Conquest Changes in Fallen Empire

[dscount]

I'm a crafter.. I spent millions on getting my wins and title(s) even. I completely agree that crafting is WAY overboard, but they (BIOWARE) need to properly balance instead of NUKE into ground. Especially since someone fell asleep at the STATS helm apparently (What a YEAR of metrics told you what we have been saying since the 2nd and 3rd week of conquests). I also agree that smaller guilds still need some sort of OPTION that allows them to compete (no perfect answer here just short of some sort of bonus system, but that would get abused I'm 100% positive). Maybe a token to each top 10 that gives them xx points the following week when used. (NONE Tradable BoP)

 

You can't just rip out a single component and expect everyone to jump onboard with the lower points carrot. Not likely to happen.

 

NOW.. unlock those weekly "Per legacy" missions for PVE and maybe tie conquests to specific planets Daily Heroic's then you might have actually done what the conquest model should have been like when it launched.

 

AGAIN.. I'm pretty sure personal conquest rewards have a BIG FAT CARROT attached to them in 4.0, but for some unknown reason BW is sitting on that information. Why? I've no idea, but they have a 1950's generation marketing team apparently and likely a half asleep Business Intelligence group.

 

All that ASIDE.. a LOT of people are going to just STOP doing conquest due to PVP/GSF all of a sudden being the #1/#2 means to win conquests. (Great for PVP guilds, but not so much for those of us that refuse to PVP)

 

GEE.. .would be nice to get a YELLOW POST some time on this one, but it's Friday so the Microphone will likely get dropped to allow everyone to get less civil over the weekend. So far it's been pretty solid feedback and I hope they listen and at least give it some thought.

Edited September 11, 2015 by dscount

[Aries_cz]

Really Aries, telling someone not to be completely useless was something you had to do? Give me a break. I been in groups where people will yell and be jerks because they are like that. I am a medic and I have done hard mode operations and flashpoints with no problems. I have the correct gear and I damn well know what I am doing but yet when I did group finder this happened to me as well. Even my friends, who are tanks are fed up with group finder and the attitudes that are in group finder lately.

 

You do know there are idiots out there in group finder that will be jerks because maybe they "gasp" have to blame someone else. Maybe instead of telling someone they are useless you might want to understand that there are jerks out there in group finder and they might be the problem.

 

I have yet to meet a group where "yelling" occurrs before somebody royally ***** up something for several times (one wipe can happen to everybody), or maybe that EU servers are more civilized and mature about this than Yanks...

 

I did not intend to insult anybody, just stating that yelling does not occur unless you (the metaphorical you, not you as in you, casi) mess up.

[Heat-Wave]

AGAIN.. I'm pretty sure personal conquest rewards have a BIG FAT CARROT attached to them in 4.0, but for some unknown reason BW is sitting on that information. Why? I've no idea, but they have a 1950's generation marketing team apparently and likely a half asleep Business Intelligence group.

 

I'll help you out, since you didn't want to say it...

 

Unless plans change, the super rare purple operations mat (matter transubstantiator) is going to be a reward in conquest in 4.0. Since we aren't getting a new mat tier, this is a big deal.

 

This of course is speculation... but it is the good kind, the thoughtful kind, the more likely to happen than not kind...

[Heat-Wave]

I have yet to meet a group where "yelling" occurrs before somebody royally ***** up something for several times (one wipe can happen to everybody), or maybe that EU servers are more civilized and mature about this than Yanks...

 

I did not intend to insult anybody, just stating that yelling does not occur unless you (the metaphorical you, not you as in you, casi) mess up.

 

^ wipes happen, not always due to anyone being at fault.

 

RNG, cat jumps on keyboard, lag, mouse battery died, someone DCed, someone had someone knock on the door, wife/husband/kid aggro, and general brain farts...

 

It is when it happens three times in a row due to someone being stupid, standing in stupid, geared with stupid, or just stupid in general, that it gets annoying.

 

And frankly, I don't yell, yelling is a waste of time, I'll either leave or vote kick if it is a problem.

[dscount]

I'll help you out, since you didn't want to say it...

 

Unless plans change, the super rare purple operations mat (matter transubstantiator) is going to be a reward in conquest in 4.0. Since we aren't getting a new mat tier, this is a big deal.

 

This of course is speculation... but it is the good kind, the thoughtful kind, the more likely to happen than not kind...

Chuckle.. actually you are mostly correct that it IS a purple crafting mat, but I'm hearing reward is tied to a new one named "Strategic Resource Matrix" or so the unofficial speculation of others has mentioned. How that fits into the crafting tier is anyone's guess at this point, but they have yet to say BOO about crafting. (see 1950's comment)

Edited September 11, 2015 by dscount

[Heat-Wave]

172, 178 and 186 a mix of those regardless of optimized or not / augmented or not is good enough for any HM flashpoint with the exception of blood hunt unless the player knows what hes doing (i.e rotation)

 

Rakata: no hard bosses, just explain mechanics such as cleansing the fire immobilization and to stay away from people / jakarro if they have circles.

Rishi: stand under shield, kill all bosses at the same time unless you think your healer can heal through it.

Manaan: Explain mechanics, first boss can be an issue if he gets to shot gun too long but if the tank can juggle the grapples onto the boss then the down time from that shouldn't make it hard on the healer. Rest of the flashpoint is just stay outta stupid, hug tank and drag under fire, easy peasy.

Tython: stay outta stupid and designate corners, easy peasy.

Korriban: Stay outta stupid, pop and buffs / offensive CDs during his soft enrage, dont hug eachother otherwise laser zaps both. Not that hard.

 

I thought about your post some more...

 

You say "Not that hard", but from the people I meet in GF, apparently... yes it is!

 

We were all new once, not everyone is an expert. When you get 4 good people together, boy it can be sweet... get 4 noobs together and... ouch time!

 

Gear is the gel that smoothes over little mistakes... Yes, they are all doable in 178 unaugmented gear, by experts... average players need more help, thus the need for better gear.

 

4 people in 192 token gear with crafted bits added and full augments is a sweet thing to watch. 4 noobs in 186 basic comms is painful to watch. So it isn't all about gear, but I can't tell at a glance what your skill level is.

 

However, if you show up in 6 piece set bonus fully augmented and everything else 198, I can hazzard a guess that you're not stupid. Usually... but... I've seen that too... More than once I've asked myself, "where the heck did you get your gear, you can't play worth a darn".

 

Othertimes I've seen people play beyond their gear, usually I check their achievements and they have over 20k and I'm like, "ahh, that is how, they have 15 toons and are experts.

 

Speaking of achievements, I'm about to ding 35k, which isn't the end all be all, but it does mean I've done this once or twice.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I thought about your post some more...

 

You say "Not that hard", but from the people I meet in GF, apparently... yes it is!

 

We were all new once, not everyone is an expert. When you get 4 good people together, boy it can be sweet... get 4 noobs together and... ouch time!

 

Gear is the gel that smoothes over little mistakes... Yes, they are all doable in 178 unaugmented gear, by experts... average players need more help, thus the need for better gear.

 

4 people in 192 token gear with crafted bits added and full augments is a sweet thing to watch. 4 noobs in 186 basic comms is painful to watch. So it isn't all about gear, but I can't tell at a glance what your skill level is.

 

However, if you show up in 6 piece set bonus fully augmented and everything else 198, I can hazzard a guess that you're not stupid. Usually... but... I've seen that too... More than once I've asked myself, "where the heck did you get your gear, you can't play worth a darn".

 

Othertimes I've seen people play beyond their gear, usually I check their achievements and they have over 20k and I'm like, "ahh, that is how, they have 15 toons and are experts.

 

Speaking of achievements, I'm about to ding 35k, which isn't the end all be all, but it does mean I've done this once or twice.

 

Prolly showed chesticles for loot.

[jojobanutz]

I never called you (or anyone) and idiot.

In that case , I apologise

 

And no lol, there's been NO thoughtful argument for keeping it how it is. Anyone being honest about this, can easily see that crafting was outrageously rewarding.

Yes there has, you just refuse to acknowledge the fact. And I am being completely honest when I state that imo crafting is the ONLY current way for small guilds to have any chance at all of grabbing an occasional planet win. Yes, crafting is rewarding, as it should be. It costs a huge amount of creds!

 

Disagree if you like...doesn't make you any more right though.

I do indeed disagree. And likwise, right back at you!

[Monumenta]

Yes there has, you just refuse to acknowledge the fact. And I am being completely honest when I state that imo crafting is the ONLY current way for small guilds to have any chance at all of grabbing an occasional planet win. Yes, crafting is rewarding, as it should be. It costs a huge amount of creds!

 

Have you ever thought small guilds shouldn't be in the running for planet conquering? Does a small guild conquering a planet make sense to you? This is a basic situation of want vs need.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Have you ever thought small guilds shouldn't be in the running for planet conquering? Does a small guild conquering a planet make sense to you? This is a basic situation of want vs need.

 

If a small guild can manage to make a considerable impact then sure.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Because reactions like that would be knee-jerk reactions.

 

Just because a handful of people on the forum make dozens of topic and whine about change that has not yet been implemented, it doesn't mean the change will be bad, and at most, they would tell you "we will wait and see how it works when actual gameplay data get collated"

 

My point has clearly gone wayyy over your head.

 

Participating in the community != knee jerk reaction.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

The problem with that is that it typically takes about a year for the present development/community team to react to such changes.

 

-snip rest-.

 

That's not entirely true. The slot machine fiasco was fixed fairly quickly though super over nerfed.

That, I assume, was from the community reaction which was much more mixed than the reaction to this change which is mostly negative.

 

Granted that at least went live so I don't hold hope for them changing anything until they at least launch it but then I really don't think they care about conquest.

 

This change is the least amount of work possible for them to do.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It's the first best step imo, because without spam crafting, there is ZERO way to win Conquests. There's nothing more monopolizing than crafting...there's nothing that even comes slightly close to it either.

 

Is it what "I" would do? Hell no. There are a ton of other things that we can both agree upon that should be done - repeatable activities being a key thing, whether that's crafting (reasonably), PvP, GSF, Ops, FPs or whatever...this isn't all I would do or how I'd do it myself.

 

I'm not anti crafting...I honestly don't care HOW you spend your time playing, as long as YOU are happy doing it. I WANT crafters to have a way to compete in Conquests too...just not monopolize it...which is what they currently do.

 

OK and again it's not the best first step it's the worst first step. Being we are talking about this change and not crafting itself.

 

You basically say so yourself by saying their are a ton of other changes we could do that would ideally be better than this.

 

Crafting shouldn't monopolise conquest I agree, it shouldn't be nerfed to nothingness to try fix that. IT's just plain lazy and not a good step at all.

 

I agree...a few words here would go a looooong way to easing some players frustrations. I just don't know what Eric is allowed to say or do though...I highly doubt he has the freedom to just reply though. I wish they'd do/say more, but I believe their hands are tied more than you think.

 

I see it like this then. Either he is allowed and just doesn't bother replying and thus isn't doing his job properly ( imo of course, I don't know what his job description and kpi's are but it's what I would expect from a community manager and team in the minimum ) or he isn't allowed and then you get to the point that his position is basically redundant because he might as put "message boy" in his signature as it would be more accurate.

 

Either way ... you can see something quite wrong with how Bioware are managing their community interaction and that connection to them and us is ... Eric.

[MiloUto]

Regarding conquest, any solution is simply going to favor one group of players over another. Crafting could be reduced to 100 points per item, or made a limit of X per toon/legacy/week, etc. but that doesn't really solve the issue, which is that one playstyle can earn more points per hour than another.

 

One possible option would be to have rotating theme weeks, to give everyone a shot. Some weeks, crafting would be the "way to win", other weeks, PvP would be the "way to win", still others would have PvE as the "way to win".

 

Rather than fight it, give everyone a shot.

 

So Week 1 you have repeatable PvE stuff like operations, flashpoints, heroics, world bosses, dailies, weeklies, etc. Crafting and PvP can be there, but they are all 1 time objectives such as "play 10 warzones for 1,000 points", or "complete the warzone weekly for 2,000 points". Crafting could be "make 10 war supplies for 2,000 points" or "make 10 invasion force for 3,000 points".

 

Week 2 you have repeatable PvP objectives, you get 1,000 points for every 10 warzones you win, you get points for every match played, etc. PvE and crafting would be one time objectives.

 

Week 3 is crafting week. PvP and PvE are not repeatable, similar to above, but crafting, have at it...

 

Another option is to specifically setup different planets each week to be focused on something different. Example:

 

Invade Taris this week, crafting free for all, Invade Nar Shaddaa this week, PvP free for all, Invade Ilum this week, PvE free for all. So make items repeatable for specific planets, and rotate which planets are for which repeatables from week to week so over time, everyone gets a shot at every planet with every play style.

 

Of course the above is slightly harder to plan for and program for than the current system, but frankly had it been planed that way from the start, it wouldn't be THAT bad.... And it is a perfect example of how to take care of everyone and not drop the nerf nuke from orbit.

 

 

----

 

Another point, several people have said that small guilds need their own bracket. Look at boxing, you don't put a lightweight in with a heavyweight, that would be stupid.

 

So why not offer multiple guild sizes? Pro Tip: You can put this in the CM and make money Bioware!.

 

Standard guild would be up to 100 toons, that is free. Large to 500 toons, and Super Unlimited Guild to 2,000 toons.

 

Small groups can complete in the 100 toon class, normal guilds (and those grandfathered) in the 500 toon class, and a new class of 2,000 toon Super Unimited Class. Charge 14,500 CC ($99) for an upgrade to the 2,000 toon Super Unlimited Class and use the $99 (times many guilds) towards a decent server upgrade. Of course this token would be tradable and sellable so if you want to use credits, you can buy it off the GTN

.

 

 

DEAR Bioware,

 

PLEASE HIRE THIS PERSON TODAY!!!!!

[Knockerz]

I thought about your post some more...

 

You say "Not that hard", but from the people I meet in GF, apparently... yes it is!

 

We were all new once, not everyone is an expert. When you get 4 good people together, boy it can be sweet... get 4 noobs together and... ouch time!

 

Gear is the gel that smoothes over little mistakes... Yes, they are all doable in 178 unaugmented gear, by experts... average players need more help, thus the need for better gear.

 

4 people in 192 token gear with crafted bits added and full augments is a sweet thing to watch. 4 noobs in 186 basic comms is painful to watch. So it isn't all about gear, but I can't tell at a glance what your skill level is.

 

However, if you show up in 6 piece set bonus fully augmented and everything else 198, I can hazzard a guess that you're not stupid. Usually... but... I've seen that too... More than once I've asked myself, "where the heck did you get your gear, you can't play worth a darn".

 

Othertimes I've seen people play beyond their gear, usually I check their achievements and they have over 20k and I'm like, "ahh, that is how, they have 15 toons and are experts.

 

Speaking of achievements, I'm about to ding 35k, which isn't the end all be all, but it does mean I've done this once or twice.

 

You should change your sig to the old rock, paper, and scissor sig.

[AdrianDmitruk]

That's not entirely true. The slot machine fiasco was fixed fairly quickly though super over nerfed.

That, I assume, was from the community reaction which was much more mixed than the reaction to this change which is mostly negative.

 

Granted that at least went live so I don't hold hope for them changing anything until they at least launch it but then I really don't think they care about conquest.

 

This change is the least amount of work possible for them to do.

 

I said typically, not always.

 

The slot machine was a special case of QA fail where not testing the slot machine led to immediate and unpredicted (by Bioware) economic effects. The effective removal of conquests will also have immediate economic effects (huge mat, and therefore credit, sink removed, old mats become worthless), but those effects are very predictable (the economy basically reverts to what it was before conquest was implemented).

 

So, the data will easily show that yes they screwed up if they wanted that mat/credit sink to be there, but as the economy had been like that at one point before it won't necessitate an emergency hotfix to correct the economy and therefore Bioware is unlikely to re-evaluate it for a year. (Not saying it can't happen, but let's just say that the usual Bioware silence does not bode well.)

 

Have you ever thought small guilds shouldn't be in the running for planet conquering? Does a small guild conquering a planet make sense to you? This is a basic situation of want vs need.

 

Should small guilds also be completely unable to expand their guild flagships by running content that is, well, designed to expand them?

 

Because right now one of the glaring issues with conquests is that the personal rewards suck so horribly that a guild HAS to be able to place in the top 10 for conquests to have any meaning at all. That is quite a separate issue from guilds being able to spam millions and millions of points to "craft to win" conquests. Unless your guild is fairly large, there will be no point in doing conquests at all post 4.0, which you might personally agree with, because the personal rewards suck so horribly. But while you're celebrating that, keep in mind that Musco said that Bioware wants to increase conquest participation, not decrease it, which is a huge reason why this change makes so little sense--the effects of the change will run counter to what Bioware says it wants the change to accomplish.

 

That issue can be fixed by decoupling encryptions from the top 10 and moving them to meeting an individualized guild goal that reflects the size of the guild (with smaller guilds expected to have a higher per-capita contribution to reflect the fact that small guilds are easier to coordinate than a large one, for example a guild of 10 might need 35k points per capita, which is well above the new 20k expectation for personal rewards most weeks, while a guild of 100 might need only 15k per capita to get their guild reward). They could also leave encryptions in the top 10 rewards as well, giving guilds who do have the capability of placing an extra incentive to go for it, and/or add other rewards to top 10.

 

Note that telling smaller guilds "lol just go to GTN" is not a solution, as many smaller guilds are proud that they have unlocked expansions for their ships by actually playing the content. Also I'd note that encryptions are not always available on the GTN, especially during weeks where the conquest rewards bug out, which seems to be happening more and more frequently...

[Khevar]

Should small guilds also be completely unable to expand their guild flagships by running content that is, well, designed to expand them?

My small guild expanded our flagship by several rooms simply by fighting the Commanders.

 

There are no other dedicated crafters in the guild but me, and I didn't feel like spending an absurd amount of hours every week being responsible for 90% of our points to put us in the top 10. So Conquest points were not an option.

 

But the commanders were. It worked out just fine.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Khevar

[Monumenta]

My small guild expanded our flagship by several rooms simply by fighting the Commanders.

 

There are no other dedicated crafters in the guild but me, and I didn't feel like spending an absurd amount of hours every week being responsible for 90% of our points to put us in the top 10. So Conquest points were not an option.

 

But the commanders were. It worked out just fine.

 

Mine too, we get on the boards occasionally but commanders are the money. We have 8 rooms open.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Monumenta

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I said typically, not always.

 

The slot machine was a special case of QA fail where not testing the slot machine led to immediate and unpredicted (by Bioware) economic effects. The effective removal of conquests will also have immediate economic effects (huge mat, and therefore credit, sink removed, old mats become worthless), but those effects are very predictable (the economy basically reverts to what it was before conquest was implemented).

 

So, the data will easily show that yes they screwed up if they wanted that mat/credit sink to be there, but as the economy had been like that at one point before it won't necessitate an emergency hotfix to correct the economy and therefore Bioware is unlikely to re-evaluate it for a year. (Not saying it can't happen, but let's just say that the usual Bioware silence does not bode well.)

 

I personally can't see how they couldn't have foreseen the result of the slot machine as it was introduced. Nor the utter worthlessness of it with the nerf they brought in.

 

I wonder if the same people involved in deciding those changes are the people making these changes because there seems to be a rather common lack of logic in both cases.

 

Not sure if the economy will revert back to pre Conquest as back then we also had a bit less money generators.

Not that I need to do them or have even tried but I believe Yavin alone makes quite a lot of credits rather fast?

Point I'm making is the economy won't just go back to how it was, it will inflate quite a lot with the extra credits in circulation and also being created ( mat sellers will need to go elsewhere for their income so no doubt many will revert to dailies if not already doing them ).

[Grayseven]

Talking about the effect on mat prices and the economy doesn't make sense until BW gets around to spilling the beans officially on the previously announced crafting changes.

 

I find it curious that we are 37 days from the launch date of KotFE and have yet to hear any more about the crafting changes since the data was "unofficially released". Until the changes are made public officially, trying to determine the effect of the Conquest change on materials is contraindicated.

[Kalfear]

Talking about the effect on mat prices and the economy doesn't make sense until BW gets around to spilling the beans officially on the previously announced crafting changes.

 

I find it curious that we are 37 days from the launch date of KotFE and have yet to hear any more about the crafting changes since the data was "unofficially released". Until the changes are made public officially, trying to determine the effect of the Conquest change on materials is contraindicated.

 

Honestly all the changes thus far yell to me that they are all but removing crafting from the game

and what little crafting there will be left will be so dumbed down that anyone could quickly and easily do it with no real effort.

 

And I was actually upbeat and positive until this conquest announcement.

 

As it stands for me, I will wait for 4.0 (but I'm now barely playing game anyways as with out Conquest (no reason to restock supplies, what I have will carry me easily to 4.0) I'm down to one day a week ops)

 

If they don't do a complete turn around on this announcement (as they have done so often in the past on things they screw up), think I'll just close down account for a year or so break and see if they can reverse some of these very small minded changes.

 

I have no interest in poor mans PVP warzones. Far better games and products out there to play if your looking for a pvp experience.

 

As excited as I was for flashpoints finally being bumped up to level (should have been happening every level increase if you ask me) its not enough to keep me entertained in game

 

No joystick support for GSF means no GSF for me

 

Conquest really was keeping me in this game since its release. easily 80% of my playing time went to conquest and mat gathering.

 

With out it, there simply not enough game to realistically support.

[Aries_cz]

My point has clearly gone wayyy over your head.

 

Participating in the community != knee jerk reaction.

 

No, your "point" was about Eric going to coders and relay to them that few people are whining about the change that has yet to be implemented, and get from them an answer to how they will change it.

 

You cannot say how you will change something before it is even implemented, as there is no way to know it will need changing. Just because a tiny minority of a tiny minority that posts or reads forums complains is not valid reason to start making any changes. Because doing so would be a knee-jerk reaction (sort of like Valve did with "we are going to Linux, screw Windows" when they thought Windows Store will force them to share the money, which didn't even happen)

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Talking about the effect on mat prices and the economy doesn't make sense until BW gets around to spilling the beans officially on the previously announced crafting changes.

 

I find it curious that we are 37 days from the launch date of KotFE and have yet to hear any more about the crafting changes since the data was "unofficially released". Until the changes are made public officially, trying to determine the effect of the Conquest change on materials is contraindicated.

 

So what? We're talking about what we DO know and not what we don't. I mentioned in my earlier posts that effects on the economy are dependent on if they may have things coming that counter act this change ( and the other changes ) but as it stands from "official" information ... crew skills are taking a hammering.

 

What doesn't make sense is implying we shouldn't have this debate because there might be some magic unknown fix it all information coming. If that were the case we might as well never debate anything ever because there might be something down the track that fixes it.

 

As I see it if we do discuss it and people keep putting forward their distaste for it and other seemingly better solutions then there is more chance BW might just listen at some stage and take some of it on board. If we just didn't bother talking about it at all then nothing would change and we'd be stuck with it ( even though most likely we will be anyway ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No, your "point" was about Eric going to coders and relay to them that few people are whining about the change that has yet to be implemented, and get from them an answer to how they will change it.

 

Not at all, that was just your narrow minded interpretation of what you quoted from me. Try again.

 

TUXs ( whom I was directing that part of my post to from previous discussion on the same topic ) seems to have seen where I was coming from in regards to the community aspect of Eric's role, agree/disagree at least he knows what I mean. You however seem to have missed it completely and thought I expected him to demand changes of the Devs or something silly like that.

Clearly you've taken it out of context hence the ... zoooooom, way over your head.

[Draqsko]

Chuckle.. actually you are mostly correct that it IS a purple crafting mat, but I'm hearing reward is tied to a new one named "Strategic Resource Matrix" or so the unofficial speculation of others has mentioned. How that fits into the crafting tier is anyone's guess at this point, but they have yet to say BOO about crafting. (see 1950's comment)

 

The irony I mentioned in another thread... remove crafting from conquests, reward conquest with crafting mats.