A non's force user would make sence in this new story?

[Rhyltran]

Simple....plot, it works well in comics/novels and moves, so why not games too?

 

Agreed. I'm only arguing against him because he seems to think non-force users, without plot shield, could actually take on certain top tier force users. To be fair in canon it never happens.

[nimmerstil]

Simple....plot, it works well in comics/novels and moves, so why not games too?

 

At some point to much suspension is required and the plot crumbles into absurdity.

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

 

Republic side, the Smuggler beats down a Sith Lord, Jedi Knight, or both on Tatooine

 

That's hardly an achievement considering how much of a freaking mess that fight was.

[Wolfninjajedi]

If at lightspeed they couldn't be at two place at the same time. In the movies you never see them deflecting thousands of blaster shots at the same time, do we, not even dozens. Never more then one, actually. We could step through them, frame by frame ....

 

Obi and Jinn against the Droidekas?

 

Mace against the SBDs?

 

Zett against that squad of Clones?

 

Mundi against the squad of Clones?

 

There are showings of deflecting multiple blaster shots from multiple blasters.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Agreed. I'm only arguing against him because he seems to think non-force users, without plot shield, could actually take on certain top tier force users. To be fair in canon it never happens.

 

Quite right.

[Cythereal]

There's a big gap between some master and someone like Vitiate. Look, it takes a lot of suspension of disbelief there. Valkorion can drain entire worlds dry. How does a non-force sensitives avoid "Being drained dry." standing in front of a sith lord who has mastered drain life and death field? Or how about force crush? Or force kill? What do you do as a non-force sensitive against a force user who can move faster than you can see, kill you by simply pointing a finger at you, etc?

 

The answer is by fighting along another force user who can hold said person off and prevent you from being one shotted. Truth is non-force users can only do so much. A non force user in a one on one fight would never be able to beat Nihilus, Exar Kun, etc. You do realize there's force users who have tanked capital ships turbolasers? Lol.

 

You'll forgive me if I decline to indulge Star Wars' more anime-ish flights of fantasy. Vitiate can eat worlds. A Force-using PC is exactly as vulnerable as one who doesn't have the Force, and everything else is a child playing cops and robbers shouting "I have a force field, your bullets can't hurt me! I have a laser gun, you're all dead!"

 

Unless you seriously plan to beg Bioware to retcon out the existence of fully half the player characters in the game.

[Codedrago]

There's a big gap between some master and someone like Vitiate. Look, it takes a lot of suspension of disbelief there. Valkorion can drain entire worlds dry. How does a non-force sensitives avoid "Being drained dry." standing in front of a sith lord who has mastered drain life and death field? Or how about force crush? Or force kill? What do you do as a non-force sensitive against a force user who can move faster than you can see, kill you by simply pointing a finger at you, etc?

 

The answer is by fighting along another force user who can hold said person off and prevent you from being one shotted. Truth is non-force users can only do so much. A non force user in a one on one fight would never be able to beat Nihilus, Exar Kun, etc. You do realize there's force users who have tanked capital ships turbolasers? Lol.

 

The force users won't be able to take him on either. THey'll most likely be enlisting the help of a load of people to weaken Valkoran to a near mortal state to kill him.

[DudeinFlames]

It doesn't make sense for any of the Force Users in this game to take on Valkorion, let alone the non Force Sensitives. Best to actually see the story first.

[Jake_Chambers]

If at lightspeed they couldn't be at two place at the same time. In the movies you never see them deflecting thousands of blaster shots at the same time, do we, not even dozens. Never more then one, actually. We could step through them, frame by frame ....

 

I mispoke, with the speed they display they appear to be in two places at once.

This passage is from the RotS novel, that's cannon right?

"An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...

 

Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides."

 

Lots of sports where the untrained eye will not see objects move where a trained eye will. Doesn't need superhuman skills.

 

Like what, baseball? Tennis? I don't think even a normal person would have issues seeing the ball in most cases, but hitting it is another story. Also, two entirely different situations, if Anakin can't even see if, it's gotta be a lot faster than anything in pro sports. Anakin is a trained eye, so to speak, his speed is greater than that of other Jedi like Obi-Wan and probably Mace Windu (when not amped).

