EA/BIO - what does it take to get you to fix a long standing F'up?

[Harringtonn]

Love the game.

 

Just can't understand what is so difficult about fixing diminishing returns in pvp? How does it make sense to your developers to allow for chain - full duration - stuns?

 

WoW fixed it YEARS ago. HIRE A COMPETENT DEVELOPER.

 

It's absurd you would allow such a simple mechanic to ruin pvp for so many.

 

Do more people have to quit to get your attention?

 

Seriously, what does it take?

[Giliodor]

Honestly, I've seen a lot worse in PvP. SWTOR has reasonable CC durations. Except the OOC daze that every stealth class seems to get. Why does it last so ridiculously long on players? I think 5s would be acceptable, but this is just silly.

Apart from that, CC isn't so bad.

[Harringtonn]

Honestly, I've seen a lot worse in PvP. SWTOR has reasonable CC durations. Except the OOC daze that every stealth class seems to get. Why does it last so ridiculously long on players? I think 5s would be acceptable, but this is just silly.

Apart from that, CC isn't so bad.

 

The problem is chain ccs.

 

Movement/impairing should not be able to occur more than 1X every 20-30 seconds. And yes, I do mean from multiple sources.

 

Problem at the moment. Sorc stunned - 6 secs. Op stunned 6 secs. etc etc. If more than 20% of any given minute can be spent locked down, the mechanic is broken.

 

Lastly, like WoW, ANY dps should immediately remove cc. CC is an escape/defensive mechanism. Used offensively is just another example of failed game design.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Harringtonn
Correcting

[TUXs]

Love the game.

 

Just can't understand what is so difficult about fixing diminishing returns in pvp? How does it make sense to your developers to allow for chain - full duration - stuns?

 

WoW fixed it YEARS ago. HIRE A COMPETENT DEVELOPER.

 

It's absurd you would allow such a simple mechanic to ruin pvp for so many.

 

Do more people have to quit to get your attention?

 

Seriously, what does it take?

People have complained about this since launch...know what Bioware did? They made it WORSE!

 

You're 100% correct...but Bioware doesn't care.

[Racter]

The problem is chain ccs.

 

Movement/impairing should not be able to occur more than 1X every 20-30 seconds. And yes, I do mean from multiple sources.

 

Problem at the moment. Sorc stunned - 6 secs. Op stunned 6 secs. etc etc. If more than 20% of any given minute can be spent locked down, the mechanic is broken.

 

Lastly, like WoW, ANY dps should immediately remove cc. CC is an escape/defensive mechanism. Used offensively is just another example of failed game design.

 

This is not how CC works in WoW dude. This game's cc always reliably breaks on damage, except for hard stuns, which do not break on damage, are not intended to break on damage and do not break on damage. I don't even know how you got the impression that WoW CC was better, you could up until fairly recently (and maybe even now) cc someone out literally forever with a rogue+mage/lock. Since Vanilla a Rogue has been able to 100-0 you in stuns if you don't get peeled. Half of that game's life, Fear, which is like Sorc/Sage Whirlwind/Lift in this game except on NO COOLDOWN, was basically a stun. I've hit people for 3/4 of their health without it breaking in previous expansions (they finally toned it down end of mop-start of wod sometime, wasn't around for it).

 

The only damage you can have rolling on someone without breaking a mez in this game is Lethality/VIrulence dots during sap/flash bang. Every single other mez in this game breaks on damage instantly. Low Slash has a bit of a recovery animation for some reason that makes it basically a 1s stun but it's 1s, not turning the tide with a 1s stun lol

 

Additionally, CC is used almost entirely offensively in WoW. Nova into burst. Shatter into burst. CS/KS into burst. DC into burst. Strangulate into burst. EL-OH-EL INCARNATION that literally STUNS YOU WITH EVERY SINGLE HIT FOR THIRTY SECONDS (granted, it DRs out, but that doesn't matter, you can't trinket it til the 4th hit and a feral going mongo has killed you by then 8/10 times). The only defensive CC you will usually see is people kiting or locking someone out during offensive CDs.

