A non's force user would make sence in this new story?

[Cythereal]

I am arguing about ToR as well. Once more you are making the claim that somehow TOR follows different rules than other mediums (it doesn't and if it does provide proof. You made this claim.) and that within TOR these non-force sensitives can take on the most powerful force users that currently exist in TOR (your claim. Provide proof.) These are your claims.

 

You used Jun Seros as an example. I have proven that he was not reknown for his power but his tactical and strategic cunning as well as his knowledge of lightsaber techniques but there is zero evidence that Jun Seros is anywhere close to as powerful as the Emperor.

 

You're the one who has shown zero evidence on the hunter's ability to face something as powerful as the emperor's voice. I also pointed out that the Voice one shotted the entire jedi council. This happened IN TOR.

 

You're still just whining. Provide evidence that things in TOR do not happen exactly as presented and therefore KOTFE makes sense for non-Force-sensitives or go away.

 

Not that you will. You have never shown the slightest inclination to argue in good faith about the specifics relevant to this thread. So enjoy your whine-fest, there's clearly no point to arguing with someone who utterly refuses to be engaged on the actual point of contention.

[Rhyltran]

You're still just whining. Provide evidence that things in TOR do not happen exactly as presented and therefore KOTFE makes sense for non-Force-sensitives or go away.

 

Not that you will. You have never shown the slightest inclination to argue in good faith about the specifics relevant to this thread. So enjoy your whine-fest, there's clearly no point to arguing with someone who utterly refuses to be engaged on the actual point of contention.

 

Burden of proof. Ad Hominems will not make your argument any stronger. I never made the bolded claim. When you are capable of engaging in a debate without ignoring your opponent's points that you know you cannot compete against maybe this discussion will go somewhere. Until then I'll continue accepting your refusal to participate as a concession.

 

To make it more clear. I accept that the Hunter defeated the battlemaster of the Jedi order. I don't see how that proves in any capacity he is capable of taking on the most powerful Jedi/Sith.

 

Since you seem to not be well versed in the rules of debate nor the terminology (which I am basing on your misunderstanding on how burden of proof works) the bolded part of your post is known as a Strawman. Instead of trying to counter my points you instead keep pointing to an argument I have never made in order to try to distract people from the fact that you can't answer my questions. Never once have I claimed that the bounty hunter didn't defeat the battlemaster of the Jedi order. I have never claimed that the events in his story didn't take place in the manner that they did.

 

So can we now drop the ad hominems and the logical fallacies?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Codedrago]

I never claimed that's what really happened. You seem to misunderstand my position. My argument isn't that Non-Force sensitives can't defeat powerful force users. My argument is that they can't against the most powerful force sensitives. The difference between Jun Seros and the Voice of the Emperor is massive in comparison. Realize that just as the voice of the emperor (who isn't as strong as the real thing) Vitiate one shotted the entire jedi council along with the Knight. There is no evidence in the slightest where Jun Seros comes anywhere close to the power of some of the characters in the old republic.

 

The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the claim that non-force sensitives can take out the most powerful force sensitives. Not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. If I tell you I have leprechauns in my backyard but you tell me there is no such thing as leprechauns the burden of proof isn't on you to prove that there is no leprechauns in my backyard.

 

The ending of Ziost, you fight a possessed jedi who (Thouhg I;m not sure on this) is more powerful then the voice of the Emperor, at least the one the Jedi Knight faced. The trooper, smuggler, Bounty Hunter and Imperial agent can take this enemy down alone.

I don't know if it counts, but I thought it would be good to add it.

[tvaxquivax]

Thanks for all the responses =]

 

I started a sith warrior, played him LS up to level 39 and.. well, i'm staying with my agent. (it's funny how the sith warrior has an aswer like: -Ok i'll spare you, and he says: "all right i'll spare you, but get out of my sight before i think this over anf crush everybone you have!" 100 light side points gained!)

 

though the question remains, I'll just play with my star wars batman, if i can say so, and snipe away!

[ChaosIsGolden]

I'll just play with my star wars batman, if i can say so, and snipe away!

 

Ah I love the comparison.

[nimmerstil]

I gave you examples in that post.

 

Also Force Users are inherently superhuman, so they aren't limited to their speed like regular people.

 

But since you need an example

Thank you for your efforts,

 

Those are not armies, only small groups, fighting in typical uncoordinated villain style, there are no lightsabers simultaneously multiple blaster shots, they all follow each other up sequentially in time.

 

If at lightspeed they couldn't be at two place at the same time. In the movies you never see them deflecting thousands of blaster shots at the same time, do we, not even dozens. Never more then one, actually.

This was in reaction to a claim that Obi Wan "deflected blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once".

 

 

All against multiple blasters, not just 1.

Just a handful of opponents, not armies, and they're fighting uncoordinated, not firing at the same time. Notice the bounty hunter timing his flamethrower and all Mace Windu can do against it is jump down from the balcony. A well coordinated strike team, when prepared for the job, will tear a jedi apart.

 

So, do non force-users have a place in KotFE? Yes!

[nimmerstil]

If you fire two blasters simultaneously let's say one to my right shoulder and one at my left side I could raise the lightsaber and angle it so that they both hit the saber at the same time. One would be near the handle the other would be near the tip. You can angle them in a way to hit both at once. You can also move your body so that you'd evade one while blocking the other.

True, you can draw a straight line between any two points. If I were designing weapons to defeat Jedi I would give them multiple barrels and have them fire multiple 'bolts' at different places of the target. I'd design my weapons to be able to synchronize with another weapon held by the same shooter, or even with the weapons of a fellow soldier. But I admit, that'd be way too modern technology for such an archaic civilization like that in Star Wars, and, well, it would destroy lightsabers and the fantasy.

[Rhyltran]

True, you can draw a straight line between any two points. If I were designing weapons to defeat Jedi I would give them multiple barrels and have them fire multiple 'bolts' at different places of the target. I'd design my weapons to be able to synchronize with another weapon held by the same shooter, or even with the weapons of a fellow soldier. But I admit, that'd be way too modern technology for such an archaic civilization like that in Star Wars, and, well, it would destroy lightsabers and the fantasy.

 

That's how Droideka work which is why Wolf gave the example. Droideka have two barrels right next to each other so it fires like a fork. They have these on both "Hands" so you have to deflect "Fork like" shots. They were made this way because it was indeed difficult for many Jedi to block. I do agree more barrels in more odd places would work much better. For the strongest Sith/Jedi? It still won't matter. We have characters who have tanked turbo lasers. In fact Savage Oppress who isn't even "top tier" has tanked multiple blaster shots with his own body being hit in multiple places.

 

Mother Talzin has erected force barriers that regular blaster fire couldn't even penetrate. There's also what I said, angling your lightsaber to hit two at once. If a Jedi is sufficiently fast enough they can reach out and deflect several bolts, pull their arm back switch to another angle, and then even if they can't get it to hit head on with their saber smack another one away from the side. With enough speed these things are possible. There are "shotgun" spread style weapons that are used against Jedi in the EU. There's jedi that can deflect this. Pure speed.

[nimmerstil]

That's how Droideka work which is why Wolf gave the example. Droideka have two barrels right next to each other so it fires like a fork.

Have two (or more) of these droids sync there shots to be simultaneously and not aligned and it becomes physically impossible to block using one lightsaber.

 

Mother Talzin has erected force barriers that regular blaster fire couldn't even penetrate.

And Satele blocked a lightsaber with her hand. Individual Jedi and Sith have all kinds of unique plot-abilities, key words being unique and plot.

 

There's also what I said, angling your lightsaber to hit two at once.

That would be the limit for 'at once' - anything more would have to loose the 'at once' and

 

If a Jedi is sufficiently fast enough they can reach out and deflect several bolts,

Speed, distance travelled divided by the travel time. Keyword time, in zero time (that is when we speak of 'at once', 'simultaneously' and 'at the same time'), zero distance is travelled. I don't get why this is so hard to accept.

 

There are "shotgun" spread style weapons that are used against Jedi in the EU. There's jedi that can deflect this. Pure speed.

Note your keyword, EU. nuff said. If you take EU as reference all 4 non-force-user classes in SWToR are nonsense. There's a reason why Disney isn't even considering the EU for inclusion in their SW continuum.

[RinjiRenee]

Why are people so focused on whether or not non-force users can withstand an attack from a skilled jedi/sith? That's not the point of the four non-force-using classes. It's their influence upon the galaxy which makes them important, not their ... ability to dodge a force choke, or whatever.

[Rhyltran]

Have two (or more) of these droids sync there shots to be simultaneously and not aligned and it becomes physically impossible to block using one lightsaber.

 

And Satele blocked a lightsaber with her hand. Individual Jedi and Sith have all kinds of unique plot-abilities, key words being unique and plot.

 

That would be the limit for 'at once' - anything more would have to loose the 'at once' and

 

Speed, distance travelled divided by the travel time. Keyword time, in zero time (that is when we speak of 'at once', 'simultaneously' and 'at the same time'), zero distance is travelled. I don't get why this is so hard to accept.

 

Note your keyword, EU. nuff said. If you take EU as reference all 4 non-force-user classes in SWToR are nonsense. There's a reason why Disney isn't even considering the EU for inclusion in their SW continuum.

 

This game is EU. We have a guy who can drain entire planets of life. Exar Kun has multiple references and he's done many of the feats. Talzin's barrier is not plot device. She uses it in every fight she's been in and the blaster bolts simply get absorbed. In many different situations Savage gets shot but tanks them. (These are canon abilities.) Also it doesn't matter if they're done simultaneously. If their arms are moving faster than the shots being fired they can still swipe them out of the way before getting hit. This is possible if they are capable of moving their weapon faster than the eye can see. Which.. some force users are capable of. They've been described as moving in "Bullet time." or even faster.

 

You're right the four force using classes in SWTOR aren't tier 1. They're close to it but they're not vitiate level.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Wolfninjajedi]

This game is EU. We have a guy who can drain entire planets of life. Exar Kun has multiple references and he's done many of the feats. Talzin's barrier is not plot device. She uses it in every fight she's been in and the blaster bolts simply get absorbed. In many different situations Savage gets shot but tanks them. (These are canon abilities.) Also it doesn't matter if they're done simultaneously. If their arms are moving faster than the shots being fired they can still swipe them out of the way before getting hit. This is possible if they are capable of moving their weapon faster than the eye can see. Which.. some force users are capable of. They've been described as moving in "Bullet time." or even faster.

 

You're right the four force using classes in SWTOR aren't tier 1. They're close to it but they're not vitiate level.

 

Well logically every Force User should be able to block multiple blaster shots. At least trained Jedi/Sith, given that...even the regular Padawan is well trained even before becoming a Knight which is shown as Zett was blocking/deflecting multiple blaster shots from a squad of Clones.

 

Heck even Younglings are expected to Master Form 1, so already they are pretty much master swordsmen even before becoming a Padawan.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[nimmerstil]

Also it doesn't matter if they're done simultaneously. If their arms are moving faster than the shots being fired they can still swipe them out of the way before getting hit. This is possible if they are capable of moving their weapon faster than the eye can see.

I can't believe you're actually saying this. Two projectiles on dissimilar trajectories that collide with a target can not be intercepted by one object (lightsaber). It wouldn't just require the object to move faster then the eye could see, or in bullet time, it would require moving at infinite velocity.

[Rhyltran]

I can't believe you're actually saying this. Two projectiles on dissimilar trajectories that collide with a target can not be intercepted by one object (lightsaber). It wouldn't just require the object to move faster then the eye could see, or in bullet time, it would require moving at infinite velocity.

 

Let me put it another way. Are you saying if I fire a bunch of BB's at you. They're all traveling at the same speed at the same time. You can move in real time but these are moving slow motion. You're telling me you would not have the time to bat them out of the way? Note that these BB's are being fired from a spread. One is coming for your shoulder, another is coming for your stomach. Another your right and left side and another one at your head but once again. They're slow motion. You're seeing them in real time. You're moving in real time. They're moving in slow motion.

 

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you I do not see how it wouldn't be possible to deflect these attacks. To me it would seem fairly easy at such a speed to just swipe them out of the air.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Rhyltran

[ScarletBlaze]

My View.

 

Not every Jedi or Sith has the same abilities. Some that are primary healers have very limited saber skills as they only use the saber as a last resort. Those that are mainly trained in the force and not the saber would be the same and we have to remember relying on the force constantly will cause a drain on a sith or Jedi.

 

In addition most Jedi always rely on each other or even troopers for back-up they do not constantly take on armies by themselves.

 

Non-force users are the same they can rely on people backing them up.

 

The problem is most people tend to want to put all Jedi and all sith up on a pedestal and think they are invincible and they are not. Even in Phantom Menace Qui-Gon mentions that Jedi die. It's easy to downgrade another class because they are not this or not that but the truth most of the time you need each other to actually overcome the obstacles.

[Wolfninjajedi]

My View.

 

Not every Jedi or Sith has the same abilities. Some that are primary healers have very limited saber skills as they only use the saber as a last resort. Those that are mainly trained in the force and not the saber would be the same and we have to remember relying on the force constantly will cause a drain on a sith or Jedi.

 

In addition most Jedi always rely on each other or even troopers for back-up they do not constantly take on armies by themselves.

 

Non-force users are the same they can rely on people backing them up.

 

The problem is most people tend to want to put all Jedi and all sith up on a pedestal and think they are invincible and they are not. Even in Phantom Menace Qui-Gon mentions that Jedi die. It's easy to downgrade another class because they are not this or not that but the truth most of the time you need each other to actually overcome the obstacles.

 

Well they all have the same inherent abilities, Precog and being able to perform feats no ordinary person can do.

 

But yes you're right, some specialize in combat, others in manipulation/healing and so on and thus their martial skill might not be the best.

 

However even the latter of those guys, wouldn't have any trouble in taking out at minimum 2 guys facing them down with blasters(or more depending on what skills they focus on), because even if their martial skill might not be their main focus, they can still be deadly combatants to the average person.

 

An example that comes to mind is Coleman Trebor(Legends version) who was able to slaughter battalions of battle droids and Geo warriors, yet he was more a diplomat than a warrior.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[SithKoriandr]

My View.

 

Not every Jedi or Sith has the same abilities. Some that are primary healers have very limited saber skills as they only use the saber as a last resort. Those that are mainly trained in the force and not the saber would be the same and we have to remember relying on the force constantly will cause a drain on a sith or Jedi.

 

In addition most Jedi always rely on each other or even troopers for back-up they do not constantly take on armies by themselves.

 

Non-force users are the same they can rely on people backing them up.

 

The problem is most people tend to want to put all Jedi and all sith up on a pedestal and think they are invincible and they are not. Even in Phantom Menace Qui-Gon mentions that Jedi die. It's easy to downgrade another class because they are not this or not that but the truth most of the time you need each other to actually overcome the obstacles.

 

True, but then Qui Gon would stand a chance versus Darth Vader. Han Solo, not so much.

 

That's why people ask the OP question. Smuggler, based on Han Solo, basically met up with Vader and got beat with a snap of his fingers.

 

Can other factors play a role? Yes. But when faced against a powerful force user, all you really have is bravado for the non force users. "Yeah! Sure! I can beat anyone!" "This is a powerful force user, not some run of the mill force user. You might want to keep that ego in check." "Hey! Don't ruin my buzz!"

 

Knight and Warrior are the top dogs in term of combat in the NPC eyes. Even if Consular and Inquisitor prove they are too, NPCs will still look at those two PCs and be all in awe. Of course, it's told many times just how powerful the Warrior, Knight and Consular are. Inquisitor is told this by Zash and comes to prove it, but the SI's starting station in life leaves others not believing it.

 

Agent has NPCs and the game mechanics outright tell you, "YOU CAN'T BEAT UP POWERFUL FORCE USERS!" Their first battle doesn't even give you the CHOICE to just attack and kill him.

[Karkais]

A force user with a light saber tend to (when of enough ability) to take on armies. That is what the movies show.

 

No, they don't. They may escape from armies, hold 'm off for a second or two or otherwise outsmart them, but they only take on small groups.

 

Luke went to Death star II alone.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Karkais

[BrianDavion]

Luke went to Death star II alone.

 

not to confront an army.

[nimmerstil]

Let me put it another way. Are you saying if I fire a bunch of BB's at you. They're all traveling at the same speed at the same time.

 

No, I am not saying one guy firing 10 shots in row. I am saying that if multiple blasters fire at the same time at a Jedi there's no way he can move fast enough to deflect them all. What do you think 'simultaneously' and 'at the same time' actually mean?

Edited October 8, 2015 by nimmerstil

[Inzuher]

What do they do against Sith capable of force crush? There's certain things that just can't be dodged. Same with force drain. There's powers some force users can just aim their hand in their direction and that's it. The top tier force users have never been slain in star wars in a one on one fight with a non force user. You're right there's people who can beat masters in a one on one fight as well as Darths but Valkorion level is a massive stretch when he's drained worlds.

 

Yeah it's just not going to happen. It'll be quite the immersion break to see the non-force sensitives go up against Valkorion, Arkann and the like. But whatever, I'll be playing Sith regardless

[RTCBrad]

I don't understand how a non force user would fit in either honestly.

 

Valkorian can drain planets and has in the past just decided to "purge" the entire dark council. He is far beyond the average Sith or Jedi that a non force user would hope to defeat. This is where the story should vary the non force users shouldn't be going after the Emperor, this is where having class story is crucial. Trooper could go after enemy infrastructure and bases etc, agents and smugglers would go after key political or military leaders even counter espionage . While leaving the Emperor to the force classes since they are the only ones that would believably be involved.

 

Perfect example Empire Strikes Back - Han attacks Vader, Han loses in 2 seconds flat. That's exactly what would happen if the BH/Agent/Troop/Smugg tried to attack the Emperor.

[nimmerstil]

This is where the story should vary the non force users shouldn't be going after the Emperor, this is where having class story is crucial. Trooper could go after enemy infrastructure and bases etc, agents and smugglers would go after key political or military leaders even counter espionage . While leaving the Emperor to the force classes since they are the only ones that would believably be involved.

 

You don't know yet how, or even if, Valkorian will be defeated. Palpatine was killed by being thrown down shaft - no Force required.

[Rhyltran]

No, I am not saying one guy firing 10 shots in row. I am saying that if multiple blasters fire at the same time at a Jedi there's no way he can move fast enough to deflect them all. What do you think 'simultaneously' and 'at the same time' actually mean?

 

I am talking about that. It doesn't matter. Take the BB Scenario. I have 10 guys firing BB's at you. They're all coming at you at the same time. All guys fire on the mark of three. Tell me if the BB's are moving in slow motion and you are capable of moving in real time why you would be incapable of swatting the BB's out of your way? You won't answer this question and it makes no sense if you were capable of moving that fast why you'd be incapable of doing so.

 

Let me put it in another light. We have 5 friends who altogether have ten hands. They all stretch out their hands starting at a distance of 20 feet. They slowly walk towards you, again, in slow motion. Their hands outstretched and their pointer finger of doom at the ready. You're standing there. Waiting for them to get in range and you have a baseball bat, a stick, a toy sword, it doesn't matter. Are you saying you would be incapable, even if they're all moving at the same time, and all their fingers would arrive at the same time to simply move your stick and smack their fingers once they're in range?

 

Remember the rules of the game. You can move at your normal speed. You can swing as fast or as hard as you can. They're moving at slow-mo speed.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Inzuher]

I am talking about that. It doesn't matter. Take the BB Scenario. I have 10 guys firing BB's at you. They're all coming at you at the same time. All guys fire on the mark of three. Tell me if the BB's are moving in slow motion and you are capable of moving in real time why you would be incapable of swatting the BB's out of your way? You won't answer this question and it makes no sense if you were capable of moving that fast why you'd be incapable of doing so.

 

Let me put it in another light. We have 5 friends who altogether have ten hands. They all stretch out their hands starting at a distance of 20 feet. They slowly walk towards you, again, in slow motion. Their hands outstretched and their pointer finger of doom at the ready. You're standing there. Waiting for them to get in range and you have a baseball bat, a stick, a toy sword, it doesn't matter. Are you saying you would be incapable, even if they're all moving at the same time, and all their fingers would arrive at the same time to simply move your stick and smack their fingers once they're in range?

 

Remember the rules of the game. You can move at your normal speed. You can swing as fast or as hard as you can. They're moving at slow-mo speed.

 

 

Force Jump... Or if you're powerful enough Force Blast. Also with a Force User's keen precognition and speed enhancements this situation is unlikely to ever transpire.