Producer Letter Livestream Wrap-up

[Ghisallo]

While I do believe some of their announcements are indeed motivated what you call the disingenuous purpose of minimizing lost income by 'stringing people along', I also think a big part of it that they don't know if this experiment called KotFE is going to work or not, so they're leaving the door open to pivoting again down the line.

 

They may find that they get enough people subscribing just for the story content, so they don't need to ever release a new Operation at all. They may find that the 'sweet spot' is to focus on delivering ongoing story content while putting out a new Op every 18 months. They may find that this whole thing was a failure and they really do need to stick with a WoW-style model with raiding as one of their primary pillars after all.

 

Their decisions on if and when they release more Ops are probably going to be driven in large part by outcomes that don't exist yet. I don't think they have shut the door on ever doing Ops again, I think they are probably hoping to continue producing them as side content -- the same way they originally hoped to do with additional GSF content, before they decided that wasn't working out for them. But I also don't think they know what level of support they ultimately want to give that aspect of the game, because they still haven't seen how this shift away from raiding is going to pan out.

 

Oh I agree that they see this whole things as an experiment, likely cost driven. Back in July I called it that BUT used the term "gamble". My only issue is this. In digging for the quotes in the post you were responding to, I read an interview where the design team said they had the 18 months of KotFE already planned out in detail.

 

Sound good right, especially with those quotes I noted... It gives you hope that in that 18 month window we will see new open world solo stuff, maybe an FP or two... Maybe even an OP since they specifically mentioned OPs at the SDCC Cantina.

 

However with Eric's post today we see how those statements were not simply stringing people along but down right disingenuous. There are ways to string people along without it being this blatant. You could simply create an FP version of the H2 SF and call it " new PvE content", doing that actually would not be overly difficult. You could have the area on Zakuul a place you could go to without following an Alliance Alert quest, have a couple Yavin/Ziostesque dailies, maybe even a new World Boss. I just feel the manner in which they strung people along, regardless of their motives, was inexcusable and is not only disingenuous but borders on being an outright lie.

 

Imo, with Eric's latest response regarding PvE content, the only way one could argue the did not simply lie to us would be to use the rationalization Obi Wan used to explain why he really didn't lie to Luke when he said Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, and all that was in the end was a self serving rationalization on Lucas' part to justify why he had changed his mind about both Vader and Anakin since writing Episode IV.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No, it wasn't. I had 20th december in my head as a release date, making it eleven months and three weeks. I just googled it:

 

http://swtor.gamepedia.com/The_Ravagers

 

December 2014. It's december 2015 now. It means that I might have been off by one or two weeks, but the timeframe is still accurate. It was not over a year ago. Which also doesn't change my point or invalidates it. PvP players had to wait an average of 7-8 months longer now.

 

Do you want me to help you put that strawman up? It looks heavy...

 

Lol you're funny, it's cute.

However you're still absolutely wrong.

 

A couple of months isn't the same as one or two weeks ... you said 10 months, it was over 12 months since ravagers and ToS dropped

Funnier still is the link YOU posted says 2nd of December 2014, it's 12 of December 2015 now ... that's over a year or 12 months ( which isn't the same as 12 weeks if you're still playing along ).

 

As for strawman ... it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

 

And whatever point you are trying to make has long since fallen flat because you can't read a calendar properly.

[Alssaran]

And whatever point you are trying to make has long since fallen flat because you can't read a calendar properly.

 

I think it's cute that you believe someone cannot make a compelling point when his estimate about the last operations was off a bit. Yes, I was off by two months. However, that does not devaluate the point I made. The point I made was this:

PvP players have been waiting longer than PvE players after receiving less content.

 

Whether it was ten or twelve months doesn't matter. Heck, I could've been off by half a year, coming to a total of sixteen months. It still doesn't change a simple fact: One warzone released early 2014. The newest two operations released in winter 2014.

 

You can argue that "It was over a year ago" all you want. It was a year ago. Twelve months. And I'll say it again:

 

You are attacking the person behind the argument and the point because you can't poke holes into the argument itself. Looking at this from a non-subjective viewpoint still proves me right:

 

If we look at this from a "Who's the portion of the playerbase we haven't done anything for the longest?", then both GSF and PVP come to mind. PVE received two new expansions with two difficulties each a year ago. PvP players received a single warzone without any major difference or different modes much earlier in the year. Assuming the new warzone is released in April, they will have waited 24 months(!) for a warzone. Two entire years. Releasing a new operation in march would mean they'd have to wait for at least 28-30 months while the PvE players received another new operation sixteen months after the last two. Almost half the time.

 

Again: You can't attack the argument. As someone has pointed out earlier: I was off by two months. That does in no way lead the argument ad absurdum since the timeframe I missed does in no way move the last operation to an earlier date than the last warzone.

 

The point was this:

 

Looking at this from a viewpoint that entails: "Who have we ignored for longer? PvP or PvE players? Let's give the neglected community a new thing.", this move is sensible.

 

If you believe your bu**hurt attitude and your subscribing will change any plans short term, you're in for a nasty surprise. Bioware is not able to simply abandon the warzone and start working on a new operation. That operation won't release in time for the 14 month mark. That operation will not be announced in time for the 14 month mark, even if they start now. A feature development document and code testing takes an insane amount of time.

 

My point:

 

I'm saying this as a PvE player: Stop b*tching at Musco for delivering the message. No new operations until August. Period.

 

Unsubscribe all you want. Post really sad and emotional texts about how guild XY is falling apart. Bioware has the data. Bioware will act. Stop attacking people behind the argument because you can't devaluate it. Your money is worth not a single dime more than a PvP subscribers money. You got your operation overhaul. Run it. If you don't? Then leave. Don't try to rub it into this communities face. I can understand why PvP players are so hostile against the PvE community here. They receive an announcement for getting new content. First response of the PvE community?

