Companion Balance Changes

[dvmcm]

ZOMG. Someone mentioned...RIFT? I loved that game and still play WoW (pvp only) and Aion on occasion. Been a SWTOR sub since day 1.

 

Thought I had more to say. Alas, I do not.

[Ferretfur]

Hello, everyone.

 

My name is Michael Backus, and I’m the Lead Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic. I wanted to take a minute to apologize for the recent Companion changes and address combat balance. I wanted to do so personally because as fans of Star Wars: The Old Republic and our customers, we cherish your feedback and value all of you, and I feel you deserve to hear this information directly.

 

We want players to enjoy [Heroic 2]s and level up their Alliance. You can find the exact changes coming in tomorrow’s patch, below. And I assure you, we will continue to carefully watch how content is being enjoyed and adapt as necessary.

• Companion healing has been increased by roughly 48%. (Influence level and character level will determine exact amount.)
  
• Companion damage has been increased by roughly 15%. (Influence level and character level will determine exact amount.)
  
• Companion base stats have been increased by about 15%. (Influence level and character level will determine exact amount.)

(click the spoiler tag for specifics)

 

 

• Companion channel heal power increased by 61%
  
• Companion single target heal power increased by 42%
  
• Companion single target heal over time power increased by 43%
  
• Companion base stats increased by 15%
  
• edit, removed note about damage increase, it is redundant with stat increase above

 

Star Fortresses

 

As a result, we are going to change the “Heroic” nomenclature for Star Fortresses to something different. We’ll let you know what we decide the new name will be soon. In addition, this will allow us to balance Star Fortresses independently of Companion power, but still make it challenging without making it impossible for many players.

 

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for the feedback and taking the time to explain things. This is great news and really should help the state of play.

 

As some people have said, calling the SF a "Tactical 2+" instead of Heroic would probably help clear up that it is more than a H2+.

 

Looking forward to the new patch, though it is a shame the Tank Armour and Defence problem isn't being fixed as part of it (unless I missed that in the notes).

[Tristhesse]

Dear Sir,

since we have such a possibility, I'd like to ask about a thing that bothers me for a long time now.

.

The over-powering of imperial classes.

.

Why I decided to ask?

• It's true that I'm playing mailny republic characters, yet I do have and do play 2 characters on the imperial side. Thus the possibility to compare (and potentially benefit from OP)
  
• I talked about the issue with a lot of players (from both sides) and 85% of them agrees with my observation
  
• I am aware that my fighting and strategic skills are still intermediate, thus I understand and accept large amount of lost fights (eg in PVP). Yet when it takes 4-5 skilled rep characters to kill 1 imp character, but only 2-3 imp characters to easily kill 8 reps, I begin to doubt in the general rules of the game.
  

.

I admitt I am getting angry - not because of my poor skills, but because of sth I consider to be unjust.

If you would be kind to explain, I'd really appreciate.

 

Thank you,

Tristhesse

Poland

 

p.s. concerning the changes in companions' stats, I understand them. They may be difficult or require adjusting, yet I fully understand and accept the change.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Tristhesse
forgot of sth

[Jedi_riches]

OK First of all thanks for the rather thoughtful and insightful post, its nice to see that Bioware still listens (if occasionally) to is player base (yes there were many, many threats to cancel subs but still...).

 

I will wait and see how well these changes work, but it seems to be in line with what many people accepted would be a acceptable nerf prior to 4.0.2.

 

The only thing I am puzzled with is you say you mis-understood the player base and the role of heroics, with the KoTFE alliances, you basically turned Heroics into a needed weekly mission, did you really expect that people would be grouping to achieve 320 heroics (I think I saw that was the total needed), rather than try to solo it and get it done as easy as possible (no waiting for a partner etc). Was this a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing?

[Ghisallo]

Solo version you just are scouting out to see what the fortress is like and (temporarily) shutting EPHEMERIS up . Heroic version you're destroying it. Preeeeety sure that indicates story progression there.

 

It is a progression BUT until we see the next chapters there is no telling whether or not how the SF is destroyed is relevant to the over all story. You need to stop while they called it an H2 they have made it clear in this announcement that it should never have been seen as a kin of the Heroic Missions.

 

While it is designed for but one player, based on their description, you have to look at it NOT like "simple" solo progression BUT instead like a solo FP or OP. These have always had a story that is related to the story of the solo world BUT they are an addendum to that story, not integral to it. That companion from Alderaan may be neat but that Jedi is not integral to the story, just as Esseles was a cool way to get from your starting world to Coruscant or Dromund Kaas, but was not necessary for your overall story.

 

Now you may not like this. You may say "its solo damnit and I am a solo player, not some min/maxer"... But BW clearly wants something in this expac that has more of a challenge. It makes sense too. They gave no new FPs or OPs for the players that want a bit more of a challenge and doing it this way allows them to simply use, for the most part, the same resources to give them something.

 

It is also a piece of content that does not lock out the person who does not group. Imo most people can solo IF they just get geared up, companion affection, use them in the right mode AND get that alliance faction up. I am telling you just the " buff" yeah it was a challenge after the nerf but doable. I did not have faction 10 in anything until this weekend. If you have the actions at 10 though, those 4 abilities made the fights more than doable solo. That autocannon you get from the Admiral is powerful enough that it was ripping the mob off me rather regularly on the last boss fight. Iwas running Vigilance but I actually had to taunt the boss off the cannon to keep it alive. The heal? It healed me to full from 50% etc.

 

So basically it is a story but not integral to the Expacs story. It may prove more challenging for some but get that alliance up and that challenge is seriously mitigated and also gives the players who want a bit of challenge something to do. You didn't actually think BW was saying "bye bye MMO players who want a challenge our game is not for you anymore" did ya?

[Ghisallo]

Ok, I guess it is necessary to point this out again.

 

Proof was posted in this very forum and on reddit that there were plenty of situations where you COULD NOT simply order your comp to attack a mob and walk away.

 

People act as if death was impossible....it absolutely was not. It is an exaggeration at best, and unfortunately too many of those claims were debunked when folks picked them apart.

 

I remember 9 postings and 3 sets of numbers that were debunked as falsified in the pro nerf crowd. I also remember one that was debunked from the anti nerf crowd......one.

 

And it is not as if Bioware was likely not privy to this information...they had quite a few sources, unless of course you feel openly false information about the very game they develop can fool them.

 

I tend to think that perhaps the multitude of fake information posts that pro-nerf folks posted did not help Bioware support that point of view.

 

Now, yes, the vast amount of information was likely accurate on both sides, and we shouldnt let a few bad eggs ruin the base opinion on either sides of the issue, but there is a problem with that as well....how can anti-nerf folks post obviously accurate information and videos and folks CONTINUE to claim you could play the game on copilot in all situations.

 

Here is the likely truth of the issue.

Depending on level, presence, influence, mob strength, situation, area, skill level, gear and bugs/lag, it was possible in some situations, quite often in fact, where you could consider companion performance OP. Though it was far less common to have the ability to "set the companion to attack and go and make tea", it was possible in some situations.

 

EVEN IF this did not occur all the time, it was still likely unacceptable under any circumstances. The game should NEVER be that easy when in combat under the current system.

Of course, prior to 4.0 it was EXACTLY that easy when you outleveled the content, so this is not something new.

 

I sincerely hope that folks stop exaggerating this point, but that is unlikely.

 

Yes Artemis and no one is saying you could do it on every fight. Could I do it on the mission on Makeb with the poison gas? Nope. If I had to trigger something did I have to trigger first? Yes... But once triggered could I do it on every weekly Taris, Balmorra and Both mission I did? Yes and obviously the devs agree because...

 

it is not ideal to send your Companion into combat in a [Heroic 2] and then go make tea, only to come back and collect your loot.

 

Not my description there, its the lead developers. As you said it is highly unlikely false information would confuse them. He said the above. So using your logic it is not false information. Plemty of occasions seems to be playing the apologist a tad. It's essentially saying "hey look at these X occasions where you can't.... Don't mind the X+Y occasions over there where you can, nothing to see there." This is why he also said they would be addressing some of the missions I suspect because those "plenty" of incidents on the Reddits were, primarily, the missions even I had to admit felt way more difficult than they were supposed to be when compared to the rest.

 

It doesn't matter if I could not do it on select missions, the fact is it should not be viable of any mission that is supposed to be the current content for this tier. The companion is only supposed to supplement us and it appears the devs agree with me on that at least, if that quote is anything to speak of.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[cambul]

Hello, everyone.

 

My name is Michael Backus, and I’m the Lead Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic. I wanted to take a minute to apologize for the recent Companion changes and address combat balance. I wanted to do so personally because as fans of Star Wars: The Old Republic and our customers, we cherish your feedback and value all of you, and I feel you deserve to hear this information directly

 

.......snip........

 

Thank you for reading and we look forward to more of your feedback as these changes go live.

 

May the Force be with you,

Michael Backus

Lead Designer

 

very pleasant to read, completely rational reasoning and, i believe, a very sincere apology. the explanation regarding the level bar for this content was very welcome, and should cool come 'debates' on such things. the new values being applied to companions will make a very tangible difference, providing a very positive change for many many players.

 

regards

[Galentor]

First that is only one person. There was a definite expression, by a minority, that a game all about the story should have NO concern about how people actually play the game... Otherwise it is not "All" about the story.

 

Sadly this was not an isolated case,

 

In a similar thread i pointed out that HC missions should require basic class mechanics understanding and the use of some abilities like interrupts and cc. The response was that having to do this makes the game boring and tedius. When i pointed out that single player / solo rpg's do require player input and some effort as well i got the counter argument that cheats and trainers can be applied to said games.

 

It is apparent that we are dealing with a specific mindset and approach towards gaming here. One which favors insta-gratification and entitlement to everything with 0 effort. Players with said mindset got their playground for 27 days and when Bioeware abruptly took this away they started screaming bloody murder.

[Ghisallo]

One more point I will make.

 

Folks didnt seem to care much when you could solo world bosses, or absolutely slaughter elite and champion mobs in heroic areas before 4.0...at least the complaints were few and far inbetween.

 

Then 4.0 hits, and all of a sudden you have folks saying the game is easier than it is has ever been in the past, despite the fact that quite a few of us have been playing this game and wiping out mobs with ease for almost 4 years.

 

You outleveled the content, you were a god. The only way you would die is if you fell off a cliff.

 

So, no....the game was not easier in 4.0, it was harder than prior to 4.0...but not by much. Very little in fact. And since folks had to do heroics to grind for alliance, well, hardcore folks were FORCED into playing in easy mode.

 

Before they could simply ignore it.

 

That is, IMO, the entire crux of the problem. That and perhaps the fact it made high level content far too easy, far easier than it was designed for. I will not argue that.

 

But the original content, the heroics....that was all in sleep mode when you outleveled the content. THIS IS A FACT that can not be disputed, period.

 

You miss the point they changed their methodology. Before 4.0 something on Hoth was irrelevant to a level 60 toon. The nature of the game was that a level 60 character should be able to steam roll if, same with Coruscant etc. Now, love it or hate it, they created level sync. So that Hoth or Coruscant encounter is now, for all effective purposes, supposed to be level 65 content due to level sync.

 

Is it a gimick? Was it lazy? Is it right, wrong? Not saying anything on that matter but the fact remains this expac has only 3 things that are new... The Story quest and the 2 Star Fortresses, everything else was intentionally recycled and made "max level" content via level sync and similar new mechanics.

 

If you don't like level sync cool, I may even agree with that. Argue against that BUT making the argument that "no one had an issue with that old stuff being easy before 4.0" is arguably a straw man. No one I see is saying "its great Belsavis s a challenge again!" They are saying "due to level sync this is now max level content again and so it should be as challenging as any other max level content we have played in the past."

 

That is an important distinction.

[alltooeasyactual]

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Ghisallo]

Sadly this was not an isolated case,

 

In a similar thread i pointed out that HC missions should require basic class mechanics understanding and the use of some abilities like interrupts and cc. The response was that having to do this makes the game boring and tedius. When i pointed out that single player / solo rpg's do require player input and some effort as well i got the counter argument that cheats and trainers can be applied to said games.

 

It is apparent that we are dealing with a specific mindset and approach towards gaming here. One which favors insta-gratification and entitlement to everything with 0 effort. Players with said mindset got their playground for 27 days and when Bioeware abruptly took this away they started screaming bloody murder.

 

I agree. I think the problem is this. It starts, imo, with the divide between those that were looking for a single player game like TOR and those who came here for what the game was advertised as an MMORPG. Now that is not to say that the fans of the single player story game all when an easy mode. Plenty of those put those difficulty sliders on medium, hard or even nightmare mode settings. However there is that minority for whom easy wasn't enough either and they used cheats, mods etc to steamroll between cut scenes. Those people did make an appearance during this debate.

[mephistosaurus]

Since BW is apparently attuned to the hue and cry of the player base at the moment, would you like to hear my feedback on the nerf of the infamous slot machine?

 

Ouch, trying to re-repress that memory now...

[AlrikFassbauer]

It is apparent that we are dealing with a specific mindset and approach towards gaming here. One which favors insta-gratification and entitlement to everything with 0 effort. Players with said mindset got their playground for 27 days and when Bioeware abruptly took this away they started screaming bloody murder.

 

Years ago I even went so far in saying that this - or a similar mind set - was introduced with the coming up of the Action-RPG genre. One, which was invented by Blizzard, and which requires absolutely NO knowledge of game mechanics - apart from a few clicks here and there. And that sys someone who has played DII and LOD through, albeit only on the lowest level, ans Sacred 1 as well.

 

The Action-RPG genre has taucht people NOT to care about game mechanics - as the term says, the emphasis in the "action-RPG" genre lies heavily on the "action" part " And you can't have "action" if you are forced to do micromanagement ...

 

What we are seeing here now is the fruis of what was sown by Blizzard 10 years ago : People demanding a kind of gameplay that relies so MUCH on the "action" part, that everything ELSE is regarded merely as a nuisance - and has to get subordinated under that theme of "action", plus adrenaline.

 

And SWTOR basically *is* an Action-RPG ! You solve quests there ENTIRELY with combat ! This is THE base sign of an Action-RPG being there !

 

Social interaction isn't used to solve quests. It doesn't give you rewards. Social interaction is only there for the story, but NOT for solving quests !

 

Another clear sign that SWTOR is an Action-RPG is that each class has ONE main stat - and ALL other side-stats are only contrubuting to it !

Nowadays, it has become even more an Action-RPG : Everything got streamlined towards "faster levelling" - even more combat action ! - and there is only ONE character stat left !

 

Compare that to Drakensang 2, for example ( I'm citing it here because I'm a huge fan of it. ), I mean the offline, single-player game. Or compare that with Divinity : Original Sin. Or compare that with the "Realms Of Arcania" Trilogy ... Or, in MMORPGs, compare that with DDO ...

 

What we are getting is the fruit of what Blizzard has been sowing with their EXTREME streamlining of RPGs.

Edited November 24, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Khiriath]

You are missing the Solo SF and its place in the grand scheme. The Solo SF and the H2 SF both serve the same purpose in the story. So using the story as an argument either accidentally misses this or is intentionally disingenuous.

 

The only difference between the two is difficulty and then the resulting reward for that difficulty.

 

Incorrect.

 

The solo star fortress is the first part of a three part story arc. In the solo mission, you gather information about said star fortress in preparation for destroying it.

 

The H2 on the other hand is where you actually destroy the thing(thus completing the story arc).

 

Further the H2, and destruction of the Star Fortress is how you finish the recruitment of said companion.

 

So not even close to serving the same purpose which is a major reason for the outrage.

[Frenesi]

Well, that's one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen here. Understandable, but still pathetic

[Ghisallo]

Incorrect.

 

The solo star fortress is the first part of a three part story arc. In the solo mission, you gather information about said star fortress in preparation for destroying it.

 

The H2 on the other hand is where you actually destroy the thing(thus completing the story arc).

 

Further the H2, and destruction of the Star Fortress is how you finish the recruitment of said companion.

 

So not even close to serving the same purpose which is a major reason for the outrage.

 

I am talking Meta as I explained in a later post. This game has always had "story" stuff that is tangential to the main story in instanced content. You can do it and it adds flavor but it has no actual impact on the "big" story. Yes you might have access to a 10th or 11th of 20th companion but that really, with all the companions we have now, is no less fluff than other things that came from FPs and OPs that had story and that s how you have to look at the Heroic SF because that is how the devs look at it in the scheme of things. The fact you destroy the Star Fortress in one and just recon it in the other is NOT advancing the main story, it is only tangential

 

Now if you have a problem with them having solo content that is aa knowledge, play ability, gear and faction content I can understand that BUT you have to understand there are really only 3 new things this expac. The main story and the two different SFs. Believe it or not the Devs value the FP and OPs runners, who appreciate something a little more challenging, just as much as the solo players so they coded something for them too.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[TheDancingHare]

Thanks for this. I really enjoyed doing the H2+ quests every day for crates, and the nerf made it still possible, but slow to the point that I didn't really bother.

 

Can't wait to get out and crush some with my buddy again!

[Ghisallo]

Sweet, now please charge a coward/idiot fee all those little spoiled brats who unsubbed immediately because of this and want to come back now ...

 

For some who nsubbed I would hope they did not come back, of because I don't like returning players mind you. The person who just said "this game isn't for me anymore?" No problem. The person who cried "bait and switch" or the one who assumed the devs only caved to the cries of the "elitists?" I would hope they show the courage of their convictions. I have played games where devs had literally lost my trust. They lied, purposefully hid stuff that was important information for you to be an informed consumer. I do not pay people who do this kinda junk.

 

Example: say pay for sub up front for 1 year and get the Collectors edition for free 3 months before expac launch. Only a short time after launch go f2p and then say "oh this transition has been in the planning stages sinceast year. If I would have know the subscription I paid for was useless (and their f2p made it largely useless) I would have turned a 3 month recurring sub into a 1month sub. I think that bordered on a down right deceptive sales practice which is actionable. I played for the duration of that sub because I was not going to waste the money but they didn't get anymore money out of me either.

[mephistosaurus]

Why couldn't you just fluff em back to 4.0 to start, and add a drop down the decrease the stats in increments?

Adding a "challenging mode" like... http://the-artifice.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/doom3.jpg

[SuperGrunt]

Dear Sir,

Thank you,

Tristhesse

 

Edited the quoted post down a bit to hopefully not preserve it for too long.

 

I just have a couple of points for you Tristjesse.

First you should never post that kind of personal information here on the forums, please go back and edit out your personal information for you own protection.

Second if you truly feel that way then the appropriate action would be to post a new thread regarding it and not bring this thread off topic.

Finally what you have actually posted is false information. All of the classes and specs are mirrored on both side and quite well balanced against one another. You might be seeing a disparity due to skill or gear across the faction line, but that is not a balance issue.

[SuperGrunt]

I agree. I think the problem is this. It starts, imo, with the divide between those that were looking for a single player game like TOR and those who came here for what the game was advertised as an MMORPG. Now that is not to say that the fans of the single player story game all when an easy mode. Plenty of those put those difficulty sliders on medium, hard or even nightmare mode settings. However there is that minority for whom easy wasn't enough either and they used cheats, mods etc to steamroll between cut scenes. Those people did make an appearance during this debate.

 

In KotFE we got no new Ops or Flashpoints, they just raised them all to level 65. So in other words, the did not add a single pixel of non-single player content to the game for this expansion, outside of the currently named Heroic 2+ Star Fortresses (kind of a stretch considering they have been soloable for everyone till last week, and continue to be to well geared and skilled players). What makes you think this isn't a MMO Single Player RPG?

[LordArtemis]

If you don't like level sync cool, I may even agree with that. Argue against that BUT making the argument that "no one had an issue with that old stuff being easy before 4.0" is arguably a straw man.

 

My argument was clearly against those folks that claim that the game was the easiest it has ever been in 4.0, which is a fallacy of course.

 

I support the argument that hardcore players had challenge stolen from them in elder content, and they also were forced into easy content in the vanilla game, content they could ignore in the past...which was my point.

 

I suppose my question Ghisallo would be how any of that approaches a strawman. I am not arguing for 4.0, nor am I picking out a bad egg to argue against 4.0.2.

 

So I suppose I would need to know your criteria for a formal fallacy. It is possible I am not seeing it.

[badboyishere]

Sweet, now please charge a coward/idiot fee all those little spoiled brats who unsubbed immediately because of this and want to come back now ...

 

Now please think about just what you wrote, and then realize that *this* is why this community (and pretty much the 'net) has such a bad reputation, socially.

[StarkHelsing]

Thank you. Just, thank you.

[badboyishere]

[Heroic 2]s were initially meant to be challenging content for what we would say is an “average” player. If you had good gear and really knew how to play well, you could solo them but you’d still have to pay attention to what you were doing. If you had expected gear for your level and didn’t think of yourself as that skilled, you’d probably find a friend to join you so you could both reap the rewards together.

 

The mythical "average" player. "good gear and really knew how to play well" isn't average. Average is, by definition, mediocre. Not too bad, but not "good gear and play *well*". Expected gear? That's average.

 

Oh, but you didn't say if it was supposed to be challenging for an average player *solo* or in a group. So... which is it? I'm assuming, obviously, from my assessment, you meant "challenging for an average player to do solo". And casual players (less than average... and I'll resist the temptation to use stronger, insulting wording, that has nonetheless been seen on this very forum at times) are supposed to team up to player H2s.

 

Casuals. Those who are much less willing/able to group up. Are supposed to team up for H2s. Do you see the problem? I do. Being sort-of casual and all.