Does the Empire has better scientists then the Republic?

[adormitul]

I just noticed something the empire has managed awesome feats like saving Makeb or developing brain washing technology and all thanks to what seems to be very brilliant people. So do they have better scientists?

[ganondorq]

it's not really that they're smarter than republic scientists... it's that they get things done faster by being brutal in their methods for developing technology. human testing, without any care for the people they're testing on.

 

it's like the medical advances the nazis made during ww2. we could have made the same advances, but it would take us longer because we actually care about people.

[Joachimthbear]

You could just as well say that the Republic must have better scientists given that they developed the planet prison, shock drum, death mark and Hammer Station, while the Empire didn't. Overall I suspect they average out at about equal in their successful discoveries and developments. Edited March 10, 2016 by Joachimthbear

[adormitul]

You could just as well say that the Republic must have better scientists given that they developed the planet prison, shock drum, death mark and Hammer Station, while the Empire didn't. Overall I suspect they average out at about equal in their successful discoveries and developments.

 

What?The prison planet was mostly made by the rakkata the rest and the shock drum, death mark where made by a republic scientist and a imperial one who will undercover was still imperial. Hammer station true was made by the republic but the silencers where made by the imperials.

Edited March 10, 2016 by adormitul

[Joachimthbear]

What?The prison planet was mostly made by the rakkata the rest and the shock drum, death mark where made by a republic scientist and a imperial one who will undercover was still imperial. Hammer station true was made by the republic but the silencers where made by the imperials.

Planet prison, not prison planet. It, like all the projects Tarnis stole, was invented by Dr. Godera. Yes, the Empire built the silencers; the Republic built the shadow arsenal. A large part of the Sith Warrior storyline on Taris involves

stopping the Siantide project which was expected to give the Republic's military a huge step up in firepower.

And this is all only discussing military projects; it's probably fair to guess that the Republic put a greater proportion of their efforts into medical and pure science advances than the very military-oriented Empire did.

 

Both sides had their moments, in other words.

[adormitul]

Planet prison, not prison planet. It, like all the projects Tarnis stole, was invented by Dr. Godera. Yes, the Empire built the silencers; the Republic built the shadow arsenal. A large part of the Sith Warrior storyline on Taris involves

stopping the Siantide project which was expected to give the Republic's military a huge step up in firepower.

And this is all only discussing military projects; it's probably fair to guess that the Republic put a greater proportion of their efforts into medical and pure science advances than the very military-oriented Empire did.

 

Both sides had their moments, in other words.

 

No it was done by both.

[FlameYOL]

Well In Balmorra In Chapter I Of The Sith Inquisitor Class Story You Meet Na Imperial Scientist That Defected To The Galactic Republic,He Said Himself That He Had No Freedom,No Creativity Was Allowed To Run Wild Unless It Could Feed The Fire Of War,I Presume The Empire Focus All Science Mostly On Militaristic Matter While The Galactic Republic Let The Scientists Do Their Own Thing.

[Lazproperty]

it's not really that they're smarter than republic scientists... it's that they get things done faster by being brutal in their methods for developing technology. human testing, without any care for the people they're testing on.

 

it's like the medical advances the nazis made during ww2. we could have made the same advances, but it would take us longer because we actually care about people.

 

What about Belsavis where The Republic is showed to be just as ruthless as The Empire, only in secrecy ?

Edited March 11, 2016 by Lazproperty

[ganondorq]

What about Belsavis where The Republic is showed to be just as ruthless as The Empire, only in secrecy ?

 

that was bad, yeah. but it wasn't really anything medical, weapon, or interrogation related. it was pitting aliens against each other to see their weaknesses and strengths.

[Lazproperty]

that was bad, yeah. but it wasn't really anything medical, weapon, or interrogation related. it was pitting aliens against each other to see their weaknesses and strengths.

 

So what makes you think The Republic wouldn't do medical, weapon, or interrogation related stuff somewhere else in the same secrecy ? Because they clearly don't care about ethics as much as you would think if they're capable of commiting such atrocious prison experiments, they're also capable of ruthless logic like keeping the descendant of former criminals imprisoned because the prison is supposed to be secret. The big difference with The Empire is that they're hypocrites about it, even if they're still the lesser evil of the two.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Lazproperty

[Spetulhu]

So what makes you think The Republic wouldn't do medical, weapon, or interrogation related stuff somewhere else in the same secrecy ? Because they clearly don't care about ethics as much as you would think if they're capable of commiting such atrocious prison experiments.

 

Yes, the Republic is capable of atrocities - but they at least have to hide it or make it look legitimate through some contorted logic. I'd have to agree that Imperial scientists aren't necessarily better as such, but the Empire cares far less about ethics, image or collateral damage than the Republic (publicly) does. If we also consider canon to be Imp=darkside and Rep=lightside the Imp characters will support any project, no matter how atrocious, while Rep characters will want to shut down anything that smells even a bit off.

[Codedrago]

. If we also consider canon to be Imp=darkside and Rep=lightside the Imp characters will support any project, no matter how atrocious, while Rep characters will want to shut down anything that smells even a bit off.

 

You can't prove your point with 'if's, we can easily turn that around to say 'What if Republic=darkside and Empire=Lightside?'

[Lazproperty]

Yes, the Republic is capable of atrocities - but they at least have to hide it or make it look legitimate through some contorted logic. I'd have to agree that Imperial scientists aren't necessarily better as such, but the Empire cares far less about ethics, image or collateral damage than the Republic (publicly) does. If we also consider canon to be Imp=darkside and Rep=lightside the Imp characters will support any project, no matter how atrocious, while Rep characters will want to shut down anything that smells even a bit off.

 

What's worse though, commiting atrocities and assuming them for what they are whether they serve a purpose or just for the sake of it, or trying to justify it/making it look legitimate when it's not ?

 

Also imp and rep characters are just that, characters, individuals, not the faction as a whole. The events in Belsavis are 'canon' too and someone in the higher ups of the Republic ranks allowed these unethical and very official procedures to be in place so obviously they supported it.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Lazproperty

[eldefail]

I think it's a number of things that, scientifically, have given the Empire a MILITARY advantage. Yes, the Republic has committed atrocities, largely in secret or had to jump through some serious legal and social hoops to justify it or at least downplay it. The Empire, culturally, is largely free to commit atrocities for the betterment of the Empire as a whole, brazenly in the open. The citizenry either looks the other way or outright condones it.

 

Just because the Republic is CAPABLE of the same kind of atrocities doesn't mean they're necessarily in a position to commit them with any regularity compared to the Empire. They're heavily constrained by social expectations, bureaucratic red tape, and the law. Can you imagine how the general citizenry of the Republic might react to Belsavis? Probably a lot of talk of rights and cruel and unusual punishment. Imperials, meanwhile, are going "why didn't we think of that?"

 

Well In Balmorra In Chapter I Of The Sith Inquisitor Class Story You Meet Na Imperial Scientist That Defected To The Galactic Republic,He Said Himself That He Had No Freedom,No Creativity Was Allowed To Run Wild Unless It Could Feed The Fire Of War,I Presume The Empire Focus All Science Mostly On Militaristic Matter While The Galactic Republic Let The Scientists Do Their Own Thing.

 

I think this is where the Empire definitely gets a lot of its militaristic edge, but loses out on the arts, conservation, even medicine. There are so many missions for Imp players to basically militarize what could be life-saving technology to cure the sick, heal disfiguring injuries, and improve quality of life for Imperial citizens. Eventually that tech probably will trickle down to the citizens, but any kind of dark side character is likely sending at least some of these to the military first.

 

There's a quest-giver on Dromund Kaas, Ismar Brengle, who refers to herself as one of Lord Grathan's "indentured scientists." I wonder if this sentiment is common, to varying degrees.

 

So what makes you think The Republic wouldn't do medical, weapon, or interrogation related stuff somewhere else in the same secrecy ? Because they clearly don't care about ethics as much as you would think if they're capable of commiting such atrocious prison experiments, they're also capable of ruthless logic like keeping the descendant of former criminals imprisoned because the prison is supposed to be secret. The big difference with The Empire is that they're hypocrites about it, even if they're still the lesser evil of the two.

 

Again, they're also restricted by a number of societal and legal factors that typically prevent the Republic from committing these kinds of atrocities with anywhere near the same regularity or flippant disregard for sentient life as the Empire. The Empire only cares about Imperial citizens, and even they aren't entirely safe from the Empire's unethical R&D methods.

