Why such Koth hatred?

[DarthDymond]

So as long as Hilter was good to some people its ok to ignore all the evil he did?

We're really Godwin-ing a discussion of how annoying Koth is?

[ClaytonL]

Wait...

 

Did you not get the ''Koth tries to steal the gravestone and leave the Alliance'' ending for Chapter X?

 

no.. but i will 100% once i am doing the story with my DS Jedi

[JennyFlynn]

I "hate" him because he is so devoted to worshipping at, and polishing that pedestal he has Valkorian on, he adamantly refuses to give a damn about anything but his own perceptions & "people".

 

Everyone not Zakuluan be damned.

 

Mr "I dont care that the wonderul fell from the heavens and blessed us Zakulians with his glorious presence Valkorian killed BILLIONS of your people. They werent MY people after all. " can just keep flying away in that shuttle of his right out of wild space into a black hole.

 

Yet Lana's become a good friend of his. He risked his own butt helping save this 'Outlander' who he didn't know at all other than Lana's story and who he knew killed his beloved Valkorion for which he never even judges us btw. And I don't think he's ever said that he condones everything Valkorion did to us and our people, or shrugged off all the deaths we've suffered. He seemed pretty pissed about the 5 worlds that got hit in C10 by Arcann so he does care plenty. You can still like someone without approving of their every action eventho Valk's were.. disastrous actions.

[JennyFlynn]

Something people haven't pointed out yet but rubbed me completely the wrong way on my second playthrough of KOTFE was the way he treated Senya despite having so much in common with her. They both deserted Zakuul because of their disillusionment with its new brutality yet Koth holds Senya in such distrust and contempt because she took longer to desert than he did. Basically Koth acted as an agent of Zakuul himself yet if one of the people from the worlds he attacked treated him in the same childish way he treats Senya I bet he'd not take it well.

I don't hate Koth but between that and his unwillingness to listen to the player and Lana about Valkorian (can we please have the option to drag him to what's left of Ziost?!) he really irks me at times.

 

The bold part, so much. I've literally sat here going over who he is, where he comes from with his behavior and his naivety regarding Valkorion and thought "Can't I just SHOW him Ziost? Isn't there any reports/recordings of what happened to make him actually witness it?". I wish.

 

As far as his attitude towards Senya goes.. I don't think he dislikes her for deserting much in the same way he did. He dislikes her because she chased him and his men down several times and left them bloody, perceiving Koth & his crew as traitors eventhough she herself has walked out now too. If anything, Senya is the conceited one in that story.

[leviathanmirror]

The bold part, so much. I've literally sat here going over who he is, where he comes from with his behavior and his naivety regarding Valkorion and thought "Can't I just SHOW him Ziost? Isn't there any reports/recordings of what happened to make him actually witness it?". I wish.

 

As far as his attitude towards Senya goes.. I don't think he dislikes her for deserting much in the same way he did. He dislikes her because she chased him and his men down several times and left them bloody, perceiving Koth & his crew as traitors eventhough she herself has walked out now too. If anything, Senya is the conceited one in that story.

 

You'd still have to prove that Vitiate and Valkorion are the same person if there were recordings of Ziost. The only people who really know are Force sensitives who have felt both Vitiate's and Valkorion's presence. Even non-Force sensitive player characters have to take Marr at his word that Valkorion is Vitiate until Valkorion basically confirms it by talking about who he is and what he's done.

[Newyankalt]

Next time I see him I'll personally oversee his execution... Never liked Koth much

[JennyFlynn]

You'd still have to prove that Vitiate and Valkorion are the same person if there were recordings of Ziost. The only people who really know are Force sensitives who have felt both Vitiate's and Valkorion's presence. Even non-Force sensitive player characters have to take Marr at his word that Valkorion is Vitiate until Valkorion basically confirms it by talking about who he is and what he's done.

