4.0 The dumbification of SWTOR.

[SaerethDL]

no you're not.

 

lol!!!!!

[Arsonn]

I'm really, really happy with all changes coming in 4.0 and I believe I am not alone. How can you be upset? Because you'll lose ways to cheat other players, which make you feel better than others? I can't find any other reason.

SWTOR community is very toxic, so I'm really happy that BioWare is finally doing something about this.

Any online community is "Toxic". And how the hell are you "cheating other players" by having things like stats in a game? You aren't. BW is going to realize just like Blizz is going to with WoW, you remove flavor from the game and initiate homogenization, and you're going to decline.

 

They may gain short term success with it, but like any change, if it's bland, it'll set in fast. You can be happy, but there are plenty who aren't.

[Doziker]

Completely agree with OP.

 

Saw this kinda crap in WoW and it ruined the game for me.

[Beyorn]

I can handle everything, even the crafting cluster, but level sycn I cant. Come to your senses and wake up Bioware. There are much easier ways to handle the ganking and tagging issues that wont effect others that DO NOT engage in this behavior

 

NGE INC!!!!!!!!1!!!

[stockmks]

None of those things effect difficulty. They're more quality of life.

 

Perhaps its important to also add into the mix the level of player skill because difficulty doesn't mean anything without consider the player.

 

If you get basic wow model mmo's, all that stuff is quality of life.

If you are new to mmo's and/or haven't done the necessary research and experience, then those things sure will add to the difficulty of the game.

 

Someone else suggested that level sync complainers are complaining because they need to be overlevelled to enjoy the game due to the complexity of the gameplay.. and fair enough they're players too even if they can't play.. but what skill level are the changes/mechanics targeted for?

Edited October 7, 2015 by stockmks

[Pirana]

None of those things effect difficulty.

 

Correct, it doesn't remove the difficulty of the game, they're further removing the thought process.

 

Refer to the definition of dumb.

 

Edit: Here's a quick passage from multiple sites.

 

Dumb down, Informal. to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated:

Edited October 7, 2015 by Pirana

[stockmks]

Correct, it doesn't remove the difficulty of the game, they're further removing the thought process.

 

Refer to the definition of dumb.

 

Edit: Here's a quick passage from multiple sites.

 

Dumb down, Informal. to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated:

 

Did you actually read the op? Or just enjoy looking down on things?

 

#1 Stats Crush

Not really.. the primary stat is incredibly dumb already, if you think its a meaningful challenge to work out which one is for your class dumbness is not with the game. For the secondary stats, most of them are still in tact apart from crit+surge right? As long as they don't remove any more it should be good.

 

#2 Companions Auto Scaled, no gear

This is a million times just quality of life. When you're gearing your characters at the mod vendor, its fine for just you.. but add your companion in and it literally takes close to a faffing hour.. not at helped by all the rightclicking, switching to the companion tab you have to do. This is a GRIND to keep your companion in blues.

 

#3 Letting people buy 60's

.... That's up to the person. All other the changes you take whether you like them or not. This means squat since it doesn't change anything even to the player next to you. Even if the person sucks in group content they'll learn just like EVERYONE does in hammer station, its just somewhere else in the progression.

 

#4 Skill Trees squished even further

Really? I hope not. I was initially hesitant to 3.0's changes, but now i strongly prefer them. The best path forward though would be adding more options, not less, to these customization to make it really interesting. Allowing for screwups if you inputted in the sequence you copied from the google search is backwards gameplay, allowing some interesting customization with real choices is a much more fun use of talents.

 

#5 downscaling-upscaling

This makes the game MORE DIFFICULT. How is this dumb?

 

#6 Bolstering, why does gear even matter

Hopefully they're making the bosses harder to compensate? Without bolster they would have to design boss mechanics to be easier to support a wider range of gear. No choice otherwise gearscore wars. Here they can make them as difficult as they want without the gearcheck. Yes??

