Listen to the hardcore players.

[GrandMike]

ALL the hardcore players left within the first 2 months, then you had the next tier of raiders get bored, then they left, then the next month the next tier left.

 

Eventually all you had left is what you got now, fanbois, drones and poorly motivated no skill gamers.

 

HOW is it the hardcore players fault? THEY posted for months on the forums to make things harder to create more open faction conflict to focus on what WORKS in an mmo.

 

But no, instead developers listened to the casuals, gave them access to ALL content on easy mode (Nightmare mode in SWTOR is easy, what should take months to complete was done in days) Sure the poorer players took longer but even they have completed everrything within a few months.

 

You cannot blame the hardcore for what has happened to TOR, they tried to save it by posting in beta forums and early access forums that the game is too easy. All i have seen from fainbois and casuals is deluded posts like the game is awesome and nothing is wrong (something i swear the devs see and believe, even when they are sacking staff, closing/merging servers and going F2P within its first year!!). Sadly i still see the devs listening to them, if you read the beta and PTS forums they spell out plainly what needs to be done, they are screwing up F2P model and now the last hope for TOR is the SSSP, all the evidence is pointing to that being messed up too.

 

It is not the hardcore players that are at fault it is the Devs listening to farmville players wanting to be able to complete ALL content and not be buutthurt too much in BG's etc, do that and the game is a joke.

 

Game needed >10k subs to survive (it still does)

 

They tried to please hardcores (better term is elitist, as not all hardcores are elitists, and you are an elitist) but in doing so they screwed the game for everyone else (along with just plain bad design decisions like copying WoW). They still do that - EC NiM and moar gearz - so now you have to troggle through 2 mindnumbing tiers before it.

 

Noone cares about elitists any more and rightly so. They are bad news for games and communities. Once devs finally figure that out, they can start making games that other 99% wants to play and pay for longer than current model - hit endgame and quit - because endgame does 180 turn to what theyve been doing (and enjoying) up to then to fit "elitist" profile.

Edited November 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[thatghost]

Eventually all you had left is what you got now, fanbois, drones and poorly motivated no skill gamers.

Oh? You're still here. You're able to post. So which one are you? Spare us the elitism. As if these forums need more of it

[Spatology]

The elitism argument is dumb guys. Your mom choose your father over some other guy, she is an elitist.....

 

i only eat chocolate icream because vanilla is too easy, im an elitist?

I speed all the time when i drive, im an elitist?

 

The man is holdin them down guys, someone help the repressed.

 

PVE'ers vs PVP'ers vs Elitist vs Sandboxers vs Chat trolls is what it looks like to me.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Spatology

[dipstik]

the hardcore players only care about gear/clearing... but tha is not what makes this game fun in my opinion. bioware should listen to anyone that has a good idea on how to make the game more fun... not a more robust gear grind,

[GrandMike]

The elitism argument is dumb guys. Your mom choose your father over some other guy, she is an elitist.....

 

i only eat chocolate icream because vanilla is too easy, im an elitist?

I speed all the time when i drive, im an elitist?

 

The man is holdin them down guys, someone help the repressed.

 

PVE'ers vs PVP'ers vs Elitist vs Sandboxers vs Chat trolls is what it looks like to me.

 

Elitism isnt only about that, elitism comes with certain kind of behaviour and mindset attached.

 

Your mom didnt shut herself off and thought she is best evah and put everyone else down, or expected to be admired... because she chose your dad.

 

etc. etc.

 

Just read OPs post and you will see what its all about.

 

Those kind of people dont have an audience any more since noone cares about them any more. Thats the problem. So they move from game to game looking for that audience and cant find it.

Edited November 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[NasherUK]

There is a point to this though. Once Blizzard started listening to the whiners and casuals about everything being "to hard" in wow, then massively dumbing everything down. The game started to decline because the top guilds and most active and dedicated players started to quit, the progression of the game slowed because there was no one carrying it forward (or carrying casuals) and it just got boring and easy. It's still in decline. Edited November 19, 2012 by NasherUK

[Xiahoufig]

There's also a fine line as far as elitism is concerned. It's one thing to feel proud of being the best of the best. It's another thing entirely to look down on others for not being on your level. That is when it becomes arrogance, which is just unbearable no matter how you slice it.

