Please make level scaling optional in KotFE

[well]

delete Edited September 20, 2015 by well

[Aries_cz]

"For our own good".

 

If NO ONE would do it, maybe it's not such a great idea...

 

 

It NEEDS to be optional, if for no other reason than that so that players can vote with their feet.

 

People have been asking for mentoring system, something that would let them play with low level friends without screwing up their XP gains and make the fights not so trivial, for a long time now.

 

But yes, if implemented, it has to be optional.

 

Not to mention, it would not work unless it was different in instances or something, as you need to fight high level enemies on low level planets, mainly in Sith storylines...

[DalrisThane]

It really baffles me that you had a hard time in GW2 by being downleveled.

 

Fair enough, though that's what happened, (not saying you do it), but there's a nice helping of false modesty on most boards with the "If I can do it, everyone else can...". Just saying...

 

It begs the question why you would play a game that you aren't good at and not wanting to learn or being able to get better at it? That's sort of the point of MMOs...

 

Oh, I can answer "why play" pretty damn simply : someone else dragged me kicking and screaming to the MMO genre. It's not anyone here's problem or fault, but it is MY reality.

 

I'm not including MMOs I've spent less than a year on (might get the whos and whys confused... pushing 50 so memory isn't what it used to me) =

 

EverQuest: 8 LONG years as a raider. I blame my wife... STILL.

 

City of Heroes: Launch to Shutdown, 8? years. Best friend dragged me to it.

 

Guild Wars 2: Launch to last year i.e. 2 years. Best friend's wife dragged me to it. Left because I was banned due to board posts.

 

SWTOR: Launch to now, i.e. going on 4 years. 4+ good friends were into it.

 

Marvel Heroes: Launch to now i.e. 2+ years. Daughter wanted me to play.

 

The only reason I keep playing SWTOR is that I have Asperger's syndrome (simplification: think Autism + OCD) that keeps me playing, and, well, I want to see how the story would play out with my choices. I'll admit, if SWTOR was pure gameplay like EQ, I'd be LONG gone.

 

(Tells you how much I hated EQ. Every other game I started, I still play, or was banned, or shutdown. EQ still running, yet the hatred of it pushed me away more that my "need" to complete it. For me, that's a huge deal.)

 

Now, before I sound too much like the victim, the agreement has been all my life : I pick 90%+ of the TV / Movies. They pick the games / other activities (or I'd do TV as my sole entertainment).

 

But yeah, the agreement changed recently, so they get more say in TV/movies, but I never again have to play an MMO. And, and soon as Marvel Heroes and/or SWTOR shutdown or reaches the EQ level, I'm out.

 

Sidebar = I play Single Player games on easiest (God Mode if they have it) and I still struggle. I died a lot on Mass Effect on easiest. I still haven't finished 3 though I'm on it right now.

 

But, EXACTLY as you say, there is no reason to continue in a genre I hate.

 

Actually, if you read my sig, I don't really want to play games. I want to see a movie with an "OH HELL NO" button that I push to get the alternative ending or path. Until then, it's story based games that I "make do" with.

 

Sadly, at my age, I'll be dead before interactive movies become a feasible reality...

Edited September 20, 2015 by DalrisThane

[Aricus]

^ fair enough... but under such a system, why even have levels?

 

To gain skills, talents, higher/better gear, you know all that fun stuff. You'll still be able to use them even if you de-leveled below the requirement to use purchase or learn them.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Aricus

[Transcendent]

changes to the core mechanics of the game need to be tested and vetted properly - in an open beta period.

 

That's something I 100% agree with.

 

Not closed PTS testing invites, like SoR, along with the developers ignoring the feedback players gave. Because that clearly worked well then....especially on the broken / bugged parts of the game

 

To gain skills, talents, higher/better gear, you know all that fun stuff. You'll still be able to use them even if you de-leveled below the requirement to use purchase or learn them.

 

Gearing will be pointless. Like GW2. It's a dumbing down move, which is also pointless as it removes a large portion of playing an MMO, aka progression.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Transcendent

[Shayddow]

<<they were never meant to be soloed in the first place.>>

maybe so. but then, you have people that LIKE to play at 730 am in the morning, there are exactly 7 people on the planet I'm on with an alt at the moment - so tell me, how are all these "groups" going to be available?

