I want to like this game, but the real issues do not get fixed

[Sttm]

By "real issues" I am referring to things like the class designs, the game mechanics, and the many missing basic MMO features or utilities.

 

I'll start with the class designs. Who seem to all share a design goal of having an asinine amount of button bloat. Button bloat being the numerous abilities that are barely different than other abilities or are so weak they are just pointless.

 

My favorite new poster child for this button bloat is the Fly By Attack given to the smuggler I just leveled. Conceptually its kind of cool, having your ship fly over and bomb your target (though how that works indoors...). It is a targeted AOE. It does merely ok damage. So why would anyone use it over Sweeping Gunfire? Which is also a targeted AOE, but it does its damage immediately, and I'd argue a lot more damage (though without a combat log...), and there is no waiting for it to start. So what specific purpose was this Fly By attack trying to fill for the class? It makes no sense.

 

This seems to be the norm with SWTOR class design. Each class has several abilities which are barely better or kind of interesting compared to other abilities. Be it additional attacks or rather silly cooldowns. When you level up a class and you get a new cooldown, only to read it and think, "When will I ever use this silly thing?", and then not bind it, that's not good game design. Cooldowns, abilities, they should be fewer, and far more powerful.

 

Garbage cooldowns like, X ability now is a guaranteed Crit, 1 min CD should go. The 5th plain damage attack should go. In fact all the basic damage attacks that use resources should go. You have so many special abilities that they should be rarely used anyway, and a change to the resource usage of the special abilities can fix any gaps in rotations.

 

Then there is the issue of just poor game mechanics which for some reason have stuck around. Like the cover system. Why are you making me hit a button to able to use Sweeping Gunfire, which I believe is the only ability I have to be in cover to use? Whats the point of this annoyance? It does not seem to really protect my character, it does not feel good to use, and the moving around the game into the terrain cover points is awfully buggy. It also only affects 1 (real) class. Why keep it?

 

Or with the melee classes and giving them Long Channeled Cast Abilities. I quite like the warrior design, except for when I am waiting for Master Strike to finish and the mob walks off because its immune to being stuck in place. That is incredibly annoying and feels incredibly stupid. Yet somehow it still exists in the game 4 years later. Why though? Does anyone really find that fun?

 

Then there is the lacking features in the game that are very frustrating as they are long time staples of any RPG and MMO. I'd be far far more likely to get into Raiding in SWTOR if there was an actual in game DPS meter so that I can actually see how well I do and can strive to do better and measure my progress as I gain more experience and gear.

 

I'll sub again when the next story expansion hits, and play through it, but as soon as the story ends I am gone, as the class designs, the game mechanics, are bad, and apparently the Devs don't care to fix them.

[AdrianDmitruk]

As for the Orbital Strike/Freighter Flyby question, all I can say is a directed at Bioware, not you.

 

It used to be really powerful and worth a 3 second cast time (yes, it used to be 3s, not 2). But there was a spec that had buffs to AOEs, and Bioware grew displeased that people would precast OS before a pull and get extra "burst" on single target from an AOE ability.

 

In the process they didn't just nerf it, they nuked it from high orbit in the same manner that Darth Malak destroyed Taris, and made it completely useless to even have on your quickbar, as you point out.

 

Later, after 3.0, they did the same thing to Force Storm...nerf it to near uselessness because it was OP in one spec (rather than, you know, toning down the buffs from the one spec that made it OP...)

Edited August 25, 2015 by AdrianDmitruk

[Cordarn]

By "real issues" I am referring to things like the class designs, the game mechanics, and the many missing basic MMO features or utilities.

 

I'll start with the class designs. Who seem to all share a design goal of having an asinine amount of button bloat. Button bloat being the numerous abilities that are barely different than other abilities or are so weak they are just pointless.

