DarthDymond Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) If anything killing his father strengthened his resolve, that was the hole point of it. Before that he was struggling with the light side. Idk why people try to suggest the opposite. As for being injured? Granted, but he was still only on par with the Stormtrooper from earlier who kicked Finn's ***. The injured main villain being on par with a fodder is just...yeah... He absolutely did it because he thought it would strengthen his resolve and end any conflict in him - but I don't think we're meant to believe that's what actually happened once he did it. Didn't he keep smacking himself in the chest during the fight as if he was trying to keep himself going? It seemed like he was an absolute mess during the duel, between the bowcaster injury and the aftereffects what he'd just done. I actually consider Kylo Ren underwhelming overall, but that's because I'm just not sold on the performance / execution. The concept - including that he is a half-trained villain who still has a lot of growing and learning to do instead of starting off as a fully-realized threat - is actually one of the areas where I like how TFA diverged from the previous movies (which is something I wish it did a little more often). Having the villain, not just the hero, being someone who has a lot of raw potential (evidenced by stopping the blaster bolt), but still not completely developed, gives him some elements of 'The Rival' trope - which is a neat dynamic for the story, IMO. Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrdinn Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 He absolutely did it because he thought it would strengthen his resolve and end any conflict in him - but I don't think we're meant to believe that's what actually happened once he did it. Didn't he keep smacking himself in the chest during the fight as if he was trying to keep himself going? It seemed like he was an absolute mess during the duel between the bowcaster injury and the aftereffects what he'd just done. I actually consider Kylo Ren underwhelming overall, but that's because I'm just not sold on the performance / execution. The concept - including that he is a half-trained villain who still has a lot of growing and learning to do instead of starting off as a fully-realized threat - is actually one of the areas where I like how TFA diverged from the previous movies (which is something I wish it did a little more often). Having the villain, not just the hero, being someone who has a lot of raw potential (evidenced by stopping the blaster bolt), but still not completely developed, gives him some elements of 'The Rival' trope - which is a neat dynamic for the story, IMO. On a lot of levels, I agree. The self-aggrandizement, however, was probably something like Vader's... he was causing himself enough pain through his wound in order to focus. That was a lot of blood loss, and he probably needed the temporary boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) You don't find anything odd about any of that? Not even the fact that finn can adequately wield a lightsaber despite only becoming aware of force sensitivity 10 min earlier? I'd argue the whole legend lore about lightsabers being weightless, requiring a certain level of adeptness with the force to sense the weight of the blade, as well as melee training proficiency. but this canon seems to run on a different set of rules it seems. Ren won the fight against Finn. I understand where you're coming from in that you think he should have dropped him as quickly as Palpatine dropped Kit Fisto and co. in Episode III, but if a main character having plot armor bothered me that much in a Star Wars movie, I'd probably have given up on the series halfway through the first movie. Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeristash Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 I am not certain he is FS. I think he might just have been a sort of lucky (both bad and good). He was the pawn of the Force more than anything else: the piece that moves that allows other pieces to be moved. Like a prophet? Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeristash Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 Ren won the fight against Finn. I understand where you're coming from in that you think he should have dropped him as quickly as Palpatine dropped Kit Fisto and co. in Episode III, but if a main character having plot armor bothered me that much in a Star Wars movie, I'd probably have given up on the series halfway through the first movie. Tbh, plot armor hadn't crossed my mind. Point taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) he probably didnt get the strength in his resolve that he thought he would, i mean the whole movie even when he does it he still seems at war with himself, like he is still trying to comvince himself he is of the darkside Edited December 19, 2015 by ConVallian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) I do just want to emphasize that when I talk about why I liked (or just didn't mind) something that someone else is saying they disliked, I'm not trying to say "You're wrong for not liking [X]" (whether it's a scene, a character, a plot-line, or the whole movie). This is all entertainment, in the end it either works for you or it doesn't. I'm just discussing what did (and did not) work for me, and looking to articulate why some of the specific things that bothered someone else didn't really bother me (or why they were overshadowed by the good, as is the case for me with the movie as a whole). Any back-and-forths are because I'm enjoying the discussion, not taking offense at anyone having a different opinion. (I only feel the need to clarify this because... well, let's be honest about the Star Wars fandom for a minute, there are some people out there who can get a bit carried away .) Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 You guys can explain it all you want, but a sith losing to a janitor is so hilariously bad that I'd like to get some of that stuff that JJ was smoking during filming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) he probably didnt get the strength in his resolve that he thought he would, i mean the whole movie even when he does it he still seems at war with himself, like he is still trying to comvince himself he is of the darkside In another thread, I mentioned that one scene that I was a bit put off by at first but then really liked in retrospect (once Kylo Ren's character was elaborated on a bit more), was when he went berserk on the computer and wall, without killing the Officer who brought him the infuriating news. It was a neat moment that showed how he absolutely does give into his negative emotions, like rage, but isn't so consumed by the Dark Side that he'll capriciously kill someone out of pique. A bit of the "there is still good in him" concept getting the 'show, don't tell' treatment. He'll be ruthless, as evidenced by ordering the extermination of the village at the very beginning, but it seems like a deliberate "what would Vader do?" ruthlessness that he is consciously trying to cultivate - his knee-jerk, in-the-moment reactions show that evil isn't quite coming naturally for him yet. Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 In another thread, I mentioned that one scene that I was a bit put off by at first but then really liked in retrospect once Kylo Ren's character was elaborated on a bit more, was when he went berserk on the computer and wall, without killing the Officer who brought him the infuriating news. It was a nice moment that showed how he absolutely does give into his negative emotions - like rage, but isn't so consumed by the Dark Side that he'll capriciously kill someone out of pique. yeah to me Ren was of the most interesting character in the movie right up there with rey. but i have a feeling when 8 comes he will be past his internal struggle much like vader was by a new hope which will in turn give birth to one of the most powerful darksiders ever..we will wait and see after snoke trains him some more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) yeah to me Ren was of the most interesting character in the movie right up there with rey. but i have a feeling when 8 comes he will be past his internal struggle much like vader was by a new hope which will in turn give birth to one of the most powerful darksiders ever..we will wait and see after snoke trains him some more I really like the character concept - the Kylo Ren "on paper" as it were. But the execution just wasn't doing it for me. With the mask on, the visual design was just too Vader-lite (which I know was 100% deliberate, but the result was still that it felt a bit underwhelming); and with the mask off Adam Driver's performance just didn't click. Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 You guys can explain it all you want, but a sith losing to a janitor is so hilariously bad that I'd like to get some of that stuff that JJ was smoking during filming... He's not a Sith. They've been making that clear the whole time. He's a dark side user. Not a Sith. Finn was sanitation when at the station, he was still a trained trooper. He got sent out to Jakku as a soldier not a janitor. Even in the army, the cooks are trained to use the weapons. And when he went up against another nameless Trooper, that trooper was trained in melee combat. Finn did terrible against Kylo, who was injured. He also wasn't fully trained and not sure of himself at all. I don't think Han dying was out of place either. He wasn't going to kill his own son. He only had one option, to hopefully talk Ben out of it all. He may have even seen that Ben still loved his dad, but the power of the dark side won out, though I'm not sure he's fully dark side just yet. I think he will still end up having to fight the LS in himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I really like the character concept - the Kylo Ren "on paper" as it were. But the execution just wasn't doing it for me. With the mask on, the visual design was just too Vader-lite (which I know was 100% deliberate, but the result was still that it felt a bit underwhelming); and with the mask off Adam Driver's performance just didn't click. Really? i walked out of the movie impressed with driver's performance, all the actors really..I just loved the movie it made me want more. I guess the main reason i liked it was because i didn't try to watch it with the other movies in mind. Even now with all 7 movies in my mind i still really enjoyed it. I was surprised how much hate its got in so short of time.but i know opinions differ so. It will take awhile for it to become accepted because its still brand new i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Really? i walked out of the movie impressed with driver's performance, all the actors really..I just loved the movie it made me want more. I guess the main reason i liked it was because i didn't try to watch it with the other movies in mind. Even now with all 7 movies in my mind i still really enjoyed it. I was surprised how much hate its got in so short of time.but i know opinions differ so. It will take awhile for it to become accepted because its still brand new i think How much hate? Really??? It's got a 95% on Rotten Tomatoes, every single review I've read or watched has ranged from generally positive to outright heaping praise, and my Facebook feed has been filling up with people saying how much they enjoyed it. Sure, I've seen some people who dislike it here and on reddit, but for every person I've seen saying they didn't care for it (or hated it) I've seen several saying they absolutely loved it. If anything the positive response has probably peaked as some are caught up in the early hype - I don't think we're in a "wait for it to be accepted" phase at all, if anything we're in a "okay, obviously the response is good, but let's wait for the hype to die down a bit before we go calling it 'amazing'" phase. Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xomnow Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I just got back... I'm not sure I thought it was possible the movie could be MORE disappointing than I expected. As to the prowess of our bad guy-du jour.... I'm of the opinion that Luke from Ep IV would have mopped the floor with Ren. All of them - just bad... Which begs the question - is that why Luke bounced and peaced out for 30 years? Because ho-hum I'm a bad *** and who will I show off my bad-assery to now that my dad is a crispy critter? Obviously I'm being incredibly sarcastic, I get to an extent that Luke holed up after failing to train Ben better, but good lord, in this brave new Star Wars age, are the bad guys really this pathetic? And Snoke... what, was he maybe Palpatine's office supply-fetcher? You know, Palapatine runs out of post-its so he buuzes Voldem... I mean Snoke on the intercom and has him hustle in a fresh new pad. After years of being a complete low level lackey, he picked up on the fact that the dark side is... dark? I just don't see any sort of threat that would require Luke to have to get involved. "I'll let the noobs handle it, np, they've got this..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garravesh Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I have to agree the movie was terrible. the defense that Darth half arse was not a master or very poorly trained in the dark side is totally irrelevant.....he had far superior training to that little scav girl. She had no business, short of Yoda appearing as a ghost and teaching her, how to use one branch of the force CONTROL without any training...Sense yes...alter NO....Control NEVER........Sure there are examples of the force giving you intuition......this broad had no idea whatsoever and we are not privy to any force related incidents prior to the movie to lead us to the conclusion she has any knowledge of the force. that alone makes this crap totally unbelievable..... While Darth wannabe is injured and a little raw after gutting papa that should have relished his acceptance to the darkside much like when Anakin slaughtered some padawans...he should have had raw power and anger and fear running rampant much like what was shown in the movie by him beating his wound in defiance of pain and fear. yes he succumbs to a scav girl from some sandy wasteland..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 A scav girl who had to learn to fight on her own. She's not a slouch. She also trained herself in using a melee weapon. Combined with being powerful in the force and what I imagine us seeing later is her versus Snoke who will likely turn out to be a powerful lightsaber combatant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanyaCross Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Rey won because she was already a superb fighter and Ren was a whiny little punk who swung his sword like a baseball bat and had internal bleeding. [/thread]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfFoxz Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 You forget the Kylo was also wounded and his training was not finished. If anything Kylo is still a padwan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-darko Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) We're all entitled to 'our own' Star Wars but from that assume that Canon will nod to 'your' Star Wars is a bit much, and a bit childish actually. The OP's criticism as to the specific to the end fights just shows someone to busy taking notes to criticize rather than actually paying attention to what is happening on the big screen. And to, in a follow up analyze, cross reference the old EU to make sense of the actual Canon, shows an unwillingness to accept that the old is gone, no more, what's being told on the big screen, new comics, books and games that got the permission slip from Disney is the only thing that's Canon. And if there's a EU mention or likeness it doesn't make EU canon. There is no Canon by association!! But to deliver criticism like this; . She had no business, short of Yoda appearing as a ghost and teaching her, how to use one branch of the force CONTROL without any training...Sense yes...alter NO....Control NEVER........Sure there are examples of the force giving you intuition......this broad had no idea whatsoever and we are not privy to any force related incidents prior to the movie to lead us to the conclusion she has any knowledge of the force. that alone makes this crap totally unbelievable..... . Just shows the clueless perception of how much references and nods to the EU that the movie actually is full of; to the OP and anyone with similar notions go read the tale of Nomi Sunrider. The question now is how much a close minded and reflexive, spontaneous combustion of criticism that has been conditioned by years of hate and a failure of insight as to who 'own', the story, that is Star Wars, is going to ruin the average Fan-haters experience from here and on. In any case in the words of the great Mr. T; "I pity the fool"!! Edited December 19, 2015 by t-darko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) How much hate? Really??? It's got a 95% on Rotten Tomatoes, every single review I've read or watched has ranged from generally positive to outright heaping praise, and my Facebook feed has been filling up with people saying how much they enjoyed it. Sure, I've seen some people who dislike it here and on reddit, but for every person I've seen saying they didn't care for it (or hated it) I've seen several saying they absolutely loved it. If anything the positive response has probably peaked as some are caught up in the early hype - I don't think we're in a "wait for it to be accepted" phase at all, if anything we're in a "okay, obviously the response is good, but let's wait for the hype to die down a bit before we go calling it 'amazing'" phase. A movie being good is not a democracy. A lot of people like Justin Bieber too. There is a difference between market success and quality. * * * Also what's with the people saying it's good having in mind it ''sets the stage'' for future movies? Who cares about *********** setting a gosh darn stage. A movie is either good in and of itself or it isn't * * * Haven't watched the movie yet but in the trailer Kylo Ren says ''i will finish what he started'' while looking at Vader's mask. What the hell did he start or i am missing something that is explained inside the movie? Vader didn't start ****, Palpatine and the Sith Imperative is behind everything. Edited December 19, 2015 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 A movie being good is not a democracy. A lot of people like Justin Bieber too. I was specifically talking about the amount of praise versus the amount of hate the movie has been getting in general. There is no such thing as a movie (or music) being objectively good or bad, it's entertainment - it's subjective by nature. I found it to be a good movie - so did a whole lot of other people from the look of things. Your opinion is just as valid as any of ours, and our opinion is just as valid as yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulftun Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Kylo Ren toys with Finn and it backfires. After one hit he takes Finn out. Rey comes and as well trained in melee fight. (fought two mercenaries in the beginning and won easily). Rey wins especially when Ren tried to recruit her instead of killing her. + Kylo Ren was wounded during both fights. Nothing out of place in those fights. Kylo was strongish force user but decided to melee fight instead of using the force. Main thing was that those fight were intense and supported the story. I'm sure some people want to see prequel and SWTOR type of fights where both sith and jedies are gods jumping 30ft and doing backflips during fight. For me this was way better. Edited December 19, 2015 by Wulftun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoverNoFighter Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 You guys can explain it all you want, but a sith losing to a janitor is so hilariously bad that I'd like to get some of that stuff that JJ was smoking during filming... He's not a Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-darko Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 You guys can explain it all you want, but a sith losing to a janitor is so hilariously bad that I'd like to get some of that stuff that JJ was smoking during filming... You will forever be disappointed . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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