 

If the Empire were to pit different species against one another in a survival of the fittest contest for the sake of research Imperial citizens probably wouldn't bat an eye. This is a culture that considers slaves to be disposable and easily replaceable. While there are undoubtedly many Imperials who do value sentient life, we'd probably find most of them still consider the Empire's methods a necessary evil. I can't really back this up with anything, it's just supposition based on impressions I got from several playthroughs of the game.

 

There's a Bounty Hunter quest giver on Balmorra who talks about his daughter, a Sith, being a disgrace, which will bring ruin down upon not only her, but her entire family because that's Sith politics. The hunter can reply "that's a stupid way to run a planet" and he retorts with "you work for the empire you have, not the empire you WISH you had.

 

Also, I've dug up an older post of mine that's tangentially related to this topic and might interest somebody. In order to keep the citizens looking the other way while the Sith commit so many acts of brutality and barbarism not only against mere slaves, but frequently even against Imperial citizens, especially their own military, I imagine the Sith not only have to maintain one hell of a cult of personality, but provide a truckload of kickbacks and benefits. Again, this is only tangentially related to the discussion here, I thought I'd bring it up because I think the biggest difference between each faction's approach to science depends very heavily on the type of society and culture they each foster.

[Spetulhu]

Also imp and rep characters are just that, characters, individuals, not the faction as a whole. The events in Belsavis are 'canon' too and someone in the higher ups of the Republic ranks allowed these unethical and very official procedures to be in place so obviously they supported it.

 

All too true - but the average Republic citizen is much more likely to object to such practices. The higher-ups that think it's the way to get things done actually have to hide it in places like Belsavis. Senatorial seal and such, some line General/Admiral or research chief that got the idea would end up prosecuted for war crimes or crimes against sentient life in short order.

 

In the Empire he'd get punished only if there were no useful enough results.

[Lazproperty]

All too true - but the average Republic citizen is much more likely to object to such practices. The higher-ups that think it's the way to get things done actually have to hide it in places like Belsavis. Senatorial seal and such, some line General/Admiral or research chief that got the idea would end up prosecuted for war crimes or crimes against sentient life in short order.

 

In the Empire he'd get punished only if there were no useful enough results.

 

Yes that's true, I just don't think much of this issue from a simple citizen POV because they're aren't the ones in charge by definition, they don't get to make rules or decisions, only conform to it. It doesn't really matter that they are ethical and decent people because they don't get to have a say when their leaders really want something done (therefore in secrecy, behind their back). The true nature of the Republic or any kind of civilization to me is revealed by their leader's actions and intentions, not the reactions of the common people which is kinda irrelevant and in most cases will be predictable and similar IMO, and unsurprinsingly like most governments The Republic is revealed to be atleast somewhat corrupted in leadership and not as virtuous, perfect and tolerant as they pretend and appear to be in public. Probably even more so now with Saresh who's completely bonkers and herself acting in the shadows behind a puppet.

 

Which is not a bad thing in itself actually I'm not criticizing it, it's good, greyer, and completely plausible, smarter too. And they're still far less evil than The Empire as a whole, I just don't appreciate this whole 'Republic good, Empire evil, black and white' manichean view which is unfortunately way too present and central in the SW universe, even if this game makes a nice attempt to blur the line.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Lazproperty

[phalczen]

The thing is, even if it is a cursory sense, the Republic has checks and balances and accountability for its actions. We see this not only on the side quest in High Security on Belsavis, and the Heroic2 mission in the bonus area of Belsavis, but

also throughout the Trooper story.

Sure, there are lapses in judgement, those two aforementioned quests and

most of chapter 2-3 of Smuggler story.

 

 

But in the Sith Empire, if you don't like what someone is telling you to do, you get decapitated, force choked, or electrocuted.

 

I do find it interesting that the Hutts, for all their avarice, were able to weaponize and utilize Isotope 5 far more quickly than the imperials and yet

the imperials gain control of the isotope 5 supply by the end of the Makeb story

but still only have a

"few ships retrofitted with isotope 5" by the time Lana rescues the Outlander.

 

 

Who really has the superior engineers? After all, the head of your Alliance Research Division is

Dr. Oggurobb, the Hutt scientist behind all the Isotope 5 engineering on Makeb

, not someone from either main faction.

