Level synch = death of SWTOR

[TravelersWay]

Can you give me an example an MMO that has the option? Not sarcasm, this is the only MMO I play atm and haven't kept up with the news of other games in development and whatnot. It might help to have something to compare it to.

 

The two that come to mind right now are:

City of Heroes(closed down now) and Rift - both are optional systems AFAIK. Guild Wars 2 has a mandatory system - which this one appears to mimic. I know others were mentioned but the names escape me for the moment. I play a ton of MMOs here and there, and to be honest, each one of them could have a variation of the system, but since I don't make use of it, am completely unaware of it - which means the option works well.

Edited October 3, 2015 by TravelersWay

[kodrac]

Not really. Just have the missions tied to the down leveling debuff. Lose the debuff, lose the missions. The only exploitable part is if they "F" up coding but since they have something similar in bolster and GSI, it shouldnt be this over the top task.

 

You're armchair developing again.

[ZavienUK]

As far as I know the Bolster in Warzones and Tactical flashpoints are not toggles and the feature you are asking for is a toggle. I'm also pretty sure none of the current bolsters (not even Tact Fp) changes your actual level (assuming 'Combat level' is not the same as level since it's named 'Combat level' and not just level).

 

I used those as an example of stats being adjusted by differing amounts for the people in the same area (people are different level)

I then notice you completely ignored the more important example of makeb where you have both people with adjusted stats and those without their stats adjusted in the same area AND it's toggle-able.

 

Nice cherry picking your points to counter there.

But the point is why are we even having this discussion/argument. It's for Bioware to implement not us, I'm more interested in people justifying why they would or wouldn't be against this being a toggle, rather than if it can actually be done.

[Quraswren]

You're armchair developing again.

Why not? You see something faulty in that logic?

 

SNIP... I guess you only played the game because it had lvls then, lol.

For me it was one of the reasons.

I don't play GW2 because of the level scaling and some events in FF14 I dont do because of the same thing but worse.

I like leveling and the sense it gives vs lower level mobs. It's been enjoyable for quite a long time now.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Quraswren

[kodrac]

Why not? You something something faulty in it that logic?

 

The armchair developing is what I something something in that logic.

[Kiesu]

Use the same formula they use for mobs that spawn on who hits them. Make it spawn on the highest level that ever hits them once pulled though. Or they spawn to the highest level of the group. Would stop a low level pulling and a high level killing. Multiple ways to solve that issue.

Not really. Just stack lowbies in a group, pull the boss, and let the max-lvs outside of group kill them while lowbis loot. Oh dear I found an exploit already....

Hell, add in that mechanic for the boss fight that if someone else tries to grief you and not in your group, let it auto kill them as well. Most of that is already in the game in some capacity..

So that every time people pull guard doids on yavin for funzies or other boss mobs, and someone passes by and gets hit by their aoe and get in combat they just die... Yea that sounds like a great way to grief people. Ima try that

Edited October 3, 2015 by Kiesu

[Elracor]

Not really. Just have the missions tied to the down leveling debuff. Lose the debuff, lose the missions. The only exploitable part is if they "F" up coding but since they have something similar in bolster and GSI, it shouldnt be this over the top task.

 

That assumes they can make such a connection between buff and mission. It also creates the need for having 2 sets of missions, one for syncers and one for nonsyncers.

 

Use the same formula they use for mobs that spawn on who hits them. Make it spawn on the highest level that ever hits them once pulled though.

 

That doesn't make any sense? Say a lvl 28 pulls it, it's lvl 28. A lvl 65 hits it, you then want it to change level after being pulled?

 

Or they spawn to the highest level of the group. Would stop a low level pulling and a high level killing. Multiple ways to solve that issue.

 

The high level can just be outside the group. It also doesn't solve the issue for players logging highlvl toons because they're not good enough to do it on-level toons, there's been a few stating this issue in this thread.

 

Hell, add in that mechanic for the boss fight that if someone else tries to grief you and not in your group, let it auto kill them as well. Most of that is already in the game in some capacity.

 

The grief mechanic works both ways though and will hurt people who are legitimately trying to help.