Its like if I play at 3 am in Section X - how can I do aurora cannon FP if there's only 1 other person on the planet? <requires mechanically 3 or 4 actual players - because companions can't push the buttons> - answer? I can't.

[Aricus]

That's something I 100% agree with.

 

Not closed PTS testing invites, like SoR, along with the developers ignoring the feedback players gave. Because that clearly worked well then....especially on the broken / bugged parts of the game

 

 

 

Gearing will be pointless. Like GW2. It's a dumbing down move, which is also pointless as it removes a large portion of playing an MMO, aka progression.

 

Gear won't be pointless like in GW2.

 

Your gear will still be accounted for. So if you were to go to a previous planet at level 65 in your raid gear, you'll be in artifact gear that's equivalent to the planet's level, plus you'll have the set bonus.

 

In other words, if you were to go back to planet Hoth as a level 65 in raid gear or raid set, your gear (and your chara) will be in level 41 artifacts that still has the set bonus applied. Those mobs will die A LOT faster than if you were a true level 41, with no raid set or bonuses. Hell doesn't even have to be raid set, just having the level 65 talents/skills/prototype and artifact gear will make a huge difference.

 

So yeah, gear is going to matter and so will levels.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Aricus

[MisterBlackJack]

Absolutely incorrect. I, for one, am looking forward to the FP/Ops scaling as I love to re-run the older FPs like Esseles and Hammer because I enjoy them. The scaling will allow me to enjoy them and now have my higher level characters face a new level of challenge while doing them.

 

However, there are times where I most certainly want to be overleveled so I can faceroll them - for a myriad of reasons including farming for a particular item, affection gain, or for just something to do quick and easy for 20-30 minutes.

 

I want the option. I don't want only one way to be forced upon me. I've already only have the faceroll part once my characters level up. While I do want that new challenge, I also do not want the faceroll taken away from me.

 

Same thing goes for the planetary scaling. I do not want it forced. Most certainly there will be times that I will wish to have my character scaled to the planetary level, and will make use of that quite often. However, once again, I also want that faceroll option so I can use it when I need to.

 

Scaling turned me off from Oblivion and Guild Wars 2. Forced scaling in SWTOR will most certainly do the same thing.

 

Again I am not talking about Flashpoints or Operations when it comes to this point. I am talking about out in the open world scaling (which all the datamine and pts leaks along with Bioware's statement of "Streamlining the level process" is indicating that it's going to happen).

 

You really believe that players will give up a significant advantage to kill a world boss in order to group up with people? What's going to happen if an option to scaling is there is that people that are going to try to do it the correct way will be waiting for everyone to get there only to have one jerk pull and kill the boss leaving them 2 hours respond wait time (minus dreadtooth and worldbreaker).

 

Options are not always the best for a gaming community or players, especially if the developers have a particular philosophy they want to use. Which seems to be the case in fallen empire, is that they want ALL GROUP content (including heroics and world bosses) from here on out to be valid regardless of level.

 

And I personally don't think there is anything wrong with this philosophy. It has potential for Bioware to create MORE group content at a faster rate then it currently is and it opens to possibility of more Options TO GROUP for.

[MisterBlackJack]

You didn't kill a council member just getting off korriban. The chapters take place in a 3 year interval. Your character also survives through a lot. An initiate on korriban has not been through the things you have. Also you won't three shot them. If it's like any kind of scaling even if you have more abilities (it just means more options) your ranks in those skills etc is scaled. Stats are scaled. There's a maximum. Would they be easy? Yes but they'd put up some fight. Get hit too many times on a speeder and it crashes. You'll be forced to fight. We don't want to skip "some" of them. We want to skip all of them and not using work around. We earned that right.

 

Note our characters are also a "once in a generation" sith. If every other random initiate is "That strong." nope. Doesn't make sense.

 

If your trying to use Immersion as a valid argument to not implement an MMO feature, that shipped had sailed long ago

[MisterBlackJack]

If true the only thing I can think of and the only way it makes sense is that you're going to have to go back to old planets to gain influence and they don't want people facerolling it.