 

Most likely there are brilliant minds on both sides, but like modern day societies, Republic laws prohibit certain types of experimentation. In our real word, stem cell research is a perfect example. United States laws prohibit the use of stem cells from embryos, so scientists found a way to stimulate a differentiated cell to go back to being a stem cell, and the supply problem is solved. The need was fulfilled and the law was followed, it just took more time. I imagine the Republic is similar.

 

Does the Empire have better scientists? No, just less ethical ones, or ones less willing to die for their ethics, or both. That being said,

two of the four researchers (Lokin, Drellik) recruited into your Alliance as of Chapter 12 are Imperials, with Hemdil Tre being more or less neutral and Yuun of course Republic.

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by phalczen

[RandomName_Ru]

I may be wrong, but I think some of the Makeb Strike Team do note that creating big droids was not the best move, considering the near magical potential of the Isotope-5. Here is a link that shows what Imperials have been doing with it: http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20140407

 

As for Belsavis: there was an NPC conversation (the one that triggered as you pass them) between two Imperial scientists: one was expressing his shock at the nature of experiments and the other was lamenting that he had the very same idea several years ago and it was rejected.

Edited March 12, 2016 by RandomName_Ru

[JediAkemi]

As for Belsavis: there was an NPC conversation (the one that triggered as you pass them) between two Imperial scientists: one was expressing his shock at the nature of experiments and the other was lamenting that he had the very same idea several years ago and it was rejected.

 

Rejected due to costs, not ethics. The Empire didn't have a big enough facility that they wanted to devote to such a project.

[cool-dude]

No.

The empire is less restricted when it comes to mad science. The republic is just as capable of producing weapons of mass destruction, but their political structure just doesn't allow certain things.

[RandomName_Ru]

Rejected due to costs, not ethics. The Empire didn't have a big enough facility that they wanted to devote to such a project.

 

Yay, someone else who pays attention to the little chats ^^ But yes, now then you mention it, it was not for ethical reasons indeed. Then again, the other scientist do show some concern for ethics.

 

It looks like there are brilliant minds on the both sides, there are mad and end-justify-the means on both sides, there are some horrid research going on on both sides. Republic gets the “Sacking of Coruscant must never happen again” and Empire do value the tradition of blasting everything into submission.

 

Let's see... Republic: Shadow Arsenal, Eclipse Squad, The Domination Experiments, Siantide, Hammer Station.

 

Empire: Seeds of Rage, Gauntlet, Castellian Mind Control, Silencer, War Machine.

 

I am not sure whom to give a credit for Death Mark, Barrager, Power Guards, Shock Drum, Desolator (and it's spin off Firestrom).

 

I guess the General from Black Talon was correct about the war with no winner if Republic and Empire will go at each other again.

[Codedrago]

I guess the General from Black Talon was correct about the war with no winner if Republic and Empire will go at each other again.

 

Speaking of the general, anyone else surprised his monolouge wasn't a trailer line?

"If you'd seen what both sides were planning... You wouldn't want to restart this war. They're building super weapons, missiles that darken skies... Shields that encapsulate planets. They're planning to raize worlds, annihilate entire civilisations!"

[adormitul]

Speaking of the general, anyone else surprised his monolouge wasn't a trailer line?

"If you'd seen what both sides were planning... You wouldn't want to restart this war. They're building super weapons, missiles that darken skies... Shields that encapsulate planets. They're planning to raize worlds, annihilate entire civilisations!"

 

How did he knew all that it happened of course we survived it but still how did he knew was he not a normal human?

[Codedrago]

How did he knew all that it happened of course we survived it but still how did he knew was he not a normal human?

 

...Try typng that out again. I can't understand what you're saying

[RandomName_Ru]

How did he knew all that it happened of course we survived it but still how did he knew was he not a normal human?

 

He WAS a hight ranking member of Imperial army and knew about some doomsday devices Empire works on? And Imperial Intelligence is good enough to get some info on what Republic is up to, so that was probably also not a big secret to people with hight clearance.

 

Also, if you choose the specific dialog option Inquisitor will say something like: "Military man, so sad and fickle, the Force is weak in your blood". I guess that coupled with the knowledge he had it could give him some very vivid nightmares. If not, I bet he had nightmares anyway.

 

Even more off-topic: I like to think that all that was planned by good old Vitiate. He wanted as much deaths on grand scale as possible and he planted some seeds.