Companion Balance Changes

[Khiriath]

I am talking Meta as I explained in a later post. This game has always had "story" stuff that is tangential to the main story in instanced content. You can do it and it adds flavor but it has no actual impact on the "big" story. Yes you might have access to a 10th or 11th of 20th companion but that really, with all the companions we have now, is no less fluff than other things that came from FPs and OPs that had story and that s how you have to look at the Heroic SF because that is how the devs look at it in the scheme of things. The fact you destroy the Star Fortress in one and just recon it in the other is NOT advancing the main story, it is only tangential

Please provide a quote from the Devs where they say that the Star Fortress Storyline is fluff, and only tangential to the main story, especially as that is primarily all there is to do in chapter 9, Without said quote you are simply dressing up your assumptions as their intentions.

 

Now if you have a problem with them having solo content that is aa knowledge, play ability, gear and faction content I can understand that BUT you have to understand there are really only 3 new things this expac. The main story and the two different SFs. Believe it or not the Devs value the FP and OPs runners, who appreciate something a little more challenging, just as much as the solo players so they coded something for them too.

 

You have to understand that they said that group content wasn't going to be included, at leas in the initial release, of this expac, and that it was going to take a back seat in general to single player story. Having had my 2 main progression guilds quit enmasse, and fold from said announcements I totally get just how little they were worried about raiders.

I see nothing to indicate that this is the exception to that. Again you are dressing up your assumptions as developer intentions.

Oh and as a serious progression raider in this game, you calling those either fun or challenging is quite the laugh. Soloed it right after 4.0.2 was launched without buffs ect, to see if the <one for all> acheive was still within my abilities. Out healed my comp 3:1(I play an AP PT btw), and put it down without too much of a hiccup. Hardly the challenging or riveting content tbh. Just long and tedious.

No serious progression raider is going to do them for anything but LOLs, and to get the achieve. Its not content that will keep them coming back, especially as there is no gear progression there. At last when(lamely IMO) they tried to keep our interest with the Monoliths there was actually a 204MH at the end of it.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Khiriath

[Excise]

I enjoy the solo/story game, but primarily I consider myself a raider. Do I have any problem with companions being super powered or the story stuff being easy? Nope, not at all. Raiding provides the challenge and story mode the lore.

 

Indifference: the greatest feedback of them all!

[Ghisallo]

My argument was clearly against those folks that claim that the game was the easiest it has ever been in 4.0, which is a fallacy of course.

 

I support the argument that hardcore players had challenge stolen from them in elder content, and they also were forced into easy content in the vanilla game, content they could ignore in the past...which was my point.

 

I suppose my question Ghisallo would be how any of that approaches a strawman. I am not arguing for 4.0, nor am I picking out a bad egg to argue against 4.0.2.

 

So I suppose I would need to know your criteria for a formal fallacy. It is possible I am not seeing it.

 

My point was I think you are being overly broad them, vs straw man, so maybe our issue here is that we were looking at the arguments from different perspectives? If so I apologize for the accusation.

 

I am one of those who said it was easier than it had ever been BUT I was only referring to the content that is considered "contemporary" for my max level character at any given time.

 

As such, as an example, going and killing the world boss on Coruscant when I was level 55-60 and at 60 I would not even be looking at Oricon as "contemporary" content. My calculus is narrowed to the content that is relevant to my level, not content that I have clearly over leveled.

[Ghisallo]

Please provide a quote from the Devs where they say that the Star Fortress Storyline is fluff, and only tangential to the main story, especially as that is primarily all there is to do in chapter 9, Without said quote you are simply dressing up your assumptions as their intentions.

 

Please tell me what proof there is IN THE GAME at this time that your character destroying the star fortress drives the main story we are participating in. Logic dictates, especially in light of the history of this game, that you do not assume that you destroying the solo star fortress has anything to do with driving the main story and is not simply tangential as was EVERY other instanced story in the game. It is actually your burden to prove me wrong,using the basic rules of logic and argument.

 

I could however point to the fact that in the OP that piece of content is seen as aspirational by the devs (their word not mine). When was the last time you saw aspirational content drive the main story?