 

I'll unsub. Announce me my stuff and develop mine at the same time. Even if that means both will be half a**ed and bugy.

[Shwarzchild]

I could be totally wrong here, but I thought they said they had all the chapters for season 1 completed already? I thought they were staggering things so that they could release things on a monthly cadence. Why, if true, say such things? I always thought this expansion was pretty huge for bioware, or at least this year in general. To me, this year simply had to be a huge step. I'm not entirely sure I can classify this year as a success. Obviously, that's totally subjected and based in everything but anything factual. It's all feels. So financially, maybe this game crushed it with Kotfe, and is still crushing it to this day. However, the general vibe I see just doesn't support that notion.

 

It seems like everything is really, truly, on hold until February. And, this coming February is going to be a gigantic month for the over all health of the game. (again my opinion). If they come out and say hey pvp map! wooT! Then try to sweep the lack of end game content development under the rug by saying something along the lines of "but look a pvp map! that's end game!", sheesh ,I'm not really entirely sure how people will react. I'm not even sure how I will react.

 

We, or maybe just me, need to see a road map for what's coming. And, this road map or whatever form of communication simply can't be on again and off again. It can't be wishy washy. And it must have a solidly laid out plan attached to it so people can see it for themselves. They need to have goals that we understand. It can't be something silly like "we have lots of stuff for you this year! more to come at 11!" We, or more specifically people like me, need to see a solid list of short term goals, and long term goals. Maybe they've put them out there already and I'm so lost in the minutia that I missed it. If so I'd request someone link me that post or discussion.

 

The bottom lines are: the end game needs attention. It needs a lot of attention. The entire end game. Not just pvp. Not just pve. Not just GSF. Story can not carry this game especially if it's in short 1-2 hour blocks per month. It's not sustainable without something more that isn't fluff from a reward system since that shouldn't be included in what content we could be reciving.

 

And, it needs it yesterday. The rescaling of operations to 65, and the changes in pvp that happened last year are simply put band aids. That practice doesn't seem healthy as a foundation. This is almost exactly what happened at launch. We all talked about it on the forums in different capacities before kotfe dropped. In my eyes, the same thing is happening yet again. Or about to happen again. It truly feels like we're getting to another very large tipping point, and there is no new cartel market to drop in as the short term stabilizer.

 

I have zero idea about game development, and I will never claim to. I'm only passing along the feeling I've received from what I'm experiencing in game. I don't experience a lot of the community outside of the raiding one. All I know is that the part of the raiding community I see most days isn't as thick as it once was, and the banter back and forth doesn't center around much outside of "how many weekly op passes have you bought up lately?"

 

I'll mark down February as "the big month". I'm seriously hoping Bioware sees it in a similar fashion as I do even if I am as insignificant as can be to this game. .

 

My apologies that this is long for whoever read it (if anyone). I'm clinging to the .00000000000000000000000001 chance the message gets received and at least pondered by the correct people. It sucks when you want to defend Bioware on this track their taking, but you simply have run out of ways to defend them when people bring things up in debate.

[Ghisallo]

I think it's cute that you believe someone cannot make a compelling point when his estimate about the last operations was off a bit. Yes, I was off by two months. However, that does not devaluate the point I made. The point I made was this:

PvP players have been waiting longer than PvE players after receiving less content.

 

Whether it was ten or twelve months doesn't matter. Heck, I could've been off by half a year, coming to a total of sixteen months. It still doesn't change a simple fact: One warzone released early 2014. The newest two operations released in winter 2014.

 

You can argue that "It was over a year ago" all you want. It was a year ago. Twelve months. And I'll say it again:

 

You are attacking the person behind the argument and the point because you can't poke holes into the argument itself. Looking at this from a non-subjective viewpoint still proves me right:

 

If we look at this from a "Who's the portion of the playerbase we haven't done anything for the longest?", then both GSF and PVP come to mind. PVE received two new expansions with two difficulties each a year ago. PvP players received a single warzone without any major difference or different modes much earlier in the year. Assuming the new warzone is released in April, they will have waited 24 months(!) for a warzone. Two entire years. Releasing a new operation in march would mean they'd have to wait for at least 28-30 months while the PvE players received another new operation sixteen months after the last two. Almost half the time.

 

Again: You can't attack the argument. As someone has pointed out earlier: I was off by two months. That does in no way lead the argument ad absurdum since the timeframe I missed does in no way move the last operation to an earlier date than the last warzone.

 

The point was this:

 

Looking at this from a viewpoint that entails: "Who have we ignored for longer? PvP or PvE players? Let's give the neglected community a new thing.", this move is sensible.

 

If you believe your bu**hurt attitude and your subscribing will change any plans short term, you're in for a nasty surprise. Bioware is not able to simply abandon the warzone and start working on a new operation. That operation won't release in time for the 14 month mark. That operation will not be announced in time for the 14 month mark, even if they start now. A feature development document and code testing takes an insane amount of time.

 

My point:

 

I'm saying this as a PvE player: Stop b*tching at Musco for delivering the message. No new operations until August. Period.

 

Unsubscribe all you want. Post really sad and emotional texts about how guild XY is falling apart. Bioware has the data. Bioware will act. Stop attacking people behind the argument because you can't devaluate it. Your money is worth not a single dime more than a PvP subscribers money. You got your operation overhaul. Run it. If you don't? Then leave. Don't try to rub it into this communities face. I can understand why PvP players are so hostile against the PvE community here. They receive an announcement for getting new content. First response of the PvE community?

 

I'll unsub. Announce me my stuff and develop mine at the same time. Even if that means both will be half a**ed and bugy.

 

First let me preface by saying I may be a tad "old school" when it comes to PvP. To me PvP content is made by the participants... The map etc doesn't matter, I am there to play against another human being.

 

That out of the way, you do realize why the new map is coming correct? Exactly what I note above. It doesn't take a lot to make a map, no mobs that need dps and hps tuning, no scripts to make sure don't bug, you don't need to worry about things, like in Ravagers, where a two part encounter will simply reset at the transition etc.