 

It all becomes a bit easier to handle story and plot-wise when you bring these powers back to what they were in the movies.

 

It also makes it difficult for characters to reach their full potential, it's easier to describe something in text than to show in a movie. Special effects even at their current point still have issues with certain effects looking good. If anything the movies go to show that Jedi and Sith became weaker, that the greatest Sith (Palpatine) and the 2nd most power Jedi (Yoda) were kinda overrated.

[Sappharan]

You'll forgive me if I decline to indulge Star Wars' more anime-ish flights of fantasy. Vitiate can eat worlds. A Force-using PC is exactly as vulnerable as one who doesn't have the Force, and everything else is a child playing cops and robbers shouting "I have a force field, your bullets can't hurt me! I have a laser gun, you're all dead!"

 

Unless you seriously plan to beg Bioware to retcon out the existence of fully half the player characters in the game.

 

Bioware had to make the mundane classes roughly the same (and sadly sometimes more than in pvp) so as not to alienate a player base. It's absurd to think that someone who is not force sensitive would be even remotely on equal footing to a Jedi or Sith of even middling power no matter how much hardware brought into the equation.

 

In SWTOR we're expected to accept that either the "force-users" are very weak and/or that mundane characters are superhuman, giving them rough parity in power enabling them to accomplish the same goals--particularly during ROtHC, SOR and Ziost. My JK, who is one of the most powerful (stated in game) force sensitives seen in decades is on the same power level as all the non-force sensitives? It is a bit much for me. I endeavor to accept that Bioware does it because players who do not like Jedi/Sith would be disaffected and not wish to play.

 

It has always, always irritated me that certain enemies are made to be elite or even champion when they are clearly not force sensitive and I am playing either the JK or Inquisitor or Consular. It's a huge contrivance. I have a trooper and an agent as well.

 

 

I notice their class stories have very, very few force sensitive (maybe none in the trooper story, it has been literally years) entities to confront and my agent had to talk Jadus down. She did not fight him.

 

 

I would be much more willing to accept it if all classes were found to be force sensitive and some were simply untrained.

 

 

Nadia springs to mind as an example.

 

[Jake_Chambers]

There's a big gap between some master and someone like Vitiate. Look, it takes a lot of suspension of disbelief there. Valkorion can drain entire worlds dry. How does a non-force sensitives avoid "Being drained dry." standing in front of a sith lord who has mastered drain life and death field? Or how about force crush? Or force kill? What do you do as a non-force sensitive against a force user who can move faster than you can see, kill you by simply pointing a finger at you, etc?

 

The only issue I have with Vitate's drain and planet death powers are, when he drained his home world he;

 

1) Didn't do it alone, granted he dominated the mind of the thousands of Sith, but the ritual took 10 days and needed the others to help.

 

2) I don't recall, but on Ziost did he have any prep needed there like before? If so, it's kinda like the Death Star, mainly just something used to provoke fear. If he is challenged could he focus enough to perform the ritual?

[Cythereal]

Bioware had to make the mundane classes roughly the same (and sadly sometimes more than in pvp) so as not to alienate a player base. It's absurd to think that someone who is not force sensitive would be even remotely on equal footing to a Jedi or Sith of even middling power no matter how much hardware brought into the equation.

 

In SWTOR we're expected to accept that either the "force-users" are very weak and/or that mundane characters are superhuman, giving them rough parity in power enabling them to accomplish the same goals--particularly during ROtHC, SOR and Ziost. My JK, who is one of the most powerful (stated in game) force sensitives seen in decades is on the same power level as all the non-force sensitives? It is a bit much for me. I endeavor to accept that Bioware does it because players who do not like Jedi/Sith would be disaffected and not wish to play.

 

It has always, always irritated me that certain enemies are made to be elite or even champion when they are clearly not force sensitive and I am playing either the JK or Inquisitor or Consular. It's a huge contrivance. I have a trooper and an agent as well.