 

 

You have to understand that they said that group content wasn't going to be included, at leas in the initial release, of this expac, and that it was going to take a back seat in general to single player story. Having had my 2 main progression guilds quit enmasse, and fold from said announcements I totally get just how little they were worried about raiders.

 

I do understand that BUT you also have to understand that they also were thus going to put SOMETHING in here for the challenge driven player to have fund with to minimize the damage. it also serves a purpose, due to the earth of original playable content to occupy people between chapter, to set a goal for players.... "hey you have a month at least until the next chapter, play the game, get the gear and faction... THEN YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!" Classic carrot on a stick MMO design.

 

I dress up nothing in the end. I look at what Eric and Michael said. They have clearly said this Heroic Star fortress is supposed to be a challenging, even aspirational SOLO instance. For it to have any real meaning to story is for you to prove and only if you can prove this does your argument hold weight.

 

That said I know what the real underlying bit is. There is a long held tradition that solo, group and raid content are exclusively for those groups. The minute a piece of content designed for one person does not fit the traditional definition of solo content issues ensue.

 

Please note i am NOT actually defending their position. From the minute I realized, BEFORE 4.0.2, that the H2 SF was not designed to be immediately dove into solo I said "omg if they nerf companions people are going to FREAK because this is something without OP companions you have to grind to do and most solo exclusive players I know don't like grind."

 

I think from day one the plan of this expac was a huge gamble and I have MAJOR concerns regarding how successful it will be in the long term. So this is not some guy saying "stay away from my challenging stuff you noob!!!" I am just calling them as I see them and not saying good or bad. Kinda Mr. Spock mode atm if that makes sense.

[lorefultv]

Thank you.

[ShepardSpock]

With the servers back up, how is it now?

[Knite_Gilnorn]

I Just hope they aren't to strong. I liked the nerf they had. At 4.0 I took a Sith Marauder from start to the end or Narshada without having any gear because of how strong the companions were. I hope they aren't anywhere near that strong.

 

Also open world PvP was impossible with how strong they were.

[Captjohnsavage]

Personally I think the best solution would be to make the star fortress H2's non solo ones into GF que that way i don't have to sit outside the entrance shouting in chat Exp: LFG for Hoth star fortress rather just be able to que it up and do other stuff while i wait for it to pop instead of trying to solo it or hangout in front of entrance doing chat shouts. make the SF into a tactical, FP or hard mode GF.

[Knite_Gilnorn]

Please tell me what proof there is IN THE GAME at this time that your character destroying the star fortress drives the main story we are participating in. Logic dictates, especially in light of the history of this game, that you do not assume that you destroying the solo star fortress has anything to do with driving the main story and is not simply tangential as was EVERY other instanced story in the game. It is actually your burden to prove me wrong,using the basic rules of logic and argument.

 

It's the main part of chapter nine, which is chapter nine of the KOTFE story. Might as well say you getting your ship back wasn't a part of the story.

[Lundli]

With the servers back up, how is it now?

 

I did some heroics before the servers went down then did the same heroics when they came back up.. and I have to say there's a big difference. Not too much but about right I'd say.

[Ghisallo]

It's the main part of chapter nine, which is chapter nine of the KOTFE story. Might as well say you getting your ship back wasn't a part of the story.

 

Know it's not. The main part of Chapter 9 is simply setting up your alliance... that is it. Don't read into it.

 

Right now there is no evidence that this is any difference that Solo Revan in SoR where you just kill Revan and Revan in the Op where you kill him, HK and destroy the resurrection machine. If and when there is evidence to the contrary I will be the first to issue a mae culpa.

 

However right now there is nothing to say that later in the story chapters they simply say the Star Fortresses are "destroyed" by unspecified means so that yes, we could have been the ones to do it, but our alliance together could equally be the culprit. Hell the later chapters say make no reference to it at all. Right now people are assuming that it is BW's script because they want to be the hero blowing it up and that is wha it comes down to lets be honest... people want to be "that guy." Cool, but BW has also made it quite clear what they expect you to do to be "that guy".

 

Like I said I am not even saying its right or wrong but if you want to complain... complain to BW that they made something you want to do something that is going to require grind and some effort. It's their plan, not mine.