 

On-topic: Generally, listening to the what is always the minority of the playerbase usually ends badly. The smart thing to do, in my opinion, is keep the majority happy whether they be 'casual' or 'hardcore' and pandering just enough to the outliers to keep them satisfied. They may not be 100% happy with the decision but pleasing everyone at every possible moment just isn't going to happen. It's human nature.

[LordArtemis]

It is obvious that the devs of this game and any MMO need to listen to the hardcore players.

 

Too those players already 50 and beginning some of the endgame.

 

These players win the loot and achieve the goals that the casual, poor and part-time (these are not the same player) players drive to emulate, they ride mounts and hold titles that pull the masses on to play the game.

 

Now you are going to see ALOT of responses from players saying they DONT want this, that they dont look to players that play insanely long periods, or succeed with less time played. They will say that the game does NOT need these players.

 

They are flat out wrong

 

Without the hardcore, uber players staying here neither will the casuals and masses. They say they will but if there are no top end players playing SW:TOR then it will become a bit of a joke in the mmo world.

 

Please I beg you BW, listen to those players that are already 50, already beginning endgame operations, these people KNOW what makes an MMO succeed and what will keep them playing.

 

Ultimately KEEP THE HARDCORE/Elite PLAYING = Keeping the masses playing.

 

*edit below..

 

No, I do think we are social animals though, that like it or not we do look up to those we play with, and ultimately those we play with look up to other people they know or play with.

 

My point is if you do not keep the very highest achievers interested in the game then they will move on, the effect of keeping these people interested is keeping all those that play down the chain interested.

 

Those saying "I only care what my friends do... etc" are only reinforcing my point, without knowing it.

 

The bottom 1% "look up" to the 2% the 2% aspires to achieve the 3%'s loot and success, it is a chain effect all the way to the top.

 

There is a chain, an unbroken link to the very highest achievers in game.

 

EDIT 2**

 

It is absolutely staggering how so many posts do not address the actual point of the post.

 

Im going to copy/paste my response now as it irks me to see it.

 

************************************************** **********************

 

This is not about looking up to the top 1%

 

This is about EVERYONE playing the game with friends and peers they DO look up too and wish to emulate, this is wanting to achieve goals WITH those players, these players you DO wish to emulate and DO respect look up to others and so on, right up to the very top.

 

Now the question is...

 

WHO do aim the most difficult endgame content at?

 

On a scale of 1-100 WHERE do you target the difficulty level?

 

************************************************** **********************

 

The point of the OP is too make sure the devs aim the difficulty level of the endgame content at as high a percentage as possible, I would say the top 5-10%.

 

If you aim it at the average gamer 50% mark, then you will have half your player base bored out of their tiny brains, the upper eschelons of this percentage will jump ship fast, this will leave the best players in the game as average players.

 

Finally you will see players OUTSIDE of the game begin to ridicule players that play this game, a meme will appear, with the derogotory nature "Are you a SW:TOR player?!"

 

Only a few people it seems really understand the point im making.

 

AND IT IS NOTTHAT WE SHOULD ALL WORSHIP AND LOOK UP TO HARDCORE PLAYERS!

 

It is not a matter of understanding...it is a matter of likely numbers.

 

Hardcore players make up a minority in almost every game that has counted them against casual players. In most games, like I expect this, the casual playerbase far exceeds the number of hardcore players.

 

It has been my experience that what hardcore players want, for the most part, does not appeal to casual players. And I think listening to and catering to hardcore players in the first place based on design decisions killed the game's chances from the beginning.

 

They should have listened to casuals IMO, and they need to do so now.

 

The game does not need end game content currently IMO. It needs casual "sandboxy" content to keep casuals engaged. Things like:

 

- BF2 style space combat battleground with a persistent 24/7 battle, that has both PVE and PVP elements

- PVE arena where you are pitted against NPCs of increasing difficulty...like in KotOR. Ranking system a must.

- Swoop racing and card games

- Chat bubbles added for /say, swimming, sleep, sitting in all chairs

- Personal direct crafting with minigames and a higher chance to crit

- Ability to craft companion appearance

- Mission generator like the one in my sig

- Ability to decorate ships inside and out, using SWG style decoration mechanic, with loot and decorations to quest for

- Addition of bonuses to professions as indicated in my sig

 

As well as certain additions to the store

 

Appearance change

Color change

Server transfer, rename, legacy rename

All base vendor speeders

Dual spec

Convert any armor to empty orange adaptive armor (or schematic for such)

Ability to unlock character slots for use. Preferred accounts should get one 4 free unlocks IMO.

Free mod extraction

One use condition damage resistance buff

Convert single bound item to legacy bound

Unlock legacy cargo bay with common bank

 

 

That is not to say what hardcore players want is not important...only that, at this juncture, they need to cater to casual players in order to build the base. They can return to concentrating on hardcore player desires after a short period of time.

 

Now, that said....it is a reasonable point to make, IMO, that end game difficulty needs to be tuned to current hardcore player's abilities, and therefore end game should be very difficult, AS LONG AS plenty of casual content, as indicated above, exists at endgame.

 

Otherwise the game will not hold players.

 

Just my opinion of course.

Edited November 19, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Xiahoufig]

Man, I would kill for a shared bank, even if it was just a single tab. It was one of the things I liked about Everquest 2. Being able to put BoE moddable gear, gear mods, companion gifts, and consumables in a tab that can be accessed by any of my legacy characters would be great.

[LordArtemis]

Man, I would kill for a shared bank, even if it was just a single tab. It was one of the things I liked about Everquest 2. Being able to put BoE moddable gear, gear mods, companion gifts, and consumables in a tab that can be accessed by any of my legacy characters would be great.

 

...and I believe that kind of item would sell very well on the shop

[BlazingShadow]

look up to players? Videogame players?

 

Oh, please. Seriously, if you have anyone looking up to you in this videogame, you had better be a good citizen and inform them that you have nothing to be proud of and they have nothing to envy, it's just pixels on a screen that you wasted more time on instead of learning something useful in the real world.

[GrandMike]

There is a point to this though. Once Blizzard started listening to the whiners and casuals about everything being "to hard" in wow, then massively dumbing everything down. The game started to decline because the top guilds and most active and dedicated players started to quit, the progression of the game slowed because there was no one carrying it forward (or carrying casuals) and it just got boring and easy. It's still in decline.

 

Not really, "dumbing down" started with BC and it was still in full growth. Elitists were pi**es off at that just as every time afterwards.

 

One thing Blizz said that they were wrong about vanilla endgame, that it was a failure and they wouldnt do it like that again.

Edited November 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[CosmicKat]

A truly "hardcore" MMO player would laugh at this game.

 

The industry abandoned hardcore gamers years ago. Now they are stuck with console gamers who won't pay to play. They are just getting what they deserve.

[Rafaman]

Scan, listen. You are right. The Hardcore Elite like you drive this game and the whole industry for that matter. This game has nothing for you. I'm sure you came back to teach and guide us, the poor casuals, but unfortunately your logic is over our heads.

 

So... tell you what. The best thing to do is for you to go find a game that satiates that need you have to prove you are hardcore. I'm sure there is a game out there that meets at least some of your requirements right?

 

We will do what we can to catch up, but please don't wait. You don't need to advise us anymore either. We get it.

 

We will stay here.

 

Scan is just a hardcore troll and nothing more. Read his previous posts culminating most recently with his prediction that we would not be able to log in this past weekend. Lol!

[Nyaara]

HOW is it the hardcore players fault? THEY posted for months on the forums to make things harder to create more open faction conflict to focus on what WORKS in an mm.

 

Yes, it is at some point cos hardcores whine a lot, all the time whinning in forums etc about the same crap. Hardcores just dont care the rest of community, just care themselves.

 

This game didnt need more Ops and harder modes, the game needed more tunning and more complexity.

 

Right now Guild Wars 2 is suffering this thing about pve and Anet is digging their tomb with the gear progressing if they continue with craps like Fractal etc. The game will die and hardcores will ruin the next one. Always the same the circle.

