Preface: This issue isn't entirely unique for Theron. Vanilla comps (before KOTFE/KOTET of course) were forced to be your ally no matter what, and you could do some really despicable things... Mako and DS Bounty Hunter, for example. KOTFE and KOTET do obviously add more consequence than before, but just saying... Doesn't make entirely too much sense for Theron to betray a mostly LS Outlander; on the Peacekeeper path, he seems really positive about the Alliance, so it doesn't fit the "marked by anger, hope eroding" bill that Tyth spelled out. The way I see it -- if Theron WAS the traitor, his character that we know would be a complete 100% lie. He gave up his career to see this Alliance work, because he thinks it's the only way to save the galaxy at this point. He seems completely appalled by the superweapons/god droids and what they are capable of... would be weird if he actually made himself the instrument to help wake them up. It's been my interpretation that Theron has remained with the Alliance because he believes he can do the most good there, and he's also obviously deeply disappointed in Republic leadership. He was let down by Malcom in a huge way, just when the two of them were creating a relationship with one another. Theron staying with the Alliance who is led by a tyrant might be some issue of pride or guilt with him. He has proven himself stubborn once set upon his path, even to disastrous results (see: Ziost). But yeah, poor Theron's been through a lot. I saw a playthrough with Empress Sith Warrior who sides with Empire AND goes back to romancing Quinn at Iokath just after kissing Theron and it's really THE DARKEST TIMELINE for him... I want to give him all the hugs. If he's not the traitor here (and I really don't think he is, or Lana for that matter), I wonder if BW would have a "critical" moment with him eventually where he finally puts his foot down.

The Scions could have been there the entire time and we wouldn't have been able to tell. They're so few in number now that they could hide their movements, or perhaps their force ability has cloaked them as well. As for their involvement with the Alliance, how close they have or haven't been may not even matter, considering they 1) can see glimpses of the future and could have known when precisely to arrive at Iokath to get things started, 2) have told the Outlander that they're allied with them and that they would arrive precisely when it was "their time to die" (so said Heskal, just after he betrayed you to Arcann ). They also have the means to know what's on Iokath already because they've been there before -- with Valkorion, way back in the past, and they've been evoking the names of the old gods ever since. Like I said, even if the person who sabotaged the throne isn't exactly a part of the Scions that you meet with, it seems pretty likely the Scions are in the very least involved in making sure the Alliance, Republic, and Empire arrived at the same time to start waking these "gods" up.

Yeah, Tyth says we were betrayed to become "fuel" to the gods... doesn't fit a Republic vs Empire motive for Theron or Lana at all. Whoever started this conflict on Iokath wants to see everyone wiped out. Both Theron and Lana have sacrificed their careers to help form the Alliance and save the galaxy from Valkorion and the Eternal Empire, and both of them make cases to spare/help their respective homes. If they were the traitors that Tyth is talking about, they would have been hiding it since day one, and that just seems super out of the blue and way unlikely (and worse writing than "well the Scions just seem too likely and boring!") My guess is that the Scions at least have something to do with it, since they still refer to the droids as gods. The way they hold the droids in such high reverence and are bothered when you call them superweapons (and not gods) just seems extremely suspicious. Also how convenient is it that they've managed to reappear on Iokath JUST when the talks about betrayal have started? It's entirely possible that a well-known NPC or something might be in league with the Scions since they've been gone for a while, however.

I don't think Lana or Theron are the types to co-rule (Lana hates titles, both of them prefer to work behind the scenes), but... I would like for Lana/Theron/Koth romances to have talk about marriage at least, like the vanilla romances did.

You can accuse Heskal of betraying you to Arcann in Chapter 8... So your definition of betrayal might be different from what may be in the game. The Scions have told the PC that they are there to aid the Alliance, so their act of actually sabotaging the throne and using everyone as sacrifice would technically be a betrayal. And again, Heskal told the Outlander to their face that the Scions were allied with the Alliance and that they would reappear when needed. And here they are, and they're being super cagey... All the motives are there, it seems pretty obvious...

Ah! XD A small world after all! Well I'm happy I inspire you! <3

Here on my Tumblr! You can also search the OC: Veselko and Sketches tag.

I know folks are like "but the Scions don't even matter that much" but if that were the case, why would the story be bringing them back? It's too big of a coincidence that there seems to be a "traitor" and suddenly the Scions reappear on Iokath, completely uninvited. But Heskal foretold that they would arrive "when it was their time to die" ... Arcann also says that Heskal believed his fate was to betray you, but then Heskal said it was necessary. So we already know the Scions have it in them to "betray" the Outlander because of this prophecy they have.

Neat! I have some art and fic on my blog, if you want a link?

So do the Scions...

Another Theron and Male Agent fan? Yesss. <3

If you play LS, Theron seems perfectly content with the Alliance. I have gotten zero impression with him being unhappy with the Alliance. In fact, he sounds absolutely hopeful that they're doing the right thing. He left the Republic and his biological family behind because he felt like they weren't doing the right thing, and if the Commander isn't a complete tyrant, Theron shows absolutely NO SIGNS of being unhappy. He smiles about the Eternal Alliance, he writes e-mails about his progress, in the beginning of the Iokath mission he happily reports to the Peacekeeper Commander that more and more planets that suffered under Vaylin are joining the Alliance. So his betrayal would ONLY make sense if the Commander is more of a tyrant, which is not true of all players. Everyone in the Alliance is a suspect, Lana and Theron both tell you this. Theron has not been the only one who has suffered. The reason why I say it's the Scions is because Heskal literally states to you that they are allied with you back in Chapter 8 of KOTFE whether you like it or not, and said that they would arrive when it was their time to die. They still refer to these droids as their gods, so they have a death wish to have these gods revived -- and they needed the Commander to sit on the throne and wake them up. They've been nearly decimated by Vaylin and Arcann, and their Immortal Emperor is dead and the Outlander did not bring them their shiny glorious apocalypse future that they foresaw, so they have all reason to be angry and hopeless. Does anyone not remember how furious Heskal was when we saw him first? And how desperate they wanted revenge against Arcann for what he did? And the fact that they keep bringing up the names of the gods... Just seems to all fall into place.

Lormen was a side character at best, not an entire plot point for a major character to betray you out of the complete blue. Theron has literally never ever mentioned Teff'ith. He'd have no reason to mention Lormen, which makes it all an easter egg really. There's already better theories than "Theron has good reason to betray the Outlander over a close friend that has never been properly introduced and will appear out of nowhere as a major plot hook." The exposition that Theron would have to make in revealing himself would be ridiculous. "You never knew I had a friend named Teff'ith but she is in danger and you have to believe me she is worth way more than all the work I did quitting the Republic to help the Alliance fight the Eternal Empire and potentially putting trillions of innocent people in danger because these robot gods need them as a sacrifice." Like... what??? I think some people are forgetting that Tyth already told us why we were lured to Iokath and betrayed -- not simply because of the Empire vs Republic conflict, but because they want to offer us as SACRIFICE PRIME to the gods.

They wouldn't make a really big plot point in the game dependent on knowledge from the book. The fact that they've never introduced Teff'ith in the game besides a throwaway e-mail that only Republic characters can get during SOR tells me they've basically forgotten about her. I mean, how lame would that be? Theron saying "I am the traitor because of my dear friend who you've never met and I've never talked about before is in danger!" Uh... okay. Also, Theron luring Malcom to Iokath to kill him because he's a danger to the galaxy, and then to make a case to side with the Republic doesn't make any sense. You're giving his obvious feelings about his father little credit. He cries out for him after Jace is zapped by the throne and he's practically crying after Jace dies. Lana also sends you an e-mail saying that she's worried about him after Jace's death, because of how he looks like he's been getting less sleep. He's obviously torn up about it. Seems like they wouldn't make Lana or Theron the traitor because their motives would have to be heavily dependent on choices the player character makes. Valkorion can offer you reasons why they would betray you right before you sit on the Eternal Throne (Lana being a former member of Sith Intelligence, Theron being the son of two Republic heroes), but these motives wouldn't fit the current situation because this traitor wants ALL the sides dead for the sake of the gods. Neither of them knew much about Iokath until you arrived there and were subsequently kicked out, so them having access to schematics to give to three factions seems highly unlikely. Anyway my theory is on the Scions. Heskal said they were still allied with you and would arrive for you again when it was their time to die, they have no stake in saving the lives of any Republic or Imperial character (or Zakuulan lives, OR their own), they ally with you whether you like it or not, they knew about Iokath before anyone because they had been there with Valkorion and have been spreading their religion to the rest of Zakuul, they still refer to the superweapon droids as their gods, they're probably still hurting and angry after being nearly wiped out by Arcann and hunted tirelessly by Vaylin (they are very few in number now), and their M.O. seems to be screwing you over to fulfill what they believe is destiny. They could be lying to you simply to keep you from knowing their motives, because who would willingly offer themselves as sacrifice? What I found to be a bit of a Chekov's gun was when Empress Acina dies on the throne. She tells you that she's seen the future where everyone dies and she says it's glorious. Heck, even Jace sounds fanatical when he's given a vision by the superweapon. Heskal sounded practically fanatic when he died as well, saying that there would a lot of death and it would be glorious. These gods and their power seem able to enthrall people. It's entirely possible that the Scions have also used you to unleash their gods because Valkorion made you strong enough to sit on the throne. Remember when the Outlander tries to sit on the eternal throne? Lots of zapping, probably could have nearly killed them, except that Valkorion said he prepared you to sit on the throne. What happened when Acina and Jace tried to sit on a throne? ZAP. Dead. Heck, when the traitor activates the droids while you're sitting on the throne, you get another big zap and can even express fear about being killed while sitting on it. So the Scions, since they knew you had the spirit of Valkorion in you at one time, knew you were able to withstand the power required. Then they also lured the Republic and Empire there to spark war, more death and destruction, and the sacrifices that the Gods demand. They wiped out trillions of lives before being deactivated long ago, possibly created to want nothing but to destroy. Death and sacrifice is their fuel. I also wonder if they're a little upset with the Outlander for having defeated Valkorion... Heskal still refers to Valkorion as "Our Immortal Emperor" and he ceases to be hostile with you once he realizes Valkorion is in your mind. The people of Zakuul loved Valkorion, and the Scions were his loyal followers. Perhaps they did not realize Valkorion would be defeated in your mind, and their "hope" is eroding...