 

Stuns in this game are 5s at most (talented PT hardstun), most are 4s (every other normal stun), one at 3.5 (talented Carb), two at 2 (Engineering Sniper thing if they still have it, no one plays Eng so not sure, and Spike from Sins). This game has infinitely less complex CC than WoW, with far, far less potential time spent CC'd than WoW. A good Rogue by himself can cc someone for 30s+. The absolute longest you can be chained in this game is 16s.

 

The only difference is there is no diminishing return on snares, and with the resolve system probably no realistic way to implement them, beyond being immune when whitebarred.

[Harringtonn]

Partially correct.

 

Mostly incorrect.

 

These are the types of discussions between players (dude) that go nowhere.

 

The point about WoW is their mechanic WORKS. SWTOR needs to fix this.

[NikSunrider]

Honestly, I've seen a lot worse in PvP. SWTOR has reasonable CC durations. Except the OOC daze that every stealth class seems to get. Why does it last so ridiculously long on players? I think 5s would be acceptable, but this is just silly.

Apart from that, CC isn't so bad.

 

Your Awe/Intimidating roar lasts the same, exact 8 seconds, as does an Operative's tranq or a Sin's Mind Trap.

 

Soft-stuns are actaully balanced. The point of a softstun is to trap an opponent, and cap an objective - notice how most channels for objectives (except AHG and VS defuse) are 8s? It forces the attacker to play smart, and the defender.

 

Pandering to the inexperienced player is a surefire way to break a game (or any system, for that matter) even more than it is broke nalready. If you don't want to be suseptible to soft stuns, then don't camp the node - stay 30-32m away from it, force the stealther to move between you and the node, this will give you time to interrupt him when the softstun ends.

 

Don't use your breaker on the first sap, either. His second sap will fill your resolve bar, then and only then break it.

 

The problem is chain ccs.

 

Movement/impairing should not be able to occur more than 1X every 20-30 seconds. And yes, I do mean from multiple sources.

 

Problem at the moment. Sorc stunned - 6 secs. Op stunned 6 secs. etc etc. If more than 20% of any given minute can be spent locked down, the mechanic is broken.

 

Lastly, like WoW, ANY dps should immediately remove cc. CC is an escape/defensive mechanism. Used offensively is just another example of failed game design.

 

If you like WoW so much, go play it. No-one is stopping you. The thing is, SWTOR, is neither a WOW-killer, nor WOW 2.0. Despite being an MMO, it has its own quirks, so comparing the two games is not exactly fair to either. I can talk about how poorly WoW handles .... space combat!!!!! or crafting, or anything - it is a matter of perspective, and your statements I can easily surmise that you came into SWTOR expecting it to be just like WoW, but in SPACE!!! - and this is a different game, from a diffrent developer.

 

Secondly, your arguments make very little sense. "100% chain cc" and "20% of every minute" and "6s stun" - could you please make up your mind and share some math? A minute has 60 seconds, 60 / 6 = 10; not 20.

 

SWTOR is an MMO that acronym means massively, (and) multiplayer online game. Chain-stuns, just as focus-fire, are perfectly legal, and should be encouraged.

 

If you want to play solo, play a solo or 1v1 game. We already have a lockout on Cybertech grenades - this means that they are hardly usable in arenas as they were intended - an escape mechanism - because people are in close proximity, and one sorc escaping being flatted, will debuff everyone for 3min.

 

The moment we start pandering to the single-player, SWTOR becomes an RPG with global chat, and loses most of what still makes it MMO. So, only 1 stun from 1 person can affect you? What next? Only 1 sin can deal damage to you?

 

People have complained about this since launch...know what Bioware did? They made it WORSE!

 

You're 100% correct...but Bioware doesn't care.

 

ELI5 how they made it worse, please?

 

3.3 brought MOAR improvements into the CC world.

 

Yes, you are 100% correct that people have complained since launch, but they also wanted proper space missions, chat bubbles, and many other things - we don't always get what we want, do we?

 

Wel, we get it even less if we start yelling and raving, especially when we do it on the forums run by the people developing it.

 

I seriously pity whoever works in CS.

 

Why do you not see me complaining so much? Maybe it is just my temprement, maybe - I learned to live with things that are not ideal, or that do not fit my view of an ideal world.

 

Trust me, it was a hard, hard, hard lesson to learn, but 6 years of depression - you either learn, or you spend the rest of your life in a gutter - I'd rather learn.

[Harringtonn]

Broken mechanics aren't justified by "it's a different game"

 

If the brakes on a ford work and a chevy don't, is it your position chevy shouldn't fix them?

 

My point is about chain cc's.

 

Defend how you can be cc'd more than, say 10 seconds out of every minute? In fact, you can be cc'd over 50% of that minute at present. And, what exactly is your objection to damage breaking cc - since you noted above that you agree it's a defensive mechanic? The issue is simple, if you are attacked by two people, they should NOT be able to trade cc's on you effectively eliminating you entirely. If that's the game design, then yea, turn it into an RPG because that sort of silliness doesn't require further discussion.

 

Seems to me your position is that cc is and should be used offensively. If that is the case, then all classes need to have the same cc's giving the same durations to effect balance. Should be fun as hell with 1/2 of very pvp match being permanently cc'd right? yea.

 

That sound reasonable to you? If it does, then you apparently work at EA/BIO. Hell you might even be the developer of this mess.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Harringtonn
Correcting

[NikSunrider]

I am honoured!

 

This is the first time someone has accused me of being a developer! Hey, Eric, Alex? Can I join the team?

 

In all seriousness, "breaks on a chevy" is not the correct argument. The correct argument is that you have a Nissan XTrail on 3liltres of diesel, and some puky Hyundi on 1.5litre petrol engine - one will have better acceleration, one will have better parking/size - two things of the same genre, just in different directions.

 

I must ask though, do you even know what "CC" is? Rather, how many warzones have you played?

 

It seems to me that the answer is close to zero, because you do not seem to grasp mechanics, and furthermore, I must regretfully conclude that you are a troll (or else ridiculously self-absorbed), as you do not seem to acknowledge the arguments of other people in your responses, fail to use terminology appropriately, do not show even a moderate understanding of the subject, and furthermore, repeat et nausium, one stagnant viewpoint, regardless of what argument is raised.

 

May the Force be with you.

[Harringtonn]

I am honoured!

 

This is the first time someone has accused me of being a developer! Hey, Eric, Alex? Can I join the team?

 

In all seriousness, "breaks on a chevy" is not the correct argument. The correct argument is that you have a Nissan XTrail on 3liltres of diesel, and some puky Hyundi on 1.5litre petrol engine - one will have better acceleration, one will have better parking/size - two things of the same genre, just in different directions.

 

I must ask though, do you even know what "CC" is? Rather, how many warzones have you played?

 

It seems to me that the answer is close to zero, because you do not seem to grasp mechanics, and furthermore, I must regretfully conclude that you are a troll (or else ridiculously self-absorbed), as you do not seem to acknowledge the arguments of other people in your responses, fail to use terminology appropriately, do not show even a moderate understanding of the subject, and furthermore, repeat et nausium, one stagnant viewpoint, regardless of what argument is raised.

 

May the Force be with you.

 

Thank you for your kind words and ridiculous metaphor, all while avoiding the most basic questions. Convenient way of arguing right?

 

Let's see if we can make this more simple for you.

 

Is it your position that cc (crowd control) should be an offensive utility?

Is it your position that there should be no diminishing returns?

Is it your position that the current mechanic is working optimally?

 

If the answer to the above questions is yes, then you sir are the troll.

 

May the force enlighten you. And, by the way, answering on behalf of the Developers? Brown nose much?

 

Makes me laugh. How about we let the DEVELOPERS respond?

 

Assuming they read these forums, it would be most appreciated to hear from them. Not some clown professing to know better and speak for them

[Savej]

CC is just a way for BW (or any dev) to slow down the game.