 

Why do I point this out? Because you have, in essence, turned this into a rather childish argument of "well we waited longer than 'you' did." The fact they are saying a new map is in the works BUT nothing at all to say about PvE, is actually emblematic of the issue many of us are discussing, financially the game is far from healthy and they re currently simply trying to do this "on the cheap."

 

Look at things logically for a moment. Go to Torstatus and look at the server status histories saved there. How bad do the PvP servers look? Is simply a new map going to change the quality of the PvP in this game? Is it going to suddenly make many who left comeback to do the exact same stuff they did before, simply with different furniture in the room, because ultimately that's all a warfront is, a room with new furniture, often the same furniture, simply arranged differently.

 

Tbh the more I look at this whole scheme the more I am coming to the following thought. EA and BW aren't completely stupid. They know that MMORPGs, like SWTOR, do not have any player subculture that is a monolithic majority, the communities are made up of a number of minority groups of varying sizes and many of these minorities have a historic rivalries to one degree or another with the other minorities. Their marketing and statements in these forums have not only served to string along particular minorities BUT to create flash points to fuel these historic rivalries. Their actions and the latest statement keep that fuel burning.

 

We can see the same being done here to a degree and the result is clear. Everyone with the exception of the story fan who doesn't care about the playable content, even the PvPer, should be cranky as all hell with BW at this point BUT BW has taken advantage of the rivalries. They knew that many solo players, even if they aren't completely story focused, would immediately jump to their defense, the minute someone who sees MMORPGs as primarily a group effort started complaining, even though they released only 1 new piece of non-story solo content.

 

How? Because they saw those battles happen when people complained about not enough elder game at launch, then in the lead up to SoR. They saw the same thing when complaints about PvP, or the lack thereof, were raised and people immediately defended it by saying things like "PvP is just a sideline here." They new the minute they said "new warfront" that some PvPers would cheer and immediately go after the PvEers. There is a term for this... Bread and Circuses. make grand statements, give divert and distract as many as possible by providing instant gratification of a superficial desire and then they being content, for the short, will jump on anyone they see as threatening to that immediate gratification, even if in the long term that "threat" has a point.

 

Worked for Rome, Spain, the British and French Empires, BUT in the end you simply can't sustain it because the instant gratification of a superficial desire only appeases people for so long.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Ghisallo

[TX_Angel]

I'll say this as best as I can. I'd like to remind people that I am also a raider...

 

Eric just got out of his way, as sad as that is to admit, to announce that a new warzone is coming. That is something PvP players have been waiting for, on top of some class balance. Looking at this from a non-linear and non-subjective viewpoint, I think it's not that bad that Bioware is prioritizing PvP players until mid 2016.

 

Seriously? Really? So you're giving BW a pass for doing ONE new PvP map in the first 6 months of 2016 and nothing else for any group content?

 

Whole new games are made from SCRATCH in the time that you're giving them between raids.

 

You can twist the idea all you want: PvE players received two new operations in SoR. That was ten months ago. The last time PvP players received anything was almost eighteen months ago. That was one warzone.

 

No, it was a year ago (Dec 2014), and based on what Eric said, it'll be likely a 2 year gap before we get another one...

 

I might not really like the news above, seeing this is a PvP news and I'm a PvE player, but I think that the next logical step would have been to make a warzone. And following the patterns we'd be getting one or two (minor) operations in late 2016.

 

It isn't enough of either, full stop.

 

Development takes time.

 

It doesn't take THIS much time, they just haven't been working on it.

 

Please, don't try to force Bioware to switch their focus off from PvP or rush something. Nobody is getting anything good when you try to rush them.

 

At this pace BW will be playing the game by themselves before too long, Friday night and Harby was the only standard server, everything else light...

[Alssaran]

How? Because they saw those battles happen when people complained about not enough elder game at launch, then in the lead up to SoR. They saw the same thing when complaints about PvP, or the lack thereof, were raised and people immediately defended it by saying things like "PvP is just a sideline here." They new the minute they said "new warfront" that some PvPers would cheer and immediately go after the PvEers. There is a term for this... Bread and Circuses. make grand statements, give divert and distract as many as possible by providing instant gratification of a superficial desire and then they being content, for the short, will jump on anyone they see as threatening to that immediate gratification, even if in the long term that "threat" has a point.

 

This whole premise is flawed based on one thought:

 

That I am part of the first community, jumping in defense at the second one. That isn't the case. It is simply plain and flat out wrong. I'm part of the second community, jumping inbetween there to make my issues with the second community vocal.

 

I'm a PvE player at heart. I've raided progression raids since back in Classic WoW. I cleared the Tier 2 content and killed three bosses in the earliest Naxxramas times before moving on to BC. That kept going all the way till ICC and the Lich kind was slain on hard difficulty. I have also raided some HM/NiM operations in this game, at least back in the day. Never have I touched competitive PvP in a game.

 

I'm not a PvP player defending his new toy here. You know what I'm pointing out?

 

The sickening characteristics of a community I have been a part of. One that I, possibly only after playing this very game, do not cherrish myself to be a part of. The PvE community in this game is one of the most toxic ones I have encountered. I've played some games in the past, including different MMORPGs and (as pointed out) World of Warcraft. Yet I have never seen a PvE community that is so self absorbed.

 

Let's adress a few points you make:

 

To me PvP content is made by the participants... The map etc doesn't matter, I am there to play against another human being.

 

Couldn't the same thing be said for PvE?

 

It was never about the operation. It was never about the raid. It wasn't even about the rewards. It was the people you raided with that gave PvE content meaning and purpose. Please, let's not pretend that PvE and PvP are different in that regard. Both are a grindfest, worthy of only the worst chinese farming skills. What gave both content meaning is the fact that you run it with people.

