Let's face it. The Massive Companion Grinding isn't fun and why the Comp Nerf is...

[MotorCityMan]

Such a huge issue.

 

The Comps before the nerfs made actually doing the Alliance stuff not a super chore just barely manageable. With the nerf everyone's slowly realizing how much of a grind the Alliance stuff really is and are rightfully angry as it isn't pretty insane.

 

Ya, g-whiz might even have to find another player to do Heroic +2s. How maddening is that.

[StarMagus]

I love the fact that now mmo players sound like my grandfather.

 

"Back in my day we didn't have cars to take us to school, we had to walk up hills in 5 feet of snow. Once I had to fight off a bear with my loose leaf notebook."

 

Sure, in the past MMO's were stupidly grindy. People didn't know any better and that was how they were made. The trend with modern MMO's is to get away from that because people don't like it. Sure you might have a few hold outs, but then I still see a few hold outs saying how they don't need no color TV black and white is fine with them so it should be fine for everybody. I look at them in much the same way.

Edited November 24, 2015 by StarMagus

[Tuskenkiller]

I love the fact that now mmo players sound like my grandfather.

 

"Back in my day we didn't have cars to take us to school, we had to walk up hills in 5 feet of snow. Once I had to fight off a bear with my loose leaf notebook."

 

Sure, in the past MMO's were stupidly grindy. People didn't know any better and that was how they were made. The trend with modern MMO's is to get away from that because people don't like it. Sure you might have a few hold outs, but then I still see a few hold outs saying how they don't need no color TV black and white is fine with them so it should be fine for everybody. I look at them in much the same way.

 

Yeah yeah blabber all you want about the old timers but older i mean much older mmos had a ton of features that would make "new" mmos hide in shame....yes Swtor im looking at you and you're pathetic atempt of a crafting system...look back at Swg with the best craftng system ever and all we get here is a clickfest with no depth whatsoever.

 

MMos have evolved and not for the best,new mmo playing comunity is one the worst i have ever seen,all filled with lazy ***** morons who are all about ME ME ME and NOW NOW NOW hence me coming up with a nickname of them,i call them MENOWS.

 

So you can kid youself all you want but the grind is a major pillar of an mmo,take that away and what do you get?

A level 65 player in a fp who doesnt know that he could cc a mob for 60 seconds,yeah ths is what we get.

So i welcome tougher content,i welcome comps that arent OP,maybe this way we willl get the players to actually have to play the game,read the skill/power descriptions a actually use them when needed.

 

Tuskenkiller out!!

Edited November 24, 2015 by Tuskenkiller

[Raphael_diSanto]

No, that's a game design choice. And SWG's crafting wasn't anywhere near as good as Vanguard's. It hasn't gotten worse. FF14's crafting is quite involved, for example. It's just that it's not even close to a focus for the TOR team. TOR crafting is an afterthought. FF14's isn't. It's game-specific.

 

Many old school MMO players do sound like the grandfather. I was one, and I try my hardest not to. I have no desire to work as hard as I did when I played EQ1.

 

I might party like it's 1999, but I sure as heck don't want to game like it's 1999.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Raphael_diSanto

[Oldsailor]

I think the biggest problem is not the grind for a single character, but the grind for the number of alts that you have. I'm pretty sure if you are going to grind all the content for 4 or less it won't feel that bad since we won't be getting new content for at least the next few months. And running the lower level planetary heroics are pretty easy and fast. The problem is that BW/EA gave us so many alts, and for those folks wanting to do all the content for 10+ alts it will seem to be a grind. But then it's also a decision on your part to do it. So basically damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[StarMagus]

Back in my day to get from level 41 to 50 would would sit in a Tree Farm Group for hours and hours. The same group of tree mobs would have 1 group on the server pulling them constantly 24/7. There was a list. When you wanted to level you'd contact one of the people in the tree group and they would put you on the list. When somebody of the class/role you matched left, the next person on the list who could fill that role was called. Once you got into the tree group you stayed as long as possible grinding trees for hours and hours. After every pull we had sit to regain energy. If you were really injured it could be as long as 2-3 minutes of just sitting there meditating, doing nothing, to get your health, mana, and stamina bars to full.

 

Did we *enjoy* doing this... no but it was the fastest way to level and other leveling options were many many times slower.

 

If only we could have that back..... if only.....

[crimsiden]

Such a huge issue.

 

The Comps before the nerfs made actually doing the Alliance stuff not a super chore just barely manageable. With the nerf everyone's slowly realizing how much of a grind the Alliance stuff really is and are rightfully angry as it isn't pretty insane.

Speak for your damn self, 4.02 was probally the most fun I have had on this game... But now its back to watching netflix while my companion kills everything, **** this game I am going to blade and soul

[Velkir]

I had always considered your what you are calling a 'companion grind' a progression consequential to normal game play. I could care less if I ever get Rank 50, because to be honest, having a stronger companion really doesn't please me. The stronger my companion becomes, the easier the game gets until it reaches a state where it feels like 'Spectator Mode'. I don't need or want a companion buff, they are fine in 4.02.

 

The 'Alliance Grind' is again natural progression consequential to gameplay. Heroic missions are more accessible to me now since there are handy terminals and warp buttons to get to them, they are fast and easy and generate credits for me stack and buy shinys, which is the only reason I continue to play. The crates have money in them, and companion rank tokens (gifts), so if handing them in is going to increase my alliance rank, that is a bonus, not something I have to 'grind'.

 

 

What you are calling a grind, I am calling playing a game I enjoy. I doubt I am the only person who thinks this.

 

I think the big issue for some people is yeah not everyone wants all of there compagnions rank 50 but I think some people are fearing this is some kind typical bioware thing of influence is tied to npc reactions.in the story "I" dont think it is. They insisted that approval was a hidden thing now and its related to decisions. Im Hoping its what it is. Influence being only for crafting and presence stats and the hidden Approval like Dragon Age Inquisition is what actually matters for the story. If that not the case however yeah I can see this looking like the freakin Everest.

[Uruare]

Speak for your damn self, 4.02 was probally the most fun I have had on this game... But now its back to watching netflix while my companion kills everything, **** this game I am going to blade and soul

 

If you watch Netflix while playing, you suck and there's pretty much no way Blade and Soul will help that.

 

You'll just be whining about how easy it is when you fail to challenge yourself there too.

 

Here's a challenge for you - the next time you die by any means, delete your character.

 

Enjoy your new difficulty level. If you need Bioware to hold your hand and force you to play at a higher level though, I'll understand.

 

Some people are just scrubs that take no responsibility for helping themselves have their idea of fun.

[Jazulfi]

Yeah yeah blabber all you want about the old timers but older i mean much older mmos had a ton of features that would make "new" mmos hide in shame....yes Swtor im looking at you and you're pathetic atempt of a crafting system...look back at Swg with the best craftng system ever and all we get here is a clickfest with no depth whatsoever.

 

MMos have evolved and not for the best,new mmo playing comunity is one the worst i have ever seen,all filled with lazy ***** morons who are all about ME ME ME and NOW NOW NOW hence me coming up with a nickname of them,i call them MENOWS.

!

 

First off, I really sympathise with a lot of what you've said. I loved the SWG crafting system to bits, and no mmo has come close in offering something similar.

 

However, I think there are a couple of things to bear in mind. The landscape of the gaming industry has changed so dramatically in the last 10 years. More people are playing games...in fact MOST people are playing games of some sort...and that's surely all to the good. When gaming was a niche thing, and you had to earn your stripes (no save points, no hand-holding etc) the people playing were a fairly niche group too, willing and wanting those challenges, to beat the game and to get their real sense of achievement through it.

 

But it's not like that now, the ability, dedication, age, preferences etc etc of the player is so much broader, and mmos took advantage of that.

 

I agree that mmos are sadly a streamlined version of what they once were. I miss the idea that every play-style had a way of 'showing-off'. So, in the first few years of WoW, for example, if I was standing next to Iroxxorurmum, outside the AH, in their Tier Whatevs armour, I could produce an amusing rare pet or mount, equally as challenging to get but just in a different way. It showed I was as dedicated a player as they were. Not that I cared that much but it tickled me, if you see what I mean.

 

But the average player isn't dedicated like that, because most people don't have the time, aren't as fussed (insert 100 other reasons here) but they make up the bread and butter of an mmos income.

 

As far as difficulty/skill level is concerned, I think there *are* ways you can still get a challenge in mmos, but maybe these days you have to make them for yourself. It's a bit like Skyrim (I know it's not an mmo...) - I play with loads of mods that make the world a much more dangerous place for me, I also have mods that make me hungry, thirsty and tired, I also don't allow myself quick travel. I'm lucky because I get to impose those things on myself (with the help of AWEMAZING modders ofc) but I don't care if other people don't want to play it that way.