 

And yet, Bioware has chosen to portray force-sensitives in this game as human (as it were), not gods incarnate. You claim that Jedi/Sith PCs should always beat non-force-users, and that Bioware chose not to do so to avoid alienating players. You are correct, but for the wrong reasons.

 

In TOR's interpretation of Star Wars, force-users are not as all-powerful as other works have interpreted them to be.

 

Keep being irritated. I'll keep gunning down Sith Lords and Jedi Masters. Quoth a certain assassin who's killed more than his fair share of delusional mutants, they're really not as good as they say they are.

[Sappharan]

I'll keep gunning down Sith Lords and Jedi Masters. Quoth a certain assassin who's killed more than his fair share of delusional mutants, they're really not as good as they say they are.

 

Easy to do in a game that limits force sensitives for the sake of "balance". In SW canon force sensitives can train and hone their abilities and become immensely powerful--and this is in addition to whatever inherent talents they bring going into the training. Games and stories come from the imagination so arguing it is a bit frivolous, but given SW canon, I'd wager you have a much more active imagination than most.

[Azareya]

I'm not sure but isn't there a fight between Boba Fett vs Vader in Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire, where Boba had opening to kill Vader while he was distracted but didn't, it was in the last pages of the comic if I remember, probably not canon but still worth mentioning.

 

And you shouldn't think about just if the classes can go toe-to-toe with the Emperor, i'm sure most of them can mess up his plans one way or another without having to engage him directly (at least at first and alone) and we know that non-force users have the ability to do so.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Azareya

[Cythereal]

Easy to do in a game that limits force sensitives for the sake of "balance". In SW canon force sensitives can train and hone their abilities and become immensely powerful--and this is in addition to whatever inherent talents they bring going into the training. Games and stories come from the imagination so arguing it is a bit frivolous, but given SW canon, I'd wager you have a much more active imagination than most.

 

Key problem for you: this isn't "SW canon" whatever that means these days, and I'm only concerned with the story and gameplay of this game when considering this game's story. This game's story and gameplay strongly support exceptionally talented non-forcey individuals being able to fight and kill exceptionally talented forcey individuals in a fair fight, and so it is logical and sensible that in KOTFE this will continue to be so.

 

It only does not make sense if you derive your mental image of force mutants versus normal people from material other than this game, material this game is not beholden to. As such, I recommend you adjust your expectations of TOR's story and gameplay regarding force mutants to the story and gameplay TOR has already established regarding those mutants.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm not sure but isn't there a fight between Boba Fett vs Vader in Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire, where Boba had opening to kill Vader while he was distracted but didn't, it was in the last pages of the comic if I remember, probably not canon but still worth mentioning.

 

 

1. It's non-canon now.

 

2. That....'fight' wasn't really a fight, Boba merely just ran away, the only reason he even survived was because he had something Vader wanted.

 

3. That bit about him killing Vader is completely moronic and just not true, as there's literally nothing that Boba could do against Vader. So really that panel is just straight hogwash, because then it would be ignoring that Vader is a tank and has withstood extreme amounts of damage and ignoring his high sensory abilities making anything that Boba would do rather moot, along with his other powers.

 

Of course the comic already ignored Vader's sense abilities in one panel where Boba got a shot that shouldn't have happened, but whatever, Vader pretty much schooled Boba and really wasn't even trying.

 

If Boba has to shoot Vader in the back just to win while distracted, that should tell you how much of a low chance he actually has straight up....not that a pitiful blaster shot would affect Vader as he has taken far worse.

 

But even then refer back to other points of Vader's power.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Azareya]

why..

 

Did you really have to crush my dreams,

I'm just gonna pretend I didn't read this

 

thanks for the info good to know it's non-canon.

