Level Sync needs an Off Button! : ).

[GalacticKegger]

Complaining without ever once giving a logical response to why it should be optional is not stating a fact, sorry.

Don't be. In this thread alone enough logical reasons have been provided to sink an aircraft carrier, and none of them need your approval to be valid. For the record here are a few of mine:

3. Elder game world bosses, Alliance H2s, tactical FPs and tactical HMs could be separately instanced similarly to Black Hole and Section X. It's not like the planets are lacking in spare real estate to accommodate it.

 

Elder game players don't want to mess with planets. They just want to QT in, complete it and QT out. The whole grind is set up that way. That's why every Alliance H2 has an icon in the mission panel that the player can click to instantly teleport them there, then to the next one ... and to the next one ...

 

Level 65s zipping around planets would be there primarily for story, cheevs or datacrons ... and none of those have anything to do with level. When not level sync'd they can simply go in, blow past mobs without the lowbies worrying about them stealing aggro, do the deed then instantly port back to fleet, their stronghold or guild cap ship. If they want to play with or mentor a leveling guildie as an OP 65 ... good for them! Mobs respawn. If they camp then they get reported for griefing. If a 65 truly wants to play with or mentor a leveling guildie at their guildmate's level then they can simply turn level sync on.

So I'll go back on topic and agree with the OP in that Level Sync needs an off button. Not removed, just have an off button added. I would never be so conceitedly arrogant as to demand that others be given no choice but to do things the way I think they should be done. I'm not an ***hole like that. Nor do I consider others to be inferior, especially for simply wanting options that are not aligned with my demands. I have neither the need, nor the desire, to compensate.

Edited January 4, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[LordArtemis]

It seems that some folks that use the word "fact" have no idea what that word means.

[Exscarion]

Maybe you should pay attention to who you're quoting....

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8727273&postcount=503

 

I could care less about the companions, but my personal opinion was they were fine after they got nerfed, just like I have zero issues with level sync and feel that the only people who want it turned off are lazy and probably terrible at the game.

 

uuuuhhhh **** yeah, i am srry. my bad.

[Exscarion]

Complaining without ever once giving a logical response to why it should be optional is not stating a fact, sorry.

 

the anti faction already gave the, to me most logical fact, to save time! but what reason did the pro faction deliver until now? to me not one justifiable reason!

[Ghisallo]

the anti faction already gave the, to me most logical fact, to save time! but what reason did the pro faction deliver until now? to me not one justifiable reason!

 

You are looking at it from the perspective of a player. I am against it because I hate mechanics that are, in essence, a cheap lazy way to make content last longer. This doesn't change the fact though that the solo gear/faction grind for this expac was designed around fixed level sync.

[Ghisallo]

BW can call them what they want. Still not an expansion. Heavnsward is an expansion. Heart of the Thrones is an expansion. Warlords of Dreanor is an expansion. BW idea of an expansion is to release one small zone, a daily area, and if we're lucky a raid. Witcher 3 DLC is bigger in scale than a swtor expansion.

 

That is the one thing I will always have issues with swtor. Their content releases are a joke. Level sync was a good thing for them to do, but they still suck at releasing decent content which is why I play this and FFXIV. I get my fill of good content there and really just stick around swtor for the pvp and once in awhile do a raid or clear the new ones once and go back to pvping.

 

So you can't name one. Thank you.

[Dayshadow]

Like looking for a new job? I mean, it's possible to bareface your way out of being blamed for sinking a game, but do you honestly imagine they're willing to risk their careers and corporate credibility by deliberately making a game tank?

 

Given their choices? Yes. That's what I'm seeing. Rather they succeed or not is a different story.

 

Now, accidentally doing it is another thing entirely.

 

Exactly. They wouldn't be sending memo's to their bosses explicitly stating "we are doing this to tank the game". They are simply doing things under the guise of making it better. Sure, if the game did fail it would totally be "unexpected" and "accidental". ~ wink wink.

[Transcendent]

Same could be said about the supposed dislike for it. Its just an assumption on your part based on forums that straight from BW makes up less than 1% of the total game population

 

Now show me where I've said others don't like Level Sync.

 

So no assumption on my part about how other players perceive Level Sync (if they like it and enjoy it, that's absolutely fine with me). As for your %? Assumption on your part, you have no solid indicator either way (nor do any of the players aside from the developers).

 

If you're going to answer a post and make assertions about others, at least get your facts straight before doing so

[Quraswren]

You are looking at it from the perspective of a player. I am against it because I hate mechanics that are, in essence, a cheap lazy way to make content last longer.

 

Bingo. Down leveling wasn't made to help players or give them any more enjoyment. It's was a cheap and lazy business tool to extend 4 year old launch content so BW could hide just how little they actually did and to do exactly what you said below:

 

This doesn't change the fact though that the solo gear/faction grind for this expac was designed around fixed level sync.

Support this ^

 

They added in down leveling more for the grind than for solo gear.

A faction grind that provides little to no reason to do it. Sure, down leveling was made to support that but it was a mistake to make it forced all the time just to kill more in game play time as it provides so little to the gamer.

 

There are much better ways to accomplish what down level does but do it as optional. Be it leveling with a friend, world bosses or even the grind (if you do it at all given how bad and unrewarding it is).

 

Optional. The ability to toggle it off is how down leveling should have been designed from day one and not put in game till it was optional. BW making it forced all the time was exactly what you said: " a cheap lazy way to make content last longer" and thats not good for gamers no matter how BW or anyone else spins it.

[Morthion]

Bingo. Down leveling wasn't made to help players or give them any more enjoyment. It's was a cheap and lazy business tool to extend 4 year old launch content so BW could hide just how little they actually did and to do exactly what you said below:

 

(. . .) BW making it forced all the time was exactly what you said: " a cheap lazy way to make content last longer" and thats not good for gamers no matter how BW or anyone else spins it.

 

Out of curiosity, how much effort do you think it took to implement the level sync system as it stands? Have you played through the game with a new level 1 character and noted all the quest changes and even bug fixes?

 

I'm just wondering how much work you think went into implementing this system, that you can call them lazy for doing it.

[DarthSpuds]

Out of curiosity, how much effort do you think it took to implement the level sync system as it stands? Have you played through the game with a new level 1 character and noted all the quest changes and even bug fixes?

 

I'm just wondering how much work you think went into implementing this system, that you can call them lazy for doing it.

 

Yes, I have two level 20 or under toons on the go at the moment; there's been a lot of changes.

 

Still a LOT, LOT cheaper than designing new content from the ground up.

 

All The Best

[GalacticKegger]

Yes, I have two level 20 or under toons on the go at the moment; there's been a lot of changes.

Like what?

Still a LOT, LOT cheaper than designing new content from the ground up.

A LOT LOT cheaper is not what we give Bioware our money for. Edited January 4, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[DarthSpuds]

Like what?A LOT LOT cheaper is not what we give Bioware our money for.

 

You can select on your map to either see or not see "exploration missions" and if you select to not see them those quest-givers do not have a quest icon - now that means in essence a rework of all quest control code, that's a lot of work.

 

The whole levelling from scratch experience seems streamlined, and I don't just mean the higher XP awards - although as it has been a very long time since I had any toons below level 20 I'd be hard pressed to point at specifics.

 

And I agree cheap-option is not what we pay for, I wasn't defending Bioware here.

 

All The Best

[GalacticKegger]

You can select on your map to either see or not see "exploration missions" and if you select to not see them those quest-givers do not have a quest icon - now that means in essence a rework of all quest control code, that's a lot of work.t

Which would still be viable and applicable even with level sync switched off.

The whole levelling from scratch experience seems streamlined, and I don't just mean the higher XP awards - although as it has been a very long time since I had any toons below level 20 I'd be hard pressed to point at specifics.

Some stuff that's changed include the purple map icon that indicated a mission belonging to a party member now indicates both our own story missions as well planet story missions. Which in a full group can get confusing. There is no feeling of progression other than looking at your character level. Planets leveling with you makes item level irrelevant; and other than occasional convos and guest appearances in class story dialogues, companions are now irrelevant too.

 

Early level flashpoints were pretty much taken away as there are no solo mode flashpoints between level 10 and level 29; and the GSI droids in solos cannot be dismissed when there are 2 or more players grouped up. Which leaves tacticals and those were tuned for elder gamers and turn lowbies into flashpaper, even with BiS gear for their level. So flashpoints for lowbies are irrelevant as well.

 

I saw a Youtube video in another post here somewhere featuring a group of "real" level 16s that were scaled to 65 blowing through Red Reaper. Even removed the appropriate ability icons off the bars to make it look like a "real" level 16. The entire commentary was on was how much of a faceroll tacticals are for lowbies. Except they forgot to edit out the part where mousing over gear slots displayed 216 purples.

 

And no worries ... cheers.

Edited January 4, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[Morthion]

Like what?

 

Several multi-stage bonus quests were reworked into something other than "kill 60 of the same mob," some areas were almost completely redesigned to be less of a pointless slog (Tatooine Czerka Base springs to mind), you can actually pick up the Adrenals for the Hutt on the Republic side of Quesh, and those are just off the top of my head.

 

The point is simply that, whether it's cheaper or not, the amount of work that went into retooling all the planets in the game as well as implementing the level sync system (including companion role-switching and scaling old FPs/Ops) cannot be called lazy by any stretch of the imagination.

[Quraswren]

Out of curiosity, how much effort do you think it took to implement the level sync system as it stands? Have you played through the game with a new level 1 character and noted all the quest changes and even bug fixes?

 

I'm just wondering how much work you think went into implementing this system, that you can call them lazy for doing it.

 

Because BW doesn't seem to be doing anything that screams "Lets tackle the hard project" and hasn't gave that impression in well over a year now (content, bug fixes, you name it) . What does seem to be happening is BW taking the easy road on whatever they are doing. The lazy way out. This DLC alone:

 

Short but good story

Nearly 3 months with nothing after launch once again relying to much on story.

No new end game content even on the radar

No new end game content for over a year

No new PVP for over 2 years

One easily done H2 designed for solo

Massive grind based on the story that doesn't do anything once you make it half way and thats only if you care about the H2. (besides given some re-skinned mounts I guess too)

 

Bw isn't doing anything hard and you can bet down leveling falls into that same category. What was easiest to implement?

A mentoring system that allowed gamers to level together at their own option?

A world boss buff/debuff system that still made you need groups to beat them while using the nightmare pilgrim debuff for griefers.

A toggle for down leveling so gamers could play the way they had been for years for the same reward. Turned on for the new reward (if you cared to do it at all given it's uselessness)

 

OR

A forced down leveling system you can't get away from, put on everyone, all so they can slow everyone down in their new massive grind based on 4 year old launch content. Done, so they don't have to put out new end game group content.

 

Thats what was easiest and thats what you got.

[Ghisallo]

Out of curiosity, how much effort do you think it took to implement the level sync system as it stands? Have you played through the game with a new level 1 character and noted all the quest changes and even bug fixes?

 

I'm just wondering how much work you think went into implementing this system, that you can call them lazy for doing it.

 

Yes there are a lot of changes but those changes are a matter of modifying what already exists. Also A LOT of those modifications were not done with the interest of level sync in mind but with the streamlined leveling process in mind if you don't use "free level 60."

 

Now imagine if everyone of those weeklies and the quests to unlock each Star Fortress was NEW. Whether they were instanced or added a new map portion to each planet. The tuning from the ground up for the mobs (vs just figuring out the % per level to tune down existing characters), the coding for the environments etc.

 

Was it work? yes, but you are first, confabulating work done for multiple purposes and second ignoring the amount of work that goes into designing new content vs setting up a standardized scaling mechanic. They did indeed put in work BUT they designed it so that it was the minimal amount of work possible to accomplish a simple goal... attract as many new players as possible while, hopefully, minimizing losses of existing players, with the least amount of expense possible.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ghisallo

[Morthion]

Was it work? yes, but you are first, confabulating work done for multiple purposes and second ignoring the amount of work that goes into designing new content vs setting up a standardized scaling mechanic. They did indeed put in work BUT they designed it so that it was the minimal amount of work possible to accomplish a simple goal... attract as many new players as possible while, hopefully, minimizing losses of existing players, with the least amount of expense possible.

 

Obviously it would have been more work to create a bunch of new stuff. But since we agree that they have actually been working, I think we can throw "lazy" out.

 

I mean, given the limited number of hours in each day, doing the minimal amount of work necessary in order to attract new players while minimizing both existing player loss and expenses sounds like . . . an intelligent thing for them to be doing. Doing something extremely time-consuming when you can achieve comparable results through a much simpler and more efficient process is . . . less than ideal, to say the least.

 

@Quraswren:

 

You described what I have as:

 

A forced down leveling system you can't get away from, put on everyone, all so they can slow everyone down in their new massive grind based on 4 year old launch content. Done, so they don't have to put out new end game group content.

 

That's what was easiest and that's what you got.

 

That's actually not what I got. Leveling characters is extremely fast, now. Those who want just the class story can do it without having to help every piddly person along the way. Therefore, everyone was not slowed down. Leveling a character feels far less grindy than it did previously. The fact that they chose to focus on a part of the game that you seem to ignore does not in any way invalidate the effort required.

 

You rattled off a list of all the new things we haven't gotten. Then you said,

 

Bw isn't doing anything hard and you can bet down leveling falls into that same category. What was easiest to implement?

A mentoring system that allowed gamers to level together at their own option?

A world boss buff/debuff system that still made you need groups to beat them while using the nightmare pilgrim debuff for griefers.

A toggle for down leveling so gamers could play the way they had been for years for the same reward. Turned on for the new reward (if you cared to do it at all given it's uselessness)

 

Every single thing you listed actually sounds easier to implement than a universal level sync system. Implementing the level sync system required a balance pass on each planet. They also fixed bugs and redesigned quests for each planet along the way. The amount of work required there sounds far harder than keeping planetary content the exact same and writing a quick debuff toggle for a player.

[GalacticKegger]

Every single thing you listed actually sounds easier to implement than a universal level sync system. Implementing the level sync system required a balance pass on each planet. They also fixed bugs and redesigned quests for each planet along the way. The amount of work required there sounds far harder than keeping planetary content the exact same and writing a quick debuff toggle for a player.

Which is disheartening for those who may be on the fence about the direction SWTOR is going. I find it difficult to fathom how in one 4 hour patch any game company can cut their core purist player base off at the kneecaps and not give a damn. Makes you wonder how they're going to treat everyone else going forward. It feels as if EA's brass is looking down on us (literally and figuratively) wagering quatloos like the Providers in Star Trek's Triskelion episode. Edited January 5, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[Morthion]

Which is disheartening for those who may be on the fence about the direction SWTOR is going. I find it difficult to fathom how in one 4 hour patch any game company can cut their core purist player base off at the kneecaps and not give a damn. Makes you wonder how they're going to treat everyone else going forward. It feels as if EA's brass is looking down on us (literally and figuratively) wagering quatloos like the Providers in Star Trek's Triskelion episode.

 

Yes, but even if you feel they screwed everything up, I think we have to admit they've worked hard at it.

[Princess_Chibi]

Obviously it would have been more work to create a bunch of new stuff. But since we agree that they have actually been working, I think we can throw "lazy" out.

 

No............. There was a dipstick at my old office who showed up for work, was chronically late and unprepared for meetings, always complained about how hard the job was and yet for some odd reason continued to be employed for years. Dumbest box of rocks I've ever seen.

 

Out of my 11 year career there, occasionally, and by that I mean a handful of times per year, he might do something small. He'd complete some small item, tick off one issue from a list of hundreds, schedule a meeting that he had no choice but to schedule anyways. He "worked"; if the definition of work is completing at least one task annually. But he was also a lazy bast*rd and put in 1% of the work required when compared to the demands of the business and his peers.

 

Lazy is perfectly accurate; Bioware did "something" with KOTFE, yes, that counts as work. But *DAMN* did they do it in the cheapest, fastest, most uncreative and unenjoyable method for their customer that they and we have thus far been able to possibly conceive of.

 

Exerting a MINIMUM amount of effort, provided they exerted any at all (we agree they exerted a minimum of 1%) is a perfectly fitting definition for the descriptor "lazy". They made lazy design decisions, were lazy on their timeline which is why they have to go months without releasing new story, were lazy in their resource planning which is why they couldn't release on time and pushed their initial dates back, and are lazy on their subscriber rewards, which is what this 8 months sub and get HK55 mess is all about.

 

BW was f'n lazy with 4.0. They fixed a few bugs, whoopdie doo..... they had an expac and MONTHS to work on this project. They produced 2-3 weeks of solid quality work out of the months of design and dev time they had. They wasted it. Lazy is a measure of work quality, and they failed here.

 

Now, try and use logic to defend the term "lazy" again. I dare you.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Princess_Chibi

[Ansultares]

so no farming

That's my problem with it. There were a handful of spots throughout the game with open world heroic level content that was worth farming. While I'm sure most people farming that stuff farmed it for credits, I mainly farmed this stuff for gear, in particular nice BOE gear skins less readily found on the GTN.

 

Makes me wonder if mine is the last (only?) juggernaut wearing full TT-15A Powertech. Makes me cry that my options are far more limited for any other characters I have.

[Ansultares]

Implementing the level sync system required a balance pass on each planet.

No, it didn't.

 

They may have performed a balance patch on each planet, and kudos to them if they did, but it wasn't necessary. The content was already level flagged.

 

Anyway, they need to stop dinking around with old content. The leveling process is now heavily streamlined; two quests chains per planet, with an odd assortment of one-off side quests remaining. Speaking of side quests, I wonder how they chose which to keep. I bet it was metrics based, and a ton of great content was lost, because all the metrics show is that the first quest players come across has a 100% completion rate, while that totally awesome quest 10th down the line and kind of tucked away has a 20% or lower completion rate. Stupid metrics based development....

[Morthion]

 

 

Now, try and use logic to defend the term "lazy" again. I dare you.

 

Very well, since you dared me:

 

No............. There was a dipstick at my old office who showed up for work, was chronically late and unprepared for meetings, always complained about how hard the job was and yet for some odd reason continued to be employed for years. Dumbest box of rocks I've ever seen.

 

Out of my 11 year career there, occasionally, and by that I mean a handful of times per year, he might do something small. He'd complete some small item, tick off one issue from a list of hundreds, schedule a meeting that he had no choice but to schedule anyways. He "worked"; if the definition of work is completing at least one task annually. But he was also a lazy bast*rd and put in 1% of the work required when compared to the demands of the business and his peers.

 

Thank you for sharing the story, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand. We'll try and find something with an actual point in the rest of the diatribe.

 

Lazy is perfectly accurate; Bioware did "something" with KOTFE, yes, that counts as work.

 

Then it is not perfectly accurate.

 

But *DAMN* did they do it in the cheapest,

 

You mean they expended absolutely no costs they could avoided? Sorry, incorrect.

 

fastest,

 

were lazy on their timeline which is why they have to go months without releasing new story

 

Make up your mind, then get back to me about logic.

 

most uncreative

 

So absolutely nothing in the expansion was creative? That is actually what "most uncreative" means, you know.

 

and unenjoyable

 

Purely subjective; I'm enjoying it immensely.

 

method for their customer that they and we have thus far been able to possibly conceive of.

 

Actually, I can conceive of far more and worse than all of the (putative) above. Easily. Please don't ascribe you own limited imagination to that of the community at large.

 

Exerting a MINIMUM amount of effort, provided they exerted any at all (we agree they exerted a minimum of 1%) is a perfectly fitting definition for the descriptor "lazy".

 

I would welcome evidence that they only did the minimum amount of work, especially since bug fixes that were unrequired qualify as more than the minimum amount of work, as does making Datacrons legacy-wide. Or are you dealing with some private definition of "minimum" that has nothing to do with conversing in the English language?

 

They made lazy design decisions,

 

Evidence?

 

were lazy on their timeline

 

Evidence?

 

which is why they have to go months without releasing new story

 

Evidence? And are you truly incapable of conceiving any other explanation?

 

were lazy in their resource planning which is why they couldn't release on time

 

Evidence? And are you as incapable of coming up with another explanation as you were previously?

 

and are lazy on their subscriber rewards, which is what this 8 months sub and get HK55 mess is all about.

 

I thought you said they were only doing the minimum effort. Since they don't have to reward subscribers with anything beyond what a subscription gets you, could you please make up your mind what you're actually complaining about?

 

BW was f'n lazy with 4.0. They fixed a few bugs, whoopdie doo..... they had an expac and MONTHS to work on this project.

 

If that's all you noticed, the laziness and problems are not on Bioware's end.

 

They produced 2-3 weeks of solid quality work out of the months of design and dev time they had.

 

Evidence? I'd specifically like to see a list of every change they implemented and the man-hours required for each. Unless you're just taking the lazy way out and making broad unfounded statements that have less to do with what Bioware's actually done and more to do with how you feel.

 

They wasted it. Lazy is a measure of work quality, and they failed here.

 

la·zy

ˈlāzē/Submit

adjective

1.

unwilling to work or use energy.

 

Actually, lazy is not a measure of quality at all. Sloppy is a matter of quality. Demonstrate some of that lack of laziness you claim and learn what words mean.

[Morthion]

No, it didn't.

 

They may have performed a balance patch on each planet, and kudos to them if they did, but it wasn't necessary. The content was already level flagged.

 

I'm uncertain what you mean by "level flagged," could you explain further so we're not discussing different things with the same words?

 

Anyway, they need to stop dinking around with old content. The leveling process is now heavily streamlined; two quests chains per planet, with an odd assortment of one-off side quests remaining. Speaking of side quests, I wonder how they chose which to keep. I bet it was metrics based, and a ton of great content was lost, because all the metrics show is that the first quest players come across has a 100% completion rate, while that totally awesome quest 10th down the line and kind of tucked away has a 20% or lower completion rate. Stupid metrics based development....

 

I'll ask if you've actually played through doing all the side missions. I haven't found a cool mission that's cut -- mostly just pointless killing from multi-stage bonus quests, and lower numbers of killing for bonus quests. My bet, though, is that metrics played a heavy part in showing which quests players got, started, and then never finished or gave up on.