Maybe the game is getting too casual?

[PadsterPwns]

I was thinking the same thing yesterday. With super-powered comps and easy content people are going to play the game with ease, but once they get to the harder end-game content the difficulty spike may put them off.

 

To be honest I tried a raid once, got my a** handed to me and never tried again lol. I think the biggest problem with 4.0 is how easy it has made things, my best example being that I fought two strong mobs with my comp and I finished with 3/4 of my health whereas before I'd either die or survive with 1/4 of my health. I don't get the mentality of "people shouldn't have to learn" because all it does is give the new player a disadvantage at endgame where you can't stomp everything and it ruins the idea of games in general. Be it COD, Skyrim or SWTOR you still need to learn the basics (in SWTOR's case things like interrupts) otherwise you don't become better, so things being so easy could legitimately hamper new players. Keep in mind I only use one hand as well.

Edited October 24, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[TrillOG-]

Learn how to play? Most people are doing fine.

 

Oh, you are going back t the RAID OR DIE mentality... yeah 2005 called.

Someone got kicked from raids for being clueless...

[Chimerako]

It's honestly not a "GAME" if that's what bioware wants...mission accomplished. I dont have to pay attention, I can use whatever abilities I want , I don't have to have a rotation, I can stand directly in attacks with no need of avoiding them. lol its hilarious I was fighting a boss in chapter three or four and I aggro'ed 8 enemies on my way to the boss fought all 9 and didn't get below 70% health. There is a line between casual and brain dead faceroll. I can engage a mob...leave my comp and go afk, grab a snack come back with no fear of dying. Where is the fun in that? I like the story but I've been robbed of the rewarding victory. I finish a chapter and I don't feel like I've accomplished anything. It's making me feel like I not supposed to be here, this isn't my game anymore. Why work hard? just complain until they give everyone the trophies.

[stockmks]

Yeah but i don't think it had to be with swtor. Random points:

 

- The rotations are still insane here compared now to the majority of mmo's that are still standing. If any player survives to the end, they've gotten some sort of grip on how to play, but apparently not, apparently the moment they could, because its too hard they go right back to dk at level 60 and use the first two abilities they got, which work just fine.

 

- They applied the boogey man deception (to keep the weak minded running their credit cards) on group content. This probably wasn't the best idea.. if free people are there in part to provide bodies for the premiumly restricted players, then shouldn't all the group content been free and the story content paid? To make the most money you can understand the way it is.. group content doesn't need updates to take years of subscription time, more $ less work, but advertising barriers infront of group content in an mmo probably isn't the sanest thing to do to get all players to engage in it.

 

- I don't know why this hasn't clicked with anyone.. but increases in xp progression and cheapening of commendation mods is what killed flashpoints.. My experiences as a preferred player were quite telling.. i used to do and enjoy flashpoints alot.. i needed the comms and drops to gear my character, and i needed the xp. Just taking one of those away was enough to make them register as a waste of time...

 

- Then tactical flashpoints happened.. opening the door for the worst kind of gameplay.. kdy levelling to the end.. as soon as bioware saw people do this, it was all over.

 

tldr: content collapsed because bioware made it so it could collapse... they should have sold shortcuts instead of diluting the mechanics.

 

... i'm a but tickled. so you're asked to tank in a tactical flashpoint.. then after a while the marauder, who you can see has been waiting for the most opportune moment to get twitchy and starts pulling. You can't say anything really because its a tactical flashpoint. This isn't going to last.....

Edited October 24, 2015 by stockmks

[Lord_Iurus]

I'm planning a Guild Run of Dread Palace Nightmare Mode on Monday and everybody is terrified it will be impossible at 65. I'll let you know after that if the game is casual only.

[Bakakiba]

It's honestly not a "GAME" if that's what bioware wants...mission accomplished. I dont have to pay attention, I can use whatever abilities I want , I don't have to have a rotation, I can stand directly in attacks with no need of avoiding them. lol its hilarious I was fighting a boss in chapter three or four and I aggro'ed 8 enemies on my way to the boss fought all 9 and didn't get below 70% health. There is a line between casual and brain dead faceroll. I can engage a mob...leave my comp and go afk, grab a snack come back with no fear of dying. Where is the fun in that? I like the story but I've been robbed of the rewarding victory. I finish a chapter and I don't feel like I've accomplished anything. It's making me feel like I not supposed to be here, this isn't my game anymore. Why work hard? just complain until they give everyone the trophies.

 

If you're working hard in a video game, you're doing it wrong.

[Kalfear]

People just don't learn how to play their roles anymore, because everything is getting too easy.

And then as soon as it gets a little challengeing, people are overwhelmed. I was in a flashpoint yesterday via GF, and it

was all dd's.....but still people didn't feel the need to heal themselves up before fights. Plus the tank didn't even know what that was.

On the other hand you can't blame them, when you have companions that can do most of the content alone

I would like if players took their time again and wait and discuss strategies before just pulling everything.

 

LOL maybe???

 

The game has been to casual since closed beta

its never had any real challenge or skill to it

its the setting that is the winner and the draw.

 

Many many many others have said it in the past

If not for the Star Wars title,

This game would not have survived 2 years

Which isnt a great compliment to any of us who subscribe still

 

But its not false.

This game has always been ultra easy mode with the exception of hard mode and nightmare mode content

And the hard modes have been signifigantly reduced in 4.0

and the nightmare mode mostly removed

 

SW:TOR has never been about challenge, skill, tactics

And thats not a new claim

thats just a very very very old truth

[izadar]

Too casual? I don't think that's even possible. I love the direction they are taking with swtor. The most successful western mmo (you know the one i'm talking about) is also the most casual. Take that for what you will.

[annabethchase]

I would like if players took their time again and wait and discuss strategies before just pulling everything.

 

No, please no. I don't want to have to discuss strategy just to get some random person I don't know through story mode content. In depth learning should never be in a pickup group.

[Dallayna]

LOL maybe???

 

The game has been to casual since closed beta

its never had any real challenge or skill to it

its the setting that is the winner and the draw.

 

Many many many others have said it in the past

If not for the Star Wars title,

This game would not have survived 2 years

Which isnt a great compliment to any of us who subscribe still

 

But its not false.

This game has always been ultra easy mode with the exception of hard mode and nightmare mode content

And the hard modes have been signifigantly reduced in 4.0

and the nightmare mode mostly removed

 

SW:TOR has never been about challenge, skill, tactics

And thats not a new claim

thats just a very very very old truth

 

Actually, I disagree.

 

Frankly, a good portion of the time, due to physical and time limitations, I'm forced to be a semi-casual player that really isn't all that interested in SW. Seriously. Couldn't care less. They were good movies for their day and that's about it.

 

 

What drew me to this game? The storylines. No kidding.

 

Didn't think I'd actually care about them. I mean, up until SWTOR, I was a "team for fun with friends and even random strangers just for fun- click through the damned textbox to get to the mission" kinda gal.

 

Then, I actually tried this game because a buddy gave me one of his slots to try a character with (it was all sub in those days) and.... Well, you know what? I have never remembered when, where or why I started really liking any MMO I have ever played (and I grew up playing them with my mother) but, this one? Yeah, I remember. It was on my first sorc on DK- that mission with the missing squad/future droids.... I felt so sad, so disgusted, so ticked off that I just had to walk away.

 

My beloved was home and asked me what was up and I proceeded to launch into an extremely passionate diatribe about the entire thing when it hit me.... Holy crap! This stuff's actually interesting!!!!!

 

Mid-word, I stopped, walked across the room, reached for my wallet, pulled out my credit card and just subscribed right then and there because, that's when I knew that they had me. I actually cared about some random bits of light that I couldn't even customize to look good.

 

Now, I'll grant that my days of spending hours upon hours upon hours of being able to raid and craft and run missions on the same toon for years have passed (college and beyond does take a bit of time out of your day) and that a physical disability means that I can't play exactly the same way that you can anymore, but, I really don't think that should mean that I shouldn't be "allowed" to ever play any games like ever either. How is that ever fair?

 

Point is?

 

Yeah, it might have been considered "casual" by you but, for a lot of people, it's just a good game that they can play and... why on earth would you be so dismissive of that- and them?

 

I mean, really, if you want a "challenge," last I checked there was less than no one stopping you and certainly no one insulting you about it either (everyone seems to love insulting the "casual" player but nothing resembling even so much as constructive criticism seems to be directed towards the "hardcores").

 

Particularly given that, as your comment here proves, you have to still be playing it, right? So, it would just seem to me that there has to be something that keeps you logging in, right?

 

In other words, why are you being so mean to people who just want to play a game?

 

That being said?

 

Yeah. I'm an openly "semi-casual" player that's been subbing here for years and... I can't stand some of this "dumbing down "crap entirely either.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm going to finish checking all of these changes out before I decide entirely but....

 

Right now? I can only think of two reasons for this entire "mastery" stuff...

