it is now is all we're getting is the 1 hours episodic content a month as we've seen it. EC seems a flash in the pan and I've already written off the PVP update as any sort of great increase to population.

 

It is of course but an opinion and I'm not yet to say the game is dieing as much as I'm saying if it keeps going like this then it is going to die. Something needs to change.

 

We are getting regular updates, we are getting bug fixes, even if it's not all of them, or fast enough for some people, including me, sometimes. Since these things are still going on, the game's health is ok. It may not be providing what PvPers want, or what Raiders want, or even what some story people want, but something is keeping people playing. They aren't hanging out on fleet discussing the beginning of the end, which of course leads some to believe that this is the beginning of the end.

 

The problem is again we don't know how many are people playing and if you take the anecdotal evidence at face value things are on the wane, not the rise and not staying static. Whilst it might be healtyhy enough now an continued decline won't remain that way for long.

 

However, as I pointed out; people that play MMOs do indeed run the same content over and over again. They do it all the time.

 

To a point ... 15 months and counting for repeating that same repeatable content ( for the freshest, longer still for everything else BUT SF ) is a bit much for any dedicated MMO fan even if it is star wars.

 

The reason, which you denied in this very post, is because there's nothing else to do. This situation isn't unique to swtor, which you also seem to be unable to believe, but DDO was just going through a topic just like this. In fact, I could remove all references to the perspective games, and you'd be hardpressed to tell which forum I pulled the posts from. Your lack of experience with this phenomena does not negate it's existence. It just demonstrates that you're unaware of it.

 

More words ... if you have proof use it. Show other games that have gone down this path of long term ignorance of the MMO parts of their game, others that have tried this episodic experiment of solo, story content - show how that worked out in the long term for them and how it compares to this community. Just saying it doesn't make it so.

 

As much as the doom n gloom threads are often met with derision in the past it's becoming less and less lately and there seem to be more and more of them than ever.

[MadCuzBad]

Just want to throw this out there to those that request hard numbers on server populations.....

 

Don't need them, my friends list and guild lists are enough for me to see a trend. The sheer number of buddies and guild mates that have not logged on in months or years is enough documentation needed to see what is happening.

 

 

Sad to see 10 people online at a time currently when I used to have to scroll down through online friends and guild mates currently online in past years.

 

#AmIRight

 

I had a toon on Ebonhawk I never played. It was a level 11 sage. I had joined a guild that at the time about a little over 1 year ago was one of the top conquest guilds on the server. I was wanting to buy an item from the GTN and wanted to see if Ebon had it for sale. I logged into that toon to check and when I did it made me guildmaster.

 

When I looked thru the guilds player list it had about 400 members and nobody had logged in before me for 42 days. I sold the guild with 7 guild vaults and a fully unlocked guildship and transferred that toon to Harbringer with the credits I sold the guild for. This was about 1 month ago.

 

Now if that doesn't tell you the state of this game, I have no idea what will.

[CrazyCT]

I had a toon on Ebonhawk I never played. It was a level 11 sage. I had joined a guild that at the time about a little over 1 year ago was one of the top conquest guilds on the server. I was wanting to buy an item from the GTN and wanted to see if Ebon had it for sale. I logged into that toon to check and when I did it made me guildmaster.

 

When I looked thru the guilds player list it had about 400 members and nobody had logged in before me for 42 days. I sold the guild with 7 guild vaults and a fully unlocked guildship and transferred that toon to Harbringer with the credits I sold the guild for. This was about 1 month ago.

 

Now if that doesn't tell you the state of this game, I have no idea what will.

 

Maybe you wished the game would die so much, you actually ended up killing your guild?

[MadCuzBad]

Maybe you wished the game would die so much, you actually ended up killing your guild?

 

Are you Killjoy? Where did I ever 1 time say I wanted the game to die?

 

Wow the trolls are out in force today. I do not want the game to die. I enjoy the game and instead of quitting have spent countless CC coins trying to continue to play rather than ragequit.

[robertthebard]

Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me now being that I maintain this PVP development is ideally a waste of time and money since the community that will see any benefit out of it has for the most part left and won't come back.

 

Then we're sort of in agreement here, with the addendum that the PvP community brought some of this on themselves. PvP servers are ghost towns, but frankly, with quasi-open world PvP, why did WZs matter? It awards comms, I had 200 comms on my Assassin and the only PvP I'd done was in Section X, Oricon and Ilum during a Gree event. Yet, they migrated off, some likely quit, the ones that wanted to play in a PvP environment, but couldn't because they couldn't hit the people that wanted to PvP in their lowbie zone. Others moved because of the griefers, I have that on my own bit of anecdotal evidence, testimony of a guy that actually moved from Pot5 to Shadowlands. So they wanted to gank the lowbies, but can't understand why nobody wants to play with them. Then the queue times for WZs plummet, because there's nobody there to hit the queues any more.

 

 

OK you aren't seeing it but other people are ... all of the evidence presented to prove a point on either side is completely anecdotal and non factual. The closest to factual is the torstatus data and the data is really iffy imo and circumstantial but it's still the closest thing we have to actual hard data and it doesn't paint the greatest picture.

 

What will be interesting is the next 2 financial reports from EA to see what sort of mention this game gets. I imagine a mention of an electronic revenue boost through the cash store for the next one personally ( due to arbiter saber but that's a one trick pony most have cottoned onto now ).

 

Because it's based on percentage of capacity that's logged in? They increased capacity on the servers not too long ago, so the natural trend, even if the actual numbers of people logging in is exactly the same as the same time last year is that it's going to show as lower. Because even though it's the same number of people, with a higher capacity, the percentage is, in fact, lower.

 

EA doesn't list every revenue stream in every 1/4ly report. In so far as I'm aware, they never have, and they have a lot of games online, generating electronic revenue. This was bandied about a lot during DA I development on the BSN, wondering what the online requirement for that game was going to be. Turns out it was MP. I don't think a mention, or a neglect to mention is going to mean anything in the big picture, since this isn't the only online game that EA is running.

 

 

Fleet is a great indicator though for what is happening to a population as is queue pops. It is something that is more or less dynamic throughout the life of the game in terms of population with the rest of playerbase meaning regardless of what else is going on in game the population of the fleet and how easy it is to get pops gives you a feel for how the population in the game is at that time. Far more people playing the game than ever you'll see a greater portion of palyers on fleet than ever and the same is true of the reverse.

 

Now there is a caveat as I see it ... the queue pops and fleet are only going to be reflective of the MMO poart of the community imo. That is it's mostly going to be comprised of those that are after the more traditional MMO activities like grouping for content ( operations, flashpoints, PVP ) and a portion forced to fleet to do the activities that require you to be there.

Now what this means is indeed this MMO population can be right down but indeed fleet can't judge if it's offset by an increase in casual, solo story based players that may rarely use fleet.

I just maintain that these players can't long term keep the game alive as it is now is all we're getting is the 1 hours episodic content a month as we've seen it. EC seems a flash in the pan and I've already written off the PVP update as any sort of great increase to population.

 

A caveat to your caveat is that if there's 1 instance of fleet with 60 people, but 3 instances of Odessan with 40 in one, a discussion I saw yesterday on Odessan about it's population, where someone popped into chat with "There's only 40 people on Odessan, the game's dying", what kind of indicator is fleet? The only thing it shows is how many people are on fleet when one looks while there. That's all it really shows. I've seen that aforementioned discussion on Nar Shaddaa too, where there were 15 people in one instance, but three instances. If the pop of fleet at that time was only 60 people, I'm not going to be feeling like the game is dead/dying or even in trouble. I'm going to be thinking that there's a lot of people just like me: I don't go to fleet unless I absolutely have to, because Gen Chat is a cesspool, and I don't have to be there.