 

My favorite new poster child for this button bloat is the Fly By Attack given to the smuggler I just leveled. Conceptually its kind of cool, having your ship fly over and bomb your target (though how that works indoors...). It is a targeted AOE. It does merely ok damage. So why would anyone use it over Sweeping Gunfire? Which is also a targeted AOE, but it does its damage immediately, and I'd argue a lot more damage (though without a combat log...), and there is no waiting for it to start. So what specific purpose was this Fly By attack trying to fill for the class? It makes no sense.

 

This seems to be the norm with SWTOR class design. Each class has several abilities which are barely better or kind of interesting compared to other abilities. Be it additional attacks or rather silly cooldowns. When you level up a class and you get a new cooldown, only to read it and think, "When will I ever use this silly thing?", and then not bind it, that's not good game design. Cooldowns, abilities, they should be fewer, and far more powerful.

 

Garbage cooldowns like, X ability now is a guaranteed Crit, 1 min CD should go. The 5th plain damage attack should go. In fact all the basic damage attacks that use resources should go. You have so many special abilities that they should be rarely used anyway, and a change to the resource usage of the special abilities can fix any gaps in rotations.

 

Then there is the issue of just poor game mechanics which for some reason have stuck around. Like the cover system. Why are you making me hit a button to able to use Sweeping Gunfire, which I believe is the only ability I have to be in cover to use? Whats the point of this annoyance? It does not seem to really protect my character, it does not feel good to use, and the moving around the game into the terrain cover points is awfully buggy. It also only affects 1 (real) class. Why keep it?

 

Or with the melee classes and giving them Long Channeled Cast Abilities. I quite like the warrior design, except for when I am waiting for Master Strike to finish and the mob walks off because its immune to being stuck in place. That is incredibly annoying and feels incredibly stupid. Yet somehow it still exists in the game 4 years later. Why though? Does anyone really find that fun?

 

Then there is the lacking features in the game that are very frustrating as they are long time staples of any RPG and MMO. I'd be far far more likely to get into Raiding in SWTOR if there was an actual in game DPS meter so that I can actually see how well I do and can strive to do better and measure my progress as I gain more experience and gear.

 

I'll sub again when the next story expansion hits, and play through it, but as soon as the story ends I am gone, as the class designs, the game mechanics, are bad, and apparently the Devs don't care to fix them.

 

So, I agree that there is a excessive amount of useless skills in in this game; however, I feel like the mechanics are perfectly fine. For instance, if your playing a gun slinger, you don't need to jump to different parts of the terrain to go into cover. Just press f where your standing and you'll pop a shield and it will be like you're behind terrain. Also, if you were playing a gunslinger correctly then cover would be your best friend; and master strike is almost just something to use to wear away the cooldowns on your other abilities that does decent damage, a filler if you will.

 

Secondly, I also agree that you should be able to use addons in this game; however, knowing how poorly this game's engine perfoms, I'm assuming it probably wouldn't be able to handle it lol.

[mikebevo]

In the process they didn't just nerf it, they nuked it from high orbit in the same manner that Darth Malak destroyed Taris, and made it completely useless to even have on your quickbar, as you point out.:

I could of been worse, they could have removed it altogether. Oh wait...signed a sawbones.

[DarthMaulUK]

Wait until you see the crazy combat changes coming with the expansion. Balance is going right out of the window.

[Aries_cz]

As for the Orbital Strike/Freighter Flyby question, all I can say is a directed at Bioware, not you.

 

It used to be really powerful and worth a 3 second cast time (yes, it used to be 3s, not 2). But there was a spec that had buffs to AOEs, and Bioware grew displeased that people would precast OS before a pull and get extra "burst" on single target from an AOE ability.

 

In the process they didn't just nerf it, they nuked it from high orbit in the same manner that Darth Malak destroyed Taris, and made it completely useless to even have on your quickbar, as you point out.

 

Later, after 3.0, they did the same thing to Force Storm...nerf it to near uselessness because it was OP in one spec (rather than, you know, toning down the buffs from the one spec that made it OP...)