 

Yeah and I think that's another part of why it's so hard for him to understand where the Outlander and Lana are coming from. Even if he were to believe that a powerful Emperor named Vitiate decimated Ziost and did tons of other bad stuff (and for all we know he does believe that part).. how do you convince him, a non-force user, that Vitiate and Valkorion are one and the same? He seems to understand verrry little about the Force, he was baffled at the Jedi/Sith Outlander along with Lana and Senya lifting the Gravestone out of the swamp.

[PorsaLindahl]

The problem I have with Koth is that he refuses to listen to any reason about how Valkorian may not be such a good guy. Even with Senya, who was *********** married to the guy and had kids with him, he sneers at her because she isn't downright fanatical. I think that's the problem I have with Koth. He's a Valkorian fanatic, who won't listen to any reason about how Valkorian wasn't such a great guy.

 

And I can understand him being upset with the DS choices, especially when they hurt his people, but he thinks there are two ways to approach any problem: His way, or the wrong way. He doesn't advise you on anything. He basically tells you "You are wrong for not doing what I say."

 

This. Talking to Koth is like talking to graffiti on a wall that reads "Valkorian is Great!" No matter what you say to that wall, it's going to keep reading "Valkorian is Great!" His naivete goes beyond reason. He can't see the forest for the trees. And he refuses to budge in his view of things. So he can rot as far as I care.

[Billupsat]

The problem I have with Koth is that he refuses to listen to any reason about how Valkorian may not be such a good guy. Even with Senya, who was *********** married to the guy and had kids with him, he sneers at her because she isn't downright fanatical. I think that's the problem I have with Koth. He's a Valkorian fanatic, who won't listen to any reason about how Valkorian wasn't such a great guy.

 

And I can understand him being upset with the DS choices, especially when they hurt his people, but he thinks there are two ways to approach any problem: His way, or the wrong way. He doesn't advise you on anything. He basically tells you "You are wrong for not doing what I say."

 

You know the non-Nazi German's felt the same way about Hitler? It took a lot to convince some of them how horrible he was, its incredibly easy to make a parallel between them and Koth.

[Pagy]

if i was alone in a room with mako, koth, hitler and stalin and given a gun with 4 bullets

 

i would shoot koth and mako twice

[Petrockss]

He tried to steal the Gravestone and he's a douche.

 

Next time I see him I'll personally oversee his execution... Never liked Koth much

 

^^ This. Wait I won't be around for that. My sub ends in 2 weeks.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Petrockss

[leviathanmirror]

Yeah and I think that's another part of why it's so hard for him to understand where the Outlander and Lana are coming from. Even if he were to believe that a powerful Emperor named Vitiate decimated Ziost and did tons of other bad stuff (and for all we know he does believe that part).. how do you convince him, a non-force user, that Vitiate and Valkorion are one and the same? He seems to understand verrry little about the Force, he was baffled at the Jedi/Sith Outlander along with Lana and Senya lifting the Gravestone out of the swamp.

 

He's very much set up to frustrate the player on that front. They just can't prove it and it's a hard thing to believe without proof. And yeah, I don't think he really grasps what the Force is capable of. He's probably seen it used plenty but that doesn't really give him an understanding of it. I doubt he's ever seen anyone possessed or a Force user controlling more than one body at a time either.

[Codedrago]

He's very much set up to frustrate the player on that front. They just can't prove it and it's a hard thing to believe without proof. And yeah, I don't think he really grasps what the Force is capable of. He's probably seen it used plenty but that doesn't really give him an understanding of it. I doubt he's ever seen anyone possessed or a Force user controlling more than one body at a time either.

 

The Outlander has Valkorion in their head, which Koth knows and believes. But he refuses to believe that you would know what Valkorion wants...Well, when it goes against Koth's ideas. Koth sometimes asks the Outlander what Valkorion thinks of all this, but will instantly put his hands over his ears if it's anything bad.

[Lunafox]

When I first saw Koth, I thought, well there's a nice looking guy, looks like an interesting character, and I might pair him up with one of my bounty hunter ladies. I thought it was kind of nifty that he looked like a rugged space pilot, goggles and all. Then...he opened his mouth. And it went downhill from there.

 

But what really blew my mind was how he could completely over look that the Emperor was a planet eating scumbag that had killed billions over his career, for the simple reason, that it wasn't his people that got mistreated or murdered.

 

It was like saying Hitler was a great guy. Sure...maybe if you're German (and not even all of them believed it). Now ask a Jewish person what they thought...or an Austrian, or any number of other people that got pressed into a war because of him.

[leviathanmirror]

The Outlander has Valkorion in their head, which Koth knows and believes. But he refuses to believe that you would know what Valkorion wants...Well, when it goes against Koth's ideas. Koth sometimes asks the Outlander what Valkorion thinks of all this, but will instantly put his hands over his ears if it's anything bad.

 

The Outlander has never told Koth what Valkorion thinks, so there's no evidence of that. I do think Koth would struggle if the Outlander told him what Valkorion has said. Because it isn't coming straight from Valkorion but rather through a filter and that filter may well hate Valkorion.

 

Again, the Outlander has no way at all to prove what they would hypothetically tell Koth about Valkorion is actually true. It relies entirely on Koth taking the Outlander's word over the entirety of his lived experience. It's not an easy thing to do.

[Nmyownworld]

We're really Godwin-ing a discussion of how annoying Koth is?

So it seems.

So as long as Hilter was good to some people its ok to ignore all the evil he did?

The Alliance has to convince Koth, and the people of Zakuul, of Valkorion’s atrocities. That hasn’t happened yet. “But Koth, we told you that Valkorion killed billions of people.” How is that statement alone supposed to convince Koth, let alone the rest of the Zakuul population, that Valkorion is a dangerous monster.

 

Holos of the destruction can be shown, and Koth could be taken on a trip to Ziost. Still, it’s relative strangers’ hearsay without solid proof of the cause of the destruction. Sure, something happened on Ziost, but not proof of who did it.

 

At this point in KotFE everything is about going against Arcann. The immediacy of overthrowing Arcann’s rule is foremost. When the story gets to the point where Arcann is defeated (and I think he will be at some point), then things will develop down a different path. Right now, Koth is trying to help his people, and the Alliance. And trying to prevent the Alliance from killing his people.

 

So far, Koth has done nothing against the Alliance or the Commander. Nor has the Alliance concretely provided anything that supports their claims about Valkorion. Even the existence of the Alliance isn't proof. What happened to the Empire and Republic occurred during Arcann's rule.

[Myracarrah]

Reasons to hate Koth

1) He claims the Gravestone

2) He refuses to let anyone else pilot the Gravestone

3) He refuses to listen to the idea that Valkorian might have been a jerk. "He blew up an entire planet!" "But he was always nice to me..."

4) He finds out an undead spirit has crawled into your brain and his response is basically "Hey neat! Can I talk to my idol now?"

5) He never flinches at the destruction of and subjugation of the Outlander's worlds, but flips out if you let a glowing ball fall on a city while escaping a madwoman.

6) You go to investigate a lead with Senya at the Heralds location, and he horns in saying how much greater he is and then gets mad if you disagree.

7) He treats Senya like dirt, because she as a police type didn't desert until later.

8) Koth finds out that Arcann blew up 5 of the Outlander's coreworlds. And the Outlander destroyed a slum city. His response is "I can't believe you are so evil! I hate you!" and stomps off.

9) He tries to steal the Gravestone, and when that fails, steals a shuttle.

 

Basically I hate Koth because he entirely discounts my character's experiences with the Emperor. He refuses to believe other people can defect too. He can't see the harm done to the Outlander's worlds, but cries if a Zakuulian chips a fingernail. And best reason of all to hate him... He won't let Scorpio integrate with the Gravestone.

[Codedrago]

The Outlander has never told Koth what Valkorion thinks, so there's no evidence of that. I do think Koth would struggle if the Outlander told him what Valkorion has said. Because it isn't coming straight from Valkorion but rather through a filter and that filter may well hate Valkorion.

 

Again, the Outlander has no way at all to prove what they would hypothetically tell Koth about Valkorion is actually true. It relies entirely on Koth taking the Outlander's word over the entirety of his lived experience. It's not an easy thing to do.

 

Koth acknowledges that the OUtlander has Valkorion inside his head and asks him to communicate Valk's words to him like in chapter 8. As long as the Outlander saids nice things, Koth will listen.

[leviathanmirror]

Koth acknowledges that the OUtlander has Valkorion inside his head and asks him to communicate Valk's words to him like in chapter 8. As long as the Outlander saids nice things, Koth will listen.

 

Sure. His experience biases him that way and until the Outlander has proof that Valkorion isn't what Koth thinks he is, then Koth has no reason to believe the Outlander when they say otherwise. Right now, the only thing the Outlander has is their word. Their word conflicts with everything Koth has lived up to this point. It's going to take more than their word for him to believe them. It isn't easy to discard everything you've believed your entire life and certainly not without any proof that you should do so.

[Phyreblade]

My Agent hates him. I mean, he outright hates him. I can even pinpoint the moment it happened, mind you. It was right around the time my Agent's standing on that shuttle heading up to the control tower to release the docking clamps that would allow the Gravestone to get away. He just looked down at the back of Koth's head and thought, "I so hate you now."

 

See, my Agent let the sun reactor thing blow up in the opening scenes of the escape from Zakuul and Koth gave him the hardest time about it. He yelled and railed and stomped all over the place, how terrible it was that my Agent didn't bend over backwards to save the reactor and keep a whole bunch of Zakuul locals alive. When all my Agent was thinking at the time was how best to get out of there the absolute quickest he could manage and back to his own space and family and far away from anything regarding Zakuul. And hey, Koth, it's not like he actually broke the stupid reactor himself, either!

 

So he's spent endless days and weeks by the time they're flying up to the control tower listening to Koth yell at him over the reactor. And when my guy points out, that Valkorian deliberately, willfully DESTROYED BILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE on Ziost, forcing my own Agent to stand there and friggin' WATCH them die -- Koth shrugs and says, "Well, Valkorian was good to us."

 

My Agent realized how utterly much a hypocrite Koth Vortena really is right then. His stomping hissy-fits every moment afterwards made for real desires to slap Koth straight upside the head. As far as my Agent is concerned, if it wasn't for managing to finally, finally tell Kaliyo to shut up and do what she's told and "No, you can't blow up whatever stray, boring people you want to, Kaliyo" -- then my Agent would gladly cut Koth loose and shoot him a bird as he's flying off to the nether regions of space. With Relo in tow, yea.

 

My Agent's siblings just find Koth boring, though.

[Warrgames]

So it seems.

 

The Alliance has to convince Koth, and the people of Zakuul, of Valkorion’s atrocities. That hasn’t happened yet. “But Koth, we told you that Valkorion killed billions of people.” How is that statement alone supposed to convince Koth, let alone the rest of the Zakuul population, that Valkorion is a dangerous monster.

 

Holos of the destruction can be shown, and Koth could be taken on a trip to Ziost. Still, it’s relative strangers’ hearsay without solid proof of the cause of the destruction. Sure, something happened on Ziost, but not proof of who did it.

 

At this point in KotFE everything is about going against Arcann. The immediacy of overthrowing Arcann’s rule is foremost. When the story gets to the point where Arcann is defeated (and I think he will be at some point), then things will develop down a different path. Right now, Koth is trying to help his people, and the Alliance. And trying to prevent the Alliance from killing his people.

 

So far, Koth has done nothing against the Alliance or the Commander. Nor has the Alliance concretely provided anything that supports their claims about Valkorion. Even the existence of the Alliance isn't proof. What happened to the Empire and Republic occurred during Arcann's rule.

 

There isn't any proof Koth will listen to. His all Hail Valkorion.

 

Lana; someone that you trust and have feelings for tells Koth that the person he idealize is a monster and you refuse to listen. Koth will only hear what he wants too.

[Lesaberisa]

Koth is a character that desperately needed the kind of deeper/more meaningful conversations with companions that we got with our companions in the class stories, especially when you would have a series of talks that explored a particular companion's past or motivations, whatever. Maybe Bioware wanted him to be a blind Valkorion/Vitiate loyalist regardless, but at least it would have provided the character with time and room to explain himself, provide nuance to his views and maybe change his mind.