[Quraswren]

The armchair developing is what I something something in that logic.

so you got nothing against what I said and can't really refute it other than you don't know what people do for a living so they can't possibly have a clue on development of software.

 

WOW, not sure you could be more wrong.

[robertthebard]

I've no idea if your getting me mixed if with somebody or just completely misunderstanding, I have no vision of doom.

 

I cannot speak for anybody else, and can't comment if people were freaking out about this (and freaking out about things that aren't happening like losing abilities) before it was even announced because I wasn't aware of that (I rarely came to the forums before this was announced). I came here and started voicing my opinion after it was announced in the stream, and based on what was announced in the stream (and confirmed in the blog post)

 

Since the stream was broadcast I have seen a great number of arguments both for and against this system as it was presented. Even if people were worrying about losing abilities before the stream, just because that concern has been relieved, it doesn't nullify all the other arguments that still apply.

 

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here:

 

You instructed me to go back and read the thread, even though you haven't read the thread to know if there's anything in there that I hadn't seen already? To be clear, the reason this thread is all mashed together is because there were several of them clogging the first page. This is people freaking out about level sync, because they don't want it, or it's not optional.

 

Then we get the stream, and then the blog, and then people are picking and choosing what they want to use from the blog because they don't think anyone will bother to read the whole thing, so they can claim it says whatever they want, or as was done in this very thread, quote one line out of context, aka cherry picking, to carry on their cry of DOOM. It doesn't matter, in the context of the dialog if it was your post or not. You quoted me claiming that nobody is cherry picking anything. Since you claim you can't speak for anyone else, how can you speak for the people that are cherry picking lines out of context to prove how "doomed" the game is? If you hadn't done it, why did you feel the need to defend it?

 

Is it some kind of "Us vs Them" thing? Ironically, I haven't come down firmly one way or the other about this, because I'd prefer to see it in action for myself, and I will, when it goes live. I'll make a decision based on my own hands on experience. What I have consistently done is point and laugh at the doomsayers.

[Max_Killjoy]

That assumes they can make such a connection between buff and mission. It also creates the need for having 2 sets of missions, one for syncers and one for nonsyncers.

 

 

That doesn't make any sense? Say a lvl 28 pulls it, it's lvl 28. A lvl 65 hits it, you then want it to change level after being pulled?

 

 

The high level can just be outside the group. It also doesn't solve the issue for players logging highlvl toons because they're not good enough to do it on-level toons, there's been a few stating this issue in this thread.

 

 

The grief mechanic works both ways though and will hurt people who are legitimately trying to help.

 

 

So send people who WANT to be levelsynced to one instance of the planet, and the people who DON'T want to be levelsynced to a separate instance of the planet.

 

We already have that -- ever notice what happens when the planet you're on has too many people, and you end up with that list of Planet(1), Planet(2), etc, at the lower right corner of your map?

 

What would be wrong with splitting things up that way?

 

But Killjoy, someone says, everyone is going to LOVE levelsync, you'd end up on a planet all alone. To which I say, "Good, I've lost count of the number of times I've wanted a solo instance of some world, to avoid the jerks, the poachers, and the rest of the scum and villains".

Edited October 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Mon-El]

Well would you look at that, people upset about a portion of the cartel changes and what do they do? That's right, they change it. Confirmation about who BW really cares about.

[Elracor]

I used those as an example of stats being adjusted by differing amounts for the people in the same area (people are different level)

I then notice you completely ignored the more important example of makeb where you have both people with adjusted stats and those without their stats adjusted in the same area AND it's toggle-able.

 

People are different level but their 'Combat level' is the same. We can't yet assume the same will be the case for levelsync.

 

I didn't ignore the Makeb one, I stated that "none of the bolsters", which includes the Makeb one, changes your level. The Makeb one doesn't even change your 'Combat Level'.

 

Nice cherry picking your points to counter there.

But the point is why are we even having this discussion/argument. It's for Bioware to implement not us, I'm more interested in people justifying why they would or wouldn't be against this being a toggle, rather than if it can actually be done.

 

But that's the thing. The main reason IMO not to implement it would be rooted into Bioware ability to implement it. There are not many reasons against getting stuff like addtional Operations, Warzones or features like Cross server except Biowares ability to implement them.

If Bioware can implement it in a fast and smart way, sure go ahead.

If it require massive changes to the game, can cause issues like the ones I've described and will take a year to implement then I don't think it's worthwhile.

[Quraswren]

That assumes they can make such a connection between buff and mission. It also creates the need for having 2 sets of missions, one for syncers and one for nonsyncers.

We have class quests and planet quests, GSI and whatever and there all marked easily enough. No reason to think BW is that incapable.

That doesn't make any sense? Say a lvl 28 pulls it, it's lvl 28. A lvl 65 hits it, you then want it to change level after being pulled?

No at that point depending on how you would have it to be handled, I'd have the Voss boss type buff. If you are not in the pulling group, you auto DIE. No griefing or cheesing allowed.

The high level can just be outside the group. It also doesn't solve the issue for players logging highlvl toons because they're not good enough to do it on-level toons, there's been a few stating this issue in this thread.

Thats where that voss buff comes in again thats already in the game. Kills them outright in their not in the group.

The grief mechanic works both ways though and will hurt people who are legitimately trying to help.

The griefing mechanic once again for voss is very effective to stop griefing. Why BW doesn't use it more is beyond me.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Quraswren

[kodrac]

so you got nothing against what I said and can't really refute it other than you don't know what people do for a living so they can't possibly have a clue on development of software.

 

WOW, not sure you could be more wrong.

 

*sigh* simmer down hot pants. The armchair developing introduces a lot of unknown variables. Saying things like that should be easy to do is assuming a lot. Exploiting and its prevention is a very big deal to these game developers/studios - like livelihood important. If you don't think they don't need to theorycraft or plan around that then you're way out of touch.

[Elracor]

So send people who WANT to be levelsynced to one instance of the planet, and the people who DON'T want to be levelsynced to a separate instance of the planet.

 

We already have that -- ever notice what happens when the planet you're on has too many people, and you end up with that list of Planet(1), Planet(2), etc, at the lower right corner of your map?

 

What would be wrong with splitting things up that way?

 

And that assumes said Instances can be locked depending on the Sync buff and that having potentially twice as many instances won't cause server issues.

[robertthebard]

The reason I've not made many posts on these forums is because actually getting involved in most "discussions" is a waste of time and bandwidth. That doesn't mean I don't read these forums often and form opinions.

 

There are two rather passionate groups that post a great deal. In the first group you have people that don't like some changes, and intelligently or otherwise, make negative comments. Despite the merit of this groups argument(s) (for better or worse), the first group meets opposition from the second group, which can best be described as Apologists or fanbois.

 

The second group wouldn't care if BioWare served up a steaming pile of s**t on a broken plate. Group Two would gobble it down, demand seconds, all the while deriding and insulting ANYONE that has something bad to say about their beloved SWTOR and BioWare.

 

Here's what I do know: While the majority of people playing the game don't post on the forums, there are issues that transcend this little oasis of subjects and responses. Of those people, the people I talk to in voice chat, raid channels, and from my friend list, the vast majority does NOT like the forced level-sync.

 

The reasons are varied, from how it may affect RP events, doing daily missions, helping guildies that just want to face-roll content, to (probably legitimate) fears that BioWare will really screw it up.

 

There was no cry on these forums (or in discussions in-game) for level-sync before 4.0, or 3.0. Now, all of a sudden, it's coming, it's mandatory and BioWare hasn't explained why.

 

In fact, MOST of the game mechanics are still a mystery, with my best guesstimate for the arrival of the "blog post" where we get all the information will be the Oct. 19th patch notes.

 

So let's review. Level-sync wasn't requested previously, wasn't a "Problem" really, but now for some mysterious reason, it's getting stuck in the game.

 

The people that don't like it have valid reasons for asking why it must be mandatory. (Full Disclosure: If BioWare offered a purchased perk to toggle level-sync off, I and many people I know would buy it, no problem).

 

The people that play the apologist role for BioWare, telling people to quit (and ALWAYS asking for their "stuff"), to "get over yourself" in no way invalidates the concerns of other players. By the way - telling people to quit? Be careful what you wish for.

 

But to round this post up, I do believe the majority of players are against mandatory level-sync. But the majority of players won't post here in the first place because of the apologists and fanbois that always reply in the same fashion, and even more telling, the dearth of response(s) from BioWare. Case in point - the huge number of threads complaining about the level sync issue, and BioWare's sole response was to post that they were merging all the threads, and tell people to play nice.

 

So, maybe there's a few good reasons why people don't post on these forums.

 

I'm fairly active on the DDO boards, when I'm playing DDO. The devs over there pointed out that only about 15% of the playerbase even reads the forums. This is based on who's logging in and who isn't, and comparing to who's playing and who isn't. I say this to say this:

 

According to the OP, if I give him a generous 50% of the forum goers agreeing with him, 7.5% of the playerbase is the majority. I'm not sure what that other 92.5% is, but I'm not so old and forgetful that I sincerely believe that 7.5% is greater than 92.5%. Check it out, I didn't have to White Knight, or fanboy, or lower myself to attempting to demean anyone that may disagree because I have facts to work with. Facts are required if you're going to say "The majority", not hyperbole, and not this TL;DR troll of anyone that disagrees with you.

[Quraswren]

*sigh* simmer down hot pants. The armchair developing introduces a lot of unknown variables. Saying things like that should be easy to do is assuming a lot. Exploiting and its prevention is a very big deal to these game developers/studios - like livelihood important. If you don't think they don't need to theorycraft or plan around that then you're way out of touch.

 

Thats why I used examples of things already in game. Things they can build off of and should know. Things they have experience with Things that should be easier for them because they have something similar already in play.

 

I think they needed to theory-craft and plan around optional down leveling.

 

SNIP...

If it require massive changes to the game, can cause issues like the ones I've described and will take a year to implement then I don't think it's worthwhile.

 

But a massive change to the game that takes what is most likely a year so they can force down leveling is somehow worthwhile to implement as a forced mechanic on everyone but making it optional if it takes a while isn't worthwhile?

 

Tell me I misunderstood you.

[Max_Killjoy]

And that assumes said Instances can be locked depending on the Sync buff and that having potentially twice as many instances won't cause server issues.

 

It's less an assumption, and more giving them the benefit of the doubt as to their basic competence.

[Elracor]

We have class quests and planet quests, GSI and whatever and there all marked easily enough. No reason to think BW is that incapable.

 

No feel fine to think they can do it. It's just not proof that they can. My point is rather that if they could do it without causing issues why wouldn't they?

 

No at that point depending on how you would have it to be handled, I'd have the Voss boss type buff. If you are not in the pulling group, you auto DIE. No griefing or cheesing allowed.

 

Thats where that voss buff comes in again thats already in the game. Kills them outright in their not in the group.

 

The griefing mechanic once again for voss is very effective to stop griefing. Why BW doesn't use it more is beyond me.

 

It's effective because it is 1-2 mobs. We don't know how well it works if pretty much all heroic/planetary mobs have this buff. It also discourages actually helping.

 

A non-synced lvl 65 could pull an important group and just permatank them, if the actually-playing groups hit the mobs they instadie.

[Elracor]

But a massive change to the game that takes what is most likely a year so they can force down leveling is somehow worthwhile to implement as a forced mechanic on everyone but making it optional if it takes a while isn't worthwhile?

 

Tell me I misunderstood you.

 

Well you don't really know how much time they used on this feature.

That said, I still prefer level sync over not level sync even if it's mandatory. I get others don't prefer this but I do.

 

It's less an assumption, and more giving them the benefit of the doubt as to their basic competence.

 

And that assumes this feature can be done with "basic competence"...

Edited October 3, 2015 by MFollin

[Max_Killjoy]

And that assumes this feature can be done with "basic competence"...

 

Different world/planet/map instances are in the game. The ability to split people out into different instances of the same content is in the game. The ability to pick different destinations from a terminal or shuttle door or elevator door or "exit area" function is in the game. The ability to choose which mode you do (solo, story, hard, nightmare, tactical, whatever in each particular case) when you start a Flashpoint is already in the game.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[ZavienUK]

Leaving Commanders and Outpost guards at high level will just reverse the issue, forcing people who do want to level sync to not do so.

 

Eh? Your just being obtuse. People like level sync because it makes content relevant. If commanders were intended as high level content, nobody is going to have a problem turning off level sync to do that content.

 

Making them unattackable by non-syncers still doesn't solve the problem of Sync being optional, you're forced to use Sync to take part in this part of the game.

 

Your still being being obtuse. We've already accepted there would be compromise in making it optional. Not wanting level sync has never been about being able to kill some commanders, I never saw that from anybody as a reason for not wanting level sync. I suggest a compromise solution which would allow the level sync to be optional, and you throw it back as 'well that wouldn't be optional then would it'. Fine let me kill the commanders then while level sync is turned off, I won't offer that compromise. Oh but then that would be open to abuse so we can't do that either. So in other words I can't win with you whatever I say.

 

At this point I'm beyond debating each point with you. I get it, you want this system. I don't. We disagree. Can we just leave it at that.

 

Well if people don't want to believe the Devs I'm not sure what they can do about it.

Oh my god. I said I wouldn't just automatically believe what they said if they didn't explain it. Do you take everything you are told at face value? Your nieve if you do.

 

 

As I see it, you're basically assuming they're maliciously keeping you from getting the features you want which is IMO unreasonable. I'm sure the Devs want to please as many players as possible inside the boundaries they're given by management.

 

Oh I get it now, your actually just trolling me now. Well played. You can't actually believe what you typed.

What are earth are you on about. At no point have I suggested or in any way believe the developers are doing this maliciously, that is an utterly absurd suggestion. This was only ever about providing feedback to say is there way this could be made optional

 

Your in favour of this system, I'm not. We disagree. I really really really don't want to be endlessly debating this issue. Lets just agree we disagree and leave it at that.

[Faelandaea]

So send people who WANT to be levelsynced to one instance of the planet, and the people who DON'T want to be levelsynced to a separate instance of the planet.

 

If a system like THIS were implemented, that would be the ONLY way I'd support making any option for sync. maybe make it to where if you have sync option off, you are forced into a particular instance of the planet where no one is sync'd. Also keep the low level players in sync'd instances, so no one is worried about getting grief.

 

This is the first time someone against required sync has come up with a solution that could even be considered in place of it.

[ZavienUK]

Best Decisions EVER, and the game will finally be rejuvenated because of it. No point in staying in the old ways of typical MMO mechanics, time to push ahead and make SWTOR get with the times, which it will do, starting with level sync!

 

Indeed it brings a lot to the game. Would there be an issue with making it optional though?

[Warrgames]

Belittling me doesn't help you here. You're still making assumptions about the Level sync without having any grounds for it.

 

Not making assumptions. I know exactly how it is done. Algorithm is the only way that you can program it. No I don't have their algorithm sitting in front of me but I can write it and I can figure out exactly what the algorithm is after launch with a few reference points. I learned how to do this from Calc.

 

Again, you assume the boss can do this "seeing the buff" and affect the rewards without having grounds for it. You don't know how the engine works. You don't know how many (if any) changes need to be implemented (and tested) for this to actually work. That's why this is Armchair Dev in the works.

 

Program not engine. Please stop armchair dev. You see fancy words on the forums and try and quote them back so people think you know what you are talking about. Game engine provide the framework for a game. Just like any framework it can only support so much. The issue we are talking about here is a programing. Boss see all your starts even when you are not in combat. In any fight in the game your stats are compared to what you are fighting for every attack made. Level sync is nothing more that another stat. Just like the debuff on Sec X boss.

 

Even the current bolsters have been exploitable to some degree, just ask in the PvP forum. Concluding there's no way to exploit the toggle without even seeing it or its implementation is just naive.

 

Here again you are talking about something you clear don't understand. The pvp bolster exploit is nothing more than figuring out what gives the best results from algorithm. Since the pvp bolster algorithm is far more complex than level sync.

 

The only person here that is naive is you.

 

 

Well I did quit the game but not for that reason. I'm currently playing SWTOR because I like it. Level sync will make me like it more. Adding Level sync and suddenly removing it for very little reason would annoy me.

 

No one in this thread I've seen wants it removed. They want it toggle for it. They understand other people will find a use for it and want it.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Warrgames