BW asks - small and frequent, or large and not so often for PVP changes

[Lhancelot]

Class Balance Changes

 

 

• We are debating if we should do small changes every month like we did last year or do big sweeping changes every few months. Would like to get community feedback which one you prefer.
  

 

 

 

This is just one small snippet taken from the "SWTOR Jan 14 Producer’s Livestream Notes" on Dulfy.

 

Seriously. Do they really have to ask this?

 

Yes devs, we enjoy having vast imbalances in PVP with certain classes enjoying gross overperformances while others drown in a pool of uselessness for months! <---- sarcasm

 

Obviously, I am pretty sure EVERYONE would expect fixes to class imbalances earlier versus later.

 

If you have to ask...

 

YES I WOULD LIKE SMALLER CHANGES TO HAPPEN MORE FREQUENTLY.

[Scinald]

Where is the damned like button?

[MrGoldsilver]

I agree, small and frequent would be for the best.

 

What I would like to see is some sort of balance change every week, but to only one advanced class. So week one is Powertechs, week 2 is mercs....

 

So every class gets a balance change every 8 weeks.

 

Also this way, if it's the Powertech week, for instance, if they don't do anything to a spec, like Pyrotech, we know that the devs think it is perfectly balanced.

Edited January 15, 2016 by MrGoldsilver

[Lhancelot]

Where is the damned like button?

 

Yeah, I really want to know how we are supposed to let them know what we would like... I mean... really. They don't read these forums and if they really want our feedback on something like this, where would we find such a question?

 

Questions for BW: Firstly where do we find your inquiring questions, secondly where do we answer them?

[Lhancelot]

I agree, small and frequent would be for the best.

 

What I would like to see is some sort of balance change every week, but to only one advanced class. So week one is Powertechs, week 2 is mercs....

 

So every class gets a balance change every 8 weeks.

 

Also this way, if it's the Powertech week, for instance, if they don't do anything to a spec, like Pyrotech, we know that the devs think it is perfectly balanced.

 

That would be nice.

[Master-Nala]

I agree with small incremental changes, but remember everyone. You have to be grown-up about it. I remember last year every time they did a change it was a chorus of:

 

1) Where's my buffs? My class is much more deserving than [X].

 

2) You didn't nerf [X] enough?

 

3) You nerfed [X] too much!

 

4) Nerf Operatives (whether in jest or serious)

 

5) Nerf Sorcs MOAR! (Always seriously, even if they had just been nerfed)

 

I can see why the devs don't want to go through with that every month.

[Ruhun]

I agree with small incremental changes, but remember everyone. You have to be grown-up about it. I remember last year every time they did a change it was a chorus of:

 

1) Where's my buffs? My class is much more deserving than [X].

 

2) You didn't nerf [X] enough?

 

3) You nerfed [X] too much!

 

4) Nerf Operatives (whether in jest or serious)

 

5) Nerf Sorcs MOAR! (Always seriously, even if they had just been nerfed)

 

I can see why the devs don't want to go through with that every month.

 

I want to see something like that, but I fear that sh*tposting will get in the way of actual productive discussion/changes.

[Lhancelot]

I agree with small incremental changes, but remember everyone. You have to be grown-up about it. I remember last year every time they did a change it was a chorus of:

 

1) Where's my buffs? My class is much more deserving than [X].

 

2) You didn't nerf [X] enough?

 

3) You nerfed [X] too much!

 

4) Nerf Operatives (whether in jest or serious)

 

5) Nerf Sorcs MOAR! (Always seriously, even if they had just been nerfed)

 

I can see why the devs don't want to go through with that every month.

 

These knee-jerk reactions also were in big part due to no kind of consistency on BW's part. Not to compare us to kids, but when children are ignored then suddenly granted changes they basically react poorly.

 

If BW wants to implement a system where players don't react so poorly, they should in fact have a system in place that is a little more structured.

 

If we understand that every class will get touched over time, we would not all cry for "my class" buffs etc.

 

The way it is now though, we see over-performing classes getting touched up, while neglected ones continue to get ignored.

 

Add onto the fact that literally 1-2 years could go by, and that same neglected class could remain neglected.

 

It's not hard to understand why the playerbase acts out and becomes disgruntled and pissed off when patches do come out for class balancing.

 

I am not trying to make excuses for some of the really awful behavior of some players, but by all means it doesn't take a psychologist to understand why we have frequent and long periods of time where the playerbase seems unhappy.

 

They can't sit and ignore people, then expect people to respond favorably when often times the changes they are considering don't make much sense to the players.