 

well according to the leaks THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT"S GOING TO HAPPEN.

[MisterBlackJack]

if it was optional and no one did it, wouldn't that be a good hint as to the desirability of the idea in the first place?

 

NO ONE was asking for this. Very few people appear to think it is a great idea.

 

If it goes live I will not be resubbing. They lose the equivalent of 25 subscriptions if that is the case.

 

NO it hints at the fact players will go the lazy route and find the best possible way to gain rewards and achievements. This argument is like saying well if people use win-trading in ranked because it's faster than actually playing by the rules says there's no desire to play rank, which showing the higher pops in rank lately proves that's not the case. Or people who cheese under lurker by using the exploit, does that make fight undesireable. NO just that without restraints players will take the fastest route to gaining rewards regardless if affects other people.

[MisterBlackJack]

I played guild wars 2. I was curious why they even bothered to have levels. Gear is practically irrelevant in GW as well. Also the content will be even more irrelevant anyway. Most people quest to gain levels. Most people don't do older content and it's not because it was too easy but because it was irrelevant. They no longer needed the exp those quests require. Most people race to the end game. To most people that is the only relevance of side quests. I'm sure there's a bigger number of people who, out of boredom, come back for some easy achievements. Many of those people, with the added difficulty, won't do them because there's a reason they didn't do them the first time around.

 

I feel people like you would be in the minority. That's my opinion.

 

well let's be honest, Gear is pretty much irrelevant now until max level with all the changes they made.

[MisterBlackJack]

It is a great idea ... when the individual player has the decision placed in his or her hands as to when it is active and when it is not - in other words:

 

OPTIONAL

 

NOT in the open world. OPTIONS are terrible

[MisterBlackJack]

"For our own good".

 

If NO ONE would do it, maybe it's not such a great idea...

 

 

It NEEDS to be optional, if for no other reason than that so that players can vote with their feet.

 

You don't seem to understand that adding an option IN THE OPEN WORLD pretty much means you are creating an disadvantage to those who don't use it. I'ts better everyone has to use it than to force people to NOT use it.

[Rhyltran]

If your trying to use Immersion as a valid argument to not implement an MMO feature, that shipped had sailed long ago

 

Oh? Really? How so? There has been nothing this jarring and it isn't just immersion. There's nothing more than going to some part of the world where you got unlucky and had some difficulty and then dropping and AOE cackling while everything dies. Kind of a right of passage. Kind of joy that you know you've come a long way since then. The same with anything really. Like "Wow, look at that world boss. I used to fear it when it was walking around but now? I've come so far it's a chump to me."

 

We call this.. progression.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[MisterBlackJack]

They were if YOU OUTLEVELED for just Achievements them. This scaling is Stupidity at it's greatest. If ppl want to do the Heroics being scaled that's fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Actually IT ISNT'T Fine, it's damned rediculous. Like i said with all this Junk that has been put into the Nerfing the hell and scaling all these thing, They could've easily, as I said made probably more like 4 NEW FP's and OP's, could be a Lot More.

 

At this point you should No Longer even have any kind of Leveling Period. MMO's which this is being a now a Single Player game with just DLC's. MMO's have Leveling for a very good reason.

 

1) So ppl will have a sense of Real Accomplishment, so when you lvl, You are Less likely to be killed and needlessly herrasseed by mobs that We should No Longer have to be afraid of Because of the FACT that We are Suppossed to be far Superior to the life on said lower lvl Planets after 10 to 15 lvl above them, hell even 5 lvls sometimes we shouldn't have to worry too much about getting killed.

 

2) By being higher leveled at a certain level I Should be able to Solo Almost everything. With Re-scaling We Are being Nerfed to Hell, not giving us any Reason to lvl with anAyny Real Satisfaction. What the Devs have done, is Really Nerfing our higher lvl'd Characters that we worked Hard for to be abe to Beat the hell out this now Lowly stupid NPCs that used to kill us and herrass us all the time. We should always at a Certain Lvl be able to Solo 98% of things.

 

I could go on and on and on four hours of Reasons over and over again, but Facts are facts when I leave a Planet behing and come back when i'm up to 15-20 lvls later. Yeah i better be able to kil those 98% of thing without any blood-loss and dodge everything.

 

Now, if scaling back ur Level is an Option, then i'm ok with that. But if it's forced on me, then that's another reason for me to no re-sub again.

 

I know most ppl Will want that as an Option. Because facts are that at Certain levels, we Should be able to Kick every1s arses around.

 

Keyword Is Optional.

 

For Comms, I Definitely see the reason for any Re-scale. Otherwise hell no. Even with Achievements.

 

Your completely missing the whole reason why they said they didn't add any ops. They want to change how Group Content is OUTLEVELED FIRST so then all they have to worry about is add New content without worry about it being old and outdated when a new level increase comes. And they want to add this to ALL GROUP CONTEN, i.e. MORE heroics, MORE world bosses, MORE open world activities, that players, regardless of level, can get to gether and do.

[MisterBlackJack]

Oh? Really? How so? There has been nothing this jarring and it isn't just immersion. There's nothing more than going to some part of the world where you got unlucky and had some difficulty and then dropping and AOE cackling while everything dies. Kind of a right of passage. Kind of joy that you know you've come a long way since then. The same with anything really. Like "Wow, look at that world boss. I used to fear it when it was walking around but now? I've come so far it's a chump to me."

 

We call this.. progression.

 

I can tell you what's more enjoying. Fighting through a huge mob of enemies, using all the powers of the force, or your skills with a blaster, to take them all down and ultimately come out on top. That's a far better for me than just one hitting everything. It keeps me engaged and on my toes.

 

When it comes to a world boss I enjoy the feeling more of me and my buddies having to get together and bringing down this massive foe. This is after all an MMO

 

But even if I didn't want to do that. I now have so many mobility abilities that I can simply just run past them until they reset.

Edited September 20, 2015 by MisterBlackJack

[Rhyltran]

I can tell you what's more enjoying. Fighting through a huge mob of enemies, using all the powers of the force, or your skills with a blaster, to take them all down and ultimately come out on top. That's a far better for me than just one hitting everything. It keeps me engaged and on my toes.

 

When it comes to a world boss I enjoy the feeling more of me and my buddies having to get together and bringing down this massive foe. This is after all an MMO

 

But even if I didn't want to do that. I now have so many mobility abilities that I can simply just run past them until they reset.

 

Certain areas are more dense than others. If you're scaled down to having "artifact gear" of that level? That won't be enough to survive in all cases. Sometimes you would need to stop and heal when running through enemies. If there's enough to hit you off the mount you know what this is doing? It's slowing down how fast it took me to get to a location as opposed to before. This is a downgrade. Things being challenging and takes skill? That's great and all for things that are appropriate to your level. If you're leveled past a planet you earned the right to trivialize it. Taking down a boss with groups is fun when you're the appropriate level. It's also fun coming back and doing it solo to see how far you've come since then.

 

I got my finacee into the game and we had to go back to Hutta. She got aggroed and fired a single missile killing an entire group of the enemies. Stopped and said "Wow.. I remember when I had to fight through these guys. I've become so powerful since I first started. Oh, you see that gold over there? I remember when it caught me off guard and gave me trouble. -missile blasts it killing it instantly.- Hehe. I didn't realize how strong I've become until coming back here. It's kind of cool." This is a good feeling. This is what a level system is supposed to convey. Progression. Achievement. She felt good about now being able to one shot things.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Shayddow]

Sorry Obi-Wan. You no longer outlevel the abilities of these troopers over here, so these ARE the droids we're looking for, you are under arrest and you are to be taken to the Emperor for dismemberment, torture and death. Have a nice day!

[Tahra]

I can tell you what's more enjoying. Fighting through a huge mob of enemies, using all the powers of the force, or your skills with a blaster, to take them all down and ultimately come out on top. That's a far better for me than just one hitting everything. It keeps me engaged and on my toes.

 

And to me I like exactly the opposite thing. I want things as easy as they can be. I want to skip mobs I don't need to kill for a quest. I want groups to die in 1 hit if there's that option.

 

People like different things, so making a feature like this OPTIONAL would please everyone. The people who want to be challenged all the time and the people who want to play to relax and not worry about content they did 3 years ago to actually kill their character they've been building up and making stronger for those years.

 

You don't seem to understand that adding an option IN THE OPEN WORLD pretty much means you are creating an disadvantage to those who don't use it. I'ts better everyone has to use it than to force people to NOT use it.

 

And this is just pure nonsense. Those people who don't use it, do so BY CHOICE. They WANT it more challenging or they would have disabled the option.

 

 

Long story short; for me personally; if this turns out to be true, I will spend WAY less than I would otherwise do.

(staying subbed vs subbing once every couple months and not spending another cent on Cartel Market because the game's just not worth it). I can't be the only one who feels this way.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Tahra

[MTCason]

What is this? I haven't heard anything official about content in KotFE scaling to level.

[Max_Killjoy]

If I want "a challenge" I'll go to an area or whatever that offers it.

 

If I'm going to a level 20 place with my level 60 character, it's not for "a challenge".

[MisterBlackJack]

Certain areas are more dense than others. If you're scaled down to having "artifact gear" of that level? That won't be enough to survive in all cases. Sometimes you would need to stop and heal when running through enemies. If there's enough to hit you off the mount you know what this is doing? It's slowing down how fast it took me to get to a location as opposed to before. This is a downgrade. Things being challenging and takes skill? That's great and all for things that are appropriate to your level. If you're leveled past a planet you earned the right to trivialize it. Taking down a boss with groups is fun when you're the appropriate level. It's also fun coming back and doing it solo to see how far you've come since then.

 

I got my finacee into the game and we had to go back to Hutta. She got aggroed and fired a single missile killing an entire group of the enemies. Stopped and said "Wow.. I remember when I had to fight through these guys. I've become so powerful since I first started. Oh, you see that gold over there? I remember when it caught me off guard and gave me trouble. -missile blasts it killing it instantly.- Hehe. I didn't realize how strong I've become until coming back here. It's kind of cool." This is a good feeling. This is what a level system is supposed to convey. Progression. Achievement. She felt good about now being able to one shot things.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that it appears Bioware no longer share that philosophy, instead want to adapt a concept where all group content will be made relevant regardless of level. It's not like I hear the arguments you and others are making, I just also am looking at the devs perspective and their ultimate endgame with this change, which I believe is to make more group content relevant but also make it easier to create new content without the worry of having it go out of date in 6 months. The pros with this decision (for the many) out way the cons (the one) in my opinion. I hope it's implemented. There will be an adjustment period, I know that. Nevertheless, after thinking about it throughout this weekend, I believe this is the best decision for the game in the long run.

[MisterBlackJack]

And to me I like exactly the opposite thing. I want things as easy as they can be. I want to skip mobs I don't need to kill for a quest. I want groups to die in 1 hit if there's that option.

 

People like different things, so making a feature like this OPTIONAL would please everyone. The people who want to be challenged all the time and the people who want to play to relax and not worry about content they did 3 years ago to actually kill their character they've been building up and making stronger for those years.

 

 

 

And this is just pure nonsense. Those people who don't use it, do so BY CHOICE. They WANT it more challenging or they would have disabled the option.

 

 

Long story short; for me personally; if this turns out to be true, I will spend WAY less than I would otherwise do.

(staying subbed vs subbing once every couple months and not spending another cent on Cartel Market because the game's just not worth it). I can't be the only one who feels this way.

 

It's a false choice just like it was a false choice with skill trees. Yes you could do it, but you won't be effective or taken in endgame content with a hybrid spec, because the devs didn't design the game for that.

 

The same thing can be said here, yes you can do it by group, however what's the point in trying to form a group when random A hole #278 comes in engages the boss and kills him easily. People will look and go "What the **** is the point of this scaling?"

 

In most cases I would agree options are the best, but this instance it's farther from the truth because its purely an illusion to choice. When you have a drastic difference like this case, the easier path WILL ALWAYS be taken.

[MisterBlackJack]

What is this? I haven't heard anything official about content in KotFE scaling to level.

 

There have been leaks and datamined info that point to this. Also remember bioware talked about "Streamlining leveling" and "redesigning the group content where it's always relevant". It's not official but I am almost certain when they talk about the streamlining this week, this will be officially confirmed.