My money's on the Scions. Aside from the "mysterious figure" wearing scion robes, the Scions do say they are allied with you at some point because DESTINY. I think you receive a mail from them after taking the throne in KOTET? Heskal also tells you before he dies that the rest of the Scions would appear for you when it was their time to die. People talk about Theron's supposed shifty looks during Iokath -- have you done the cut scene with Oramis, before the Tyth fight? She and the other Scions are basically shifty the entire time. Theron as the traitor would make sense if the game forces you to make evil choices, but thus far in my LS playthrough he's been nothing but supportive and willing to help out the Alliance. Lana being the traitor in my LS playthroughs would make more sense, because I've basically destroyed her idea for a better Empire in the future. But since this betrayal seems to have taken place AFTER KOTET, it makes little sense that either Lana or Theron would be the traitor because there's nothing in KOTFE/KOTET to support their reasons for betrayal. If either of them turned out to be the traitor, I feel like it would just be for shock value rather than common sense. In fact, the idea that if you accuse either of them and the other quickly jumps to their defense and offers their own name up would seem to point to them not being the traitor -- or at least, not a willing one. The reason why Theron probably doesn't want to monitor everyone is because the fact that you could risk creating more friction with your own allies this way (and perhaps create more traitors in the long run). Beywan is absolutely furious about being monitored, for example. They still continue to interrogate the inner circle and other Alliance personnel (Lana and Theron also submit themselves first for interrogation). It just may not be entirely good to tell your Alliance that you don't trust any of them, especially after all they've given up to help the Alliance. This is probably why it's a dark side choice, of course. Also, if Lana and Theron were guilty, why would they be sending you updates on how they're narrowing the suspects down? Why would a traitor bring any attention to themselves by narrowing down the number of suspects? Again, if either of them turn out to be a traitor, it'd just be for shock value rather than anything that makes sense. Tyth says the traitor is marked by anger, hope eroding, etc. The Scions were nearly wiped out because of Arcann, and if you go back to Chapter 6 in KOTFE, Heskal is practically seething about how the Scions have been treated because of Arcann. He also says right before he dies that our character will take the throne, and that lots of people will die, and that the future is "glorious" or whatever. This also sounds a lot like what Empress Acina says when she dies, after being shown a glimpse of the gods and the superweapon. These Gods seem to enthrall their followers in ways. The Scions knew about Iokath already, because Valkorion took them there in the past. It would make sense that they'd have access to the intel that was sent to all the factions. They just needed you on the throne so they could wake them all up (because the prophecy deemed it necessary), and then they would have the fleets of the factions to complete their vision of the gods destroying everything. It is also entirely possible, I suppose, that the Scions have also lured a traitor closer to you and have gotten their cooperation. I do like the Satele Shan theory -- it's canon that she's wandered from the light side. She sounded completely despondent when she talked about failing the Republic and the Jedi Order, so that fits the anger, hope eroding bit. We also know that force users in her blood line are notorious for being misguided and tricked, and causing galaxy-wide slaughter...

I'd say that Lana and Theron have both been fairly popular, compared to many of the other LIs (perhaps ever so slightly less popular than Vette, Kira, and Quinn). It could be that the fandom circles I'm in enjoy the fact that they're same-sex romance options, but as a fan content creator I consistently see more folks liking and sharing my Theron and Lana artworks and etc. than other stuff I've done for some of the vanilla companions. I wouldn't worry entirely too much about them getting less content right now. Even when the vanilla companions slowly come back, they won't be new romance options. BW seems very content to keep Lana and Theron as the Outlander's right and left hands for the time being, and since neither of them can be banished, or leave, or be otherwise killed (FOR NOW *suspicious eyes*) they can keep slipping in romance-specific lines and scenes and such (which Theron I think got the bounty of in KOTET, compared to Lana). Koth romancers, on the other hand... Anyway, Theron I know for sure has been a balm for those Smuggler and Knight players who really don't like Corso or Doc...

The Alliance needs to have an on-site therapist for the amount of issues Theron has. Poor guy.

Lana's issues with the Republic stem with her issues with democracy and the lack of centralized leadership (she literally says "democracy is overrated" on Ziost). While she believes that people need to cooperate to survive and succeed (which is a very strange sentiment to have in the Empire), she ultimately also believes that the strong must rule, which is why it is so easy for her to support the Outlander. She tires of the Sith Empire's constant in-fighting and hopes for more unifying leadership, but while she has these issues, she wouldn't really get along with the Republic or Jedi at all. Theron has been let down by the Republic and Jedi repeatedly, both personally and professionally. At his core, I think he wants to believe the Republic can and will do better (much like how Lana believes in a better Empire), but when the Republic cowered to Arcann and the Eternal Fleet, he'd had the last straw and went to try and help Lana and the Outlander repeat their past successes with fixing the galaxy. He certainly wasn't going to be able to help with the Republic leadership being in shambles, and Saresh probably still had grudges against him. I think he'll still lean towards cooperating with the Republic, but will ultimately remain with the Eternal Alliance for the time being, believing he can do more to help the galaxy there. And yeah, I feel it's a bit different for a romanced Theron. He's been consistently let down over and over by people who should be his family because of their sense of duty to the Republic, and here he's found someone who cares for him in return, regardless of their former allegiances. He's fallen in love pretty hard and wants to do everything in his power to keep this person in his life, because he can't imagine being alone again. Holy Abandonment Issues, Batman. Of course, I romance him with Agent, who still remembers a certain someone breaking up with him on Yavin 4 because of DUTIES or whatever, and he may have abandonment issues of his own... But Theron seems to have learned from his mistake. Maybe he was acting a lot like his mom in that moment...? Hee.

For all the "the story doesn't make sense for non-Force Users" problems, Agent was my favorite playthrough. While I acknowledge my bias leans heavily to Agent anyway, I thought it highly amusing that they were lifted out of the obscurity and anonymity in the shadows by the Force and destiny. It's fairly ironic, considering that Agent's lack of Force sensitivity was part of what caused them to lose their identity in the first place (Imperial Intelligence and its top ranks are amongst the highest positions a non-Force sensitive in the Sith Empire can achieve, but it's all cloaked in secret and they can never truly rise above Sith ranks). There are disconnects in the narrative, mostly when it comes to things like "How the hell does everyone know who Cipher Nine is anyway," but I found myself able to ignore them for the most part. I find myself ignoring the occasional plot holes in my enjoyment of Star Wars, anyhow. There's also quite a few neat flavorings the Agent playthrough gets. Chasing the conspiracy of Valkorion fits in with Agent's theme fairly well, to begin with. You get both Kaliyo and SCORPIO featured as main characters, and Agent-specific lines in regards to both. In KOTET you get kind of a neat parallel to Vaylin in regards to the conditioning. And then, at the very end, Agent finally lifts themselves out of obscurity, defeating the Emperor who Agent's oppressors in the Sith Empire worshiped and modeled themselves after, and rising to a seat of power that would have been otherwise out of their reach. I chose the LS choice at this point, but there is some appeal of the DS choice perhaps... I also kind of enjoy watching Agent continue to have a terrible life. They need a vacation more than anyone else.

I think a lot of what you're concerned about can't realistically be addressed in a game like SWTOR. Not all DSV or LSV players all play the same characters (ie, baby-eating puppy kickers), because LS/DS is a gameplay mechanic. Some folks are only maxed out on LS/DS because of diplomacy missions. So Theron dismissing a romance simply because a character is flagged as being maxed out DS would probably be needlessly punishing. It would also be very, very challenging to have Theron check for all the past plot flags (like during the class story, where the majority of the worst DS choices are) before a romance can be flagged. Koth is not entirely LS either, but he leaves/breaks up with the Outlander depending on how the Outlander treats the Zakuulans. As of right now, in the bulk of the actual romance with Theron (I'm not counting SOR), there isn't a lot of KICK THE PUPPY or EAT ALL THE BABIES-type DS choices, or Theron's not present during some of the particularly cruel ones. Theron is immune/resistant to force manipulation, yes. But emotional manipulation (including lying) has nothing to do with the application of the Force. Now, it will be interesting to see how he will react to: We'll have to see if that is at all reactive.

I would hold off on saying that Theron operates purely on the "light side" part of the spectrum. First tip off -- he's a spy. He has shown a willingness to resort to covert/subverting methods in order to achieve his goals. While he might have good intentions, he is not above lying and getting his hands dirty. Spies by their very job description are, at best, morally ambiguous. They have to be. Also recall that there are a couple times that Theron has "dark side" type solutions to problems. Example: Rakata Prime. His option is to quickly kill a large number of cyborgs. Regardless of the cyborgs' intentions, it's still murder. One could argue that Lana's option, to spare and ultimately use the cyborgs to strengthen the Empire, is more evil, but Theron hardly flinches at the idea of killing the cyborgs because it has to be done for the greater good, in his mind ("do unto others before they do unto us"). He also is a fan of taking advantage of chaos and sniping Imperial ships on Yavin 4 during the informal truce. Not exactly what I'd call morally sound. Certainly not Jedi-like. We must also remember that while he does employ some of the skills he learned while living with Jedi,, he also rejects a number of their edicts. In the short story with Jace Malcom, Theron tells him that he can't be like his mother because he doesn't think reason outweighs feeling. Though he's grown up and stood on his own feet all his life, this unattached aspect about the Jedi (more specifically, Satele) is something that he's rejected. He's critical of the Republic because of their lack of response and harboring the corruption that allowed Saresh to come into power. While he's hardly defected at this point, or become evil, Theron is a very passionate and feeling-oriented person behind his steely exterior, and in the Star Wars universe, this is very indicative of dark side tendencies. Anyway. Back the topic in discussion. My opinion about Theron being romanced by a character who is DS level V? Yeah, there is a certain meta-ish wrongness to it, because I don't know if Theron would ever be in love with a truly cruel and vicious person, but a few posts here make excellent points. Perhaps it is possible that Theron could be corrupted? Maybe. Isn't it just as unlikely for a mostly LS Jedi to romance a mostly DS Lana? Yes. My thought immediately goes, "Well, if you're that DS, wouldn't you be bored by someone like Theron, because he generally is a chaotic good-leaning character?" Or on the flip side, "Hey, as a LS character, don't you find Lana a little too evil?" But hey, not really my business what people find interesting, and the game leaves enough space for a lot of headcanon. In my own little world, it's my Agent who finds himself becoming a "better" person because of Theron, for example. And again, like someone else pointed out, him not rejecting a DS character may also be for the extra meta reason that he's the only other male romance option (AND male same-sex romance option) besides Koth in KOTFE/KOTET. I'll be very interested to see how he treats a romanced Outlander if they make more Pro-Empire choices in the future. I did have a laugh about the rodian kiss thing. Was that in a book? Certainly puts a new spin on the line in SOR for Imp romances where Theron thought that kissing Imps would make him spontaneously implode. Maybe he is more of a thrill-seeker than I give him credit for.

I've played both. Both voices are great for the most part -- have their ups and downs with certain scenes. Bertie Carvel has really improved over time, I really really like his delivery in KOTFE moreso than Jo Wyatt's. He is a bit more consistent with pronunciations and deliveries. As far as romances go, Kaliyo's romance is probably the better of the two male Agent romances in the vanilla game simply because it's more involved, but I enjoyed Vector's romance more as a whole. For SOR and KOTFE, though... my favorite romance in the game has been Spy vs Spy, Theron Shan/Imperial Agent. But I'm a sucker for cross-faction romance stories...

I'm just curious -- are there other MMOs where you can be in full, top-end PvE gear in 3 hours? That seems kind of broken (and pointless) to me.

If you want to play a game that is reactive for sociopaths, go play a Bethesda game or something. Anyway, what's your obsession with slicing faces off? Surely an evil Sith is more creative than that.

Sounds like a bunch of people overestimating their player characters to me. This has always been an issue with people who play Bioware games -- the moment they feel like their character should be omnipotent and omniscient and they aren't then they lose their minds. Maybe this narrative isn't for you. That's fine. But I'd rather see PCs not have an easy time of things. KOTFE made the PC lose their power base and they're having to start from scratch -- the "weakness" you guys are perceiving was intentional. The Outlander is still on their way back up. Go play Dragon Age or Mass Effect and come back and talk about how your PCs are supposed to know and do everything right.