 

All specs had buffs that benefited Forcequake/Storm (mental alacrity/force potency have been baseline sorc abilities for a while), and it resulted in getting a two 6s channels with no cooldown that autocritted with every tick. It is still useful for its intended purpose (groups of mobs), but it is not that great for single target anymore

 

I agree that the nerf to Flyby was overkill. And its removal from Scoundrel, just for the cool visuals. It could have been fixed in a better way, I think (akin to Storm)

[sojhill]

There is way too much problem with gun user classes. Like hitting your back, circle area aoe that ignores bullet roads, energy pool !? etc... Jedi and sith using force, mystic power source. They can regenarete or gain with rage but guns can't reload or charge themselves. I wish we have to prepeare and ajust our combat sources before each fight like, 3 frag, 2 poison, 1 nerve gas grenade, 2 ion mag, 4 incendary mag, 2 sets of mines etc... It's all about preperation.

[Aries_cz]

Then there is the lacking features in the game that are very frustrating as they are long time staples of any RPG and MMO. I'd be far far more likely to get into Raiding in SWTOR if there was an actual in game DPS meter so that I can actually see how well I do and can strive to do better and measure my progress as I gain more experience and gear.

 

Look up Combat Log Parsers. They works perfectly fine to see how you are doing in comparison to the rest of your group.

[Aries_cz]

There is way too much problem with gun user classes. Like hitting your back, circle area aoe that ignores bullet roads, energy pool !? etc... Jedi and sith using force, mystic power source. They can regenarete or gain with rage but guns can't reload or charge themselves. I wish we have to prepeare and ajust our combat sources before each fight like, 3 frag, 2 poison, 1 nerve gas grenade, 2 ion mag, 4 incendary mag, 2 sets of mines etc... It's all about preperation.

 

Actually, Star Wars blasters do sort of recharge themselves. They are not running on ammo, but on power cells. And while it is possible to deplete said power cell, it is extremely rare thing.

 

And while your "preparation" idea sounds cool, it would make the game obnoxiously complicated for non Force using classes, which is not what BioWare's original design wanted. You can assume that preparation is done when you use your "out of combat regeneration" ability.

[sojhill]

I have BH tank and ImpAgent, and their energy pool becomes nearly unlimited with certain and obvious rotations. In my opinion they should become little bit hard to play, this mistake killed WoW. I don't know much about lore but i'm pretty sure using hardcore shots in rapid succestion will blew up the gun. I can evolve my idea little bit, using cell power for shots which using much more resource and pre-defined amounts of gadgets like bombs, mines, missiles, etc..

[Aries_cz]

I have BH tank and ImpAgent, and their energy pool becomes nearly unlimited with certain and obvious rotations. In my opinion they should become little bit hard to play, this mistake killed WoW. I don't know much about lore but i'm pretty sure using hardcore shots in rapid succestion will blew up the gun. I can evolve my idea little bit, using cell power for shots which using much more resource and pre-defined amounts of gadgets like bombs, mines, missiles, etc..

 

As I said, your idea is cool, but would make the classes unbalanced to Force classes, which goes against BW's original design decision to make all classes equally viable.

 

It would be great for a game where only the "blaster" classes exist (like say, what 1313 was supposed to be, and maybe whatever it is that Visceral are doing), but in a MMO with Force classes it would just be insane, unless Force classes would also need to prepare (which goes against the lore). And seeing as people are screaming bloody murder over few jump abilities being added, I can't imagine what they would scream if "combat preparation" like you suggest was needed for all classes...

 

Lorewise, I think that hunters channel the heat from weapons and gadgets inside their armor, which is why they are using Heat resource that goes up instead of down, and can overheat. Other blaster classes presumably use something compared to Mass Effect's "heat sinks", which prevent the weapon from actually overheating, but need to be reloaded.

 

It is much easier to chuck it under "gameplay/story segregation", or assume that whatever preparation you need is being done when Hunters Vent Heat or Agents do their paperwork...

[Chicktopus]

Yeah, I'm with the OP on this. I've been saying pretty much the same thing for years. That being said, although classes do have several abilities which are effectively the same, or could be wrapped together neatly, this presents the problem of gameplay becoming incredibly tedious as we end up using the same ability over and over.

 

Let's take the Assassin for example. This class has several abilities which are all variations of "stick 'em with the pointy end" (Saber Strike, Thrash, Maul, Spike, Low-Slash, Lacerate). We could reduce the effect of ability bloat by allowing the binding of onkeydown as well as normal keypress events. This could free space on the action bar as each button could serve up to two abilities. The quickslots may need some UI changes to reflect that the key is dual-bound (Horizontal break?)

 

For example:

Saber Strike - Keypress (1), Thrash - OnKeydown (1)

Maul - Keypress (2), Spike - OnKeyDown (2)

Shock - Keypress ®, Force Lightning - OnKeydown ®

etc.

 

Obviously the bindings would be configurable by the player, as they are at the minute. Additionally, the duration before the OnKeydown action is triggered should also be user configurable.

 

As an aside, I'd also like to mention that I agree that channeled abilities are really annoying in melee when the target cannot be chased during the channel. Depredating Volts was a god send. It's a shame the mobile casting does not apply to all melee channels.

[Max_Killjoy]

As for the Orbital Strike/Freighter Flyby question, all I can say is a directed at Bioware, not you.

 

It used to be really powerful and worth a 3 second cast time (yes, it used to be 3s, not 2). But there was a spec that had buffs to AOEs, and Bioware grew displeased that people would precast OS before a pull and get extra "burst" on single target from an AOE ability.

 

In the process they didn't just nerf it, they nuked it from high orbit in the same manner that Darth Malak destroyed Taris, and made it completely useless to even have on your quickbar, as you point out.

 

Later, after 3.0, they did the same thing to Force Storm...nerf it to near uselessness because it was OP in one spec (rather than, you know, toning down the buffs from the one spec that made it OP...)

 

Bioware has made it clear that the preciousness of individual specs is more important to them than what the changes do to all the other "builds" from that class.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Bobs_YourUncle]

By "real issues" I am referring to things like the class designs, the game mechanics, and the many missing basic MMO features or utilities.

 

I'll start with the class designs. Who seem to all share a design goal of having an asinine amount of button bloat. Button bloat being the numerous abilities that are barely different than other abilities or are so weak they are just pointless.

 

My favorite new poster child for this button bloat is the Fly By Attack given to the smuggler I just leveled. Conceptually its kind of cool, having your ship fly over and bomb your target (though how that works indoors...). It is a targeted AOE. It does merely ok damage. So why would anyone use it over Sweeping Gunfire? Which is also a targeted AOE, but it does its damage immediately, and I'd argue a lot more damage (though without a combat log...), and there is no waiting for it to start. So what specific purpose was this Fly By attack trying to fill for the class? It makes no sense.

 

Its a starter AOE that gives you time to cast something else, even your other AOE before it hits and draws agro. Are there not in fact much better examples such as shock for inquisitor? You might have a case for there being an over abundance of abilities in the game, and if that's the case, surely you can break it down better than the orbital strike, which is a uniquely useful ability.

 

This seems to be the norm with SWTOR class design. Each class has several abilities which are barely better or kind of interesting compared to other abilities. Be it additional attacks or rather silly cooldowns. When you level up a class and you get a new cooldown, only to read it and think, "When will I ever use this silly thing?", and then not bind it, that's not good game design. Cooldowns, abilities, they should be fewer, and far more powerful.

 

Garbage cooldowns like, X ability now is a guaranteed Crit, 1 min CD should go. The 5th plain damage attack should go. In fact all the basic damage attacks that use resources should go. You have so many special abilities that they should be rarely used anyway, and a change to the resource usage of the special abilities can fix any gaps in rotations.

 

Bind/use the abilities you prefer. When it comes to any one classes rotation, none seem overly difficult or numerous. I'm sure they could trim some abilities, but I fail to see why this would prevent someone from liking the game.

 

Then there is the issue of just poor game mechanics which for some reason have stuck around. Like the cover system. Why are you making me hit a button to able to use Sweeping Gunfire, which I believe is the only ability I have to be in cover to use? Whats the point of this annoyance? It does not seem to really protect my character, it does not feel good to use, and the moving around the game into the terrain cover points is awfully buggy. It also only affects 1 (real) class. Why keep it?

 

It certainly does protect your character. Go pull agro on a ranged enemy and sit behind cover and note how many dodges or whatever fly above your character instead of getting hit.

 

Or with the melee classes and giving them Long Channeled Cast Abilities. I quite like the warrior design, except for when I am waiting for Master Strike to finish and the mob walks off because its immune to being stuck in place. That is incredibly annoying and feels incredibly stupid. Yet somehow it still exists in the game 4 years later. Why though? Does anyone really find that fun?

 

You really find that annoying? Again, im not seeing how that is something that keeps one from liking the game.

 

Then there is the lacking features in the game that are very frustrating as they are long time staples of any RPG and MMO. I'd be far far more likely to get into Raiding in SWTOR if there was an actual in game DPS meter so that I can actually see how well I do and can strive to do better and measure my progress as I gain more experience and gear.

 

I'll sub again when the next story expansion hits, and play through it, but as soon as the story ends I am gone, as the class designs, the game mechanics, are bad, and apparently the Devs don't care to fix them.

 

Of all the things wrong with the game... for you it comes down to a few abilities you find useless, yet you also infer there are plenty of abilities to take their place, and an in game DPS meter. I would dare say you do in fact like this game, given your intent to return when the expansion hits. Why come back for that, if the numerous and "useless" abilities and lack of in game DPS counter prevent it from being fun for you? Just skip the hyperbole of you not liking or quitting the game, since its obviously not true, and make your thread about some of your dislikes in the game.

[Ichikai]

They fracked up Orbital/Flyby by nerfing it too hard, granted an aoe should not do more DPS than a single target skill, however BW never buffs/nerfs in moderation and so it's always too good or too ****.

 

Same for the sorc Force Storm, PVPers be whining it did too much damage and they couldn't get out of it fast (snare).

Now, having recklesness work for the full duration of a force storm on every tick is beyond stupid, but apparently they couldn't (bother?) to fix that, so they just made it horrible. As for the snare in pvp, how about not having the snare work in pvp but keep it in pve? Too hard as well? *shrug*

[Sardorim]

They should considering condensing some skills together.

 

Heck, I'm still angry they screwed around with the Trooper's Hammer Shot.

 

I hate that they randomly separated the healing option out of it instead of having them together.

[branmakmuffin]

By "real issues" I am referring to things like the class designs, the game mechanics, and the many missing basic MMO features or utilities.

Things like "class design" and "game mechanics" are unlikely to change without a total re-do of the game.

 

And if you really wanted to like this game, you would, since liking is entirely a matter of choice.

[Aries_cz]

And if you really wanted to like this game, you would, since liking is entirely a matter of choice.

 

Not always, people allergic to peanuts probably don't decide they like peanuts...

/OT

[TUXs]

Wait until you see the crazy combat changes coming with the expansion. Balance is going right out of the window.

It's good to hear they're finally giving up entirely on "balance" rather than pretending they actually have ever cared.

[MSchuyler]

Not always, people allergic to peanuts probably don't decide they like peanuts...

/OT

 

That is about the worst analogy I have ever read.

[Sttm]

Things like "class design" and "game mechanics" are unlikely to change without a total re-do of the game.

 

And if you really wanted to like this game, you would, since liking is entirely a matter of choice.

 

This is a software product, and as a software product it can change rapidly and easily. Every other MMO and many other games have been able to overhaul their class designs, overhaul game mechanics, and especially over the course of 4 years.

 

There are aspects of the game I quite like, but those are story based, and take about a week to experience, and then be done with. Yet this is an MMO, the point is to keep people beyond a one month sub, and to keep me they would need to clean up their class designs and game mechanics.

 

And the very idea that liking things is a matter of choice is stupid. I am never going to like hitting an ability on a melee class that forces me to stand still while it channels. I am never going to like having a dozen almost pointless abilities. It's not going to happen, no matter how much I like the game's lore and story.