 

And about faction conflict....is an utopia right now. Just tell me only ONE MMORPG with strong PvP outdoor released a few years ago? even Blizzard gave up about this feature. And you come here blaming BW for something that noone did but prehistoric games did?.

 

Hardcores dont build, just destroy like Atila.

[Mazikeen]

Without the hardcore, uber players staying here neither will the casuals and masses. They say they will but if there are no top end players playing SW:TOR then it will become a bit of a joke in the mmo world.

 

Funny, GW2 was specifically designed for the casual player. In fact, more than a few MMOs have made a point to become more casual-friendly.

 

Also, just because someone has a few 50's and raids does not make them 'hardcore'. Hardcore players are the min/maxxers that feel the need to constantly be first and do the bleeding edge of content, completing it 3 days after release and then whining that they're bored. I play 5+ hours a day and have been for 12 years, but I'm not 'hardcore'.

[Mazikeen]

Right now Guild Wars 2 is suffering this thing about pve and Anet is digging their tomb with the gear progressing if they continue with craps like Fractal etc. The game will die and hardcores will ruin the next one. Always the same the circle.

 

This is why I left GW2. Well, haven't played in a week. I resubbed to SWTOR and intend to play for quite a while.

[MaximusRex]

Its important to provide content for a wide variety of players, and to understand what is appealing to those players.

 

Blizzard learned this lesson the hard way, after years of the hardcores whining about catering to the casuals, and the game got too easy, and classic was so awesome, despite subs going up up up, they decided to reverse direction with Cata and made a lot of the basic content harder, they dropped 6 million subs, and now that they ditched that and went back to having content for casuals as well as hard versions for the hardcore the subs are back up.

 

So, listen to the hardcores, but take it with a grain of salt and don't forget about giving the casuals something to do. It doesn't matter how much they aspire to be like the elite, if there aren't the stepping stones to get there they will never try, and might even quit in frustration if they don't have a path forward.

[Martinic]

Having a hardcore player is expensive even for sub based MMOs. A game that appeals to HC players is a failed one. They will constantly loose money because they don't need to play as much once they have everything they want for free

[CosmicKat]

 

Hardcores dont build, just destroy like Atila.

 

Everquest and UO would beg to differ. Hardcore games still running 15+ years later.

 

I doubt Bioware, EA or even the most brainwashed TOR supporters would expect this game to be running in 15 years.

[GrandMike]

Everquest and UO would beg to differ. Hardcore games still running 15+ years later.

 

I doubt Bioware, EA or even the most brainwashed TOR supporters would expect this game to be running in 15 years.

 

Its good if you aim for 5-10k sub. I THINK that EA aimed for more than that.

 

Sooooo, why arnt all elitists playing those games....since they are "best evah" and are "just as they want em to be"?

Edited November 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Bioware should only listen to the 70% players that left the game since release.

 

a.k.a. read unsubscriber thread, read suggestion box entries from January to April (most losses)

Edited November 19, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[CosmicKat]

Its good if you aim for 5-10k sub. I THINK that EA aimed for more than that.

 

Sooooo, why arnt all elitists playing those games....since they are "best evah" and are "just as they want em to be"?

 

Because they are old and dated?

 

EQ had hundreds of thousands of subs back when those numbers were actually within the same universe as reality.

 

1 player subscribed for 2 years is worth 24 players subscribed for a month.

[GrandMike]

Because they are old and dated?

 

EQ had hundreds of thousands of subs back when those numbers were actually within the same universe as reality.

 

1 player subscribed for 2 years is worth 24 players subscribed for a month.

 

Had...is teh important. As soon as a bit better game was out it crumbled. WoW catered to casuals for the most part. The part that didnt got changed.

[CosmicKat]

Had...is teh important. As soon as a bit better game was out it crumbled. WoW catered to casuals for the most part. The part that didnt got changed.

 

There's nothing wrong with catering to casuals, either in whole or part.

 

The problem is though that every game only caters to casuals now, and that market is notoriously unreliable and clearly too small to sustain the health of games.