But yea I didn't really believe it even at that time, but I wanted to, idm non-force users not being able to kill force users, I like it when they give them a challenge.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Azareya

[Wolfninjajedi]

Did you really have to crush my dreams,

I'm just gonna pretend I didn't read this

 

Yea I didn't really believe it even at that time, but I wanted to, idm non-force users not being able to kill force users, I like it when they give them a challenge.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2396105-dsa.jpg

 

 

But really, Non-Force Users can give Force Users a fight...but this is just depending on what they have gear wise, what their skills are, if they have prep and who they are facing.

 

Even then it's still difficult for them, because The Force is something that's difficult to defend against. Jedi would be much easier than Dark Jedi or Sith because the former has morals and wouldn't try to kill them, unless having to.

 

Even then Jedi wouldn't opt for just straight crushing their opponent.

 

The latter....well, they have no qualms about doing that.

 

Although it becomes easier, if there's multiple skillful individuals laying down overwhelming firepower and the like.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[nimmerstil]

There are showings of deflecting multiple blaster shots from multiple blasters.

I think not, but you have something to prove so go ahead and skip to the sections showing multiple simultaneous reflects.

 

Not sure why this is even debated, objects can not be in different places, or point in multiple directions at the same time. Then there's a limit to how fast someone can move an object they're holding without breaking any bones.

[Celise]

skywalker and kenobi were outwitted by hondo ohnaka once when their drink was poisoned and ended up becoming bargaining chips, the same with darth tyranus when his lightsaber was pocketed off him without him knowing about. its very possible to outmanouver a force user. you just need to blindside them with one thing and be smart about the other thing, the thing you really want.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think not, but you have something to prove so go ahead and skip to the sections showing multiple simultaneous reflects.

 

Not sure why this is even debated, objects can not be in different places, or point in multiple directions at the same time. Then there's a limit to how fast someone can move an object they're holding without breaking any bones.

 

I gave you examples in that post.

 

Also Force Users are inherently superhuman, so they aren't limited to their speed like regular people.

 

But since you need an example

 

Here

 

Also

 

This

 

and

 

This

 

All against multiple blasters, not just 1.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aeneas_Falco]

If you play through SoR with a Jedi Knight and have the Knight express disbelief that the Emperor isn't dead, Darth Marr will note that the Jedi Knight wounded the Emperor's spirit greater than any other person, but then adds that no single person can truly kill the Emperor.

 

The last half of Darth Marr's statement may foreshadow a group effort in the Emperor's eventual (and permanent) death. If so the non-force users would either be part of a group of other players that canonically includes force users, or would have NPC allies, like Lana Beniko or Satele, similar to the Revan fight. In both scenarios a non-force user getting the kill shot would be a lot more believable.

[Rhyltran]

I think not, but you have something to prove so go ahead and skip to the sections showing multiple simultaneous reflects.

 

Not sure why this is even debated, objects can not be in different places, or point in multiple directions at the same time. Then there's a limit to how fast someone can move an object they're holding without breaking any bones.

 

If you fire two blasters simultaneously let's say one to my right shoulder and one at my left side I could raise the lightsaber and angle it so that they both hit the saber at the same time. One would be near the handle the other would be near the tip. You can angle them in a way to hit both at once. You can also move your body so that you'd evade one while blocking the other.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Wolfninjajedi]

If you fire two blasters simultaneously let's say one to my right shoulder and one at my left side I could raise the lightsaber and angle it so that they both hit the saber at the same time. One would be near the handle the other would be near the tip. You can angle them in a way to hit both at once. You can also move your body so that you'd evade one while blocking the other.

 

It's fine, I've already given examples of Force Users deflecting multiple blaster shots with their blade just from the movies.

[Cythereal]

It's fine, I've already given examples of Force Users deflecting multiple blaster shots with their blade just from the movies.

 

And yet somehow the Bounty Hunter for one canonically shoots, stabs, sets on fire, and explodes quite the track list of powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. The Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, the finest lightsaber duelist of the Order and master of combat, is among them.

 

This entire thread is nothing but whining about how half the PCs in this game should be nothing but cannon fodder for the other half and top out their stories around Act 1 because clearly they can't fight skilled Force-users despite the game consistently demonstrating otherwise.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal