Draqsko Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Completely separate issues here. Tux and I came from POT5. We both have first hand experience on a pvp server. It's why I left them specifically out of the discussion. They've been in decline far far longer than this companion nerf has been in existence, or even this expansion has been in existence. Thus, the reasons for pvp server demise are much greater than the discussion at hand. PvP server population is an outlier when it comes to analysis. And, unfortunately, it will not provide adequate representation. Also as a secondary question, wouldn't PvE servers specifically be more of a target to look at anyway since the companion issue is a PvE issue and not a PvP one? My point was, you aren't seeing a drop off because those servers are absorbing the losses by taking players from other servers. The game has declined in population in the last year, there is no way you could convince me otherwise. If that wasn't so, then Harbinger would have a log in queue given the number of people who moved to there from an East Coast server this past summer with cheap transfers. West and East servers are in different server farms, sharding isn't being transferred from an east coast server to a west coast one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelinaH Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Adequate does NOT mean equal. People are still doing most, if not all of the H2s with the current companions, just not as fast. Adequate: acceptable in quality. If you still get the job done it is technically acceptable. If it was mass failures cool, I would get that BUT I don't see that. what do I see "If have to meditate now", "trash mobs take more time". These aren't people complaining about "acceptable" it is people talking about optimal. There is a BIG gulf between those two concepts. Some unknown (but potentially significant) number of $15 subs are falling into that gulf. By and large, IME people don't care about whether something is "technically" completable in the game they're playing. Instead, it's "acceptable" if it's fun and enjoyable enough to justify the financial cost and time spent. For some players, after the nerf this is no longer the case for TOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wigetts Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 To all those people giving thanks for the nerf, because the game was too easy with OP companions: If the game was so easy, why didn't you simply dismiss the companion? Oh, wait, maybe you like having a companion at your side. Ok, then... Why didn't you set the companion in passive mode? Oh, wait, maybe you liked the companion doing things, not just walking. Ok, then... Why didn't you toggle off some or most of the healing/dpsing abilities of the companion to make it way lesss overpowered? No more excuses. No more lies. You weren't mad because how boring and easy was the game with those OP companions. The truth is that you didn't want bad and casual players to be able to do things that you consider should be only achievable by you. the OP makes some good points, now the dev' s . funny how folks think sometimes. I suspect , the last statement is pretty much a head/nail moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogunOne Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Well it was until this expac for the most part... needing to grind those yavins dailies till your eyes bled and the grind before was much the same. I completely understand that some people may say "this is a TOR game so it should not be this way..." BUT that and the design that BW has had since they started adding all the MMO grind stuff in 2013 shows that is also mhow they see it. I think the point you may be missing is dailies are dailies, you can only run them once a day. You can make them more accessible to solo players but by doing so you are not speeding up the grind your only giving more people access to elder game play and potentially retaining more players to increase your revenue stream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlin Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) To all those people giving thanks for the nerf, because the game was too easy with OP companions: If the game was so easy, why didn't you simply dismiss the companion? Oh, wait, maybe you like having a companion at your side. Ok, then... Difficult content= content designed to offer a real challenge for the players. Player himself crafting some elaborate spiderweb of self imposed handicaps that the game/game mechanics doesn't in any way recognize or consider is something different. Playing while wearing a blindfold and using your toes instead of fingers doesn't equal a challenging game. Climbing Mount Everest while using all the tools and strength and guile you can bring is difficult. Climbing a 5 meters tall wall using nothing but your own teeth is much more difficult. Yet, most can agree only one of these things feels like rewarding, exciting way to challenge yourself. Other is just a gimmicky exercise in futility. In closing, in never stops to amaze me portion of this community feels it is perfectly valid to argue utterly imbalanced healer pets that make everybody borderline immortal for significant majority of content and actually provide more powerful healers than your fellow players is somehow a sense-making state of matters that needs to be maintained. Edited November 19, 2015 by Stradlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwarzchild Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 My point was, you aren't seeing a drop off because those servers are