 

The worst part is not knowing when the class-buffing carousel will come back around, and changes will occur for other classes other than the FOTMs that seem to get all of the attention.

 

It could be in 6 months, or it could be in a couple years. Who knows?

[foxmob]

I have no faith that BW's "small changes" will occur or even make sense half the time. but i also doubt they'd ever turn the tables on FotY.

 

I have no faith that BW's "big changes" will make sense, but there's a far higher likelihood that they will be impactful. on the other hand, we're talking about the same group of ppl that went live with bubble-stun, in ion cell, gave sorcs PW and addressed sins' problems of being rooted by giving them an instant 30m mezz.

[metaldudie]

You know mobas to take an example of an mmo based game seems to be handled just fine with weekly foxes and nerfs or buffs we are talking about 40 characters being looked at and being changed if neccesary i understand that the mechanic of moba is not the same far fromt it. But if these small studios like hon can maintain a good system in class changes why cant BW they are supported by EA.

 

You have 4 classes each side that are suppose to be the same so that being said 4 x 3 is 12 specs to maintain healthy

And we are not asking you to make huge quality of life changes because some dont need it some do

But to say that they have it hard i dont agree its simple enough.

 

If you are gonna ask the comunity what they want to see and your asking us than read this stuff do something with dont just say that for the sake of saying it

 

I feel this company makes to many empty gestures, basicly lying to your costumers thats a bad thing imo.

 

I would like to see this company listen and respond i am getting really impatient with this lack luster behavior of this company and its sad because the game kicks ***.

 

Please bioware i mean this prove us wrong and comunicate

[BobaStyx]

BW, trolling it's players since circa patch 1.1

 

I can't believe that was even a question, somebody get these people a reality check please...

[metaldudie]

BW, trolling it's players since circa patch 1.1

 

I can't believe that was even a question, somebody get these people a reality check please...

 

That is exactly where my frustration is starting to pump the nerve to ask that with a straight face

 

And what we would like to see changed

 

It clearly indicates they have never even bothered looking. Everyday its a load of people coming up with ideas

 

I just cant believe the attitude these people have towards theyre costumers

[Jherad]

I like the idea of frequent changes - but frequent should not mean that changes must always be 'small'.

 

Sometimes disparities exist which can only be rectified with larger cross-board improvements (for example the addition of a completely new ability, or change to utilities). Sometimes tweaking the numbers slightly doesn't really help if a problem is with utility, or survivability under certain conditions, or output against certain classes etc. And then of course 'tweaks' can have ramifications for PvE as well.

 

So yeah. Frequent by all means. But not limited.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Jherad

[foxmob]

I like the idea of frequent changes - but frequent should not mean that changes must always be 'small'.

 

Sometimes disparities exist which can only be rectified with larger cross-board improvements (for example the addition of a completely new ability, or change to utilities). Sometimes tweaking the numbers slightly doesn't really help if a problem is with utility, or survivability under certain conditions, or output against certain classes etc. And then of course 'tweaks' can have ramifications for PvE as well.

 

So yeah. Frequent by all means. But not limited.

 

I'm guessing the "read between the lines" aspect of that was "do you want us to put a little effort into pvp every month or a lot of effort every 3 months." granted, "a little" and "a lot" are highly subjective terms, and I think the speaker's idea of it and mine are quite different.

[LordTurin]

I think small and frequent is what they have to do. BW has had a huge issue with going completely overboard either buffing or nerfing things depending on what they think is currently going on, especially as they don't have a great testing ground for these changes. Let's use the oft discussed topic of sorc healing as an example.

 

If you assume sorc healing is too strong right now (whether it is or not isn't the point), then BW can do one of two things. They could do a small change (lets say, increase the cost of roaming mend by 5 force points) or they could do an enormous one (increase roaming mends cd by 20 seconds, require 4 stacks of resurgence to do insta-puddle, and take away the insta case of dark heal). The first seems a reasonable change to make, and the second would probably break sorcs in both pvp and pve. Even if the end result after a couple months is the second option, it'll be the second option because incremental changes were made that slowly increased the quality of life of pvp in the game. By just throwing in giant changes, it'll actually decrease the QoL until finally, at some point, things are "balanced".

[Lalainnia]

Just do what they did leading up to 4.0 kotfe take 3 specs take em to pts give them tweaks concerning areas that ppl feel need addressing. They did it with all the dps specs then they did the 3 tanks specs then they did the healer spec while it wasn't he greatest balancing done it was some of the best communication ever done in the history of the entire game.

 

Hopefully crybaby annihilation/watchmen maras/sents don't fudge it up for the rest of the classes/specs again by going legit crazy on devs that actually take the time and write out entire dev posts on how they intended for the class to play while ironically enough the actual spec was like 2nd or 1st dps wise in pve but just difficult to play. It just didn't "feel fun" and it wasn't "easy":mad:, pretty much though if they ever do something like the small frequent patchs they had going out before kotfe people need to not go crazy on the devs, at the same time ppl shouldn't idly sit by and let them over tune certain specs and great example being sages/sorc over buffing from 3.3.

[AlrikFassbauer]

YES I WOULD LIKE SMALLER CHANGES TO HAPPEN MORE FREQUENTLY.

 

+1

 

Or, in other words : I agree to this.

 

I'm guessing the "read between the lines" aspect of that was "do you want us to put a little effort into pvp every month or a lot of effort every 3 months."

 

Problem is, that their "efford every 3 months" has led into an massive zig-zag line of trying to balance everything.

 

Smaller, tiny zig-zag lines would feel more natural, and go into an opimum rather smoothly,

not like this "buff into heaven - nerf into hell" way of "balancing" classes as is done right now.

Edited January 16, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[Smuglebunny]

yes, more frequent. BUT they need to not be ridiculous changes. BW...no ridiculous changes...

 

Stop buffing already vastly OP classes

Stop giving mercs a tiny thing and then taking things away, actually make them playable.

ROCKET OUT?!?!? REALLY! Mercs can run away for 3 seconds...before dying? derp move. Rocket out is unneeded and nearly useless. And in exchange for the uselessness mercs got HO nerfed. WHAT A GOOD IDEA derp derp derp

 

No more freaking roots stuns slows hindering ect.

 

No more teleports, in fact remove some.

 

but yea...more frequent. If you can do that and also keep the game functional.

[leonlotus]

I subscribed SWTOR for years. It was love at first sight.

But without that note, i was leaving this time for good, as did some friends, months ago. And as did many PvPers alredy.

If the DEVs do a good job, they can bring back a real PvP community, certainly.

[leonlotus]

I would be nice to see old things back:

 

- Juggs/Guards - having their Enraged Defense costing Rage, and loosing "single saber mastery".

- Sorcs/Sages - having to deal with Force Points, and loosing Phase.

- Mara/Sent - loosing HP after Guarded By the Force.

- Sins/Shad - loosing the immunity to force while cloackrun.

- PT/vg - Jet and Hook back to Tank building, and loosing DPS.

- Op/Scounds - having more DPS and less HPS overall.

- Mercs/Mandos - same above.

- Snipers/Guns - having astrological DPS.

 

Above all else, imo, there must separate SURGE/CRIT/POWER.

Also, these passives are so simple. Theres no actual "building" anymore.

Edited January 16, 2016 by leonlotus

[Taerrik]

I agree with smaller more frequent weekly fixes to pvp

 

Or one large fix that brings back the carolina parakeet spec to powertechs.... j/k

[Bryanseven]

Smaller more frequent changes would be much more useful than Large infrequent changes.

 

First, it allows a slow transition to specs from OP to balanced and from ***** to Balanced so people don't scream "**** BW KILLED MAH SPEC!" or "**** MUST REROLL NOWZ TO ( new buffed spec)"

 

Secondly, frequent changes to specs, especially if accompanied with a write up BY THE DEV doing the changes would go a long way to making the community feel like the dev's actually listen and understand the classes and the current state of them.

 

This last point is nearly as important as the changes themselves in my opinion..as too often the amount of negativity that is on these boards centers around the perception that the dev's either don't know what they're doing regarding class / pvp balance or don't care. A legitimate point to support this perception is the extraordinarily infrequent posts about these issues by anyone at Bioware, much less anyone who actually has anything to do with RESOLVING these issues. (I personally think the current class balance is not far off, but it still could use some tweaks)

 

I am sure the dev's HATE to be attacked for their decisions and I completely understand why they would much rather not engage with the community directly and instead send Musco or Tait to make an announcement about an upcoming announcement every 6 months or so...but even a monthly, sticky READ ONLY Dev blog from class dev's regarding the most recent class adjustments would be nice.

[Giliodor]

Small frequent changes.

[Lhancelot]

Just bumping this to keep ouranswer on this question shown.

[Shiftastic]

Small Frequent Changes that can be reverted if they are bad changes (reverted when class comes around again so people have time to test them out)