 

Back in Ulduar, it didn't matter to us if there was a new instance coming. The instance could've been around for a year. It could have been bad. I have fond memories of that time because of the people I played with. I had fun playing with them. So, please don't use this "PvP is made by the participants". Releasing no new map by that logic is just backfiring. Isn't it always the same in PvE? Getting out of the fire? In essence, yes.

 

The fact they are saying a new map is in the works BUT nothing at all to say about PvE, is actually emblematic of the issue many of us are discussing, financially the game is far from healthy and they re currently simply trying to do this "on the cheap."

 

This is not news. Frankly, it is a symptom of this very disease that I'm pointing out to be majorly flawed. It is this whole "I'm unsubscribing" business. Seriously, we do not care. Not at all. I don't need to announce big time when I unsubscribe. Go to your account, hit the unsubscribe button. Enter "No new PvE content!" as a reason and click accept. That is what counts. But don't annoy all of us with your fake rebellion on a forum. It will not accomplish anything. EA isn't going to invest so much more money into the game because you announce it. Post constructive criticism, yes. But don't start it with "As of today, I'm unsubscribed.". It's pretentious, it's something nobody cares about.

 

Go to Torstatus and look at the server status histories saved there. How bad do the PvP servers look? Is simply a new map going to change the quality of the PvP in this game? Is it going to suddenly make many who left comeback to do the exact same stuff they did before, simply with different furniture in the room, because ultimately that's all a warfront is, a room with new furniture, often the same furniture, simply arranged differently.

 

It won't.

 

But neither will a new Operation fix the issues behind the PvE in this game. Let's face this for a moment: Progressive PvE hasn't been a focus in this game for years. Not since 3.0 released. Ever since the middle of 3.0, people should have been aware that there was nothing in terms of more progression coming. Bioware was fair and square before KotFE:

 

There will be no new raid operations with Knights of the Fallen Empire.

 

That information was on for all to see. There was no deception here. It was just that people constructed arguments like "This only means during release!" or "He said in that inveriew once that there was supposed to be more!". At this point you are simply in all flat out denial. The post above has made it pretty clear:

 

No new operation stuff to talk about. Period. All your anger on the forum will not reinforce their position about this. Frankly, I think it's sick how people attack the messenger. Unsubscribe, go. If you feel the need to do it, post constructive criticism. Actual ideas how to fix it. We don't need your sad story about how your hamster died in the hopes of seeing you raid once more. It's useless. Sorry about that. It is. It's like the guy on reddit: Bioware lied to us!

 

From a certain point of view? Yes. That's life. No company is ever going to play fair and square with you.

 

Tbh the more I look at this whole scheme the more I am coming to the following thought. EA and BW aren't completely stupid. They know that MMORPGs, like SWTOR, do not have any player subculture that is a monolithic majority, the communities are made up of a number of minority groups of varying sizes and many of these minorities have a historic rivalries to one degree or another with the other minorities.

 

To a certain extend, yes. But we can assume that there is one group that is the biggest of all: The group of casual gamers who do not give a single thought to focus. I guess most people in this game are simply here because of "Twi'leks and lightsabers!". Yes, I do not like cutting off a minority for over a year, but that's what it is. Bioware has made a decision here. The next thing releasing will be a warzone. Nothing we can do will change that. Bioware isn't going to prioritize one subculture over the other because a few people unsubscribe. If they do, PvP players will have been lied to and unsubscribe.

 

We can see the same being done here to a degree and the result is clear. Everyone with the exception of the story fan who doesn't care about the playable content, even the PvPer, should be cranky as all hell with BW at this point BUT BW has taken advantage of the rivalries. They knew that many solo players, even if they aren't completely story focused, would immediately jump to their defense, the minute someone who sees MMORPGs as primarily a group effort started complaining, even though they released only 1 new piece of non-story solo content.

 

I don't like this as much as the next guy, really. Not at all. But this is what the game has become. That is the end of it. I play it for the people. For the community I have been part of. That is a community of gamers who just jump in and play once or twice a week. It is still somewhat working. Delivering monthly story updates for those gamers and a new warzone to play with them? I'd take that. The moment Bioware announces that there will be some form of content with each new chapter, styled like the Zakuul arena, that is the moment during which Bioware has saved that second community I'm part of.

 

And do you want to hear the self-centered and egoistic part of my post? I couldn't care less about your guild. About the hardcore PvE community. I have come to despise that community, even though I was part of it. If eradicating a small portion of that community means that 90% of the people in this game can get monthly updates starting in february? Then that's what it takes.

 

It is a selfish thing to say, almost as bad as the PvE stance on this. You have your community, that's fine. But you are an unknown player to me. I have to look out for my community first. The community is discussing what monthly content with each chapter means and agreeing that it could be enough to keep it.

 

This game has simply moved to a point where spending large sums into every direction at once is not going to happen. If you unsub, EA will simply close the game. They will not, without any doubt at all, invest large quantities of dollars into this game to get the chance of turning profit.

 

At the end of the day, I didn't like KotFE because of the crunch time between the first nince chapters and ten. Not because of no new operations. Not because of the grind. If there is an SF esque feature with every chapter and a new warzone, and "better than cross server!" next year? Sure, I'll take it.

 

make grand statements, give divert and distract as many as possible by providing instant gratification of a superficial desire and then they being content, for the short, will jump on anyone they see as threatening to that immediate gratification, even if in the long term that "threat" has a point.

 

I'm not even saying you don't have a point. But at this specific time, if investing into more than one content isn't possible, then one at a time it is. Let's start with PvP and monthly solo/duo content in the chapters.

 

You can keep reasoning all you want. In the end, nothing will change the facts here:

 

Next thing is a warzone. No concrete information on operations as of yet.

 

Will unsubscribing change that? No, not in the short term. Even if you unsubscribe now, that will only tell Bioware to consider making an operation. It will still result in no substantial information until the summer of 2016.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Alssaran

[TX_Angel]

PvP players have been waiting longer than PvE players after receiving less content.[/b]

 

True, but it doesn't matter...

 

Both have been waiting far too long... Bioware is quickly approaching the point of no-return. They might have already passed it, we'll see in the first quarter of 2016 what happens...

 

2013 was nice, 2014 was ok, 2015 was a disaster... 2016 is shaping up to be even worse (if that is possible...)

[angushammet]

Hi Everyone,

 

Recall : a wake-up call action will take place on Tuesday 15th of December at 8:30PM CET (Paris)

 

Join us on our live Twitch adressed to Eric MUSCO, and show Bioware it is time to bring this game back to life with MULTIPLAYER content !

 

Thank all of you for your support

 

http://www.twitch.tv/section_wookiee_xxi

[Nebdar]

Searching through unoptimized alliance or crew skill window for the right companion pains me....

 

I don't want to do anymore Chapters, or recruit anyone because searching for the 1 companion in the alliance window or the 6 crafting companions in crew skills windows it is just @#$%$%@@#!^&%& INSANE

 

rank 50 companion does Rich lvl 7 mission in 4m 52sec it is just @#$%$%@@#!^&%& INSANE that every 5-10min you have to waste time to search companion... find the mission.... it is just driving me

INSANE

[Ghisallo]

This whole premise is flawed based on one thought:

 

That I am part of the first community, jumping in defense at the second one. That isn't the case. It is simply plain and flat out wrong. I'm part of the second community, jumping inbetween there to make my issues with the second community vocal.

 

I'm a PvE player at heart. I've raided progression raids since back in Classic WoW. I cleared the Tier 2 content and killed three bosses in the earliest Naxxramas times before moving on to BC. That kept going all the way till ICC and the Lich kind was slain on hard difficulty. I have also raided some HM/NiM operations in this game, at least back in the day. Never have I touched competitive PvP in a game.

 

I'm not a PvP player defending his new toy here. You know what I'm pointing out?

 

The sickening characteristics of a community I have been a part of. One that I, possibly only after playing this very game, do not cherrish myself to be a part of. The PvE community in this game is one of the most toxic ones I have encountered. I've played some games in the past, including different MMORPGs and (as pointed out) World of Warcraft. Yet I have never seen a PvE community that is so self absorbed.

 

Let's adress a few points you make:

 

 

 

Couldn't the same thing be said for PvE?

 

It was never about the operation. It was never about the raid. It wasn't even about the rewards. It was the people you raided with that gave PvE content meaning and purpose. Please, let's not pretend that PvE and PvP are different in that regard. Both are a grindfest, worthy of only the worst chinese farming skills. What gave both content meaning is the fact that you run it with people.

 

Back in Ulduar, it didn't matter to us if there was a new instance coming. The instance could've been around for a year. It could have been bad. I have fond memories of that time because of the people I played with. I had fun playing with them. So, please don't use this "PvP is made by the participants". Releasing no new map by that logic is just backfiring. Isn't it always the same in PvE? Getting out of the fire? In essence, yes.

 

 

 

This is not news. Frankly, it is a symptom of this very disease that I'm pointing out to be majorly flawed. It is this whole "I'm unsubscribing" business. Seriously, we do not care. Not at all. I don't need to announce big time when I unsubscribe. Go to your account, hit the unsubscribe button. Enter "No new PvE content!" as a reason and click accept. That is what counts. But don't annoy all of us with your fake rebellion on a forum. It will not accomplish anything. EA isn't going to invest so much more money into the game because you announce it. Post constructive criticism, yes. But don't start it with "As of today, I'm unsubscribed.". It's pretentious, it's something nobody cares about.

 

 

 

It won't.

 

But neither will a new Operation fix the issues behind the PvE in this game. Let's face this for a moment: Progressive PvE hasn't been a focus in this game for years. Not since 3.0 released. Ever since the middle of 3.0, people should have been aware that there was nothing in terms of more progression coming. Bioware was fair and square before KotFE:

 

There will be no new raid operations with Knights of the Fallen Empire.

 

That information was on for all to see. There was no deception here. It was just that people constructed arguments like "This only means during release!" or "He said in that inveriew once that there was supposed to be more!". At this point you are simply in all flat out denial. The post above has made it pretty clear:

 

No new operation stuff to talk about. Period. All your anger on the forum will not reinforce their position about this. Frankly, I think it's sick how people attack the messenger. Unsubscribe, go. If you feel the need to do it, post constructive criticism. Actual ideas how to fix it. We don't need your sad story about how your hamster died in the hopes of seeing you raid once more. It's useless. Sorry about that. It is. It's like the guy on reddit: Bioware lied to us!

 

From a certain point of view? Yes. That's life. No company is ever going to play fair and square with you.

 

 

 

To a certain extend, yes. But we can assume that there is one group that is the biggest of all: The group of casual gamers who do not give a single thought to focus. I guess most people in this game are simply here because of "Twi'leks and lightsabers!". Yes, I do not like cutting off a minority for over a year, but that's what it is. Bioware has made a decision here. The next thing releasing will be a warzone. Nothing we can do will change that. Bioware isn't going to prioritize one subculture over the other because a few people unsubscribe. If they do, PvP players will have been lied to and unsubscribe.

 

 

 

I don't like this as much as the next guy, really. Not at all. But this is what the game has become. That is the end of it. I play it for the people. For the community I have been part of. That is a community of gamers who just jump in and play once or twice a week. It is still somewhat working. Delivering monthly story updates for those gamers and a new warzone to play with them? I'd take that. The moment Bioware announces that there will be some form of content with each new chapter, styled like the Zakuul arena, that is the moment during which Bioware has saved that second community I'm part of.

 

And do you want to hear the self-centered and egoistic part of my post? I couldn't care less about your guild. About the hardcore PvE community. I have come to despise that community, even though I was part of it. If eradicating a small portion of that community means that 90% of the people in this game can get monthly updates starting in february? Then that's what it takes.

 

It is a selfish thing to say, almost as bad as the PvE stance on this. You have your community, that's fine. But you are an unknown player to me. I have to look out for my community first. The community is discussing what monthly content with each chapter means and agreeing that it could be enough to keep it.

 

This game has simply moved to a point where spending large sums into every direction at once is not going to happen. If you unsub, EA will simply close the game. They will not, without any doubt at all, invest large quantities of dollars into this game to get the chance of turning profit.

 

At the end of the day, I didn't like KotFE because of the crunch time between the first nince chapters and ten. Not because of no new operations. Not because of the grind. If there is an SF esque feature with every chapter and a new warzone, and "better than cross server!" next year? Sure, I'll take it.

 

 

 

I'm not even saying you don't have a point. But at this specific time, if investing into more than one content isn't possible, then one at a time it is. Let's start with PvP and monthly solo/duo content in the chapters.

 

You can keep reasoning all you want. In the end, nothing will change the facts here:

 

Next thing is a warzone. No concrete information on operations as of yet.

 

Will unsubscribing change that? No, not in the short term. Even if you unsubscribe now, that will only tell Bioware to consider making an operation. It will still result in no substantial information until the summer of 2016.

 

First...Okay fine you aren't a PvPer... The thing is though if you look at all the posts and their history you see an interesting trend... Example... During the Companion solo players saying how the OP companions were necessary because of the grind that the nerfed companions turned the rehashed content into, content that should not, according to they themselves, have been recycled by level sync. Now many of these people are still complaining about level sync and the lack of new solo content in a level sync thread BUT then saying "oh BW has it right" in threads where the lack of OPs and FPS is mentioned.

 

As for the second I do not know if you are purposefully being obtuse or not. PvE NEEDS specific content. You need something, I don't care if it is a simple open world rat, trash in an FP or an OPs boss... You need things in the "E" in PvE, for players to go at... The people are definitely part of the equation but without that E you VOIP is nothing more than a party line, if a solo player little different than Second Life.

 

And I am not trying to change the facts but you get yours wrong when it comes to me. I spent my first year and half in this game soloing and running the occasional FP..that's it. I was fine with that. I eventually found a guild of nice people and when I took the invite I did not even know they ran OPs... I have just run a few FPs with some members, they seemed like good people, so I accepted an invitation and that was in like December of 2014.

 

Why did that work? Because on the PvE front there was almost always something new to do. I was no where near the bleeding edge of progression, even in the Casual Guild I am part of now so it was only a matter of a couple months before I knew I would have a new story to play through, another world to explore as that solo player. Now I have a story...which I won't see another chapter of till February... Which has no replay value beyond "well my alt has to do the exact same thing, well, just because" and no repeatable content whatsoever that I have not one before however many times. It doesn't matter if it is no new OP, FP, or solo quest, there is nothing new but that story. If this was 2 odd years ago my guild could disappear tomorrow and I would be a happy clam, missing some people, soloing my way across the Galaxy experiencing new things. The hugeness of this game is what I loved. Eric's announcement in just a couple sentences, put that game to rest.

 

You clearly miss the why of all of this as well. It has nothing to do with some vaguely moral reason about "PvP has waited longer". A warfront is simple cheap and easy to build. It is, in essence, the cheapest and easiest thing for them to slap together so they can say " see we gave you something more than just 7 hours of cut scenes spread out over 10 months and subscriber reward fluff.".

 

TBH I think the WF was already largely done. Back in the middle of SoR they talked about a new warfront they were working on and people kept calling them out on when it was going to be released. Based on the early 2015 interviews when they said they had the 18 months of this expac planned out I would wager they never answers that question because when they came up with the plan for this expac they decided "keep the new warfront in the can until the next expac, we need something else to throw in there because they crushed our budget."

 

And if you doubt their budget is a lot smaller than the last time around let me direct you to Brian Ohlen who said, in regards to this games development that the least expensive part of the game is the cutscene and voice acting. To make it even more clear stuff that would been voice acted previously here is not. To make that point yet again even more clear the H2 SF (sorry there is ONE new thing) has portions of its resources used for the "solo" SF and the rest is all recycled due to mechanical gimckry.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Ghisallo

[countdemons]

A multiplayer game with no multiflayer content. Ahahah gg bioware

[Deyjarl]

Hi Everyone,

 

Recall : a wake-up call action will take place on Tuesday 15th of December at 8:30PM CET (Paris)

 

Join us on our live Twitch adressed to Eric MUSCO, and show Bioware it is time to bring this game back to life with MULTIPLAYER content !

 

Thank all of you for your support

 

http://www.twitch.tv/section_wookiee_xxi

 

They won't change a thing as long as it doesn't affect their pocket book.

[xeqtoRDoom]

As much as I love this game I think this is beginning of the end. They are trying to orientate the game towards single player with heavy focus on the the story, while group content is on the sidelines. Unfortunately single player games have a much lower life span then multiplayer games. No matter how much I love Mass Effect, Skyrim, Kotor they get boring even tho the story is a lot better then SWTORs . SWTOR just can't compete with solo player games in terms of story, gameplay, graphics and whats more important you dont have to pay each month to play those games.

 

 

They have made a decision to pursue the story this year and perhaps till the end of SWTORs lifetime. You have to understand they've put considerable amount of resources, time and money into it. Even if the community says its a bad decision and Dev's begin to realize this, it is too late to do anything about it this year. From economics stand point they need to finish their plan for this year for better or worse or they would lose a lot of money for nothing. Of course they cant admit they've made a mistake cuz that would be a business suicide and they would lose their jobs etc. They don't have enough staff and EA is to cheap to throw more money to do 2 things simultaneously, thats why PvP has always suffered. They just couldnt do PvE and PvP at the same time.

 

Since they are still polishing the remaining chapters and they will do that for next couple of months. After that they could transfer the staff on PvE content but even if that happens I can't see new ops before late 2016, early 2017. Unfortunately that is too long for me to stay subbed. I will move on to other games and maybe when enough story accumulates I will sub for a month and will enjoy the game for couple of days.

Edited December 12, 2015 by xeqtoRDoom

[_NovaBlast_]

Hey folks,

 

On the PvE side, we do not have anything specific to announce at this time but we will certainly share more information as we have it.

 

The team is hard at work on the 7 remaining Chapters in Season 1, as well as additional content, which you will get monthly starting in February. For us, it is important that all of the our content, group content included, ties into the storyline of Fallen Empire and connects to your character’s story.

 

Story is what sets The Old Republic apart and it is important for us to deliver your personal story across all aspects of the game. -eric

 

Thanks Eric You have already announced everything I am looking forward to PVE wise and I think this is a great move for swtor 's future..

 

I am still puzzled by why you went with the ...robot... as your subscriber perk.... but if your metrics say that he is the most popular as it did with the story and companion content and that is what the majority wanted I will just accept that I part of a minority in this case

 

...really does not change anything for me just another thing i wont ever use .... like that nico companion..... Mabey next time you could have a sexy new human female romance companion since you have robot and a male now.

( or a temp comp you worked with returning one come back ...Jaxo...... for example I would love that...)

 

I really love the new focus on story and solo pve as you said story has always been the true core of SWTOR and what sets it apart from, other MMORPG in a great way and getting new monthly repeatable story content updates is going to be amazing,

 

**Hint .....miss kira....hope her chapter comes sooner than later LOL **

Edited December 12, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Kacynski]

Well, I can't help but feel like this was it for SWTOR as a MMO. We get a new warzone, but that seems to be it for 2016 beside the story chapters. And the story chapters are not enough of an incentive to keep me subbed.

 

Just now I feel really sad, because I think (as others said already in this thread) that with the new direction this game is taking there will not be enough to be done for guilds and the core social aspect of an MMO - the guilds - will be left to rot in the dust.

 

This is not to say "we need raids to keep the game going", but "we need things that are fun to be done in a group with others and common goals to aspire for". And frankly with Eric's latest announcement I see nothing of that. The rehashed opertions will not keep guilds busy for long, also the uplevelled FP's wont. Conquest was a very good idea and it kept our guild going in 2015, but we achieved most of our goals there and will most likely not heavily participate in 2016. So, what are we getting, in terms of goals for a guild to accomplish? Baiscally nothing, as it seems for now.

 

I don't think this is a direction any MMO can survive.

[bombsbaby]

Lovely no new content for seen for ops and not to mention this bull **** with current NIM ops not dropping NIM loot like it has since the game was launched. Sure titles are nice but we also like the rewards of getting better gear. When this game launched the goal was to always get that NIM loot which required killing NIM bosses and those people you would see on fleet when seeing that gear on them made you want to work harder to earn it. Now this current tier I'm full 224's and killed only 1 nim boss because of this loot issue. I find it rediculous

[KeyboardNinja]

The sad thing is, at this point, we're all just venting. Nothing we say can really change anything. Even if the leadership at Bioware reads through this thread and has a complete change of heart. Even if they decided right now that they need to get an op out as soon as possible, and put a heavier priority on end game group content, it wouldn't make a difference.

 

The die was cast six months ago. Maybe eight months ago. They made the decision to abandon their multiplayer endgame and focus almost exclusively on solo content. They could reverse that decision, but the lead time is immense. It takes a long, long time to create and balance an operation. Operation bosses are far more demanding in terms of mechanics and uniqueness than anything else in the game, meaning that it often isn't just a matter of scripting things on top of the existing engine. For example: HM Revan contains several mechanics which I guarantee were impossible in the engine pre-3.0. HM Coratanni has one, Master-Blaster has one (technically two, since silences didn't exist in the game before that fight). Scripting an encounter is difficult. Changing the game engine so that you can script the encounter is nearly impossible, and yet that's what they had to do every time they released a new op.

 

As a comparison, PvP maps generally require at most one or two mechanics that were not previously scriptable within the engine. They're enormously smaller spaces (even 8v8s), and they have far fewer moving parts to balance. Balance is still important, and requires a lot of work, but I think a good benchmark to how much easier PvP maps are to balance than PvE operations is the fact that all of the 8v8 maps are extremely well balanced and competitive across varying comps, and only Voidstar and Civil War had to go through long periods of tweaking to get things right. (e.g. Novare launched and was basically perfect, and remains one of the best balanced maps) Literally none of the PvE content has ever been fully tuned, even after many many patch cycles.

 

I'm not making excuses for them. This is an MMO; you have to deal with those problems, improve your development methodology and frameworks and move forward on schedule. But it puts in perspective just how much work and time would be involved in doing an about face.

 

The sad reality is that the community cannot wait this long. Bioware may even realize that now, but it's too late. They're committed. 4.0 is the NGE of SWTOR, and even if they wanted to go back, it would take them long enough to do so that no one who remained to see it would care one way or another.

 

The endgame community is dead, and will gradually transition out of the game. Some people will leave sooner rather than later (some, such as Zorz, left even before 4.0 arrived). Others will hold on for friends or hope of change, but even these will eventually become disheartened and leave. In a year, the only people who remain in SWTOR will be those who want a grindy, linear story experience in the Star Wars IP. (so basically, FFXIII: Star Wars Edition?)

 

This makes me immeasurably sad. I loved this game. I want to continue raiding in it, tweaking the classes, modeling things, helping to run a major raiding guild. If I didn't love the game, I would have been gone long ago. But now… There's nothing left for me, and as with the rest of the endgame community, I will eventually and inevitably leave.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I think it's cute that you believe someone cannot make a compelling point when his estimate about the last operations was off a bit. Yes, I was off by two months. However, that does not devaluate the point I made. The point I made was this:

[

 

You then tried to justify it AGAIN and say you were only about by 1-2 weeks even though the proof you put forward contradicted your own argument and then had the gaul to call me the strawman. I can't be bothered reading the rest of your text wall, it will be too full of inaccuracies based on past experience.

[Hellhog]

BioWare,

 

I'm sure you can see most of the disappointment in all of these posts. I happily subbed long ago while leveling my first character after finding the game fun and compelled by the progression of story and leveling. I was originally drawn as a fan of the KOTOR series and by the advertised "Fully Voiced MMO." As I came into end game content, I fell in love with progression raiding and warzones. However you are greatly letting down a large part of the community and one that is negatively affecting me and others as more and more quality players leave the game.

 

I remember you letting us know apologetically as 3.0 was releasing that you'd never go such a long period without releasing new operations again. Instead you went back on your word and gave us nothing more than an instanced boss that caused many high level guilds to leave the game due to their disappointment in the loot drop being better than that of the current operations hurting progression. Now you've given us old content scaled up to our level that many raiders have already spent countless hours progressing on over a year ago and have no interest in playing anymore. It's been made worse by your announcement of Nightmare level operations giving gear no better than that of Hardmode operations effectively killing off progression in this rehashed content. And now you announce that again you will go over a year without releasing new operation content again effectively killing off progression raiding as more and more quality players leave the game putting a strain on the loyal raiders still playing.

 

Finally you've decided that after 2 years plus that a new warzone should be added. This is ridiculous. It's nice that you've finally decided to add more content for the PvPers but disappointing that it took this long for a game that you expect people to pay a monthly subscription for. Last I checked people playing multiplayer PvP style games like Call of Duty and Battlefield don't have to pay a subscription fee to enjoy the same maps for years over and over. Why should someone that only PvPs?

 

As for the story, yes, I've enjoyed KotFE so far and the story aspect of the game. After all, it's why I originally played SWTOR. But I mentioned above that you guys advertised this game as "Fully Voiced." You have since gone back on that with your lazy addition of "Classic Conversations." It's a shame that this was the direction your studio chose to go with just as a cost saving measure.

 

At this point it is clear that you mainly expect people to sub for 1 chapter (which equates out to about 1 hour of story content) and 1 exclusive item a month. This is just insane and not worth that value at all.

 

Unfortunately I'm going to have to let me sub drop like many others once the period ends. I can't justify paying $15 a month for an hour of story content, some exclusive item I don't want, and progression I can't do since all the other good progression raiders have already left or stopped raiding. It's effectively killed what I've enjoyed about this game for over year. I hope you can realize that this MMO has been more than just story content to many. That there are other communities within the game that enjoy various parts of it. I'm sure this will become more apparent within 1-2 months when people stop renewing their subscriptions.

 

If you want to appease a large part of the community and stop the damage from growing. You need to make Nightmare content more valuable again than Hardmode. Remove the Priority Operation system or at least scale up the difficulty of the Priority Operation. Give Nightmare difficulty better guaranteed loot drops than Hardmode. And release 1-2 new operations so that there is a reason for raiders to do progression on Nightmare mode again and exciting new content for raiders to play. Otherwise the longer the games continues this business as usual trend, the more this community continues to die off.

 

/end rant, venting, or whatever you want to call it. I just needed to get this off my chest.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Hellhog

[AlrikFassbauer]

The die was cast six months ago. Maybe eight months ago. They made the decision to abandon their multiplayer endgame and focus almost exclusively on solo content.

 

[Cynism]This is why there are no longer offline soloplayer games out there ?[/Cynism]

[MuskyBoy]

You guys just don't know what good end game is do you? I mean you get to grind another 250000 affection points with another HK companion. This has far more replay ability then any new operation and ties into the story really well considering when he gets destroyed he was a one of a kind with no memory backup. IDK why people rate the story so much its actually not that good (til now, may get better but choices don't seem to matter) and fails in comparison to the original stories of Knight, warrior, agent and inquisitor.

[Andermann]

Hey folks,

 

We know you are looking for more information on the timing of future group content. Although I cannot go into any details yet I will say this… We are actively working on a new Warzone, and we are looking to start revealing details in February (Insert my usual disclaimer of all things are subject to change). On the PvE side, we do not have anything specific to announce at this time but we will certainly share more information as we have it.

 

The team is hard at work on the 7 remaining Chapters in Season 1, as well as additional content, which you will get monthly starting in February. For us, it is important that all of the our content, group content included, ties into the storyline of Fallen Empire and connects to your character’s story. Story is what sets The Old Republic apart and it is important for us to deliver your personal story across all aspects of the game.

 

We hope that this addresses some of the concerns that you may have. As always, I will pass on updates as I have them. Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

While this is fine, could you answer questions concerning the subscriber perks? This live stream was about that, and you finished the stream repeating frequently that you would answer questions about subscriber perks quickly in this thread. No answers to the actual topic at hand as of yet.

[damonskye]

The sad reality is that the community cannot wait this long. Bioware may even realize that now, but it's too late. They're committed. 4.0 is the NGE of SWTOR, and even if they wanted to go back, it would take them long enough to do so that no one who remained to see it would care one way or another.

 

In before someone accuses you of hyperbole, even though you are 100% right. Again.

[damonskye]

Unfortunately I'm going to have to let me sub drop like many others once the period ends. I can't justify paying $15 a month for an hour of story content, some exclusive item I don't want, and progression I can't do since all the other good progression raiders have already left or stopped raiding.

 

The sad part is, so many of us who have been playing since the game came out are doing the same (I took the auto-renew off my subscription when the companion debacle happened). I think Revan was the zenith of the game, and it's downhill from here. So sad. (And no, none of you can have my stuff. Besides, you won't need it when the game's dead anyway.)