4.0 Assassin feedback

[allexj]

Force Breach.

 

Oh that must be for dps shadow ok

[Evolixe]

Infiltration effect, yes.

[Aelanis]

67% crit on Assassinate, 50% on Death Field and I'm tying my Deception parses. Leaning towards Deception here, though I think one of my assumptions is a tiny bit off for my Hatred math I'll be releasing over the weekend.

[Evolixe]

So basically, thus far I've got this:

 

Deception/Infiltration burst is laughable. However outside of burst windows it's quite strong.

 

The nerf to Force Speed for the Assassin/Shadow class was entirely unnecessary. We didn't really gain much mobility due to the enemy only nature of stride. And since the class lives and breathes upon controlling the field of battle.. this nerf has struck us, our survivability, AND our ability to output damage on other classes by a far too significant margin. Especially now that most if not all classes got more mobile instead.

 

 

We got a whole array of new utilities, but to get the amount of utility points we were used to.. we now have to be level 65 rather than 60. And most new utilities aren't usable because they aren't valuable enough. Or they are only valuable because they are necessary since the idiotic overnerfing this class has seen in certain parts.

 

 

 

Basically, take something away from Deceptions long term damage. Probably in it's entirely to be able to justify a damage output increase on heavy hitters by at least 50%. Current health pools support it, and looking at what other classes can do I genuinely don't believe that this would be too much. Maul, Discharge, Ball Lightning and Assassinate could all use this. Maybe Assassinate in a lesser manner. But the rest of them definitely the full 50.

 

 

Force speed could be restored to it's old form. At least for Assassins and Shadows. And if not that, the cooldown could be AT MOST 20 seconds /w utility.

Sages are naturally a range class so they don't need it as badly nor as often, although I'm not sure about the state of the Sage atm.

 

 

Lastly.. to give people the full experience.. I seriously think you should've given everyone an 8th utility point spendable in any tree to give people the option to choose for one of the new utilities without having to make concessions in habits and essentials. This would create some extra work, but I don't believe it would call upon the apocalypse you guys had probably forseen.

 

 

 

I think that is all I have for now. I'm generally unsatisfied with 4.0, and I regret not having to been able to betatest it.

I hope you guys do something with this. If you need any help, I'll gladly have a chat and do whatever I can.

 

 

Ps. I do like the new story. But good story is no excuse for a badly mechanically functioning game.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Evolixe

[Glower]

Either way, tank spec shouldn't have competing burst with a DPS spec.

 

Buff Deception pls bioware.

 

Is it a (full-)tank or dps geared tank?

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Is it a (full-)tank or dps geared tank?

 

High Endurance DPS mods and enhancements.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

So basically, thus far I've got this:

 

Deception/Infiltration burst is laughable. However outside of burst windows it's quite strong.

 

The nerf to Force Speed for the Assassin/Shadow class was entirely unnecessary. We didn't really gain much mobility due to the enemy only nature of stride. And since the class lives and breathes upon controlling the field of battle.. this nerf has struck us, our survivability, AND our ability to output damage on other classes by a far too significant margin. Especially now that most if not all classes got more mobile instead.

 

 

We got a whole array of new utilities, but to get the amount of utility points we were used to.. we now have to be level 65 rather than 60. And most new utilities aren't usable because they aren't valuable enough. Or they are only valuable because they are necessary since the idiotic overnerfing this class has seen in certain parts.

 

 

 

Basically, take something away from Deceptions long term damage. Probably in it's entirely to be able to justify a damage output increase on heavy hitters by at least 50%. Current health pools support it, and looking at what other classes can do I genuinely don't believe that this would be too much. Maul, Discharge, Ball Lightning and Assassinate could all use this. Maybe Assassinate in a lesser manner. But the rest of them definitely the full 50.

 

 

Force speed could be restored to it's old form. At least for Assassins and Shadows. And if not that, the cooldown could be AT MOST 20 seconds /w utility.

Sages are naturally a range class so they don't need it as badly nor as often, although I'm not sure about the state of the Sage atm.

 

 

Lastly.. to give people the full experience.. I seriously think you should've given everyone an 8th utility point spendable in any tree to give people the option to choose for one of the new utilities without having to make concessions in habits and essentials. This would create some extra work, but I don't believe it would call upon the apocalypse you guys had probably forseen.

 

 

 

I think that is all I have for now. I'm generally unsatisfied with 4.0, and I regret not having to been able to betatest it.

I hope you guys do something with this. If you need any help, I'll gladly have a chat and do whatever I can.

 

 

Ps. I do like the new story. But good story is no excuse for a badly mechanically functioning game.

 

Worst part tbh is that Hatred now has competing burst with 17-18k Assassinates and 10-13k Leeching Strikes, which equate to 13k self heals. Even death field hits 4 targets for about 10k each now....

 

Meanwhile, high endurance dps tank is hitting 16-19k Shocks, 36k Depredating volts, 10-12k mauls with proc and good AoE damage with wither/discharge with proc.

 

Why is sin tank out DPSing Deception using inferior gear? It has less DPS stats since you opt for high endurance mods and still has more survivabilty in raw HP+DCDs AND equal burst as a pure dps spec.

[Aelanis]

Worst part tbh is that Hatred now has competing burst with 17-18k Assassinates and 10-13k Leeching Strikes, which equate to 13k self heals. Even death field hits 4 targets for about 10k each now....

 

Meanwhile, high endurance dps tank is hitting 16-19k Shocks, 36k Depredating volts, 10-12k mauls with proc and good AoE damage with wither/discharge with proc.

 

Why is sin tank out DPSing Deception using inferior gear? It has less DPS stats since you opt for high endurance mods and still has more survivabilty in raw HP+DCDs AND equal burst as a pure dps spec.

 

You're probably gearing wrong and comparing a 90 second CD compressed burst window to a 45 second CD compressed, poorly utilized burst window. If you're not dropping back to back to back 13-16k Discharges, followed by a 20k+ Maul and 20k more damage from Ball Lightning/Twin Surge/Surging Charge, yet you're hitting 16-19k Shocks, you're suffering from confirmation bias.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Aelanis

[mmerry]

You're probably gearing wrong and comparing a 90 second CD compressed burst window to a 45 second CD compressed, poorly utilized burst window. If you're not dropping back to back to back 13-16k Discharges, followed by a 20k+ Maul and 20k more damage from Ball Lightning/Twin Surge/Surging Charge, yet you're hitting 16-19k Shocks, you're suffering from confirmation bias.

 

Yeah did DP tonight and on the raptus challenge burst was good. I still haven't been able to snag a 220 hilt so this would have been higher.

 

but this doesn't matter because its not pvp so w/e

[Aelanis]

Yeah did DP tonight and on the raptus challenge burst was good. I still haven't been able to snag a 220 hilt so this would have been higher.

 

but this doesn't matter because its not pvp so w/e

 

192 MH still, with a bunch of 216 coms gear and level 60 augments (no augments at all in ear/imps), and I did this for my opener. Unfortunately, that cuts off the 12.4k Discharge I had as my first hit.

[mmerry]

192 MH still, with a bunch of 216 coms gear and level 60 augments (no augments at all in ear/imps), and I did this for my opener. Unfortunately, that cuts off the 12.4k Discharge I had as my first hit.

 

shh infil is bad havent you read the last 6 pages.. im actually pretty excited to fully bis my shadow for the first time in awhile

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

shh infil is bad havent you read the last 6 pages.. im actually pretty excited to fully bis my shadow for the first time in awhile

 

My entire analysis is based on PvP, not PvE. Of course PvE will hit harder since it has a larger stat budget to work with. Doesn't change how it performs in PvP sadly.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

You're probably gearing wrong and comparing a 90 second CD compressed burst window to a 45 second CD compressed, poorly utilized burst window. If you're not dropping back to back to back 13-16k Discharges, followed by a 20k+ Maul and 20k more damage from Ball Lightning/Twin Surge/Surging Charge, yet you're hitting 16-19k Shocks, you're suffering from confirmation bias.

Gearing wrong? In Deception I'm in full min/maxed ranked gear, full power/critical rating. I did max hits with full crit augments and then with full versatile.

 

Max maul was 20k in a double relic window with auto crit set bonus. That happens once a minute. Every other maul outside of auto crit set bonus didn't even come close to 20k, but if you can show me a 20k maul OUTSIDE of the set bonus window that does 20k I'll gladly accept your claims that gearing wrong. I'm literally geared for maximum burst.

 

16k Discharges? Like I said, please show me these in full min maxed PvP gear because the best I got was 3 back to back 13k discharges max on another 2018 light armored target.

 

Edit: just saw that you claim that I've perhaps poorly utilized my burst window. To get max hits, I only used Discharge and maul on a light armored target with the sunder debuff and the discharge debuff and only used the abilities during a double relic proc. That is a maximum debuffed target while I had a double relic proc as well as a target with light armor.

 

I tested on a Sorc with no utilities and a Hatred sin with no utilities. I tested mainstat/power relic combo, mainstat/ crit relic combo, and power/crit relic combo.

 

I tested maul during auto crit window, double relic proc, maul proc.

 

I tested maul outside of auto crit window but still with double relic proc and a sundered target.

 

I tested power Augs, crit Augs, versatile Augs.

 

I tested full crit rating enhancements and implants earpiece for maximum burst.

 

I did all this of course so that my 4.0 guide is as optimal and thorough as possible. So please tell me where I went wrong in that gearing process and testing to not achieve these numbers that you claim to hit in PvP?

Edited October 23, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

As far as confirmation bias goes, a good portion of my games in season 6 were as Deception, I adore the spec and would LOVE to be proven 100% wrong. I have no reason to want Deception to be bad, in fact, I even want It to super cede Hatred.

 

I've purely posted based on what I've seen first hand, as a matter of fact, if you'd like to see it for yourself I have multiple past broadcasts on twitch of streamed Deception games in solo ranked from yesterday. Please point out to me one match where I hit anywhere close to a 16k discharge or a 20k maul more than once a minute. Lol

 

I want Deception to be viable, I play all 3 specs equally in Ranked and Deception is the most skill based (tanking is arguably harder from a mechanics standpoint).

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Lastly, before I go to bed, I want to clarify that these posts are in no ways attacks. I would honestly like to get to the bottom of this so that I can better inform others of how to gear for PvP.

 

If you believe that my testing process was flawed and that I was poorly optimized in gear then I would love constructive criticism on how to better perform so that we can collectively guide the sin community as a whole in the right direction for PvP gearing.

 

Once again, for reference:

 

Gear was all power mods, all adept enhancements, all 208 rating ranked gear.

 

Tests were done on sorcs and hatred sins with discharge and maul debuffs.

 

Max hits were only calculated on a fully debuffed target in light armor and only during double relic windows(tested all relic combinations) and only during procs (ex: duplicity procs, 3 stacks of static charge)

 

Maul max hit of 20k was only achieved during the set bonus proc. Outside of the set bonus, all other Mauls paled in comparison.

 

All discharge and maul max hits were achieved in the 2 set bonus increased damage for 15 seconds window.

 

Lastly, I practiced the max hits in both a stronghold and then in a Warzone (8 man ops group premade to force preseason pops) to account for bolster. Bolster appears to be broken for level 65s though.

 

Most of this is documented on my stream and mosh's stream as we were testing damage profiles.

 

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Magira]

however with double the health pools

 

The factor is 1.7. Not 2. I hope your other numbers are not just inaccurate.

[Evolixe]

192 MH still, with a bunch of 216 coms gear and level 60 augments (no augments at all in ear/imps), and I did this for my opener. Unfortunately, that cuts off the 12.4k Discharge I had as my first hit.

 

I don't see how you can think that is good burst when you know what Snipers and PT's can do. And it's not PvP.

[Aelanis]

Gearing wrong? In Deception I'm in full min/maxed ranked gear, full power/critical rating. I did max hits with full crit augments and then with full versatile.

 

Max maul was 20k in a double relic window with auto crit set bonus. That happens once a minute. Every other maul outside of auto crit set bonus didn't even come close to 20k, but if you can show me a 20k maul OUTSIDE of the set bonus window that does 20k I'll gladly accept your claims that gearing wrong. I'm literally geared for maximum burst.

 

16k Discharges? Like I said, please show me these in full min maxed PvP gear because the best I got was 3 back to back 13k discharges max on another 2018 light armored target.

 

Edit: just saw that you claim that I've perhaps poorly utilized my burst window. To get max hits, I only used Discharge and maul on a light armored target with the sunder debuff and the discharge debuff and only used the abilities during a double relic proc. That is a maximum debuffed target while I had a double relic proc as well as a target with light armor.

 

I tested on a Sorc with no utilities and a Hatred sin with no utilities. I tested mainstat/power relic combo, mainstat/ crit relic combo, and power/crit relic combo.

 

I tested maul during auto crit window, double relic proc, maul proc.

 

I tested maul outside of auto crit window but still with double relic proc and a sundered target.

 

I tested power Augs, crit Augs, versatile Augs.

 

I tested full crit rating enhancements and implants earpiece for maximum burst.

 

I did all this of course so that my 4.0 guide is as optimal and thorough as possible. So please tell me where I went wrong in that gearing process and testing to not achieve these numbers that you claim to hit in PvP?

 

Discharge does internal damage - armor rating has nothing to do with how hard you hit. You'll hit an AP PT just as hard as you'll hit a Hatred Assassin with it.

 

Those Discharges should be possible. Let me know what your stats look like on your top-tier PvP saber and I can give you your theoretical maximum, pre cooldowns, on a target with no extra I/E DR.

 

As for your Maul window, you maximize it by ensuring 4 things are active on your own buff bar before using it, and you cannot apply the second debuff that will increase the damage you see from Maul. Maul itself applies the armor sunder, and so you can use Maul based only on your own buff bar. You need all of:

 

1. The autocrit buff - this gives +100% critical percent boost, which is huge with the new change. Without it, you won't hit nearly as hard.
   
2. Relic proc A
   
3. and Relic proc B - I haven't done the math yet for which yields the highest burst, but I'm willing to bet it's going to be FR + SA again, though DV will probably make your Maul hit harder during the auto-crit, but I haven't done that math, because the FR/SA combo is still best for sustained DPS (almost certainly).
   
4. Exploitive Strikes - +5% crit chance turns into another 5% damage during an auto-crit. Don't discount the small things, and it should be easy to set up, you just have to pull a Force crit, with, say, a Recklessness Discharge.
   

 

Two other things that can help you pull higher numbers are the I/E and Melee damage debuffs being present on the target. Playing with an Anni Marauder gives you both, but playing with a Warrior and an Operative/Virulence Sniper/IO Merc will get you the same results. In fact, Deception and Anni Mara complement each other perfectly: neither benefit from a debuff that the two combined don't provide. It's an extra 7% damage on Discharge and 5% on Maul that you might be discounting. Every little bit helps.

 

Also, I'm not saying you were gearing wrong, but that it was a possibility, and usually the thing most people do wrong.

[Aetideus]

As far as confirmation bias goes, a good portion of my games in season 6 were as Deception, I adore the spec and would LOVE to be proven 100% wrong. I have no reason to want Deception to be bad, in fact, I even want It to super cede Hatred.

 

I've purely posted based on what I've seen first hand, as a matter of fact, if you'd like to see it for yourself I have multiple past broadcasts on twitch of streamed Deception games in solo ranked from yesterday. Please point out to me one match where I hit anywhere close to a 16k discharge or a 20k maul more than once a minute. Lol

 

I want Deception to be viable, I play all 3 specs equally in Ranked and Deception is the most skill based (tanking is arguably harder from a mechanics standpoint).

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the analogy of a ~17k maul on 71k hp is roughly the same as ~10k on 42k hp.

Probably Hatred opness is apparent (again).

[mmerry]

Discharge does internal damage - armor rating has nothing to do with how hard you hit. You'll hit an AP PT just as hard as you'll hit a Hatred Assassin with.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't inquisitors get extra baseline I/E DR?

 

I can shoot you a PM when I'm off work with PvP start budgets. Also I'm guessing that MH/OH/Bonus damage are bolstered up to ilvl 224, but I can't confirm that atm.

Edited October 23, 2015 by mmerry

[djcetra]

Low expertise targets don't count

 

I guess that counts you out then.

Edited October 23, 2015 by djcetra

[DarenLoot]

16k Discharges? Like I said, please show me these in full min maxed PvP gear because the best I got was 3 back to back 13k discharges max on another 2018 light armored target.

 

...Not that armor has anything to do with Discharge's dmg.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

The factor is 1.7. Not 2. I hope your other numbers are not just inaccurate.

 

I acknowledge that my BiS gear is 72k HP, obviously this isn't double but if you want to nitpick the words that I use to attempt to discredit the actual tests I've done in practice then okay.

 

Saying double is figurative speech in the same way that saying someone who won 990k is a millionaire, let's not detract from the main point please.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

...Not that armor has anything to do with Discharge's dmg.

 

Once again, I stated the conditions of target that I was hitting and the circumstances that were present. Does it matter if armor effects the damage if I still was unable to achieve a 16k discharge in a double relic proc window with gear fully optimized for maximum burst?

 

Like I've said before, I would love to be wrong so please show me a screenshot of yourself hitting a 16k discharge in PvP gear on another PvP geared player as well as the set up required to hit such numbers so that I can better inform others on how to collectively achieve the same results.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Discharge does internal damage - armor rating has nothing to do with how hard you hit. You'll hit an AP PT just as hard as you'll hit a Hatred Assassin with it.

 

Those Discharges should be possible. Let me know what your stats look like on your top-tier PvP saber and I can give you your theoretical maximum, pre cooldowns, on a target with no extra I/E DR.

 

As for your Maul window, you maximize it by ensuring 4 things are active on your own buff bar before using it, and you cannot apply the second debuff that will increase the damage you see from Maul. Maul itself applies the armor sunder, and so you can use Maul based only on your own buff bar. You need all of:

 

1. The autocrit buff - this gives +100% critical percent boost, which is huge with the new change. Without it, you won't hit nearly as hard.
   
2. Relic proc A
   
3. and Relic proc B - I haven't done the math yet for which yields the highest burst, but I'm willing to bet it's going to be FR + SA again, though DV will probably make your Maul hit harder during the auto-crit, but I haven't done that math, because the FR/SA combo is still best for sustained DPS (almost certainly).
   
4. Exploitive Strikes - +5% crit chance turns into another 5% damage during an auto-crit. Don't discount the small things, and it should be easy to set up, you just have to pull a Force crit, with, say, a Recklessness Discharge.
   

 

Two other things that can help you pull higher numbers are the I/E and Melee damage debuffs being present on the target. Playing with an Anni Marauder gives you both, but playing with a Warrior and an Operative/Virulence Sniper/IO Merc will get you the same results. In fact, Deception and Anni Mara complement each other perfectly: neither benefit from a debuff that the two combined don't provide. It's an extra 7% damage on Discharge and 5% on Maul that you might be discounting. Every little bit helps.

 

Also, I'm not saying you were gearing wrong, but that it was a possibility, and usually the thing most people do wrong.

 

As stated in my previous post, I go into detail about every buff that I had and did in fact meet all of these criteria. The only reason I didn't specifically mention exploitive strikes is because it's always up so I figured it would be pointless to mention a buff that's always active.

 

As far as the specs that debuff internal damage....let's be 100% honest here, when will you ever see any of those specs in a solo ranked environment? I can count on 1 hand actually how many times I've seen all of those specs combined in both season 4, 5, and 6 combined in a solo match. And this is across a pool of some 3k games.

 

I'm not saying that I will be impossible to max under those circumstances, I'm saying it's impractical. Deception's realistic max hits in a Ranked match (which once again was the whole basis of my opening argument) is not going to be affected by an Anni mara, Vir Sniper or IO merc, because those specs are extremely rare to find in that game mode. Due to this, I don't even include them in my analysis.

 

Either way, like I said earlier, I would love to be wrong in this case because I do actually enjoy Deception. But as of right now, compared to the double health pools (figuratively speaking for those of you nitpicking words) and the amount of burst that other classes are putting out, Deception is still in the same spot as pre 4.0, except maybe a bit worse since healing went up all across the board.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi