What are the current FOTM now that 4.0 is here

[Giliodor]

In group ranked, a tank AND healer are present. A double Hatred comp will melt a team regardless of a tank or healer being present. Hatred in it's current incarnation has enough damage loaded into it's spec to almost completely solo a sorc healer with good management of Cc and interrupts.

 

DoTs are not fluff damage, if anything you're simply going against terrible Hatred players or terrible madness sorcs who don't know how to interrupt a heal or use their knockback as an interrupt, etc.

 

Then clearly, I haven't met any half decent Assassins, because I've not had even the slightest trouble outhealing one so far. That, or I'm a Sorcerer God. I believe it's the former.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Can burst win team ranked games? I'm not very rank star so that's why I ask..

 

2 burst specs will put out less collective damage than 2 pressure specs, almost by half. That means a healer needs to work half as hard HPS wise against a burst team. Assuming both comps are rotation ally interrupting a healer and hard stunning them, the pressure comp will easily kill a team in half the time a burst spec could.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Then clearly, I haven't met any half decent Assassins, because I've not had even the slightest trouble outhealing one so far. That, or I'm a Sorcerer God. I believe it's the former.

 

Maybe you both. Perhaps you're decent and they're bad?

 

Edit: besides, aren't regs Full of people still trying to get gear? As in they have less than 2018 expertise which hurts their damage...?

Edited October 24, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Giliodor]

Maybe you both. Perhaps you're decent and they're bad?

 

Maybe... Or maybe those DoT specs aren't very strong after all But I'll take your word for it, you're for sure a lot more experienced than I am.

 

Edit to your edit: Yes, but there are plenty of people who stacked up Comms and purchased a full 208 set right away. I'm sure I've run into one of those by now, don't you think?

Edited October 24, 2015 by Giliodor

[ShredderStatus]

Madness doesn't do THAT well in 65's

Jugs and sents have enhanced mobility and you usually waste your stuns on them. To no avail.

It's not the damage output from the skill it's the implications of it.

 

Source- full 208 exemplar, 208 augmented

[jedcjedcjedc]

2 burst specs will put out less collective damage than 2 pressure specs, almost by half. That means a healer needs to work half as hard HPS wise against a burst team. Assuming both comps are rotation ally interrupting a healer and hard stunning them, the pressure comp will easily kill a team in half the time a burst spec could.

 

except one is over 18 seconds and one is instant. dropping 3-5k from 3 dots, death field, and lightning, or dropping 25k from one move, which does the healer need to work harder on? not to mention you keep referring to the focus target as the fluff damage, when that would be the only one who isnt. the other 1-7 people that get hit with the death field who you are not hitting and just get the dots applied, that is fluff damage. they're in no danger

[Technohic]

"Fluff Damage" wins team ranked games. But I wouldnt expect the common regstar to understand that.

 

Dude I m a reg star at best and I can tell you when a sorc DOTs me, it effing hurts. Sure, its no ambush but they can apply and hide behind LOS while it chips away in chunks.

 

I can't believe how many sorcs will throw out how bad they are that they can't kill anything just to defend the class.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

except one is over 18 seconds and one is instant. dropping 3-5k from 3 dots, death field, and lightning, or dropping 25k from one move, which does the healer need to work harder on? not to mention you keep referring to the focus target as the fluff damage, when that would be the only one who isnt. the other 1-7 people that get hit with the death field who you are not hitting and just get the dots applied, that is fluff damage. they're in no danger

 

Look at it this way. Right now in min/maxed 208 my creeping terror Crits for 2600 and discharge hits for 2700 or so. With my gear build + Talents, hatred dots have 55% crit rate. So that's 5300 damage per tick. On 4 players in a group ranked match, that's 22400 damage across 4 players vs 22k damage on one player.

 

Now add another hatred sin. What's harder to heal, 11200 damage on 4 players every 3 seconds or 40k damage on 1 player?

 

On top of those fire and forget dots, the players will STILL be using AoE Lacerate as well as heavy hitting burst Assassinates an Leeching strikes.

 

Do you now see why DoTs aren't fluff? If not then I give up lol.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Also, DoT spec is CONSTANT damage going out, it's sustained damage so with double dot classes on a team, that's 10k damage per player CONSTANTLY with 100% uptime.

 

Burst specs have burst "windows" followed by windows of downtime which builds into another Burst window. So if you fail to kill anything during a burst window, a healer can just catch up during the down time.

 

Double Hatred/Madness has NO downtime, and that's why it wins games.

 

But like I said, if you don't understand that then oh well.

[Giliodor]

Now add another hatred sin. What's harder to heal, 11200 damage on 4 players every 3 seconds or 40k damage on 1 player?

 

Although I can see where you're coming from... 40k damage on one player every 3 seconds isn't so bad. In fact, that's a lot. The thing is that these DoT's that are on the targets you're not focusing only just outweigh the AoE heals done by Roaming Mend/Revivification(surprised that's actually a word). 40k damage on a single target, however... That isn't so easily outhealed by a single healer.