 

1) They think we're morons. (In which case I will be ticked off beyond the telling of it)

 

2) Certain things in MMO's are pretty much "written in stone" from the moment they come on-line. It might (might) be, that in order to open up all gear for everyone (player and companion alike) was to re-name all of it- thus bypassing some deeply embedded subroutine that they couldn't find any other way around.

 

Right now? I don't know. Since it is such a fundamental change, programing-wise, I'm going to give them a chance thought and see where this goes when it shakes out in about 6 months to a year (about the same amount of time I'd give any brand new MMO). Not because I'm a forgiving sort but because, I know that it takes about that long for a brand new MMO to start to "shake down" and, I honestly can't see how such a massive change like this isn't on-parr with that. So...

 

About one more expansion and all of the fixes in-between and maybe, if (and only if I see some hope during that time) the next expansion after that to catch onto their logic of this whole thing and fix the damned problems or... yeah, I too will be cancelling my subscription.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Dallayna

[Nihilkult]

Why some guys only think in extremes? I don't want the game to be ultra hard.....but also not brainless easy.

Trust me i suck at this game....i only use the W and the rest i navigate with the mouse, but still i managed to learn how to do a flashpoint.

I am far from an elite player, but i would just like people if they join group content to take their time and and act as a team. Listen, learn, give input and so on

This was how i experiencend group content ( raids and flashpoints).

 

People taking their time? Never heard of that before and after 4.0. Oh wait, I didn't try to group after 4.0. Because of falling 9 times out of 10 on people who don't even say hello , ignore your "hey first time there, anything I should know?" and end up wiped because everyone does stuff without warning the others.

[VitalityPrime]

People just don't learn how to play their roles anymore, because everything is getting too easy.

And then as soon as it gets a little challengeing, people are overwhelmed. I was in a flashpoint yesterday via GF, and it

was all dd's.....but still people didn't feel the need to heal themselves up before fights. Plus the tank didn't even know what that was.

On the other hand you can't blame them, when you have companions that can do most of the content alone

I would like if players took their time again and wait and discuss strategies before just pulling everything.

 

I'll admit that I didn't think pre 4.0 wasn't bad at all...but I will also admit that 4.0 isn't bad either.

 

Do I think there are changes in 4.0 that I would never make? Yes...but overall, I don't mind the changes, and actually like nearly all of them.

Edited October 25, 2015 by VitalityPrime

[Haruen]

Yeah, I've been playing the game solo for years, but this seems way too easy.

[Dallayna]

Yeah, I've been playing the game solo for years, but this seems way too easy.

 

It does seem a little excessive....

 

Then again, it could be a momentary thing that they have to go through in order to change the basic components of letting folks use whatever companions however they want and/or allowing all gear to go to appearance based....

 

Now, since can't really complain on that score (who wouldn't want to finally be able to keep Vector/Akari past level 50 or be able to pick their character's beloved as a constant companion because they're the one that character wants near them ever and always.....)

 

Okay, so, this is a pretty major-core thing... Obviously messing around with it's going to take some time, wouldn't it?

 

So....

 

I'm going to give them some time- the same time I'd give a brand new MMO.... They may get it together by then or they may not but... frankly?

 

Until that time has passed and I know more... I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things first... We'lll see if this is worth continuing......

[YodaHardstyle]

I love the way the game is right now. I'm happy to be subbed. I get to enjoy the story mode on all my characters and it's fun and not a grind. I don't give a flip about raiding. There are a lot of good games out there that force grouping and require a lot of skill in pve content, knowing the fights, etc.

 

This is a great game to play solo and to group whenever you feel like it. It's an option for instanced content and pvp. But if I want to run with my companion, I can finally enjoy the story and the cut scenes!

 

So yeah, I'm pretty casual in this game. If I want hardcore games, there are others where the story is meh and I don't care about it. The focus on those games is somewhere else. I think BioWare is going with their strengths this time.

[DalrisThane]

Then that raises the question, if the lowest common denominator rarely sticks with the game then why is it such a trend for MMO devs to cater to them?

 

Obviously, I'm guessing since I'm not privy to numbers. My personal made up guesses are:

 

1-They are wrong but don't know it yet.

 

 

Just like some predict the "super-hero movie" bubble will burst soon, the "casual game" bubble will soon too. Maybe game by game. Maybe as an industry. But it's coming.

 

 

2- They are wrong, know it, but don't care.

 

 

As per 1- but they want to milk casuals while they can.

 

 

3-They are partially right in that casuals are better in the short term but not long term.

 

 

I'll keep number low to ease the fake math. (not meant to be realistic... it's meant to be easy to get...)

 

Say 3 hardcore players will stick with it if it's hard.

 

But instead, the devs make the game easy. 16 casuals go in. 3 hardcore leave. You're now 13 more than "par" for that quarter.

 

Then, next quarter, the 16 casuals leave, 15 new casuals come in. 12 more than par.

Next quarter after that = 15 out, 14 in, etc...

 

This fake math means the game will get shutdown in 4 years, but for the first 3 years, it did better that if it had stuck with hardcore.

 

Sure, if they'd stayed with the loyal hardcore, it'd still be running. But, SOME investors want the profit now, and don't believe an MMO is a viable long term investment, true or not.

 

 

4-They are actually right.

 

 

Between the facebook / tablet / app casual players, and hardcores that complain but stick around in the hopes it gets harder, easy MMOs make more money.

 

The expectation is that nothing is like WoW, ergo, plan for the best return on investment, regardless of quality. Cater to casuals. Minimum effort. Maximum return. Get as close to PTW as you can. Hope for a lot of "Gym Membership" players... (Oh, I have my SWTOR sub still running? Lets go see what they added since I played last)

 

 

None of this may actually come close to reality, but I do find it difficult that so many investors and companies can be wrong.

 

Then again, movie wise, someone somewhere thought Highlander 2 was a good idea, so what do I know?...

Edited October 25, 2015 by DalrisThane

[ReverendAnderson]

It seems like there's two major balance issues.

 

1. Companions are way OP and need a hard nerf. The nerf needs to hit the three different rolls differently, but they're all overpowered.

 

2. Because XP rewards scale to your level it's extremely easy to hit the level sync level, but very difficult to get back under it again without skipping critical path quests. Since the sync level is always two levels higher than the hardest thing on the planet, and only the last few enemies are actually that hard in the first place, you'll spend most of your time at the sync level, fighting enemies several levels lower than you are. Even without your companion, there's no threat there, even from bosses.

Edited October 25, 2015 by ReverendAnderson

[JasmineMoldovia]

If you're working hard in a video game, you're doing it wrong.

 

Could not agree more, love the new 4.0

[JasmineMoldovia]

It seems like there's two major balance issues.

 

1. Companions are way OP and need a hard nerf. The nerf needs to hit the three different rolls differently, but they're all overpowered.

 

2. Because XP rewards scale to your level it's extremely easy to hit the level sync level, but very difficult to get back under it again without skipping critical path quests. Since the sync level is always two levels higher than the hardest thing on the planet, and only the last few enemies are actually that hard in the first place, you'll spend most of your time at the sync level, fighting enemies several levels lower than you are. Even without your companion, there's no threat there, even from bosses.

 

And to me that's great, I don't Want threat.

[MaximusRex]

This is the oldest whine in MMO gaming, "The casuals are ruining it!" "People don't learn how to play!"

 

Most people who play games don't come to forums like these, or research gameplay, or anything else. They learn by doing. And some people have a cap on how far that will get them.

[cach-x]

I play mostly solo, due to a weird schedule and other stuff.

 

It's not really that much about difficulty and more about compelling gameplay.

 

Facerolling your way to victory is the opposite of compelling, its mind bendingly, soul crushingly BORING. Solo Flashpoints being the most recent and egregious example.

 

I am not asking for Dark Souls here. I could count the number of encounters with interesting mechanics with one hand, vanilla swtor was better in this respect. I have gotten the most enjoyment out of soloing content meant for 2 or more people. (planning, learning patrols, stealth carefully, wisely using CC, timing my interrupts, etc)., but I shouldn't have to dig around and circumvent the rules of the game to actually have FUN.

[jakeobione]

Every time I see the word (Too casual) I interpret =Less tedious. SWTOR was never difficult, it was simply boring, and tedious with an awful engine for combat/PVP/raids.

 

Bioware recognize this, and decided to simply focus on Story/cut scenes, Something this game does well.

Edited October 25, 2015 by jakeobione

[Diefenbaker]

People just don't learn how to play their roles anymore, because everything is getting too easy.

And then as soon as it gets a little challengeing, people are overwhelmed. I was in a flashpoint yesterday via GF, and it

was all dd's.....but still people didn't feel the need to heal themselves up before fights. Plus the tank didn't even know what that was.

On the other hand you can't blame them, when you have companions that can do most of the content alone

I would like if players took their time again and wait and discuss strategies before just pulling everything.

I've seen this in beta. I've seen this in 1.0. I've seen this is 2.0. I've seen this in 3.0.

 

None of this has anything to do with 4.0. Blaming this on the game becoming "too casual" (whatever that is supposed to mean anyway, since beta this game has never been challenging or hard) is utterly laughable.

 

Also, since we're apparently trading stories, prior to 2.0 I did BT with a BH who was lvl 14, had no AC and rolled need on jugg gear.

 

Ignorant players have always been ignorant. Blaming their ignorance on 4.0 is utterly ridiculous.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Diefenbaker

[PadsterPwns]

Actually, I disagree.

 

Frankly, a good portion of the time, due to physical and time limitations, I'm forced to be a semi-casual player that really isn't all that interested in SW. Seriously. Couldn't care less. They were good movies for their day and that's about it.

 

 

What drew me to this game? The storylines. No kidding.

 

Didn't think I'd actually care about them. I mean, up until SWTOR, I was a "team for fun with friends and even random strangers just for fun- click through the damned textbox to get to the mission" kinda gal.

 

Then, I actually tried this game because a buddy gave me one of his slots to try a character with (it was all sub in those days) and.... Well, you know what? I have never remembered when, where or why I started really liking any MMO I have ever played (and I grew up playing them with my mother) but, this one? Yeah, I remember. It was on my first sorc on DK- that mission with the missing squad/future droids.... I felt so sad, so disgusted, so ticked off that I just had to walk away.

 

My beloved was home and asked me what was up and I proceeded to launch into an extremely passionate diatribe about the entire thing when it hit me.... Holy crap! This stuff's actually interesting!!!!!

 

Mid-word, I stopped, walked across the room, reached for my wallet, pulled out my credit card and just subscribed right then and there because, that's when I knew that they had me. I actually cared about some random bits of light that I couldn't even customize to look good.

 

Now, I'll grant that my days of spending hours upon hours upon hours of being able to raid and craft and run missions on the same toon for years have passed (college and beyond does take a bit of time out of your day) and that a physical disability means that I can't play exactly the same way that you can anymore, but, I really don't think that should mean that I shouldn't be "allowed" to ever play any games like ever either. How is that ever fair?

 

Point is?

 

Yeah, it might have been considered "casual" by you but, for a lot of people, it's just a good game that they can play and... why on earth would you be so dismissive of that- and them?

 

I mean, really, if you want a "challenge," last I checked there was less than no one stopping you and certainly no one insulting you about it either (everyone seems to love insulting the "casual" player but nothing resembling even so much as constructive criticism seems to be directed towards the "hardcores").

 

Particularly given that, as your comment here proves, you have to still be playing it, right? So, it would just seem to me that there has to be something that keeps you logging in, right?

 

In other words, why are you being so mean to people who just want to play a game?

 

That being said?

 

Yeah. I'm an openly "semi-casual" player that's been subbing here for years and... I can't stand some of this "dumbing down "crap entirely either.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm going to finish checking all of these changes out before I decide entirely but....

 

Right now? I can only think of two reasons for this entire "mastery" stuff...

 

1) They think we're morons. (In which case I will be ticked off beyond the telling of it)

 

2) Certain things in MMO's are pretty much "written in stone" from the moment they come on-line. It might (might) be, that in order to open up all gear for everyone (player and companion alike) was to re-name all of it- thus bypassing some deeply embedded subroutine that they couldn't find any other way around.

 

Right now? I don't know. Since it is such a fundamental change, programing-wise, I'm going to give them a chance thought and see where this goes when it shakes out in about 6 months to a year (about the same amount of time I'd give any brand new MMO). Not because I'm a forgiving sort but because, I know that it takes about that long for a brand new MMO to start to "shake down" and, I honestly can't see how such a massive change like this isn't on-parr with that. So...

 

About one more expansion and all of the fixes in-between and maybe, if (and only if I see some hope during that time) the next expansion after that to catch onto their logic of this whole thing and fix the damned problems or... yeah, I too will be cancelling my subscription.

 

Best post in thread IMO. Also (and don't answer if you don't want to) do you play with one hand? If so could you give me a few tips? I can hardly ever reach my interrupt in time lol.

[Chimerako]

If you're working hard in a video game, you're doing it wrong.

 

In your opinion. I accept the fact that I'm not the guy who just presses buttons. Remember playing street fighter against the guy who just randomly pressed buttonso to try to win? if he beat someone he was happy even though he had no clue what he was doing.

 

That way of thinking is far more common now. People are proud they suck. Lowering the basketball goal is only fun for the bad player. For me the challenge was the whole point of playing.

 

Remember game genie? Its sad but people really are paying $15 a month to watch the game play itself. I'm a dinosaur and this patch let me know I've out grown the game. Wildstar tried challenging game play and failed. Star citizen might be my last hope at actually enjoying a game again. It's not bioware's fault for knowing what will make money instead of pleasing gamers.