JennyFlynn Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 Koth is a character that desperately needed the kind of deeper/more meaningful conversations with companions that we got with our companions in the class stories, especially when you would have a series of talks that explored a particular companion's past or motivations, whatever. Maybe Bioware wanted him to be a blind Valkorion/Vitiate loyalist regardless, but at least it would have provided the character with time and room to explain himself, provide nuance to his views and maybe change his mind. I'm with you there, very much so. That's one thing I desperately miss when transitioning from 'old' content to especially KotFE. Lana and Theron came easy but I've been through so much with them already, all of my characters whether R/I or LS/DS.. they all see Lana and Theron as family whether dating them or not. Senya has grown on me quite easily.. do my characters fully trust her? Not quite yet but the few conversations you have with her and what you see of her are strong enough to sell you on her, in my experience. She's strong, pragmatic yet caring, she can and will do what must be done even if it's personally upsetting for her.. she understands the cost of all this far better than Koth does. She doesn't tantrum and cry over the citizens of Zakuul and is even willing to take down her own children. She also has the benefit of knowing Valkorion as the man she loved, as well as his darker and colder side. This makes her easier to accept and care for than Koth and I feel like these things is where the writers failed Koth in a way. Other than him confessing about deserting the military, you don't see a deeper more personal side to him really. Not in the sense that Senya's willing to tell you about her children, about her falling in love with Valkorion, about her marriage and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDebris Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Personally I didn't like Koth because he was trying too hard with all the witty lines. After a while it was wearing down and tiring as his character was overusing them, he tried too hard to sound witty and clever and I feel that he came across as so forced because of it. This, big time. In addition, I got the distinct impression that Koth was the star of a movie playing in his head, making him presumptive and overestimate himself. "I'm the best pilot" then crashes ship. "I know how to talk to people" then we get sentenced to death. "I'm not as uptight as the Outlander" then freaks out because Senya's out of his line of sight. And let's not forget the Gravestone. Four of us find it at the exact same time, four of us clear it out, four of us supply it, gather parts for it, and repair it, but in Koth's mind it's obviously his (Yeah, I presumed it was mine, but since I pay the subscription fee that's only fair). I was so pleased that one of the responses I got when he left was "good riddance" because it was precisely what I was thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathanmirror Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Koth is a character that desperately needed the kind of deeper/more meaningful conversations with companions that we got with our companions in the class stories, especially when you would have a series of talks that explored a particular companion's past or motivations, whatever. Maybe Bioware wanted him to be a blind Valkorion/Vitiate loyalist regardless, but at least it would have provided the character with time and room to explain himself, provide nuance to his views and maybe change his mind. He definitely needs more development. We have six chapters to go, so hopefully we'll find out more about him and get to see his views given a good shake. Edited February 13, 2016 by leviathanmirror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksen Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I'm trying to understand why everyone has such a problem with Koth. Yep, same here OP. I really don't get it. I think he's a character that feel realistically complex. Thank you for this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaxSithari Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I kept getting "Koth blocked" by him when trying to make time with Lana. Reason enough. HA! My guild came up with a different notion for "Kothblock"-ing. Something about him becoming a raid boss that everyone keeps the lockout on, so we can continue to kill him. Here's a thought for the dislike: Koth, as all of of those Zakuul citizens, have terminal cases of Affluenza. Having been immersed in a perfect, untouchable society has made them blind to others' realities. Different POVs, the inability to tell right from wrong (how citizens are in Chapter X, and simply the lack of empathy showcase this spoiled, terrible perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannar Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 i have this feeling, if i keep him around.. at one point in the story he will betray me / my alliance, i saw it in his face during chapter X ... This, I get this feeling as well and not just from chapter 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nothing_Shines Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Lots of good reasons to despise Koth in this thread. I approve. The only thing that was more satisfying than murdering the support structure of the Zakuulan military so spectacularly with my favorite girl Kaliyo, was seeing Koth's spluttering face after the fact and telling him to take a hike. The only thing better than that would have been to follow it up by booting him out an airlock. Last time I checked, I'm fighting to liberate the galaxy from an insane fascist dictator and his armada of droids and jackbooted thugs. That dictator burns worlds for kicks. His Force Gestapo work hand in hand with religious fanatics to oppress trillions. His people worship him as the son of a living god. Guess what? I'm here to show them how wrong they are to back that ronto. You don't invade my galaxy, kill my people, interrupt my vacation with Lana Banana and force me to lead a rebellion for free and not expect me to stomp a mud hole in your dystopian ***. I'm the Champion of the Great Hunt. I assassinated a Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. The Dark Council defers to my judgement on matters of the highest import. I am the greatest bounty hunter with the coolest armor the galaxy will see until some other guy makes small talk with a Sith, turns in exactly one bounty and gets knocked into a disturbing orafice in the Dune Sea by a blind man. Koth Vortana is lucky I let him help rescue me and his people are blessed by the Living Force that writer fiat doesn't give me carte blanche to fight this war the way it should be fought. Wake up, Koth. This is an insurrection, not Zakuulan Idol. No one cares you grew up with a holo of Valkorian glancing dismissively in your general direction on your nightstand. You're a traitor to your people. You betrayed your oath. You can't go home again. You're supposed to be on our side now and all you can do is keep whining about the good old days around people who have watched their worlds burn beneath the guns of the Eternal Empire you hold in such awe. Then you go and try to steal my ship and betray the entire Alliance. Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a line snaking throughout Alliance HQ full of people waiting to punch you in the face before I see if you can breathe vacuum. I hate you. You are a weak fool. I'd trade you for Darth Marr in a heartbeat. I'd trade you for Jaxo, and I don't even know who that is. Actually, that's it - you're the Grand Chance Cube of companions. I bet you wonder why people groan when you enter the room. It's because you had potential until you opened your stupid mouth and all the possibilities collapsed into the one truth: you are bronze poop. KOTFE gets 0/10 if there isn't a Renegade Interrupt to execute you by the end of this story. Edited February 13, 2016 by Nothing_Shines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 @nothing_shines That was beautiful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyFlynn Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 Lots of good reasons to despise Koth in this thread. I approve. The only thing that was more satisfying than murdering the support structure of the Zakuulan military so spectacularly with my favorite girl Kaliyo, was seeing Koth's spluttering face after the fact and telling him to take a hike. The only thing better than that would have been to follow it up by booting him out an airlock. Last time I checked, I'm fighting to liberate the galaxy from an insane fascist dictator and his armada of droids and jackbooted thugs. That dictator burns worlds for kicks. His Force Gestapo work hand in hand with religious fanatics to oppress trillions. His people worship him as the son of a living god. Guess what? I'm here to show them how wrong they are to back that ronto. You don't invade my galaxy, kill my people, interrupt my vacation with Lana Banana and force me to lead a rebellion for free and not expect me to stomp a mud hole in your dystopian ***. I'm the Champion of the Great Hunt. I assassinated a Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. The Dark Council defers to my judgement on matters of the highest import. I am the greatest bounty hunter with the coolest armor the galaxy will see until some other guy makes small talk with a Sith, turns in exactly one bounty and gets knocked into a disturbing orafice in the Dune Sea by a blind man. Koth Vortana is lucky I let him help rescue me and his people are blessed by the Living Force that writer fiat doesn't give me carte blanche to fight this war the way it should be fought. Wake up, Koth. This is an insurrection, not Zakuulan Idol. No one cares you grew up with a holo of Valkorian glancing dismissively in your general direction on your nightstand. You're a traitor to your people. You betrayed your oath. You can't go home again. You're supposed to be on our side now and all you can do is keep whining about the good old days around people who have watched their worlds burn beneath the guns of the Eternal Empire you hold in such awe. Then you go and try to steal my ship and betray the entire Alliance. Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a line snaking throughout Alliance HQ full of people waiting to punch you in the face before I see if you can breathe vacuum. I hate you. You are a weak fool. I'd trade you for Darth Marr in a heartbeat. I'd trade you for Jaxo, and I don't even know who that is. Actually, that's it - you're the Grand Chance Cube of companions. I bet you wonder why people groan when you enter the room. It's because you had potential until you opened your stupid mouth and all the possibilities collapsed into the one truth: you are bronze poop. KOTFE gets 0/10 if there isn't a Renegade Interrupt to execute you by the end of this story. Ok I don't fully agree BUT.. that made me laugh and clap in the best way, well done. And uh, I'd trade in almost anyone to have Darth Marr back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwwwwvwwwww Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Koth is a whiny little hippy man bun wearing pos. I'm guessing that's why all the hate? Edited February 13, 2016 by wwwwwvwwwww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefla Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Aw I actually love good old Captain FatFingers ^_^ The characters that end up being popular are the ones that are funny and don't disagree (or at least not strongly) with your character. The ones that tend to be unpopular are the ones that have their own strong opinions and will be confrontational if the PC does something they don't like. Multiply this by 1000 if the character is male and the player is also male. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nothing_Shines Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Aw I actually love good old Captain FatFingers ^_^ The characters that end up being popular are the ones that are funny and don't disagree (or at least not strongly) with your character. The ones that tend to be unpopular are the ones that have their own strong opinions and will be confrontational if the PC does something they don't like. Multiply this by 1000 if the character is male and the player is also male. Ahhh, sexism. It was about time an -ism cropped up. I'm a male and have four sets of all eight classes, alternating L/D and M/F. So which companions should I like or not like, now? Writing, VA and actions taken in context hold sway over whether I like an NPC or not each playthrough. Quinn loved every choice some of my SW's made. He still betrayed them all. That's a writing and actions in context failure. I do not like Quinn, even though I sometimes choose to marry him. He can be quite charming, after all. Skadge loves my greedy DS bounty hunters as much as is possible for scum like him to love and not follow through on murder. I still hate him. Actions and writing take him down every time. His whole "arc" is lazy and makes little sense. Khem always wants to eat my SI, but even when I go LS and he gets pissed about every non-murdery choice I make, I still love him because his writing is awesome and he makes sense in the context of a monster that eats Force users. I could go on through all of them, like most anyone else could. Koth has the distinction of not only being one of the worst companions in the game, but a forced companion for every single class moving forward. The fact that his VA sells the role only makes it worse that he's poorly written and his actions are hard to swallow in context. Even when he agrees with me I can tell he'd rather push me down an open elevator shaft and step onto center stage himself, because he thinks he could do it all better. Edited February 13, 2016 by Nothing_Shines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkHelsing Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Aw I actually love good old Captain FatFingers ^_^ The characters that end up being popular are the ones that are funny and don't disagree (or at least not strongly) with your character. The ones that tend to be unpopular are the ones that have their own strong opinions and will be confrontational if the PC does something they don't like. Multiply this by 1000 if the character is male and the player is also male. I'm female and my characters are male, I still don't find Koth all that great. I tolerate Koth like I tolerate a screaming child. He has his uses, but even those are limited. The Alliance can survive without him. Regardless he stayed with me due to me not really seeing the point of destroying the city I wish to someday rule. Koth can worship Valk as much as he wants. Chances are I can twist that to my advantage later on. He wants to hear Valks words? He can have them... with a little twist from my warrior/inquistor to suit their needs. To the point though, this has nothing to do with sexism. To jump the gun and go there was just, eugh. Edited February 13, 2016 by StarkHelsing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkwords Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Koth has a bad attitude and is a crybaby or threatening to bail if he doesn't get his way. I had enough issues with Skadge, who I would gladly push out an airlock. He remains caged in my bounty area and Koth is going there next. Edited February 13, 2016 by Darkwords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiesu Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Because people are just roleplaying their DS Sith Lords on forums too. Nah, people dont understand his point of view is the reason. This is what makes Koths writing so genius, its hard for the player to understand where he is coming from when the player comes from a complete opposite situation, and think he is the QQbaby, when the player actually just dont get him. People always mock what they dont understand, its human nature. Edited February 13, 2016 by Kiesu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I wouldn't call making a character hard to understand "genius". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myracarrah Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Aw I actually love good old Captain FatFingers ^_^ The characters that end up being popular are the ones that are funny and don't disagree (or at least not strongly) with your character. The ones that tend to be unpopular are the ones that have their own strong opinions and will be confrontational if the PC does something they don't like. Multiply this by 1000 if the character is male and the player is also male. As a female gamer, who plays female characters... I still hate him. He sucks. I listed my reasons. The Voice Actor gets major props, and the cinema guys also get major props for making Koth the terrible repulsive character he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiesu Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) I wouldn't call making a character hard to understand "genius". this is why his writing is genius. Not the character, his writing. Edited February 13, 2016 by Kiesu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iankalo Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Because he is annoying just like Satele and Theron Shan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 this is why his writing is genius. Not the character, his writing. I was referring to the writing, not the character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I wouldn't call making a character hard to understand "genius". Koth is quite easy to understand, he's a fanatic who has built up this image of Valkorion as a grand savor and cannot cope with that image being threatened by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Koth is quite easy to understand, he's a fanatic who has built up this image of Valkorion as a grand savor and cannot cope with that image being threatened by others. Well there's that too. Some people just want to put all the dislike for Koth on the player, instead of on the plain facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Well there's that too. Some people just want to put all the dislike for Koth on the player, instead of on the plain facts. It's reminiscence of when people try to defend Anders from DA2. Actually it's reminiscence off all story-wise defenses of Da2... ''You just don't understand him!" Not to say this reflects all of that game's defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMCA Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 He really is one of the best written characters this game has produced. If we were born in Zakuul, Koth would be a hero to us. Not even just a hero, a legend. That's exactly why my more pragmatic characters keep him happy and don't touch Zakuulan civilians unless absolutely necessary. If we get this guy on the HoloNet to stir things up on Zakuul against Arcann, the people will rally. Of course, we are not from Zakuul and his entire belief system plays into three of our nastier negative emotions. Here's a list: Envy - We know he and Lana had a thing. Zakuul really is a superior society and his pride in his homeland can trigger us. He also has a holier than thou attitude that can make us jealous of his principles. His complete faith in destiny is also something that most ppl can't identify with and might be jealous of.Fear - He's deserted before and for idealistic reasons, so people who don't agree with him know he'll betray us. We also know that most people on Zakuul feel the way he does about their society, which makes us wonder if our efforts can ever succeed. Anger - The big one. He hand waves the atrocities Valkorion performed on the Core Worlds like a spoiled child and even in front of two people who were on the planet he devoured. He judges everyone so quickly and accuses others of his own issues - Senya's narrow minded? What about you Koth? How are your people's prosperity so much more important than the TRILLIONS who have died because of your "immortal Emperor?" When you add all that up you take someone who you would never feel that way about if you were Zakuulan, and then he becomes this lightning rod of our fears, envy, and hatred. Despite all that, there's no question - Koth is a valuable member of the Alliance. That guy talking to Zakuulans is a propaganda gold mine. He's charismatic enough to have people follow him. He can add a "morality" to what the Alliance does that can put many in the Republic military, the Jedi, etc at ease. The point being, Koth triggers us and it's a test of our level-headedness. Is what we're doing really worth making innocent people suffer? What does it matter if Zakuulans prosper? Why do people who are unarmed and just living the high life have to die for us? Does that not make us the savages Arcann accuses us of? Pretty philosophical stuff. TOP NOTCH BW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Really? Because watching the cutscenes on YouTube, he just comes across as a myopic twit. Anger - The big one. He hand waves the atrocities Valkorion performed on the Core Worlds like a spoiled child and even in front of two people who were on the planet he devoured. He judges everyone so quickly and accuses others of his own issues - Senya's narrow minded? What about you Koth? How are your people's prosperity so much more important than the TRILLIONS who have died because of your "immortal Emperor?" Also the only valid one. So much of the rest is just trying to chalk negative opinions of Koth up to something other than Koth himself as a character. Edited February 13, 2016 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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