[spoe]

I think some people are blowing this up for no reason. The game hasn't even launched yet. Give it a month to settle; then come here and voice your concerns. It's like you're complaining about pumpkin spice toilet paper but you haven't even wiped your butt with it yet.

[Pirana]

Did you actually read the op? Or just enjoy looking down on things?

 

#1 Stats Crush

Not really.. the primary stat is incredibly dumb already, if you think its a meaningful challenge to work out which one is for your class dumbness is not with the game. For the secondary stats, most of them are still in tact apart from crit+surge right? As long as they don't remove any more it should be good.

 

#2 Companions Auto Scaled, no gear

This is a million times just quality of life. When you're gearing your characters at the mod vendor, its fine for just you.. but add your companion in and it literally takes close to a faffing hour.. not at helped by all the rightclicking, switching to the companion tab you have to do. This is a GRIND to keep your companion in blues.

 

#3 Letting people buy 60's

.... That's up to the person. All other the changes you take whether you like them or not. This means squat since it doesn't change anything even to the player next to you. Even if the person sucks in group content they'll learn just like EVERYONE does in hammer station, its just somewhere else in the progression.

 

#4 Skill Trees squished even further

Really? I hope not. I was initially hesitant to 3.0's changes, but now i strongly prefer them. The best path forward though would be adding more options, not less, to these customization to make it really interesting. Allowing for screwups if you inputted in the sequence you copied from the google search is backwards gameplay, allowing some interesting customization with real choices is a much more fun use of talents.

 

#5 downscaling-upscaling

This makes the game MORE DIFFICULT. How is this dumb?

 

#6 Bolstering, why does gear even matter

Hopefully they're making the bosses harder to compensate? Without bolster they would have to design boss mechanics to be easier to support a wider range of gear. No choice otherwise gearscore wars. Here they can make them as difficult as they want without the gearcheck. Yes??

 

Of course i read the original post, or I wouldn't have responded. My retort was also responding to the multitude of questionable responses throughout the posts in this thread.

 

Again, EAWare continues to remove the thought process, in other words, simplifying the game, if you cannot see that...

 

Are there improved quality of life changes? Sure there are. That doesn't change the fact they're making this game easier.

[Juromaro]

I can handle everything, even the crafting cluster, but level sycn I cant. Come to your senses and wake up Bioware. There are much easier ways to handle the ganking and tagging issues that wont effect others that DO NOT engage in this behavior

 

NGE INC!!!!!!!!1!!!

 

I have to disagree, once again this is more in like with the CU than the NGE, in order for it to be in line with NGE it'll have to go from a Themepark to a Sandbox, which according to all the "glory" SWG gets about it's hay-day would be a good thing right? One thing you have to ask yourself, if SWG pre-CU was so great why did it bleed subs at an alarming rate until the NGE was put in place and the sub count actually started to go back up?

 

I played SWG from launch to close and none of these changes that SWTOR is making even resembles NGE. Combat Upgrade only, who knows maybe 5.0 will be the actual NGE for SWTOR when they finally decide to make this 100% solo/casual?

[JasmineMoldovia]

100% Solo or casual, sounds like it could be fun, and I am serious.

[-staticmatic-]

Does anyone agree with this? with all the rumors about it feels like they are dumbing the game down so that toddlers can even play it.

 

#1 Stats Crush

#2 Companions Auto Scaled, no gear

#3 Letting people buy 60's

#4 Skill Trees squished even further

#5 downscaling-upscaling

#6 Bolstering, why does gear even matter

 

The DUMBIFICATION OF SWTOR

 

These items, as you represent them would technically make the game more alluring for the casual player, and would help crush the undesirable, 3rd party farming and leveling aftermarket. A successful predecessor and competitor to this game has been pulling this off for years.

[well]

Sometimes people don't want to group because they don't have time to. Do you really want to sit there and have to wait for someone because their baby began crying and needs to be fed? Or their dog needs to be walked? Or they came on long enough to do one or two things before they have to take the family out for socializing with them?

 

Not everyone is disabled and can stay home and play all day.

Not everyone is retired and can stay home and play all day.

Not everyone is unemployed and can stay home and play all day.

Some people can only play 30 minutes a day.

Some people only have non raid days off/available to play and they want to finish their class story, which is solo only.

Some people don't want to group with people who suck the fun out of the room.

Some people are free to play and don't have their weekly ops pass or pvp pass.

Some people have ran all the operations and flashpoints numerous times and don't want to run them again.

Some people only want to come online to vent their real life frustrations out on the npcs in a video game.

 

And some people don't want to spend an hour looking for others for a pug operation run. Maybe they want to run HM Toborro's Courtyard, but it's not on group finder and no one will join them for it.

 

Maybe they don't need anymore gear from that operation or flashpoint and don't need to do anything group related at the moment.

 

There's millions of reasons why someone prefers to solo instead of group for content. MMO doesn't mean mandatory grouping. It mainly means we're on Bioware's servers, online, playing in an environment where other players are also congregating at the same time.

 

If you want forced grouping there are games out there for it. Final Fanatasy, Everquest, etc.

 

Nicely put. Time is very important to some people. Some have a certain amount of time to play and that is it. Why kill half of it to get in a group. The reason I don't group is I don't need no drama. I have R/L for that and I don't even have to pay for it.

[Raansu]

100% Solo or casual, sounds like it could be fun, and I am serious.

 

Go play a single player game then.

[Raansu]

Sometimes people don't want to group because they don't have time to. Do you really want to sit there and have to wait for someone because their baby began crying and needs to be fed? Or their dog needs to be walked? Or they came on long enough to do one or two things before they have to take the family out for socializing with them?

 

Not everyone is disabled and can stay home and play all day.

Not everyone is retired and can stay home and play all day.

Not everyone is unemployed and can stay home and play all day.

Some people can only play 30 minutes a day.

Some people only have non raid days off/available to play and they want to finish their class story, which is solo only.

Some people don't want to group with people who suck the fun out of the room.

Some people are free to play and don't have their weekly ops pass or pvp pass.

Some people have ran all the operations and flashpoints numerous times and don't want to run them again.

Some people only want to come online to vent their real life frustrations out on the npcs in a video game.

 

And some people don't want to spend an hour looking for others for a pug operation run. Maybe they want to run HM Toborro's Courtyard, but it's not on group finder and no one will join them for it.

 

Maybe they don't need anymore gear from that operation or flashpoint and don't need to do anything group related at the moment.

 

There's millions of reasons why someone prefers to solo instead of group for content. MMO doesn't mean mandatory grouping. It mainly means we're on Bioware's servers, online, playing in an environment where other players are also congregating at the same time.

 

If you want forced grouping there are games out there for it. Final Fanatasy, Everquest, etc.

 

Then its time to play something else that's not related to the MMO genre. Plenty of single player games out there. I hear mobile games are perfect for you.

[Juromaro]

Go play a single player game then.

 

If you can recommend a star wars single player game that's constantly updated with the presence of other people that I can choose to interact with whenever I see fit then please notify me.

 

 

Edit: "Its a MMO go play single player games" is so tired and over used, show me a current MMO out that requires grouping for EVERYTHING, people who develop MMO's realized years ago that Casual Solo players play MMO's the longest, they also tend to not game jump every time a new game comes out, hold subs for multiple games at any given time, because they aren't forced to join a group for everything. The last true group focused MMO was FFXI, and even they started making things solo friendly. Look at WoW the largest MMO to date, the only things you have to group for are Dungeons, Raids and Battlegrounds, the other 3/4ths of the game can be done solo, same here, the only things I have to group for are Battlegrounds(ground and space), Ops and some events/world bosses.

 

So instead of telling someone to go play a single player game, maybe you should go play an MMO designed for 100% grouping. Just sayin

Edited October 7, 2015 by Juromaro

[Teladis]

If you can recommend a star wars single player game that's constantly updated with the presence of other people that I can choose to interact with whenever I see fit then please notify me.

 

Right? MMO is just a massive rpg with players. That does not mean you should be social or even make friends in it. What it means is that OPTION is ready for you if you want to do it.

 

The age of raid or die, Group or die is ending. MMOs are going back to its mud roots in a good way.

[_NovaBlast_]

Then its time to play something else that's not related to the MMO genre. Plenty of single player games out there. I hear mobile games are perfect for you.

 

Raansu really most of your comments really make me facepalm but you have outdone yourself this time.

 

By definition Some MMO like swtor are single player games by default. Unless you get a game hat is more group based like a moba.

 

A massively multiplayer online game (MMO or MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played over a network, such as the Internet

 

mmo is simply an environment in which multiple people are playing in the same environment in real time ...it has nothing to do with forced grouping or pvp in a general sense..

 

op's and pvp add on's for the niche crowd especially in swtor that is a Story driven RPG

 

Why do you think all Fp now made soloable.... really saying stuff like that just makes you look foolish and rude.

 

There was a thread stating how rude some people can be and you just proved it right with one comment.

Edited October 7, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Swaggz]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this one, but shouldn't an MMO be group content based? I mean what's the real point on playing online NEXT to instead of WITH other people online. If one is more worried about single player content, then whether it's an MMO or not shouldn't matter. What's the exact point of paying a sub for a single player game with very little replayability?

 

Now, between the rehashed endgame content and crafting getting changed, why bother with evening having any sort of endgame if the set bonus gear will be craftable now? Why not just give it away from a vendor? It's not exactly helping in retaining even the casual raider in 4.0.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Swaggz

[Teladis]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this one, but shouldn't an MMO be group content based? I mean what's the real point on playing online NEXT to instead of WITH other people online. If one is more worried about single player content, then whether it's an MMO or not shouldn't matter. What's the exact point of paying a sub for a single player game with very little replayability?

 

Now, between the rehashed endgame content and crafting getting changed, why bother with evening having any sort of endgame if the set bonus gear will be craftable now? Why not just give it away from a vendor? It's not exactly helping in retaining even the casual raider in 4.0.

 

You are the minority. MMOS are just massive rpgs with lots of players. That is it. The point is that I can use others for making money on the global market, or just have THAT OPTION to group if I feel like it. Paying a sub for a single player game that keeps getting more and more content added? Lots of reasons why. This mmo is changing for the better for many players. That is why we are coming back to it. Since pre 4.0 was kinda a failure to us.

[DarthMaulUK]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this one, but shouldn't an MMO be group content based? I mean what's the real point on playing online NEXT to instead of WITH other people online. If one is more worried about single player content, then whether it's an MMO or not shouldn't matter. What's the exact point of paying a sub for a single player game with very little replayability?

 

Now, between the rehashed endgame content and crafting getting changed, why bother with evening having any sort of endgame if the set bonus gear will be craftable now? Why not just give it away from a vendor? It's not exactly helping in retaining even the casual raider in 4.0.

 

Nice thought but when you run out of players, finding a group is difficult, so you just give up trying. On topic, the game has to be dumbed down to attract the expected influx of players after Episode 7. It's the perfect chance for EA to cash in on the new movie so a less complex game is their best option

[Juromaro]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this one, but shouldn't an MMO be group content based? I mean what's the real point on playing online NEXT to instead of WITH other people online. If one is more worried about single player content, then whether it's an MMO or not shouldn't matter. What's the exact point of paying a sub for a single player game with very little replayability?

 

Now, between the rehashed endgame content and crafting getting changed, why bother with evening having any sort of endgame if the set bonus gear will be craftable now? Why not just give it away from a vendor?

 

 

It was like that in the old days, but as with all things times change, Age of Empire matches evolved into starcraft matchs which evolved into other mobas, FPS went from being lan party to what it is now, MMO's may have started out group focused but they moved away from that model thanks to the accessible options WoW introduced, which introduced an entirely new type of player to the MMO scene, that turned out to be a much larger much more reliable client....the casual.

 

While I loved FFXI and even met my wife playing that game back in 04, I was one of the ones who despised WoW before I even tried it because it was causing my game to lose people that I played with daily. I eventually got tired of the raid bucket days and settled quite nicely into the role of a casual gamer. Now I no longer have to have my phone charged waiting for a call at 4am cause a boss spawned, I no longer have to have TS3 or Vent on my computer so I can be told how to do a boss that we've done 50 times before. Now I can pop into pvp and get my facesmash on before hoping back out and continuing to enjoy the game the way I want to and not the way someone else tells me I have to.

 

I seem to recall another MMO that recently came out that was designed for hardcores.....I heard that game has gone f2p in record time.

[Swaggz]

Nice thought but when you run out of players, finding a group is difficult, so you just give up trying. On topic, the game has to be dumbed down to attract the expected influx of players after Episode 7. It's the perfect chance for EA to cash in on the new movie so a less complex game is their best option

 

Even as a casual player, finding a group who knows what it's doing or individual players who know what they're doing has been difficult since 3.0's launch. The amount of ToS and Rav pug fails is testament to that. Even with the movie, the influx will last what, 2 months, 3 tops? Then what? No new endgame, no new PvP, and people burning through the "epic story" faster than they release chapters. Doesn't really sound like a recipe for success, at least in the wider market.

[Arsonn]

Did you actually read the op? Or just enjoy looking down on things?

 

#1 Stats Crush

Not really.. the primary stat is incredibly dumb already, if you think its a meaningful challenge to work out which one is for your class dumbness is not with the game. For the secondary stats, most of them are still in tact apart from crit+surge right? As long as they don't remove any more it should be good.

 

#2 Companions Auto Scaled, no gear

This is a million times just quality of life. When you're gearing your characters at the mod vendor, its fine for just you.. but add your companion in and it literally takes close to a faffing hour.. not at helped by all the rightclicking, switching to the companion tab you have to do. This is a GRIND to keep your companion in blues.

 

#3 Letting people buy 60's

.... That's up to the person. All other the changes you take whether you like them or not. This means squat since it doesn't change anything even to the player next to you. Even if the person sucks in group content they'll learn just like EVERYONE does in hammer station, its just somewhere else in the progression.

 

#4 Skill Trees squished even further

Really? I hope not. I was initially hesitant to 3.0's changes, but now i strongly prefer them. The best path forward though would be adding more options, not less, to these customization to make it really interesting. Allowing for screwups if you inputted in the sequence you copied from the google search is backwards gameplay, allowing some interesting customization with real choices is a much more fun use of talents.

 

#5 downscaling-upscaling

This makes the game MORE DIFFICULT. How is this dumb?

 

#6 Bolstering, why does gear even matter

Hopefully they're making the bosses harder to compensate? Without bolster they would have to design boss mechanics to be easier to support a wider range of gear. No choice otherwise gearscore wars. Here they can make them as difficult as they want without the gearcheck. Yes??

Taking things away that give classes identity is not a good thing. In mmo's, I enjoy seeing intellect on my gear as a spellcaster in other mmos. And seeing cunning on a piece of gear that drops.

 

Yes, there was nothing difficult about stats. So why remove them? Yes, they're removing them and replacing them all with a single stat. That's taking away diversity, and it's taking flavor away. And with adaptive armor, everyone can just use anything. They may as well just put a single stat on gear. Damage or Healing. No secondaries, not primaries, just Damage or healing.

[Juromaro]

Even as a casual player, finding a group who knows what it's doing or individual players who know what they're doing has been difficult since 3.0's launch. The amount of ToS and Rav pug fails is testament to that. Even with the movie, the influx will last what, 2 months, 3 tops? Then what? No new endgame, no new PvP, and people burning through the "epic story" faster than they release chapters. Doesn't really sound like a recipe for success, at least in the wider market.

 

 

 

I think most of the dread right now is just people jumping at shadows, they did the same thing with the game first released, everyone rushed to 50 then complained not enough to do.