Can we beat Arcann and Vaylin?

[Garrek]

(I posted this on the General Discussion where it got buried by the acid over there. Apologies for the repost and if this has been discussed already)

Just to be clear that this is an opinion piece not a gameplay mechanic. It might be lengthy so be warned. There are also spoilers so if you haven't finished the nine chapters of kotfe please stop now or read at your own risk.

 

Now that that's out of the way.

 

Like many others I am in the agreement that Vaylin is the more powerful and formidable of the two siblings. But, that isn't to say that Arcann is not a powerhouse in his own right either.

 

I play a Jedi Knight as my main toon. From what I remember of my class story and what I have watched I do not remember anyone being able to toss the JK around and tear through the Force Barrier the way Arcann did. Stuff tossed at but not rag dolled except for Valkorian playing as Vitiate in Chapter 2 of the class story.

 

Let's face it Arcann pretty much dominated that whole fight cutscene wise regardless of what class you play as. And if we can't get past him how do we beat his sister who is even stronger?

 

Sure we could say that her lightsaber technique is lacking from her fight from Senya but can we truly say that? She managed to fight her mother saber to saber for pretty much the whole length of their fight. I believer her arrogance allowed Senya to gain the upper hand along with the fact that Senya did not want to kill her daughter.

 

Point is the Outlander can't rely on Valkorian and his power for obvious reasons. At the same time though he/she can't beat them on his/her own either. Not in single combat anyway. So how can the Outlander prevail?

 

Personally I think Thexan might have a role to play. Its Star Wars after all people appear as spirits all the time. Or there is something else that the developers have in mind. That's just my opinion.

 

Please feel free to share yours if you want. I just wanted to point out how it seems that the Outlander has his/her work cut out for them and the Alliance.

[Saelinne]

....we might (might mind) be suffering from whatever is killing us as we were frozen and....our skills might simply have grown rusty:D Though that only really works for JK and maybe SW.....the force monsters (JC and SI) were just disappointment:)

 

Especially when my SI used the emperor's power to create very big and long lightning and could barely stand after that...the same as if a defferent class use it....and if you have played the SI story you will see why that....will not affect the SI as it will the other classes...

 

....it will be interesting if how good our influence with the parts of the alliance (the force enclave/smuggler/science and military) are the main factor in how good we do in future battles....especially if force users and non force users depend on different branches ( force encleve for force users and science respec for the non force users)...

 

....I actually have a funny idea/image that our non force users might be in a better position to win vs Arcann and Vaylin:D With how advanced the Zakuul's technology apparently is and how our non force users are masters when it come to using it...

...well once our scientist research it and make it accessable.....

Edited December 5, 2015 by Saelinne

[efffel]

My inquisitor was holding his own, even though HK-55 did not enter the fight (gets exhausting and he pulled himself to reactivate HK, the battle was easy after). In the story, the outlander is the most powerful being in the galaxy, the only one worthy of the emperor's attention.

If Senya can beat Vaylin, the outlander can too, but Vaylin says to the outlander before the fight that he has a crush on her which is on the spot in this case. We'll see later what they have in mind, before that, they have to reintroduce the romanceable partners,...

 

So far, I have 3 sories ongoing

 

 

My smuggler is at a total loss, didn't kneel, but used the power to save Lana and to end the final fight, brought Risha back and everything looks like old time, amassing credits and roaming the galaxy

 

My consular jedi didn't kneel, refused the power all the way (he's 100% dedicated to the light side) and enters a romance with Lana

 

My inquisitor kneeled, but didn't use the power once, also entering the Lana romance. Since he force-choked Tora, he didn't get the option to romance Koth LOL, but he stays on the team

 

Edited December 5, 2015 by efffel

[Saelinne]

My inquisitor was holding his own, even though HK-55 did not enter the fight (gets exhausting and he pulled himself to reactivate HK, the battle was easy after). In the story, the outlander is the most powerful being in the galaxy, the only one worthy of the emperor's attention.

If Senya can beat Vaylin, the outlander can too, but Vaylin says to the outlander before the fight that he has a crush on her which is on the spot in this case. We'll see later what they have in mind, before that, they have to reintroduce the romanceable partners,...

 

Yes my SI really wish to romance the girl who she can't be sure whether will kiss her or try to kill her:)

 

...but imo Senya only beat Veylin because Veylin underestimated her and battled only using her lightsaber.....tho how Senya managed to throw our force users so far and easy....

...especially the JC or SI..../sigh

Edited December 5, 2015 by Saelinne

[CaptainCaim]

I'm inclined to think that our characters totally can, it's just that Arcann has been able to use the five years we spent frozen to "level up" enough that he has enough of an edge to win that one fight against us.

 

 

If you refuse to kneel, then when Arcann attacks Valkorion he ultimately gets one-shotted by a blast of Force Lightning that, while flashy, seems FAR less powerful than what you can hit him with in Chapter 8 if you accept Valkorion's power then given that it doesn't blow a hole through any of the walls, either killing a dozen or so knights or venting the throne room into space, and lasts a second at most rather than being a prolonged barrage that Arcann manages to tank for awhile.

 

Also, in one scene, Arcann flat out claims that Valkorion was holding back all of his children, just Vaylin most of all. Given how much more powerful our characters managed to become over what was probably less than five years of in-universe time before getting frozen, I don't think it's implausible that Arcann could have trained hard enough to edge our characters out in that time even if it wasn't all spent fighting the Dread Masters, doing Things on Makeb, or thwarting Revan.

 

As far as Vaylin goes, I'm actually inclined to think she is currently less of a physical threat than her brother even if she has the potential to be much, much worse. She had a mental block put on her when she was a child, Arcann claims that she is just beginning to spread her wings in the scene I mentioned before, and she doesn't strike me as the sort to have enough discipline and self-control to apply herself to a training regime that would maximize the horrifying amount of raw power she has. At least, not without some plausible threat to her dangling overhead to act as motivation.

 

Hence how Senya could beat Vaylin one-on-one and why Lana's primary objection to the player character suggesting they try to take her on in Chapter 3 is "You can barely stand right now" rather than "We can't beat her ever!". Depending on how you read Vaylin's more sinister lines, that may also be one of the reasons Arcann seems to be calling the shots for the moment.

 

As far as Senya throwing our characters back goes...yeah, I'm just going to handwave that by saying that she surprised them and wasn't really acting with hostile intent that might have been sensed. It's not the first time our characters have had something dubious like that happen to them in cutscenes, though.

 

 

EDIT: Also, I'd be careful about putting too much stock into the cutscenes as being representative of our characters' power compared to Arcann's. They're clearly being kept short and generalized to avoid causing too much conflict with whatever class you're actually playing, but even as-is I feel they are doing a dubious job of that. (Hello Sorcerer/Sage that rushes forward to meet Arcann lightsaber to lightsaber or Shadow/Assassin that forgets to ignite the other half of their saberstaff!)

 

I'm interpreting the actual gameplay as closer to being the Big Epic Duel with Arcann that was intended, so I don't think it's quite as one-sided as you may think it is. Especially since even in the cutscenes, Force Users hit him in the face and force him on the defensive during the opening of the cutscene!Lightsaber duel and Non-Force users shoot him in the armored!face and shoulder.

Edited December 5, 2015 by CaptainCaim

[SerraShar]

By getting ride of that Lame Title 'Outlander' and kick that rich snob Arcann in the quad !!!

 

Seriously....that fight was Lame.....

[Shayddow]

I'm going to wager and hypothesize that, just as Luke did in ROTJ <see Emporer Palpatines mocking line about his "faith in his friends>, we are going to have to rely a bit on our "friends" <alliance> to help us, regardless of whether we play a Force-using class or not.

What form this "help" will take is still unknown, but IC-wise at least, some of it will most likely take into account the materials brought to the table by the alliance we've formed. We have gotten a bit of foreshadowing with the remarks made by Yuun and Talos when we recruit them in the Alliance story - hints that we are going to have to "research" ways to overcome Arcann et al.

I believe there will be a combination of the following factors:

 

1. Droid intervention - whether this is from T7, Scorpio, or whomever - there is a certain feeling that in the final battle, the actions of a Droid may make the difference. Especially revolving around the Gravestone and the Eternal Fleet.

 

2. Other Scientific and arcane research. Just as Isotope-5 was important to Makeb. This will also take into account a way of getting out from the Emperor's control <if desired>, or submitting it to our own will. <LS/DS>.

 

3. Fighting. Same as the rest of the story.

[Archanubis]

Possibly - and more than likely. One wonders if the Emperor will survive this, considering that

there's one scene after you fight Arcann where he tells his sister that Valkorian's speaker is getting weaker. Granted, the scene I saw this was with a light-sided character, so I'm not sure it it's the same for a dark-sided or neutral one, but it does raise an interesting question.

[Adaliaya]

Would Bioware make the protagonist lose? I doubt so.

 

Vaylin lost to Senya, Outlander kind of lost to Arcann, which actually leads me to believe Vaylin is weaker out of those two. Arcann just doesn't show off as much as Vaylin does.

 

Outlander will still most likely defeat them all in the end, its Star Wars after all. Its still beginning of story, if Arcann would have appealed weak on the duel that would have made the threat seem less serious.

[Saelinne]

 

EDIT: Also, I'd be careful about putting too much stock into the cutscenes as being representative of our characters' power compared to Arcann's. They're clearly being kept short and generalized to avoid causing too much conflict with whatever class you're actually playing, but even as-is I feel they are doing a dubious job of that. (Hello Sorcerer/Sage that rushes forward to meet Arcann lightsaber to lightsaber or Shadow/Assassin that forgets to ignite the other half of their saberstaff!)

 

 

Good point about the cutscenes being kept very generic, but imo that was a mistake I hope they will not do in future chapters. Maybe making a cutscene specifically for the class will cost too much time or resources and if so...keep the fighting scenes to a minimum and let the player imagination do the work for them? Have only cutscenes with non player characters (Senya vs Veylin) and not Arcann vs PC...

 

...ofcourse I am hoping they will decide to make cutscenes specifically for the classes....even if my assassin acts like a sorcerer it will be improvement than how currently is (as she acts like an apprentice...they should have given her a practice sword:D )

 

...the rest of the different class abilities can be done via dialogue wheel:

Arcann's brother's ghost appears before the SI ''I will help you but only if you pro....hey why are you looking at me like that?!''

SI: ''Thanks for the meal!'' /performs ritual to bind force ghost.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Saelinne

[Cythereal]

I think I'd prefer we end up not beating them in a fight, actually. It seems like it would be very in-character for Arcann and Vaylin to sacrifice the entire war they lack the vision to realize they're even part of for the sake of personally beating the Outlander.

 

Especially for the Imperial Agent or Jedi Consular, I think it would be a wonderfully appropriate ending to cross your arms with a smile confronting the twins at the end and tell them that they were so narrow-minded that the physical battle is pointless, their cause is already lost.

[StarMagus]

In the story, the outlander is the most powerful being in the galaxy, the only one worthy of the emperor's attention.

 

The only one other than the Emp who defies fate and set's their own course. That isn't the most powerful being, just the only independent actor. Of course the Emp could just being blowing smoke up your wazoo.

[Garrek]

The only one other than the Emp who defies fate and set's their own course. That isn't the most powerful being, just the only independent actor. Of course the Emp could just being blowing smoke up your wazoo.

 

I don't think that's the case given the fact that he seems to choose the outlander over his own kids.

[adormitul]

Once that poisoning wears off I am sure the outlander can kill beat them. Lets be fair did we had tome to recover since we where unfrozen?

[Archanubis]

Once that poisoning wears off I am sure the outlander can kill beat them. Lets be fair did we had tome to recover since we where unfrozen?

 

To be honest, it really doesn't seem that way.

[Saelinne]

To be honest, it really doesn't seem that way.

 

Imo he/she makes a good point...at least for classes like SW and JK...since they use their lightsaber skills to kill more powerful opponents...

...ofcourse that still leaves JC and SI in the 'WTH happened?!'' zone since they shouldn't rely on their lightsaber....

Edited December 8, 2015 by Saelinne

[adormitul]

 

Imo he/she makes a good point...at least for classes like SW and JK...since they use their lightsaber skills to kill more powerful opponents...

...ofcourse that still leaves JC and SI in the 'WTH happened?!'' zone since they shouldn't rely on their lightsaber....

 

Maybe the pain from the poison does not allow them to concentrate as much so they can't use their force powers so easily?

[Kushulainn]

Greatest problem I had with the story so far is the fact that my SI wasn't allowed to use his Forcewalk in order to bind Valkorion and that Senya could just "Force-Fling" him about 100m through the air. I mean: SERIOUSLY BW?

[Chaloss]

Greatest problem I had with the story so far is the fact that my SI wasn't allowed to use his Forcewalk in order to bind Valkorion and that Senya could just "Force-Fling" him about 100m through the air. I mean: SERIOUSLY BW?

 

Valkorian is not just another force ghost and did not exactly ask your permission to come into you.

 

Senya partially caught you offguard and it is not like you weight more as SI than trooper

[CannotDeny]

 

Imo he/she makes a good point...at least for classes like SW and JK...since they use their lightsaber skills to kill more powerful opponents...

...ofcourse that still leaves JC and SI in the 'WTH happened?!'' zone since they shouldn't rely on their lightsaber....

 

Well my Sin definitely uses his lightsaber, and I like the fact that he's a mixed duelist. Force powers + Lightsabers = Extremely difficult opponent. None of that shows in cutscenes though, lol.

[Rabenschwinge]

I believe that the "power" of the characters in the story which they show cannot be taken so literal. That pretty much everyone is able to push you around as they see fit is Bioware's means to let the story continue as they planned it. It doesn't mean that everyone is more powerful than you.

 

In the case of Arcann the message is pretty clear: "Yes, Arcann is even more powerful than you are." Even though I am not exactly sure whether that is indeed the central message in the fight. The point of the cutscene may be just to give Valkorian another reason to step in. Anyway, if you had defeated Arcann at that point would not have made sense with regards to the continuation of the story.

 

When the player character finally does defeat Arcann it will be on the player character's initiative. Arcann will not seek him out and engage him, but the other way around. It was perfectly clear to me that the player character would loose even when I played it the first time, because everything else would have meant that you just stumbled over the end boss through no achievement of your own, and just defeated him because you had nothing better to do at this point.

 

It is important for the player to have a sense of a steep obstacle to overcome, which is why they need to found the alliance (well, that was Lana's work, really, the player character had little to do with it, but... let's just skip that detail) and started something in a really large scale to overcome the the Eternal Empire. Or at least Arcann and Vaylin. You are basically your own "red shirt" in this scene, it shows that Arcann is indeed dangerous. If you want to defeat them you have to work towards it.

 

What I am saying is: It is clear that the progression of the story and the turns of the story that Bioware intends are more important than giving the player a scalar power level for each and every character in the story. You cannot say X defeats Y, so X is more powerful than Y. In the next cutscene it might be the other way around.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Rabenschwinge

[Highborne]

Does it matter? We'll die of old age before finding out - one 10-minute "chapter" in five months is just pathetic, even from Bioware's established low standards. Kotfe had me resubbing, then I found out that it's that slow...what does Bioware have on the storyline team, one writer and a half-dozen monkeys typing Shakespeare?