[branmakmuffin]

And the very idea that liking things is a matter of choice is stupid

Right, because whether you like or dislike things is totally against your will.

 

 

You need to take another look at what "stupid" means.

Edited August 25, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Bakakiba]

I'll sub again when the next story expansion hits, and play through it, but as soon as the story ends I am gone, as the class designs, the game mechanics, are bad, and apparently the Devs don't care to fix them.

 

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

Edited August 25, 2015 by Bakakiba

[Kaedusz]

By "real issues" I am referring to things like the class designs, the game mechanics, and the many missing basic MMO features or utilities.

 

I'll start with the class designs. Who seem to all share a design goal of having an asinine amount of button bloat. Button bloat being the numerous abilities that are barely different than other abilities or are so weak they are just pointless.

 

My favorite new poster child for this button bloat is the Fly By Attack given to the smuggler I just leveled. Conceptually its kind of cool, having your ship fly over and bomb your target (though how that works indoors...). It is a targeted AOE. It does merely ok damage. So why would anyone use it over Sweeping Gunfire? Which is also a targeted AOE, but it does its damage immediately, and I'd argue a lot more damage (though without a combat log...), and there is no waiting for it to start. So what specific purpose was this Fly By attack trying to fill for the class? It makes no sense.

 

This seems to be the norm with SWTOR class design. Each class has several abilities which are barely better or kind of interesting compared to other abilities. Be it additional attacks or rather silly cooldowns. When you level up a class and you get a new cooldown, only to read it and think, "When will I ever use this silly thing?", and then not bind it, that's not good game design. Cooldowns, abilities, they should be fewer, and far more powerful.

 

Garbage cooldowns like, X ability now is a guaranteed Crit, 1 min CD should go. The 5th plain damage attack should go. In fact all the basic damage attacks that use resources should go. You have so many special abilities that they should be rarely used anyway, and a change to the resource usage of the special abilities can fix any gaps in rotations.

 

Then there is the issue of just poor game mechanics which for some reason have stuck around. Like the cover system. Why are you making me hit a button to able to use Sweeping Gunfire, which I believe is the only ability I have to be in cover to use? Whats the point of this annoyance? It does not seem to really protect my character, it does not feel good to use, and the moving around the game into the terrain cover points is awfully buggy. It also only affects 1 (real) class. Why keep it?

 

Or with the melee classes and giving them Long Channeled Cast Abilities. I quite like the warrior design, except for when I am waiting for Master Strike to finish and the mob walks off because its immune to being stuck in place. That is incredibly annoying and feels incredibly stupid. Yet somehow it still exists in the game 4 years later. Why though? Does anyone really find that fun?

 

Then there is the lacking features in the game that are very frustrating as they are long time staples of any RPG and MMO. I'd be far far more likely to get into Raiding in SWTOR if there was an actual in game DPS meter so that I can actually see how well I do and can strive to do better and measure my progress as I gain more experience and gear.

 

I'll sub again when the next story expansion hits, and play through it, but as soon as the story ends I am gone, as the class designs, the game mechanics, are bad, and apparently the Devs don't care to fix them.

 

You don't have enough self doubt, you should have more. Too much self entitlement to recognize that the game doesn't need to change, you need to.

 

All of your post is a list of L2P issues or a case of playing the wrong genre.

 

You suck at the game or just find it too hard to play. And instead of improving you want the game to be streamlined,dumbed down and made horrible. The game mechanics are not bad, you are, and you should feel bad.

 

Close the door on your way out.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Kaedusz

[branmakmuffin]

You don't have enough self doubt, you should have more. Too much self entitlement to recognize that the game doesn't need to change, you need to.

 

All of your post is a list of L2P issues or a case of playing the wrong genre.

 

You suck at the game just find it too hard to play. And instead of improving you want the game to be streamlines,dubmed down and made horrible. You are bad and you should feel bad.

And his threat to quit the game if his demands are not met is always good for a few chuckles.