 

There are people who think that the use of cc adds a tactical element to the game but it doesn't really. Sure the proper use of cc takes some skill/intelligence... but dealing with an enemy that isn't cc'd takes far more skill and ability.

 

Imagine a game of football where everyone gets grenades that mezz half the enemy team for 8 seconds to use every 60 seconds: That game of football would rapidly turn into a "strategic" mezz fest and the use of those grenades would trump all other skill and ability and tactics: every formation, every trick play, every feint, every fast runner or tough defense, would very suddenly become very irrelevant when half the team is standing around doing nothing for half the play. If you think about it for 60 seconds you would have to concede that no one would play that game. No one would watch that game.

 

Wow handled CC better when I played it (eventually - but iniitial versions had 35+ second sap/sheeps and rogue stun locks went on for too long). Some classes had stuns and/or roots and/or kbs and others had very little cc at all. Here almost everyone has aoe ccs in overabundance on very short CDs, much shorter than Wow's were. Other than BW's need to slow people down I'm not at all sure why. If anything was very well illustrated in EA's pvp mmo attempt (WAR): too much CC kills an endgame pvp (not that it was just cc that killed that game). The Devs of that did get clued in eventually but it was too late. It's just another sad example of BW stubbornly, willfully refusing to learn from any of the mistakes or dynamics of other MMOs.. Oh well.

 

BW did, at one point, concede that there was too much cc in their game: they reduced the range on hard stuns, narrowed the aoe of overload (but increased it's range), introduced bubblestun and broke resolve, all in one patch that did in fact make cc much worse. Ranked 8s teams were agreeing ahead of time not to use the bubblestun and that situation lasted many many months.. This game isn't a total loss or I wouldn't be playing it but it's cc dynamics are almost the worst I've worked with.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Savej

[DariusCalera]

Makes me laugh. How about we let the DEVELOPERS respond?

 

Assuming they read these forums, it would be most appreciated to hear from them. Not some clown professing to know better and speak for them

 

The devs might read the PvP forums but they won't respond to this. If they did, there is the possibility of having to admit that they screwed something up.

 

As for the WoW/SWToR comparisons some of them are indeed valid. Take arenas for example, WoW tried them long before SWToR and they found out that they were a bad idea because they discovered that balancing around them was a nightmare. SWToR introduces them and there were numerous threads referring back to the WoW dev's comments on the matter and players themselves trying to tell the devs that they were a bad idea because of the already mentioned balancing issues.

 

But, they went live anyway and the game is having the same balancing issues that were warned about. But I highly doubt you'll ever see a SWToR dev admit that they were a bad idea.

[Volthammer]

People have complained about this since launch...know what Bioware did? They made it WORSE!

 

You're 100% correct...but Bioware doesn't care.

 

Thank you, my brotha from anotha motha. Thank you. Get hard stunned in a desperate situation so you use your breaker and....get re-chain stunned for at least 8 seconds till you die jittering and twicthing. And numerous variations of that.

[muXic]

I completely agree that the diminishing returns are completely broken in SWTOR. I love this game but being consistently stunned and stabbed to death is ridiculous. This really needs to get fixed or switch to a system like in PvE OPS where if u are CCed and someone hits you then it breaks it. I think if that was implemented then u would see it only being used for defensive instead of offensive with chain stuns.

[Giliodor]

Your Awe/Intimidating roar lasts the same, exact 8 seconds, as does an Operative's tranq or a Sin's Mind Trap.

 

Soft-stuns are actaully balanced. The point of a softstun is to trap an opponent, and cap an objective - notice how most channels for objectives (except AHG and VS defuse) are 8s? It forces the attacker to play smart, and the defender.

 

Pandering to the inexperienced player is a surefire way to break a game (or any system, for that matter) even more than it is broke nalready. If you don't want to be suseptible to soft stuns, then don't camp the node - stay 30-32m away from it, force the stealther to move between you and the node, this will give you time to interrupt him when the softstun ends.

 

Don't use your breaker on the first sap, either. His second sap will fill your resolve bar, then and only then break it.