 

Instead, like with pretty much every companion in KotFE, you get a couple of short conversations where you have no opportunity to dig deeper about anything - his "conversations" about Valkorion/Vitiate are very shallow and any objections your character has are immediately brushed off. It's not surprising people don't like it when you can't really question his support for Valkorion, try to change his mind, etc. (although there's other issues at play too).

 

Even as someone who likes Koth, I have been really disappointed with the execution of his character arc... he feels like a missed/blown opportunity by the writers, and I feel like it's mostly due to Bioware apparently not caring all that much about companion interactions outside of their mandated cutscene appearances.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Lesaberisa

[Codedrago]

Koth is a character that desperately needed the kind of deeper/more meaningful conversations with companions that we got with our companions in the class stories, especially when you would have a series of talks that explored a particular companion's past or motivations, whatever. Maybe Bioware wanted him to be a blind Valkorion/Vitiate loyalist regardless, but at least it would have provided the character with time and room to explain himself, provide nuance to his views and maybe change his mind.

 

Instead, like with pretty much every companion in KotFE, you get a couple of short conversations where you have no opportunity to dig deeper about anything - his "conversations" about Valkorion/Vitiate are very shallow and any objections your character has are immediately brushed off. It's not surprising people don't like it when you can't really question his support for Valkorion, try to change his mind, etc. (although there's other issues at play too).

 

Even as someone who likes Koth, I have been really disappointed with the execution of his character arc... he feels like a missed/blown opportunity by the writers, and I feel like it's mostly due to Bioware apparently not caring all that much about companion interactions outside of their mandated cutscene appearances.

 

I think I'd understand it more if we knew more about his experiences with Valkorion. Because all I think now is he's just hooked on propaganda. Maybe put in his backstory that he actually met Valkorion in persona and the Emperor did something inspiring or something.

[JennyFlynn]

The Outlander has Valkorion in their head, which Koth knows and believes. But he refuses to believe that you would know what Valkorion wants...Well, when it goes against Koth's ideas. Koth sometimes asks the Outlander what Valkorion thinks of all this, but will instantly put his hands over his ears if it's anything bad.

 

Lol somewhere in I think Chapter 8 when flying up to the Spire Control or w/e to meet up with HK, right before your final confrontation with Arcann.. you're alone in the shuttle with Koth and he brings up the Emperor. You can [Lie] to him and make up this whole random story about how you're busy chatting to Valkorion in your head and Koth just goes like "ok cool!". Some of them, even Senya who is a Force user, even seem to think you're like this telephone pole they can use to talk to Valkorion directly. He may 'know' and 'believe' Valkorion's in your head but he doesn't understand it.

 

This makes me wonder though.. if you go all kaboom on the entire Spire and Koth huffs and you then tell him it was Valkorion who ordered you to bomb the place.. what would he say then? Does he choose his beloved Emperor, his fellow Zakuulan's or are you then suddenly a liar, even though he believed you previously when stating the Emperor was talking to you?

[Codedrago]

Lol somewhere in I think Chapter 8 when flying up to the Spire Control or w/e to meet up with HK, right before your final confrontation with Arcann.. you're alone in the shuttle with Koth and he brings up the Emperor. You can [Lie] to him and make up this whole random story about how you're busy chatting to Valkorion in your head and Koth just goes like "ok cool!". Some of them, even Senya who is a Force user, even seem to think you're like this telephone pole they can use to talk to Valkorion directly. He may 'know' and 'believe' Valkorion's in your head but he doesn't understand it.

 

This makes me wonder though.. if you go all kaboom on the entire Spire and Koth huffs and you then tell him it was Valkorion who ordered you to bomb the place.. what would he say then? Does he choose his beloved Emperor, his fellow Zakuulan's or are you then suddenly a liar, even though he believed you previously when stating the Emperor was talking to you?

 

He'll cover his ears and say you're a liar. As I said, it's only when we say good things.