absorbing the losses by taking players from other servers. The game has declined in population in the last year, there is no way you could convince me otherwise. If that wasn't so, then Harbinger would have a log in queue given the number of people who moved to there from an East Coast server this past summer with cheap transfers. West and East servers are in different server farms, sharding isn't being transferred from an east coast server to a west coast one. We are getting away from the topic at hand by confusing time frames. I was looking specially at the last week and the 24 hour results which would show population trends that could potentially be a result of this nerf since people are specifically claiming they have stopped playing because of the companion change. The short duration population results do not support the notion that people have ceased playing which effectively discredits the notion that there is a mass exodus at hand specifically in regards to companions. If we take a full year snap shot to support or deny companion change influence on population change that's akin to hypothesizing that because of a companion nerf that is 48 hours old it explains population decline that has been in effect for years. It's not a sensical conclusion. There are too many other factors at play that would explain a population decline over a year. One would be that 4.0 didn't offer any pvp or pve end game content that was new. That's separate from companions and not what's being debated in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 TUXs! :eek: I am in the boat of, yes they were overpowered and needed a nerf BUT no no, NOT this much at all. It was a ton of fun with them being so powerful and I could see why the nerf but they did way too much of a nerf. Exactly...they were great fun, but to deny they were OP would be disingenuous. They needed a tweak...not a gutting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 We are getting away from the topic at hand by confusing time frames. I was looking specially at the last week and the 24 hour results which would show population trends that could potentially be a result of this nerf since people are specifically claiming they have stopped playing because of the companion change. The short duration population results do not support the notion that people have ceased playing which effectively discredits the notion that there is a mass exodus at hand specifically in regards to companions. If we take a full year snap shot to support or deny companion change influence on population change that's akin to hypothesizing that because of a companion nerf that is 48 hours old it explains population decline that has been in effect for years. It's not a sensical conclusion. There are too many other factors at play that would explain a population decline over a year. One would be that 4.0 didn't offer any pvp or pve end game content that was new. That's separate from companions and not what's being debated in this thread. Sorry, I wasn't meaning to refer to just the companions being the fault, and even if companions do cause subs to drop, it's impossible to even see the effects of that right now. You'll have to wait a couple months for when people's sub time runs out before most people will actually stop playing. Sure some people will just stop altogether, but most people will try to maximize the money they spent already and keep playing until the time expires and then they will quit. But the game has declined a lot in the last year, mostly because of choices made like the companion nerf. The bugs and exploits in SOR definitely resulted in a decline of subs that might have otherwise stayed had they fixed them quickly instead of letting them linger over a month. This companion nerf has the potential to have the same effect on the game population. It might not kill the game, but it will lessen the number of people playing and that is just SWTOR walking the Green Mile if they don't change how they operate. Repeatedly making disastrous mistakes like this is what kills games. People can forgive a big mistake once in awhile, but not when it is every time you turn around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdimports Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 The people were upset that other people that were not them were able to do the heroics and other missions without asking for their help. They assume if they can Nuke Nerf our companion to make it borderline useless we'd have no choice. We'd be forced to now do groups with them etc. RogerApple, you sir, are a genius! Skilled players who didn't need easy mode love random pickup groups with mediocre players who do need easy mode. I'm honestly jealous that you were able to think of that--probably with little contemplation. You have blown my mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxHellsmokexx Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I really didn't realize there was a nerf until looking at forums today. Why? Because it felt about the same difficulty as pre-patch to me with a rank 7 companion. Only difference I noted was that I was actually getting to run through my rotation instead of just spamming my highest damage powers because what I was doing didn't really matter. Was the best time I've had in weeks. I didn't adjust my companion because I didn't see the point. I'm here for the story, but appreciate the combat challenge. I've felt like the companions were a bit much ever since I noticed my companion regularly doing about 3x more damage with their powers than I was. I'm a tank, so damage isn't really my thing anyway, but that seemed more than a touch overboard. Such a liar..so you didn't notice the heals from your companion going from 19k to 3 k? lol okay, go lie to someone else.