 

Yeah, I know how it works. I also know Intimidating Roar has the same duration, but knights/warriors need that in the midst of combat, where it is likely to be broken, and not when capping a node. Even if they do try to use it for capping, they don't have a second CC skill of sufficient duration to follow it up, after the IR is broken.

I do know how to guard a node, and that is not my concern. It's helplessly watching how teammates are being slaughtered because I am sapped in the back. This happens in arena as well.

[Xanas]

Your Awe/Intimidating roar lasts the same, exact 8 seconds, as does an Operative's tranq or a Sin's Mind Trap.

 

Soft-stuns are actaully balanced. The point of a softstun is to trap an opponent, and cap an objective - notice how most channels for objectives (except AHG and VS defuse) are 8s? It forces the attacker to play smart, and the defender.

 

Pandering to the inexperienced player is a surefire way to break a game (or any system, for that matter) even more than it is broke nalready. If you don't want to be suseptible to soft stuns, then don't camp the node - stay 30-32m away from it, force the stealther to move between you and the node, this will give you time to interrupt him when the softstun ends.

 

Don't use your breaker on the first sap, either. His second sap will fill your resolve bar, then and only then break it.

 

 

 

If you like WoW so much, go play it. No-one is stopping you. The thing is, SWTOR, is neither a WOW-killer, nor WOW 2.0. Despite being an MMO, it has its own quirks, so comparing the two games is not exactly fair to either. I can talk about how poorly WoW handles .... space combat!!!!! or crafting, or anything - it is a matter of perspective, and your statements I can easily surmise that you came into SWTOR expecting it to be just like WoW, but in SPACE!!! - and this is a different game, from a diffrent developer.

 

Secondly, your arguments make very little sense. "100% chain cc" and "20% of every minute" and "6s stun" - could you please make up your mind and share some math? A minute has 60 seconds, 60 / 6 = 10; not 20.

 

SWTOR is an MMO that acronym means massively, (and) multiplayer online game. Chain-stuns, just as focus-fire, are perfectly legal, and should be encouraged.

 

If you want to play solo, play a solo or 1v1 game. We already have a lockout on Cybertech grenades - this means that they are hardly usable in arenas as they were intended - an escape mechanism - because people are in close proximity, and one sorc escaping being flatted, will debuff everyone for 3min.

 

The moment we start pandering to the single-player, SWTOR becomes an RPG with global chat, and loses most of what still makes it MMO. So, only 1 stun from 1 person can affect you? What next? Only 1 sin can deal damage to you?

 

 

 

ELI5 how they made it worse, please?

 

3.3 brought MOAR improvements into the CC world.

 

Yes, you are 100% correct that people have complained since launch, but they also wanted proper space missions, chat bubbles, and many other things - we don't always get what we want, do we?

 

Wel, we get it even less if we start yelling and raving, especially when we do it on the forums run by the people developing it.

 

I seriously pity whoever works in CS.

 

Why do you not see me complaining so much? Maybe it is just my temprement, maybe - I learned to live with things that are not ideal, or that do not fit my view of an ideal world.

 

Trust me, it was a hard, hard, hard lesson to learn, but 6 years of depression - you either learn, or you spend the rest of your life in a gutter - I'd rather learn.

 

Care to tell me how far do I need to be to interrupt a cap when 2 stealth are working together? Care to tell me what I am supposed to do when a shadow/sin saps and teleports right back to the node eliminating the travel distance?

The answer is only a few classes can guard. It does not even matter if you are far or not. Personally I hate this. Its bad design. All classes should be able to guard and not be a 100% loss chance if the enemy is competent and can coordinate even a tiny bit. For your information I play a jugg/guardian.

If the balancing means you can't CC and cap and you have to lure the player away or kill him then so be it. I will take this over having only certain classes with the ability to defend. Also and yes, I defended many times even from sins or multiple stealth classes but balancing should not be done around bad players.

 

Now about WoW. Diminishing returns are SO much better then the white bar in this game. WAY better. How many times did you end up in the spawn zone with a white bar? That means the system is broken. With diminishing returns you get less and less CC'ed and even if you end up in the spawn area you still used you "white bar". With the system in place here you got CC'ed to death with no compensation.