 

Surely the mmo players who want a similar challenge can do that too? I dunno - start a guild where companions in combat are banned or something* (sorry I'm just thinking off-the-top of my head - I don't mean to be trite.)

 

Anyway, I do agree that mmos lack the depth and charm they used to, but I'm glad that the bigger market (and their telling metrics) mean that content is being opened out to more people. Maybe with this change, developers will look back at making them more interesting again too?

 

*maybe if enough players do this, they'll get a dedicated server with pre-4.0 companion conditions - or something...AoC did something like it.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Jazulfi

[mrfurly]

MMO's need to be somewhat grindy to be sustainable. While there are a plethora of reasons for the decline in subs in this game, one reason is how quickly the content gets consumed. I would say its pretty common in this game to see people sub for one month to play the new content then bail, since it is often so easily and quickly completed.

 

You need some type of grind, be it achievements, reputation, gear, levels, etc... to keep players subscribed so you have continual cash flow. The amount of development that goes into these games is insane. No other game out their requires the amount of code that an MMO does, yet it's content can be consumed in under a month. In the case of KOTFE many people finished the entire thing in under a week, barring maxing affection. I imagine it took a team of people at least 6 months from start to finish to complete KOTFE. If you have never used OOP or any high level language please don't comment on the time frame or difficulty of programming this stuff. The salary expenditures alone during that time probably totaled to several hundred thousand dollars to see the content quickly used up.

 

So for this game to be sustainable there needs to be a 'grind' of some form to keep people subbed.

[Jazulfi]

I forgot to say, I find the frequent comment that 'mmos just *are* grindy' really depressing. Yes, many mmos ARE grindy but that doesn't make it a good thing and it doesn't mean developers can't think of innovative alternatives to it. Surely?

 

Giving players more/different things to do at end game can't be that hard. And a way of getting people back into old content - solo or otherwise, is to offer them interesting rewards. Rare pets/mounts/cosmetic armour are all big winners on that score - LOADS of people in WoW go back into old content to get the things they want.

 

I dunno, I just think it's giving game developers an out. And my suggestion probably doesn't fit in with getting people to buy 'cool stuffs' for real money from The Shop.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Jazulfi

[TUXs]

If you watch Netflix while playing, you suck and there's pretty much no way Blade and Soul will help that.

 

You'll just be whining about how easy it is when you fail to challenge yourself there too.

 

Here's a challenge for you - the next time you die by any means, delete your character.

 

Enjoy your new difficulty level. If you need Bioware to hold your hand and force you to play at a higher level though, I'll understand.

 

Some people are just scrubs that take no responsibility for helping themselves have their idea of fun.

So freaking true! They need everything spoon fed to them...it's funny how whinny and lazy some people can be.

[mrfurly]

I forgot to say, I find the frequent comment that 'mmos just *are* grindy' really depressing. Yes, many mmos ARE grindy but that doesn't make it a good thing and it doesn't mean developers can't think of innovative alternatives to it. Surely?

 

Giving players more/different things to do at end game can't be that hard. And a way of getting people back into old content - solo or otherwise, is to offer them interesting rewards. Rare pets/mounts/cosmetic armour are all big winners on that score - LOADS of people in WoW go back into old content to get the things they want.

 

I dunno, I just think it's giving game developers an out. And my suggestion probably doesn't fit in with getting people to buy 'cool stuffs' for real money from The Shop.

 

 

Read my previous post above yours. Having more and different things at end game is hard. It requires time and money to code. Some thing that is simple in the game could take weeks or months to code. In my experience most gamers have little to no knowledge of high-level languages or the work that is involved in them. Adding one feature could mean rewriting another class(a programming class) or classes so they interact and communicate properly.

 

As we saw with WOW, the achievement system was a good way to keep people busy at end-game since it provided things like rare mounts, titles, and non-combat pets. Prior to the Cartel Market many believe that many of the original CM items were intended for the achievement system, but since achievements now only provide a pittance of CC at best I don't believe they interest many people.

Edited November 24, 2015 by mrfurly

[Jazulfi]

Read my previous post above yours. Having more and different things at end game is hard. It requires time and money to code. Some thing that is simple in the game could take weeks or months to code. In my experience most gamers have little to no knowledge of high-level languages or the work that is involved in them. Adding one feature could mean rewriting another class(a programming class) or classes so they interact and communicate properly.

 

As we saw with WOW, the achievement system was a good way to keep people busy at end-game since it provided things like rare mounts, titles, and non-combat pets. Prior to the Cartel Market many believe that many of the original CM items were intended for the achievement system, but since achievements now only provide a pittance of CC at best I don't believe they interest many people.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I know a move towards a more...er...complicated?...end game system isn't a trivial one! WoW succeeds with it because it offered those things from the start - so the pet/mount/clothing rewards from Old School dungeons and raids are already there. I get that it would take time and effort to put them in place where they didn't exist.

 

However, my feeling (and what do I know...) is that mmos which *do* offer a broader variety of to things do/get/find/whatever at endgame, will have a greater longevity and customer loyalty, because players are less likely to get bored and move on to another game where they're starting their stories (and collecting shi...I mean treasures) all over again. I think that's why WoW has stayed at the top for so long - LOTS to go back to and do.

[Tuskenkiller]

First off, I really sympathise with a lot of what you've said. I loved the SWG crafting system to bits, and no mmo has come close in offering something similar.

 

However, I think there are a couple of things to bear in mind. The landscape of the gaming industry has changed so dramatically in the last 10 years. More people are playing games...in fact MOST people are playing games of some sort...and that's surely all to the good. When gaming was a niche thing, and you had to earn your stripes (no save points, no hand-holding etc) the people playing were a fairly niche group too, willing and wanting those challenges, to beat the game and to get their real sense of achievement through it.

 

But it's not like that now, the ability, dedication, age, preferences etc etc of the player is so much broader, and mmos took advantage of that.

 

I agree that mmos are sadly a streamlined version of what they once were. I miss the idea that every play-style had a way of 'showing-off'. So, in the first few years of WoW, for example, if I was standing next to Iroxxorurmum, outside the AH, in their Tier Whatevs armour, I could produce an amusing rare pet or mount, equally as challenging to get but just in a different way. It showed I was as dedicated a player as they were. Not that I cared that much but it tickled me, if you see what I mean.

 

But the average player isn't dedicated like that, because most people don't have the time, aren't as fussed (insert 100 other reasons here) but they make up the bread and butter of an mmos income.

 

As far as difficulty/skill level is concerned, I think there *are* ways you can still get a challenge in mmos, but maybe these days you have to make them for yourself. It's a bit like Skyrim (I know it's not an mmo...) - I play with loads of mods that make the world a much more dangerous place for me, I also have mods that make me hungry, thirsty and tired, I also don't allow myself quick travel. I'm lucky because I get to impose those things on myself (with the help of AWEMAZING modders ofc) but I don't care if other people don't want to play it that way.

 

Surely the mmo players who want a similar challenge can do that too? I dunno - start a guild where companions in combat are banned or something (sorry I'm just thinking off-the-top of my head - I don't mean to be trite.)

 

Anyway, I do agree that mmos lack the depth and charm they used to, but I'm glad that the bigger market (and their telling metrics) mean that content is being opened out to more people. Maybe with this change, developers will look back at making them more interesting again too?

 

Well thought and written post.

 

Now one thing we are not discussing is the huge difference between sandbox mmos and theme park mmos,i tend to compare this difference using Legos....now now hear me out because i think this will get my point across.

 

Now its almost impossible to find legos that are just that,the blocks,the rest depends on you,you must build whatever you want,you have no designs,no instructions....nothing,now this was when i was a kid (born in 75).

These days all you get is your IP based Legos like Star Wars and you just make a ship or any type of vehicule.

There is no way to "spark" your imagination and do whatever you want,just a static set of pieces and wam bab thank you maam you're all set.Have your ship or vehicule but really just followed some instructions and never deviated of the marked path.

 

This can all be applied to theme park mmos,there is no choice (apart from class and role) so you're basically Dorethy following the yellow brick road.

 

Swg wasnt perfect but it gave you the choice to level whichever way you wanted,you could just be a dedicated crafter and open a shop,you could rp as a smuggler and slice armour and weapons and the list goes on and on,this is what i miss.

 

Just recently came back after a long break...well mostly because the new Star Wars movie is coming out and i just wanted to get back into the "feeling" of playing in a Star Wars based game and yes im having fun for now but i still have that thought in the back of brain that im just following a "tour" and basically there isnt anything for me to do about it,walk the same road as everyone else,same progression scheme that has plagued mmos these past years.

 

Level up,reach cap,run normal dungeons/flahspoints then heroic dungeons/flashpoints and then if you into it you raid....thats it there is no bucket of gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

Beh who knows *shrug* maybe all this wall of text is the ramblings of an old burn out fart who just doesnt enjoy playing mmos anymore.