 

It is of course but an opinion and I'm not yet to say the game is dieing as much as I'm saying if it keeps going like this then it is going to die. Something needs to change.

 

I should have scrolled a bit more, I addressed this above.

 

The problem is again we don't know how many are people playing and if you take the anecdotal evidence at face value things are on the wane, not the rise and not staying static. Whilst it might be healtyhy enough now an continued decline won't remain that way for long.

 

We absolutely don't know how many people are playing. Therefore, any anecdotal evidence is circumstantial, at best. So a guy runs to the forums complaining about a 10 minute queue time and it is, according to him, the death knell of swtor. He would have rage quit 3 years ago as a dps, waiting an hour to maybe get a queue pop. The problem with queue pops overall is, for PvE at least, there's a lot more to it than just how many people are in the queue. How many are tanks? How many healers? My own experience hitting the queue as a dps and a tank tell me that they are very different animals: 45 minutes in the queue as a DPS, followed by 30 seconds, at most, in the queue as a tank. This is at the same time, since I logged off my DPS and onto my tank, with my guild leader hitting it the same way, only going on a healer the second time.

 

So again, grain of salt time, because we don't know the whole story, just the parts the poster wants us to know to support their claim. I can use my own experience, granted it's a couple of years old, to support the opposite, so long as I ignore my queue time as a DPS and just run with the tank's scenario, and claim that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game. The biggest problem is, if someone else even thinks they're right it's going to be the "Yeah, what he said", no matter what the actual situation may be. The fact is, we don't know, but we do love to speculate.

 

To a point ... 15 months and counting for repeating that same repeatable content ( for the freshest, longer still for everything else BUT SF ) is a bit much for any dedicated MMO fan even if it is star wars.

 

I'll just point you to Rappelz, where the method of leveling from 150 to 170, a process that took 2 years for the first person that achieved it, runs exactly like this:

 

1. Log in and start spamming Whole Chat for a group.

2. Eventually fill your group, a lot based on what role you're playing, and how well known you are.

3. Get to your spot in the dungeon, and kill the same mobs for as many hours as you can keep the group together.

4. Rinse and repeat until you hit cap, and level any pets that you may have.

 

More words ... if you have proof use it. Show other games that have gone down this path of long term ignorance of the MMO parts of their game, others that have tried this episodic experiment of solo, story content - show how that worked out in the long term for them and how it compares to this community. Just saying it doesn't make it so.

 

You provided it for me, right here.

 

As much as the doom n gloom threads are often met with derision in the past it's becoming less and less lately and there seem to be more and more of them than ever.

 

So, thanks for that.

[TUXs]

When I want to PvP, I play Aion, it matters

Maybe you should spend more time in Aion's forums then Bob.

[robertthebard]

Maybe you should spend more time in Aion's forums then Bob.

 

When I'm actually playing it for PvP, I'm too busy to be on the forums proclaiming doom. You see, it's not 1 2 3 go, there's no waiting in a queue, it's "there's the enemy, it's on". I realize this is a stretch for PvPers here, but there, when you're out and about on Star ranked officers, you can actually lose ranks, and the ability to equip gear when you lose, if your rank goes below the min rank required, so there's no time to be preaching about "the end of the world".

 

If, or when they make PvP relevant here, I'll have the same problem. Until then, not so much.

[TUXs]

When I'm actually playing it for PvP, I'm too busy to be on the forums proclaiming doom. You see, it's not 1 2 3 go, there's no waiting in a queue, it's "there's the enemy, it's on". I realize this is a stretch for PvPers here, but there, when you're out and about on Star ranked officers, you can actually lose ranks, and the ability to equip gear when you lose, if your rank goes below the min rank required, so there's no time to be preaching about "the end of the world".

 

If, or when they make PvP relevant here, I'll have the same problem. Until then, not so much.

Then make some suggestions HERE. PvP here needs help. Offer suggestions to improve THIS games PvP...nobody gives a flip about Aion's PvP here...take the good ideas they have and suggest how they may work HERE.

[robertthebard]

Then make some suggestions HERE. PvP here needs help. Offer suggestions to improve THIS games PvP...nobody gives a flip about Aion's PvP here...take the good ideas they have and suggest how they may work HERE.

 

I have, possibly in the very post you decided to cherry pick from. I've made the same ones before. PvP here has always lacked appeal for me, hence I've never set foot in a WZ. I never will, it's the same concept as organized duels, and frankly, when you know when it's starting, and when it's ending, and the main objectives are PvE based, it's not the same. So perhaps, instead of seeing what you want to see, read what's presented, and take it at face value, instead of deciding what it means, and where people should apply it.

 

I know that in this very thread I've given two examples of how Conquest could have been meaningful, and would have "spiced up" PvP. It would also make the "XX Guild controls this sector" mean something. You see, I know why PvP is struggling, I've laid that out too, in this thread, and while for the bulk of the community that PvPs that's still here WZs are the end all and be all of PvP, none of the PvPcentric players that followed me here found them in the least bit appealing and left. There are no consequences for failure, you can't lost gear or ranks, you either win, or you get a participation trophy, and frankly, none of the people that I've PvP'd with over the majority of the last two decades are the least bit interested in "you can't lose" scenarios.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

I hate instance warzones and never queue for them. I won't even do it to get the companions that need WZ participation. There's really nothing they can do with WZs that will ever make me want to play them.

 

How about rewards for open world PvP? The only games I've enjoyed PvP in were objective based, open world ones.

[TUXs]

I have, possibly in the very post you decided to cherry pick from. I've made the same ones before. PvP here has always lacked appeal for me, hence I've never set foot in a WZ. I never will, it's the same concept as organized duels, and frankly, when you know when it's starting, and when it's ending, and the main objectives are PvE based, it's not the same. So perhaps, instead of seeing what you want to see, read what's presented, and take it at face value, instead of deciding what it means, and where people should apply it.

 

I know that in this very thread I've given two examples of how Conquest could have been meaningful, and would have "spiced up" PvP. It would also make the "XX Guild controls this sector" mean something. You see, I know why PvP is struggling, I've laid that out too, in this thread, and while for the bulk of the community that PvPs that's still here WZs are the end all and be all of PvP, none of the PvPcentric players that followed me here found them in the least bit appealing and left. There are no consequences for failure, you can't lost gear or ranks, you either win, or you get a participation trophy, and frankly, none of the people that I've PvP'd with over the majority of the last two decades are the least bit interested in "you can't lose" scenarios.

Then I apologize as it sounds like we're very much in agreement with PvP (mostly).

 

My only disagreement is with not awarding 'participation', PvP is 100% dependent upon voluntary participation - but that can be saved for another discussion.

[robertthebard]

Then I apologize as it sounds like we're very much in agreement with PvP (mostly).

 

My only disagreement is with not awarding 'participation', PvP is 100% dependent upon voluntary participation - but that can be saved for another discussion.

 

My thinking is to make Conquest mean something. A guild gains control, it lasts until they are "dethroned" by another guild, and this dethroning is decided by duking it out in a special instance of the zone. They can choose to surrender it, and move on to another zone, or to defend it until they lose. Grant rewards commensurate with participation. If you have x kills, you gain comms accordingly. What this would do would make WZs a way to get gear for the Conquest battles, and, give consequences to PvP. Especially if a "tax" is applied to controlled zones, that players will never miss, as it was done in Rappelz for dungeon sieges. A percentage of the total currency drops was paid to the controlling guild, although they weren't removed from players.

 

This provides both incentive, and consequence to PvP, and makes Conquest literally mean something. This would make the more "hardcore" PvPcentric players willing to play more, even if they don't hit the WZs, because it matters. They have a chance to put their guild in a position to earn credits as a guild, instead of x percentage of the guild's membership contributing credits to ships, shs, etc. Losing would matter, because they'd lose that income, and would have to either retake that zone next week, or strike another one. Guilds should be limited to owning a single zone, and zones should be adjusted to reflect this. So maybe Taris has 3 total zones, for example.

 

You see, my disdain for PvP here isn't based on an overall disdain for PvP, it's based on "what's the point", because quite frankly, Aion has a similar set up with fortresses in the abyss, and zones scattered around the end game zones that can be "taken" by one faction or another. Winning means something, and so does losing. You can literally drive the better PvPers off in Aion, if they're ranked, by killing them enough times that they can't get that rank back, making them withdraw to protect themselves. That's sometimes easier said than done, but it can be done, thus adding real strategy to a pitched battle for control of an artifact, or a fortress. In it's current iteration, there is no point to PvP here, other than entertainment. That's valid, but it's not enough for some.

[TUXs]

My thinking is to make Conquest mean something...

*snip*

...

Wow...that actually sounds freaking cool. I WISH we had something like that here...PvP is a passion of mine and PvP here is rather dull...but that sounds extremely well designed.

[robertthebard]

Wow...that actually sounds freaking cool. I WISH we had something like that here...PvP is a passion of mine and PvP here is rather dull...but that sounds extremely well designed.

 

I can take no credit for these, as they do come from two other games that I have played, and played a lot of. This is what I was looking for when Conquest came out, imagine my disappointment.

[Warrgames]

My thinking is to make Conquest mean something. A guild gains control, it lasts until they are "dethroned" by another guild, and this dethroning is decided by duking it out in a special instance of the zone. They can choose to surrender it, and move on to another zone, or to defend it until they lose. Grant rewards commensurate with participation. If you have x kills, you gain comms accordingly. What this would do would make WZs a way to get gear for the Conquest battles, and, give consequences to PvP. Especially if a "tax" is applied to controlled zones, that players will never miss, as it was done in Rappelz for dungeon sieges. A percentage of the total currency drops was paid to the controlling guild, although they weren't removed from players.

 

This provides both incentive, and consequence to PvP, and makes Conquest literally mean something. This would make the more "hardcore" PvPcentric players willing to play more, even if they don't hit the WZs, because it matters. They have a chance to put their guild in a position to earn credits as a guild, instead of x percentage of the guild's membership contributing credits to ships, shs, etc. Losing would matter, because they'd lose that income, and would have to either retake that zone next week, or strike another one. Guilds should be limited to owning a single zone, and zones should be adjusted to reflect this. So maybe Taris has 3 total zones, for example.

 

You see, my disdain for PvP here isn't based on an overall disdain for PvP, it's based on "what's the point", because quite frankly, Aion has a similar set up with fortresses in the abyss, and zones scattered around the end game zones that can be "taken" by one faction or another. Winning means something, and so does losing. You can literally drive the better PvPers off in Aion, if they're ranked, by killing them enough times that they can't get that rank back, making them withdraw to protect themselves. That's sometimes easier said than done, but it can be done, thus adding real strategy to a pitched battle for control of an artifact, or a fortress. In it's current iteration, there is no point to PvP here, other than entertainment. That's valid, but it's not enough for some.

 

If this is what you are looking for in conquest. Look at skyforge.

[IslanderRebel]

here's TOR's future:

 

 

 

Keep it up , Fuzzball.

Don't bring any new content whatsoever into the game for a period of time and you'll get the above SOONER than later.

 

 

HNYMF

[foxxecho]

Vidi Caelum novummmmm

Terrra Novum aaaaAa DeoooOOooo

Primum caelum abiiiiiiiit,

Et prima terra abiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

 

 

Lulz! --I kill me!

[MadCuzBad]

Vidi Caelum novummmmm

Terrra Novum aaaaAa DeoooOOooo

Primum caelum abiiiiiiiit,

Et prima terra abiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

 

 

Lulz! --I kill me!

 

wut wut?