Telling him to go play WoW is nonsense. If they have a better system in place for this is perfectly viable to compare. Instead of telling him to go play WoW perhaps we could improve mechanics of this game even if it means copying from other games.

[denpic]

Cc serves its purpose just fine in Swtor, if you think you should never ever get sap capped or stunned locked to death and always live long enough to use your white bar.. well sorry this game is not for you.

 

What's with people thinking they should win every fight every time?

[Virus_Bot]

chaining cc is a skill.

If op gets caught in it and doesn't have a break that's tough luck for him.

If you cant deal with that, then pvp is not for you.

[Xanas]

Cc serves its purpose just fine in Swtor, if you think you should never ever get sap capped or stunned locked to death and always live long enough to use your white bar.. well sorry this game is not for you.

 

What's with people thinking they should win every fight every time?

 

As long as you don't make mistakes you should NEVER get sapped cap. If you get sapped cap because of the class you choose to play is a huge problem in my book.

[power-alex]

usual story. Engage - get whitebarred almost instantly, use breaker then for the next 2 minutes be chain stunned and killed.

[Savej]

Awe last 6 seconds, btw - people saying '8' are wrong.

 

Cc serves its purpose just fine in Swtor, if you think you should never ever get sap capped or stunned locked to death and always live long enough to use your white bar.. well sorry this game is not for you.

 

What's with people thinking they should win every fight every time?

 

Nice straw man. Who exactly said "never ever"? But... I have "never ever" been sap-capped unless there's 2 stealth and I'm the lone guard playing a visible character. That has nothing to do with the fact that there's too much cc in this game or that BW has admitted that in the past.

[TUXs]

ELI5 how they made it worse, please?

 

3.3 brought MOAR improvements into the CC world.

 

Yes, you are 100% correct that people have complained since launch, but they also wanted proper space missions, chat bubbles, and many other things - we don't always get what we want, do we?

 

Wel, we get it even less if we start yelling and raving, especially when we do it on the forums run by the people developing it.

 

Why do you not see me complaining so much? Maybe it is just my temprement, maybe - I learned to live with things that are not ideal, or that do not fit my view of an ideal world.

 

Trust me, it was a hard, hard, hard lesson to learn, but 6 years of depression - you either learn, or you spend the rest of your life in a gutter - I'd rather learn.

They made CC's worse when they removed overlapping stuns building resolve way back. 3.3 helped of course, but it's a minor change, not the change we need.

 

PvP is unlike any of your examples - PvP can't be done solo, it REQUIRES other players to want to participate...the current insane abundance of CC's absolutely turns people off to PvP and that hurts the pool of players willing to do it. Chat bubbles and space missions aren't even on the same plane.

 

Wait, so you think we'll get LESS PvP development if we complain? Um....big deal?! We get next to nothing as it is...less won't even be noticed. And seriously...what absolute FOLLY! Maybe it's in your persona to sit silently in the back of the room and not step forward to speak your mind, but that's not how I am. I'd rather speak my mind (in a reasonable way) and try to get my point across than to sit idly by, pretending I have no influence on my surroundings.

 

Bottom line - I'm a customer here. Bioware isn't giving me gifts...I'm paying for a service (entertainment), and unlike most forms of entertainment we have available to us, we actually CAN influence change here. But please, continue doing nothing and believing you don't matter...I'll do my thing while you do yours.

[anwg]

Seriously? WoW's cc chains are much much worse.

 

The only spec that's out of whack CC wise in this game is deception.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The problem is chain ccs.

 

Mine as well. As soon as the CC from one player ends, the next one takes over.

 

My most favourite is the Force Choke applied to me combined with a strong DOT by 2 or even 3 players at the same time.

[Glower]

what does it take to get you to fix a long standing F'up?

 

 

Look at first quote form my sig. Bioware rule #1 and direct answer to all your questions!

In other words "the laziness"

Edited September 16, 2015 by Glower