 

Well anyway thanks for reading.

 

P.S:English isnt my native language so sorry for any misspeling,punctuation or grammar mistakes.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Tuskenkiller

[mrfurly]

Oh don't get me wrong, I know a move towards a more...er...complicated?...end game system isn't a trivial one! WoW succeeds with it because it offered those things from the start - so the pet/mount/clothing rewards from Old School dungeons and raids are already there. I get that it would take time and effort to put them in place where they didn't exist.

 

However, my feeling (and what do I know...) is that mmos which *do* offer a broader variety of to things do/get/find/whatever at endgame, will have a greater longevity and customer loyalty, because players are less likely to get bored and move on to another game where they're starting their stories (and collecting shi...I mean treasures) all over again. I think that's why WoW has stayed at the top for so long - LOTS to go back to and do.

 

 

I agree with you entirely when you say the games that have more to do have more longevity. The issue becomes having the funds to code, create, and debug these features. This game was headed in that direction at launch, i.e. the achievement system offering in-game rewards. The problem is that since then this game has kind of been on life-support with the cartel market keeping it alive. When this game launched it sold 1.6million copies and had about 1.1 million subs. I believe in 6 months they lost over half those subs for various reasons. After that they continued to lose more. It wasn't long after that F2P and the cartel market were introduced and I believe much of the development team was slashed or moved to other projects. Realize that this was a game that cost upwards of $300 million to produce and it kind of fell flat on it's face. When you are left with a limited budget, limited team, and a board of directors who don't have the a lot of faith to pump more money into your project it's difficult to convince people of thinking long-term and devoting time and resources to creating the above described end-game content.

[Jazulfi]

Well thought and written post.

 

Now one thing we are not discussing is the huge difference between sandbox mmos and theme park mmos,i tend to compare this difference using Legos....now now hear me out because i think this will get my point across. ...

 

....P.S:English isnt my native language so sorry for any misspeling,punctuation or grammar mistakes.

 

(just condensed the quote down so it wasn't a massive page-hogging post! Hope you don't mind. )

 

I absolutely understand your Lego analogy, although I would say that while I loved much of the sandbox stuff in SWG - I did end up feeling a bit lost once I ran out of quests. Quest lines give you some purpose - and some story! - to follow and I think unless you have a server packed with A grade RPers, you kind of need it. Mind you, the GM stuff you could order up was brill!

 

MMOs can only offer so much new content at a time, I understand that, but I did used to feel there was something for everyone. Now, I suspect the company number-crunchers won't tolerate excess fat with their game development, and as a result, mmos are a blander species. Which is a shame. I utterly understand why many so-called 'hardcore' players are cheesed off - they've had much of their favoured content stripped from their games.

 

As an aside, what does 'hardcore' mean anyway? I play games till my eyes are raisins and I've fallen asleep drooling on my keyboard, but I don't really like raiding/grouping etc. I really don't think I'm a 'casual' player either!

 

Incidentally, you have no business calling yourself 'an old fart' - I'm considerably older than you, and I also think your English is excellent, but that's enough with the complimentary comments. This is a gamez forum and we aren't supposed to be this civilised.

 

So...er...you smell. Probably.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Jazulfi

[Fallensouls]

Whats funny is my companions could kill most mobs while I took a break before 4.0 with the top gear, so they ( meaning the crybaby whiners) act like some thing is changing to be any different than before 4.0 was out?

 

Actually the nerf had companions to less than what we had with top gear in 3.0 so they really need to shut up.

Because its no different than 3.0 was with the top level gears on companions , so stop all this MEATBAG Bickering over companions because they were EXACTLY the same in 3.0 just with gear, you dummies.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Fallensouls

[Jazulfi]

I agree with you entirely when you say the games that have more to do have more longevity. ... When you are left with a limited budget, limited team, and a board of directors who don't have the a lot of faith to pump more money into your project it's difficult to convince people of thinking long-term and devoting time and resources to creating the above described end-game content.

 

Yeah, I know SWTOR took a bad kick in the teeth at launch, and understand/agree with your post. It's a shame though - speculate to accumlate? Is that the phrase? Offer players a broad, deep world, where everyone gets to live, engage and play, and you're on to a winner.

 

Oh dear, I've gone off-topic again. You smell too.

 

P.S. Can't help but think mmo devs should go and read 'Strata' and think about the quote from ' the book within the book'

Edited November 24, 2015 by Jazulfi