[ShepardSpock]

I did some heroics before the servers went down then did the same heroics when they came back up.. and I have to say there's a big difference. Not too much but about right I'd say.

 

So somewhere between 4.0 and 4.2 levels? Great. That's what it should have been in the first place.

[Ghisallo]

I did some heroics before the servers went down then did the same heroics when they came back up.. and I have to say there's a big difference. Not too much but about right I'd say.

 

So far I am detecting a difference in my health in heroic missions (lana's overheals are kinda crazy) but not much difference in ttk of mobs, but I am on Tatooine. The test will be when I do H2 SF again. that will give relevant numbers.

[Aricin]

I was one of the loudest critics only partially about the nerf, but primarly about how the team went about and the lack of communication before and after.

 

So, i will also say, thank you for the detailed post and for engaging with the community. Yes, there are open questions, but this is a move in the right direction.

 

Sub renewed.

[Nepthen]

Thank you, Backus.

 

I liked the 4.0.2 nerf. I also understand I'm probably in the minority here. Oh well.

 

Companions were insanely OP prior to the nerf, especially if they had really high influence. After the nerf, even with an Influence 3 companion and starter insta-60 gear, I was able to complete a One and Only run through Heroic Star Fortress on a Sentinel. Was it more difficult than before? Well yeah but I was purposefully undergeared and using a low influence companion. I would have liked the devs to let the original nerf run another week to allow people to level up their companion of choice with high influence, maybe get some better gear on their character too and then try it out; you know, put some time in to try and overcome the challenge. You could run the Heroic Star Fortress with a friend, too.

 

Now the companions have been buffed back a little bit. Hopefully this is enough to appease those who couldn't handle the content after the nerf but not so much of a boost to the point where you can just hit control-1 and walk away (as was the case prior to 4.0.2).

 

The planet heroics were a joke before and after the nerf. They will still be a joke after this recent boost too.

[PallyHk]

I really want to say "thank you Bioware, Now I can play the game again!" but I feel like they should have just swinged the nerf bat less hard in the first place.

 

Now I can solo Heroic 2+ weeklies with an Influence 10 healer without having to burn all my 3min cooldowns on every fight and wait for them to recharge between fights. Some difficult fights require defensive cooldowns or heroic moment, but not all of them force you to use it all the time, than wait between the fights for ages.

 

That is all I ask, to be able to play the solo part of the game solo. Which I never had a trouble with prior the companion nerf, so this is not me being unable to play my class.

 

I do not want or care about being able to solo the Heroic Star Fortresses or Tactical flashpoints alone.

I just want to be able to get through the grindy content without it being ardously annoying.

 

This is certainly a step in the good direction.

 

I would recommend buffing companions to 66% of what they were in 4.0 , OR I would just make sure 1 to 10 influence level companions can heal through the weeklies and solo content easily enough.

 

Still, this is a step in the good direction and I hope BW developer team has learned from their mistake.

Edited November 24, 2015 by PallyHk

[LordArtemis]

My point was I think you are being overly broad them, vs straw man, so maybe our issue here is that we were looking at the arguments from different perspectives? If so I apologize for the accusation.

 

I am one of those who said it was easier than it had ever been BUT I was only referring to the content that is considered "contemporary" for my max level character at any given time.

 

As such, as an example, going and killing the world boss on Coruscant when I was level 55-60 and at 60 I would not even be looking at Oricon as "contemporary" content. My calculus is narrowed to the content that is relevant to my level, not content that I have clearly over leveled.

 

As a simple reply, if you mean easier in the context as to content at the proper level, absolutely...and I think that was unfair to folks that wanted a challenge.

 

At least under the old system folks could be challenged going through content at the proper level. After 4.0, more often than not that was not the case.

[Death-Hammer]

I just wanted to say I think you found a good middle ground with the companions in patch 4.02a. Also, would like to request a companion AI fix. Maybe healer comps are working as intended and I am wrong in how I am thinking they should preform . But they still spend more time trying to dps than to heal in the healing stance. Thanks again for the tweak to companions I think it is just about right in regards to how much they heal. Lastly, I wish to join the choir here in asking for the Makeb heroic quest False history to be tweaked. 4 panels is to much to click on if you are trying to do this solo.

[Ghisallo]

As a simple reply, if you mean easier in the context as to content at the proper level, absolutely...and I think that was unfair to folks that wanted a challenge.

 

At least under the old system folks could be challenged going through content at the proper level. After 4.0, more often than not that was not the case.

 

That is precisely what I was addressing and I apologize for misreading your prior response.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

I really want to say "thank you Bioware, Now I can play the game again!" but I feel like they should have just swinged the nerf bat less hard in the first place.

 

Now I can solo Heroic 2+ weeklies with an Influence 10 healer without having to burn all my 3min cooldowns on every fight and wait for them to recharge between fights. Some difficult fights require defensive cooldowns or heroic moment, but not all of them force you to use it all the time, than wait between the fights for ages.

 

That is all I ask, to be able to play the solo part of the game solo. Which I never had a trouble with prior the companion nerf, so this is not me being unable to play my class.

 

I do not want or care about being able to solo the Heroic Star Fortresses or Tactical flashpoints alone.

I just want to be able to get through the grindy content without it being ardously annoying.

 

This is certainly a step in the good direction.

 

I would recommend buffing companions to 66% of what they were in 4.0 , OR I would just make sure 1 to 10 influence level companions can heal through the weeklies and solo content easily enough.

 

Still, this is a step in the good direction and I hope BW developer team has learned from their mistake.

 

honestly have to ask... what planet, what gear level, what class? I just did the 5 on tatooine to get the boxes to unlock the SF for that planet. My health before never reached the point I needed to think about hitting a CD after the nerf and today I did not see my health drop my more than 10 percent except for a little experiment where I purposefully pulled to groups of 3 silvers and a gold just to see what would happen.

[Nepthen]

I too would like to know what planet heroics are difficult. I just blow through all of them (I avoid Makeb because they take forever). For the instanced heroics, I usually gather up about 3-5 groups then AoE them all to hell. This is with various influence levels and gear on various characters.

 

Also, running the Heroics on Tython, Ord Mantell, and Coruscant (I'm assuming Sith side earlier planets are equivalent) and using those credits to buy the cheap level 1 gifts is an easy way to get your companions some influence, not to mention the gifts you receive from the packs after you turn in the items to the Alliance contacts.

[Miyel]

Well we've gone from barely tolerable grind (4.0) to absolute tedium (4.02) to just tedium (4.02a)

 

suffice to say, if you wanted to deter me from doing the ridiculous amount of heroics I used to have to do, you've done it. I earn enough green crystals from ops so i'll just get supplies that way now.

 

challenge gets boring when you have to do 50 HC's a week, its become a "just get through it" thing, id prefer to not get carpel tunnel while I'm at it. (not that they're are that hard, its just more tedious to do now)

 

BTW, I've destroyed all the SF's already once and have one and only, what reason do i have to rehash them? the rewards are pittance for the time spent on it ... just asking, time:reward ratio being rubbish and all.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Miyel

[Tearsscream]

Thank you for admitting to a misstep Bioware. That means a lot even if I don't like the changes you are making. I understand you have to have a hard job since you will never make everyone happy. I haven't tried out the changes pre-nerf, but I have the feeling it will be a lot more reasonable now if the numbers are accurate.

[crowncrow]

Perhaps the first nerf was too severe. @ BW Next time try with a smaller nerf to start with and ramp it up gradually to hit that "sweet spot."

Heaving said that the idea of bringing some more challenge to the game is a good one. Personally I really enjoyed the challenge after 4.02 . Being forced to use more skill, CC, and heroic moments with my 65 lvl char plus 30 lvl companion was a welcome change. Doing some heroics was much more difficult or even impossible with my 40 lvl char. I have died several times before I learned how to do it right. Playing was fun again and it required concentration instead of just mindless grinding. Then again I guess since weekly heroics is a mindless grind no matter how you look at it, perhaps some people prepare to do it easier = faster.

 

I worry that as a result of the over nerf now you over buffed, again making it too easy...

[Gluo]

thank you for fixing the last patch...now will be able to play with out every fight like i'm fighting a champ boss...witch so boss fight were easier than some just mob fights...