That's all theoretical, however, and I'm sure that in practice, DoT specs out-perform burst specs in Team Ranked. I have no idea how to get into Team Ranked, although I'd like to try it, but again, I'll take your word for it.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Although I can see where you're coming from... 40k damage on one player every 3 seconds isn't so bad. In fact, that's a lot. The thing is that these DoT's that are on the targets you're not focusing only just outweigh the AoE heals done by Roaming Mend/Revivification(surprised that's actually a word). 40k damage on a single target, however... That isn't so easily outhealed by a single healer.

That's all theoretical, however, and I'm sure that in practice, DoT specs out-perform burst specs in Team Ranked. I have no idea how to get into Team Ranked, although I'd like to try it, but again, I'll take your word for it.

 

No, you misunderstand. It's there is no burst spec in the game that can do 40k damage every 3 seconds with 100% uptime. There are periods of downtime.

 

Double hatred however puts out 40k damage every 3 seconds ONLY through dots alone with 100% uptime on 4 targets in group ranked.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Also, you can only do roaming mend and revivication once every 12-15 seconds. What will you do for the remaining 11 seconds that dots are damaging your entire team and you have no AoE available? By the time your on your second round of AoE is up, you'll be playing catch up and eventually you will simply crumble. There is NO healer that can out heal 8-9k DPS. There are a ton of healers who can outheal 4-5k DPS, which is the average dps that 2 burst specs will put out during an entire ranked match.

[IHate]

But don't you see? Sorcs/sages need more BURST!! It's not fair that other classes are crit ting for 20K+ while poor sorcs are left with dealing a paultry 4.8 million dmg. Until sorcs break the 7 million mark in each and every wz with each and every player regardless of skill level, they will need more buffs...and don't even get me started about sorcs' horrendous survivability...

 

Kind of a dumb post when you see how many MASSIVE HEALS were in that wz tbh.

[Bolizlyfe]

Rage jugg is FOTM. You guys just sleepin

[Fordbird]

Kind of a dumb post when you see how many MASSIVE HEALS were in that wz tbh.

 

Even with those MASSIVE HEALS the next class had less than half that damage. If you don't see how 4.8 mill dmg in a single warzone is super helpful to ANY team, then I really don't know how else to help you understand. My post was first of all meant to be sarcastic, but also to illustrate the ridiculousness of sorc players whining about a lack of burst...which basically sounds like players saying, "we're top in dps, we're top in overall damage, we're top in heals, but that's not good enough unless we're top in kills and burst." I don't really see a viable platform for sorcs to qq about anything related to pvp right now.

[alexsamma]

In group ranked, a tank AND healer are present. A double Hatred comp will melt a team regardless of a tank or healer being present. Hatred in it's current incarnation has enough damage loaded into it's spec to almost completely solo a sorc healer with good management of Cc and interrupts.

 

DoTs are not fluff damage, if anything you're simply going against terrible Hatred players or terrible madness sorcs who don't know how to interrupt a heal or use their knockback as an interrupt, etc.

 

No one with experience is going to argue that dots are fluff damage, but I can't recall fighting a double hatred team that was actually challenging;, a good tank is going to gut the dps of one of the sin's and that basically turns the match into a hps farm for your healer

 

Compare double hatred/madness to double carb + dot spread (hatred/madness or a GOOD leth. sniper) and I'll opt to fight a double madness/hatred team any day of the week.

Edited October 24, 2015 by alexsamma

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

No one with experience is going to argue that dots are fluff damage, but I can't recall fighting a double hatred team that was actually challenging;, a good tank is going to gut the dps of one of the sin's and that basically turns the match into a hps farm for your healer

 

Compare double hatred/madness to double carb + dot spread (hatred/madness or a GOOD leth. sniper) and I'll opt to fight a double madness/hatred team any day of the week.

 

Let's examine "why" double carb works though.

 

1. Carbonize is broken and goes through shroud and various other "resist" mechanics.

2. It's the only AoE stun in the game.

3. It gives such a small amount of resolve that you can actually slightly overlap them, get an effective 5 second AoE hard stun, and still not give the enemy a full resolve bar, allowing more AoE cc to be applied, such as flashbang.

 

 

Because of those mechanics, you can't stun break the 2nd Carb or you leave yourself open to a 3rd stun. This prevents a tank from guard swapping, a healer from healing and DPS from using DCDs.

 

If one of the PTs was Pyro and the other DPS was madness, guess what? You have the same pressure DPS comp but this time you have superior AoE control and the enemy healer cannot even catch up nearly as effectively as if there weren't 2 AoE hard stuns on the enemy team.

 

Double carbo success has nothing to do with the DPS composition, the secondary DPS could be anything. It has everything to do with Powertechs having the ONLY AoE hard stun in the game and they come conveniently with a grapple so that they can ensure they get all enemies caught in the carbonize, which means more control over the enemy team.

 

I guarentee you that if BW gave sorcs or sins an AoE stun, double Hatred would still be more viable because at that point not only could you hard stun an entire enemy team, but you'd also be doing tons of sustained and burst damage that the enemy team can't heal our guard swap.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[xAgonyyy]

Did somebody say heal 2 full?

[NeverSuffer]

The obvious fix to all FOTM issues is to just make a Kirby class. Just suck up whatever the FOTM is and bam! You're a sorc... a sin.... whatever it happens to be. Gee how has this not been introduced yet?

[AlrikFassbauer]

3. It gives such a small amount of resolve that you can actually slightly overlap them, get an effective 5 second AoE hard stun, and still not give the enemy a full resolve bar, allowing more AoE cc to be applied, such as flashbang.

 

Thank you for that explanation ! Now I finally know why I often get "hindered"( not technically meaning; stuns etc. ) so much !

 

Now I finally understand why it is so easy for multiples of them to lock me up in a certain position and disallow me to get on !

 

At least for my - now mid-level - Gunslinger ...

 

Worst point is, that my Gunslinger don't even has his cleansing ability yet ...

Edited October 25, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[AlrikFassbauer]

no, nobody did say that, stop making **** up you irrelevant pleb

 

You have acquired an excellent level of speaking like a Sith in-game ! Congratulations !

[Vileknight]

I would just like to point out that my 65 Concealment Operative feels EXACALLY the same as it did 60, I put out the same pressure (maybe even a bit less) while gaining a bit of survivability through Kolto Fortification. I am fine with this but i can see the allure of other DPS classes being FoTM.

[Aluvi]

I would just like to point out that my 65 Concealment Operative feels EXACALLY the same as it did 60, I put out the same pressure (maybe even a bit less) while gaining a bit of survivability through Kolto Fortification. I am fine with this but i can see the allure of other DPS classes being FoTM.

 

That's because barely anything changed. Classes got one new utility ability, they changed how crit works, and nerfed several classes to make sure that the crit changes didn't make them overpowered. This entire expansion is 100% story, with a little bit of new raid content. In terms of PvP, we might as well still be in 3.x.

[Icykill_]

Yes, Sorcs can do greater DPS. Awesome. What exactly does that achieve when their AoE DoT's are easily outhealed? I've mainly been playing marauder at 65 since the expansion hit, and in Fury it's absolutely great. In almost every match I'm top DPS (or at least top of my team - sometimes we don't have a healer and get farmed). As a matter of fact, I eat Sorcs for lunch. And of course, those aren't good players, but they're obviously not nearly as strong as you make them out to be, nor are mara's nearly as weak as you make them out to be.

 

Let sorcs spread their DoT's and get their nice DPS numbers, but that's not what kills people - it's the single target burst (at which mara's excel) that kills people.

 

That is what I've been saying... ^^

I play all classes and Fury Mara's are doing very well against most classes and usually in the top 3 dps... I'm was loving my Mara pre 4.0 and it's just as much fun now...

My Sorc was always my favourite and I've seen them go from OP to UP, buff to nerf, over and over again... When 3.0 was released, before the single target nerf to lightning happened, I was the happiest I'd been since launch with my Sorc... I wasn't a force storm spammer looking for numbers... I was a single target, dps burst destroyer on a hunting mission... Everyone QQ'd then how OP Sorcs FS was... Ok fair enough, it was a dumb move to make it part of the rotation... But Bio being Bio only saw QQ, OP, NERF Sorcs... So they nerfed the wrong thing, single target burst dps... When everyone still complained about FS, they finally got around to nerfing it, but never returned the single target burst to lightning... At the same time everyone was QQing about Madness being UP and asking for buffs... So they get a buff and they buff heals just because they can... Once again Sorcs are OP...

The problem is that each time it's been a different spec that they are nerfing or buffing and people only hear how OP Sorcs are... Well Lighning Sorcs are so UP at the moment it's stupid... I genuinely feel sorry for anyone still playing that spec... Which was me until I realised I was throwing double "a" batteries at the enemy instead of lightning... while madness dot spec does pump out some high numbers, I would drop it in a second for some burst dps... Dot spreading is boring as hell, especially when the burst you do have is so weak...

Give Sorcs less survivability and higher burst

 

Edit : forgot to add... How stupid is it that I can crit heal 15-17k on my madness or Lighning Sorcs, but can only crit 6-9k DPS on madness and 9-11k lightning...

It's obvious that the Devs have put too much emphasis on survivability and healing and not enough on damage... Does anyone really think a Sorc could have the sort of scoreboard damage they have if they could heal "only double" and not 10 times more than what a merc can... Of course not... they wouldn't have enough time to fluff up numbers because they'd be dead...

Devs, drop some of the stupid healing available on Sorcs for an increase in burst damage...

Edited October 25, 2015 by Icykill_

[Vileknight]

That's because barely anything changed. Classes got one new utility ability, they changed how crit works, and nerfed several classes to make sure that the crit changes didn't make them overpowered. This entire expansion is 100% story, with a little bit of new raid content. In terms of PvP, we might as well still be in 3.x.

 

The problem with your assessment is that even though all classes only got utility, it drastically changes some of the dps classes because you are able to get away/stick on a target longer. Concealment dps stayed the same because our uptime on targets was already high in PvP. Add more uptime to maras/juggs/PT's/ect and you can see the difference it makes.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Vileknight