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 RogerApple, you sir, are a genius! Skilled players who didn't need easy mode love random pickup groups with mediocre players who do need easy mode. I'm honestly jealous that you were able to think of that--probably with little contemplation. You have blown my mind! yes, he clearly nailed it. all elite mmo players love nothing more than helping unskilled players complete unrewarding 2man content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Some unknown (but potentially significant) number of $15 subs are falling into that gulf. By and large, IME people don't care about whether something is "technically" completable in the game they're playing. Instead, it's "acceptable" if it's fun and enjoyable enough to justify the financial cost and time spent. For some players, after the nerf this is no longer the case for TOR. And if people want to make that argument fine. My main issue is with the hyperbole. They say it is "impossible" but then say "I have to meditate" as the evidence of it. They produce the numbers that describe the extent of the nerf, infer it makes things impossible, but fail to admit the tasks can still be completed. I do not say the DEGREE of the change is acceptable at all. Only that hyperbolic language and cries of doom while note actually speaking constructively about the issue and giving comprehensive data like the gentleman who has a thread detailing each H2 he is doing, only creates more damage and doesn't encourage anything but angst. BW is going to look at such posts and see them as the stereotypical cries of what the stereotypical "gamer geek" with an over inflated sense of entitlement who may leave but more often sucks it up in the end and is still around. Some of the people raging and saying they will suit are people I have seen say this on these forums before. People need to be constructive and not simply rage in a destructive way if they want BW to pay attention. That is half the reason why I am paying as I do. I actually share much of the angst, I am justbsodamn anal retentive that I play devil's advocate to try and get people to address the real issues. I drive my friends irl nuts with this because the rage or make arguments that are easily picked apart, I pick them apart. Often not because I disagree but because I want them to make a solid argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsrachelm Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) To all those people giving thanks for the nerf, because the game was too easy with OP companions: If the game was so easy, why didn't you simply dismiss the companion? Oh, wait, maybe you like having a companion at your side. Ok, then... Why didn't you set the companion in passive mode? Oh, wait, maybe you liked the companion doing things, not just walking. Ok, then... Why didn't you toggle off some or most of the healing/dpsing abilities of the companion to make it way lesss overpowered? No more excuses. No more lies. You weren't mad because how boring and easy was the game with those OP companions. The truth is that you didn't want bad and casual players to be able to do things that you consider should be only achievable by you. Yes and no. Yes, I agree with everything you said about how people could have used companions to enhance the "challenge" factor. Absolutely agree 100%. BUT, although ti may look like it from those self-same vocal posters on the forums, not every hard-core styled player felt as you describe. Yes, many (but certainly not all) on the forums are giving us exactly that impression with their constant insults etc but I have actually come across a small handful who understood why many of us are so upset and also understood that the challenge wasn't to be found in the heroics grind but is actually found in OP's and Hard-mode FP's. They wanted to be able to use those "OP" companions to get through the sickeningly tedious alliance grind at a decent pace so they would have more time to actually do the OP's and Hard-mode FP's they enjoy so much. They totally understood. So, the people who are trolling and enjoying our pain aside, I wouldn't be quite so quick to use that broad brush stroke of condemnation. It's always the handful of mean-spirited ego-centric people in every group who give the rest a bad name and this is no exception. There are some really good and understanding "elite" players too. Edited because...dyslexia LOL Edited November 19, 2015 by mrsrachelm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) Such a liar..so you didn't notice the heals from your companion going from 19k to 3 k? lol okay, go lie to someone else.. he said he ran a tank. I don't notice much on my JK Guardian using the healer because I clearly don't need as much in the way of heals, even in dps mode if I am smart in anything but a H2 SF. You also don't know what content he was speaking of. Calling someone a liar rightt of the gate without such facts is pretty crappy and well... Silly tbh. Edited November 19, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teclado Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Question has been answered many times in many threads This. I'm tired of typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geschmonz Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 It is always the hardcore gamer scum that infests mmorpg forums with their ridiculous demands. And the bad part about that is that game companies listen to them. As like at the start of SWTOR and now after KOTFE dared to become successfull because it adressed solo players and casual gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxHellsmokexx Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 yes, he clearly nailed it. all elite mmo players love nothing more than helping unskilled players complete unrewarding 2man content. Yes..that's exactly it. I see "who needs help, I'm lvl 65" all the time. People want to show off, that's a fact and also why so many cried about the companions making them useless and unable to show off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxHellsmokexx Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Depending on the contents is doing and the class, or his companion choice maybe not. I don't notice much on my JK Guardian using the healer because I clearly don't need as much in the way of heals. I think tank companions got a boost, maybe he uses a tank companion. Calling someone a liar right out of the gate without such facts is pretty crappy. Well with a huge gap between 19k and 3 k he can only be a liar, I call em like I see em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 It is always the hardcore gamer scum that infests mmorpg forums with their ridiculous demands. And the bad part about that is that game companies listen to them. As like at the start of SWTOR and now after KOTFE dared to become successfull because it adressed solo players and casual gamers. If you think a for profit, publically traded company makes decisions based only on the input of a minority of players, which hardcore gamers are, I simply do not know what to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geschmonz Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) If you think a for profit, publically traded company makes decisions based only on the input of a minority of players, which hardcore gamers are, I simply do not know what to say. Sure they do. If they share their bias. Most game designers are hardcore gamers themself. And thats a real problem. The result is a failed SWTOR at release and a massive sub loss as like now after the companion nerf. Edited November 19, 2015 by geschmonz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) Well with a huge gap between 19k and 3 k he can only be a liar, I call em like I see em. Those heal numbers only matter as much as the damage he actually takes with all the defensive crap a tank has. Example I clear H2 SF with Lana doing only 1.1k eHps on the final boss fight, something like 1.5k hps (yes I can link a screen shot if needed) So would I notice the difference between 19k and 3k if she only had 1.1k eHps? Answer...no because she didn't even have to heal half of that new HPS max to keep me alive. Edited November 19, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiDonJorn Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 As long as people learn their class, the mechanics, and stop doing dumb **** that wipes the whole group in tacticals , I'm fine with whatever. Haven't had a smooth run since 4.0 dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarleysRule Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Sure they do. If they share their bias. Most game designers are hardcore gamers themself. And thats a real problem. The result is a failed SWTOR at release and a massive sub loss as like now after the companion nerf. IDK that any BW game ever would be described as aiming for hard cores. This game has gotten easier with every version. They dumbed it down so much, you don't even have to pay attention to a main stat for your class any more. How is that catering to hard cores? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelinaH Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 he said he ran a tank. I don't notice much on my JK Guardian using the healer because I clearly don't need as much in the way of heals, even in dps mode if I am smart in anything but a H2 SF. You also don't know what content he was speaking of. Calling someone a liar rightt of the gate without such facts is pretty crappy and well... Silly tbh. This. I've noticed far fewer complaints from players who play tanks or normally run with tank companions. Companion effectiveness (or the perception thereof) seems to vary wildly based on character class and discipline, companion role, presence/influence, level and gearing, and the type and level of content being attempted. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are at least a few players who feel very little impact from the nerfs. Of course, the other side of the bell curve holds those folks who are finding stuff to be (from their perspective) virtually impossible -- or at least far more difficult and/or tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) Sure they do. If they share their bias. Most game designers are hardcore gamers themself. And thats a real problem. The result is a failed SWTOR at release and a massive sub loss as like now after the companion nerf. This is so much rationalized nonsense. The devs do NOT call the shots. The bean counters set goals that the CEO passes down. Market analysis determines how to meet those goals, the Producer/Project manager says "devs this is our plan." The devs click their heals and say "yes sir". This whole " most devs are hard core gamers and this is why stuff happens" stopped the minute this became Mega Corp Big business stuff and that sir is a fact. These decisions are now made by looking at financial models and then market analysts sitting down trying to figure out how that financial model, in particular, can be maximized. Edited November 19, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts