Damage Meters

[Voel_Arc]

I play the game for fun. Am I having fun? Why yes, yes I am. I am not going to argue about why I am having fun versus people that aren't having fun.

 

While I don't have an issue with damage meters, I do have a problem with people telling me how to play the game. What equipment I should have, or what rotation or powers I should be using. That's not fun for me.

[Badlander]

Do you ppl even read the Dev chats. This is a dead horse.. They said damage meters are coming..so get used to it. So are stats that everyone can see. Like deaths/kill damage/healing and win/loss. Edited February 16, 2012 by Badlander

[Russkiier]

In my MMO experience, (WoW up to Cata), meters are not all bad or even that bad at all

all the dps class should be doing approximately the same dps on a raid if they are specced/geared/same-skill (approzimately meaning within 5%)

 

if one person's dps is ******, then they are probably not specced/geared right and are a detriment to the group. I think that the responsible mature way to deal with this is continue with the instance/heroic area w/e unless the weak link makes it impossible, and also to explain to the weak link that his build is flawed and he should look at respecing a little to make his build more viable for group content.

 

if you want to spec however you like, more power to you, but why should your 15/7/19 build hold the group back, if it works for you solo, it doesnt neccesarily work for the group

 

in my experience i never had an issue getting kicked out for ****** dps, (or in my case, tanking), and a more experienced player gave me some tips on how to optimize my build

 

i dunno why people are hating on this idea so much

[Tuckered]

its ridiculous how many people are against this. wake up!

[sevev]

Damage meters (any scoring device for that matter) will always be used for ill will towards the players by a certain group of players.

 

that is a very serious responsibility that bioware is debating internally.

 

IT CAN HURT the player community.

 

Please be sure you understand what you are asking for.

 

Individual player combat logs are being added. Reading from those logs via a parser may not be added. You'll have to do the math by hand.

Technically, you can do the math by hand right now though.

[gurugeorge]

There should be test dummies with damage/healing/cc stats for personal use. That is all.

[Juanxlink]

There should be test dummies with damage/healing/cc stats for personal use. That is all.

 

We all thought the "training droid" would have some use...

Sadly, they went bioware style.

[Sunhed]

Something is needed.

At least a Combat Log that can be post processed so you can examine your own performance.

At the moment we have no data. We do not know comparitively how any AC/Spec performs dps, healing or tanking. We have no benchmarks to be able to self improve. A combat Log will come. It is necessary to hold people in the endgame. The Story is great, but it will not keep people subbing for months to years. I do not believe Bioware can produce content of a quality to keep people that engaged fast enough to keep them subbed.

MMO Endgame needs a different environment to Levelling and Story and that requires performance reviews. If the tools are not fairly soon forthcoming then the endgame will be stillborn.

[Cyntric]

This game needs a metric to determine performance.

 

Yes it will be used to show how bad people really are but the benefits far out weigh coddling of bad player's pride.

 

I don't want to take the dev's word that something is working and I don't want to have to guess about which specs / rotations do more damage than the others. I like knowing that I am performing at my personal best.

 

Min/maxing is a mini game for a lot of people and those who stand so stiff against against damage meters are impeding on my enjoyment of the game.

[Noirmorris]

This game needs a metric to determine performance.

 

Yes it will be used to show how bad people really are but the benefits far out weigh coddling of bad player's pride.

 

I don't want to take the dev's word that something is working and I don't want to have to guess about which specs / rotations do more damage than the others. I like knowing that I am performing at my personal best.

 

Min/maxing is a mini game for a lot of people and those who stand so stiff against against damage meters are impeding on my enjoyment of the game.

 

The only ppl complaining about damage meters are the one who say "Well, I don't mind if my spec is doing 15% of the dmg that the correct spec can do. I'm casual and you're a racist full of hate." .

What I think is : Ok, you're casual? Nps. Want to play with fantasy specs and heal as tank? Nps. But you have to understand that someone play on a different way, so don't act like a kid when a group doesn't want you.

[Lukeal]

The issue I see that no one is addressing is the base assumption that sheer DPS is ever going to be the tipping factor. That you can tell if the tank is "doing his job" because he is the one getting attacked, and the healer (cause you know peoples getting healed)... so if the boss wipes OBVIOUSLY somewhere the DPS failed.

This game is way, way more skill based around timing of when to use abilities that are highly detrimental to "highest DPS". If you try to "power" through some encounters you will get trashed and using a DPS meter to figure out "where the raid wiped" is, in my opinion, completely wrong-headed, lazy, and noobish for this game.

You'd simply ignore highly skilled players for ones who played long enough or were so stupidly over-geared that you don't need skill.

Basically you'd say "Any idiot that is geared enough to put out xxx dps can power through this content even though it would be easier with half that DPS and someone who knew how and when to use their abilities."

And that is the concept of "Leet" that is promoted by dmg meters.

A DPS can completely NOT know how to play in a group and maxes their DPS to the DETRIMENT of the group, but can say "look I capped DPS! I am god and you all suck"

Or the opposite can happen when the raid leader kicks the only dps that was interrupting, ccing or using mitigation abilities at all effectively because this crushed their "max DPS" rotation. Wonders why the raid did worse, kicks the lowest DPS and then gets past that magic tipping point where you have enough dps that skill doesn't matter and then say "I am a raid god... look at how I figured that out!!!"....

 

I have already seen this on LFG stuff in chat...

Hey, looking for someone for HM BT.... must be geared so ridiculously highly that you could solo HM BT (a bit of hyperbole, there). But to DPS this "effectively" they want you to already be in full end game gear.... not, you know, doing the HM BT to get the HM BT gear...

and with Dmg meters that thought process gets "validated" because, yeah, having 2-3x the DPS needed for a certain level of content means you can ignore a lot of the "knowing what to do and how to beat this boss fight". So that 2-3x the intended DPS becomes the "required" dps because that is "easier".

And you definitely saw this in the game that shall remain nameless.

that is the problem with dmg meters

And if some publishes or advocates a gearscore app, I will start the lynch mob myself...

[Lukeal]

Interestingly, the other thing I see is that there are actually 2 different arguments going on... the previous post was an argument against a group visible damage meter application. Something everyone can see and publish. I think that promotes laziness and the perception that DPS that maxes out DPS is "good" DPS for group play....

 

The other issue is the people who want to eke out the last bit of individual effectiveness from their character. Which I don't have a problem with at all. Have at it. theory craft the heck out of your character if that is how you enjoy playing. And you can tell me all you want how you are putting out the absolute most DPS for your DPS class....

Please enjoy that bragging right and sense of accomplishment. (I know that sounds sarcastic, but I am really sincere, I love to crunch numbers too)

 

I just don't feel that maximizing your individual ability (of any kind) correlates into how well you will support group play. This game just isn't as simple as that. Working together and using all your abilities well has way more potential impact than being so overpowered in one field as to make it unnecessary (and yes that included tanking or healing).

They have non-dps, non-healing, non-tanking abilities that can have huge impacts on the ebb and flow of a combat that are not only not captured in a meter but are often detrimentally 'exposed' on a meter.

[patchew]

dont do it. its a small step from damage meters to addons and that'll be the death of enjoyment in swotr.

when nerds nitpick about that extra .000045% increased damage from chosing one skill over another and youre a total noob if you dont .... thats when MMOs die.

addons killed wow, and they will kill swotr if they get implemented.

no to damage meters, no to addons for healing, no to auto-taunting, yes to banning hackers

dont do it, dont implement this stuff.

swotr will die horribly if you do

learn the lesson of wow, DO NOT IMPLEMENT THESE THINGS

[Amkolino]

My personal damage meter:

 

1) I hit stuff

2)

A) it dies

B) I die

 

If 2-A, damage good. If 2-B damage bad.

 

Done.

 

Hahahha very nice answer

[terminova]

The only ppl complaining about damage meters are the one who say "Well, I don't mind if my spec is doing 15% of the dmg that the correct spec can do. I'm casual and you're a racist full of hate." .

What I think is : Ok, you're casual? Nps. Want to play with fantasy specs and heal as tank? Nps. But you have to understand that someone play on a different way, so don't act like a kid when a group doesn't want you.

 

Generalizations are....bad. Not everyone who is against damage meters is a terrible player. Even in WoW you didn't need to use a damage meter to get good DPS.

[terminova]

They will be in game, because to not have them would show how lacking this game really is. How watered down of a MMO this is.

 

A lack of a damage meter doesn't do what you just claimed as that's simply an unsupported, biased claim.

 

They only provide data to players so that they can improve their own performance as well as the performance of guilds running content. Surely you have no problems with people trying to improve their performance, do you? Forget for a second that the game is so easy they aren't really needed right now. You wouldn't be one of those people that are afraid that their 'dirty laundry' will be aired for all to see, are you?

 

There's no need for a group damage meter in this, or any other game. If a damage meter was purely for personal improvement, then no one else needs to see it, ever.

[Morthis]

There's no need for a group damage meter in this, or any other game. If a damage meter was purely for personal improvement, then no one else needs to see it, ever.

 

Well, in a raid setting seeing the other people matters. If you gain gear and your dps goes up by 20%, without seeing other raiders you have no frame of reference. If you can see everybody else went up by 40%, well then you can tell something is wrong somewhere.

[ferroz]

There's no need for a group damage meter in this, or any other game.

I think it's funny watching people try to play the "need" card.

 

There's no need for a game client to log into other games either. It's something you want; just like some people want a damage meter.

[Ashnazg]

I know, I know, I’m beating a dead horse, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

This game would benefit from a tool that can measure the effectiveness of the DPS classes.

 

The game would have benefited from that at launch. At this rate, before the combat log (much less a dps meter) is in, Bioware will already be shutting down the servers.

[Descends]

I would at the very least like to see timed training dummies so I can compare specs and rotations adequitly to maximize my class.

 

Sometimes damage meters can be skewed by AOE vs single target dps, things like that.

 

But im all for full implementation of damage meters myself.

[Progue]

To the OP,

 

I don't think the purpose for a damage meter should be to keep track of other players and their performance. The purpose for a damage meter should be for individual players to keep track of themselves. If you want to max out your hps or dps, more power to you. But keeping tabs on players with this kind of tool only breeds elitism. This is why:

 

You say there is nothing wrong with expecting a minimum level of competence and skill from any given player in your group. That's all well and good. But what if that "minimum level" is, in practice, the maximum performance any given player can achieve?

 

I'm not saying this maximum scenario has ever been or will ever be the case, but you can see how easily the community's expectations of individual dps players can become unreasonable.

 

Granted, a tool like this is quite useful to keep track of guild members. I will even admit that it is a necessary part of being a high-end, hardcore raider. But outside of that, the tool will be abused, and players who simply want to play the game without number-crunching will suffer for it.

[Monkeh]

To the OP,

 

I don't think the purpose for a damage meter should be to keep track of other players and their performance. The purpose for a damage meter should be for individual players to keep track of themselves. If you want to max out your hps or dps, more power to you. But keeping tabs on players with this kind of tool only breeds elitism. This is why:

 

You say there is nothing wrong with expecting a minimum level of competence and skill from any given player in your group. That's all well and good. But what if that "minimum level" is, in practice, the maximum performance any given player can achieve?

 

I'm not saying this maximum scenario has ever been or will ever be the case, but you can see how easily the community's expectations of individual dps players can become unreasonable.

 

Granted, a tool like this is quite useful to keep track of guild members. I will even admit that it is a necessary part of being a high-end, hardcore raider. But outside of that, the tool will be abused, and players who simply want to play the game without number-crunching will suffer for it.

 

This sums it up,

People who want a dmg meter will also want gearscore too it breeds epeen and eletism

[avengingjedi]

It's been stated before. The real reason some people are so against damage meters, or combat logs, or any kind of objective data is simple. They would be presented with proof they cannot play their class.

 

I don't know why casuals are so against this. You will remain casual, and play with your casual friends, ignoring the damage meters which would show you your dps is also casual. For the people who care about this sort of thing, it can only help. For everyone else, simply ignore the meters.

[terminova]

Well, in a raid setting seeing the other people matters. If you gain gear and your dps goes up by 20%, without seeing other raiders you have no frame of reference. If you can see everybody else went up by 40%, well then you can tell something is wrong somewhere.

 

No, it doesn't. What helps are class guides, rotation guides etc. Damage meters don't tell you HOW to improve your DPS, they only tell you what it currently is. They also don't take into account your class or why you might have lower DPS than someone else. Also, people don't pay attention to class or what is actually happening and will give you grief over something that isn't even detrimental to anything because of them. I know, you don't believe that ever happens or ever would happen and that group wide damage meters are only good good good with zero drawbacks.

 

 

I think it's funny watching people try to play the "need" card.

 

There's no need for a game client to log into other games either. It's something you want; just like some people want a damage meter.

 

There's a difference between group wide and personal. FYI, I have no problem with the addition of a personal damage meter. What I was saying was there is no point to a group wide one.

[terminova]

It's been stated before. The real reason some people are so against damage meters, or combat logs, or any kind of objective data is simple. They would be presented with proof they cannot play their class.

 

False.