noobchoco Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 well, there's also people that'll label facts as "opinion" when you give them criticism and wave off your criticism as "your opinion" even on subjects where there's numbers to prove your statements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreiya Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Dude I was being sarcastic, that was a gratuitous shot at BW, not at the player base. Around these parts, it's sometimes a bit hard to tell when someone is taking a minor sarcastic shot at BW or if they're saying something completely irrational involving BW and actually mean it - lol. I daresay I've been influenced by seeing a crapload of completely wacko posts, so my bad for thinking you might have been serious about there being a connection. That being said, I think the point stands about this revolving around people's personalities, human psychology, etc. I've been around people who offer unasked for "advice" in groups, and they have had a tendency to do it in what amounts to a condescending, know-it-all kind of way. It never, ever goes well when they take that approach. What I've always found funny is that some of those people - I mean the ones who are particularly overbearing when offering their "advice" - don't take it particularly well if you stand up to them to defend someone else or tell them that maybe they should tone it down just a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaraExas Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 This is why we need cross server queues so these expert tanks can see exactly what I mean. Perfect example is master blaster with two vanguards. Let the "main tank" pull first get 2-3 attacks then the "off tank" use harpoon. I would say 1/3 or maybe 2/4 times the off tank will pull threat off the main one for a couple seconds. Like I said, it doesnt happen all the time, but when it does it's funny. It's funny because people get used to a certain way of "generating threat". For example, according to guides "stockstrike and HIB" generate the highest. But I will take away threat from any "main tank" by simply spamming explosive surge and shoulder cannon. The only reason other tanks disagree is simply because they don't use harpoon enough other than to pull the occasional lone wolf add running around hitting the healer. I honestly encourage all vanguard to try this out. Let the main tank pull boss with sticky grande and storm and then you just use harpoon immediately after he pulls. Try it at least 5 times. Then look at target of target and laugh your butt off. sounds like two people dont understand tanking, hueheuheuhuehuhhuehuehuehue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baraxis Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 sounds like two people dont understand tanking, hueheuheuhuehuhhuehuehuehue There are at least 5 that don't understand it. I pugged with them last night. Since I am one of them...kinda.... Can someone toss up a link to a "number infested" guide to the tanks attacks? Looking mostly for PT and VG stuff. This wasn't meant as a derail in the beginning but it sure turned out that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karrdenet Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 If I tell you your dps is insufficient I am not insulting you, It means exactly what you see. If I tell you not to stand in a certain area, there's a reason, I am not "telling you what to do". If I give you pointers on when and how to heal, it is not an attempt to say you suck, it's to help the group get past content. If I tell you to use harpoon instead of sticky grenade to start a fight, this isn't an attempt to call you out. Ever been in these situations? The reason why ill ignore people that do this is this isn't constructive. This is saying your doing it wrong and not helping me to be better. For once on dps if you want to tell me it's insufficient fine then tell me what I need to do to be suffient. It's that part that makes it constructive. If it's missing you get added to my ignore list. And if the op actually sends messages like that and expects people to respond then the op has no idea what constructive criticism is. Saying your dps is insufficient is like giving someone a d on a paper with only a brief comment on top, it does nothing to help the person get better. And for the record, no one responds well to criticism if it's done the way the op presented it. It's not just in swtor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) Saying your dps is insufficient is like giving someone a d on a paper with only a brief comment on top, it does nothing to help the person get better. I have seen players say that completely undergeared themselves with 140 gear in a HM FP, some has no clue Edited August 22, 2015 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karrdenet Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I have seen players say that completely undergeared themselves with 140 gear in a HM FP, some has no clue Yep. That happens in a lot of mmorpgs not just swtor. Not much you can do for someone that doesn't try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JourrnoRush Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I ask how I can do better. Then I proceed to do the exact same thing to get them so angry I can report for harassment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonalius Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 This is why we need cross server queues so these expert tanks can see exactly what I mean. Perfect example is master blaster with two vanguards. Let the "main tank" pull first get 2-3 attacks then the "off tank" use harpoon. I would say 1/3 or maybe 2/4 times the off tank will pull threat off the main one for a couple seconds. Like I said, it doesnt happen all the time, but when it does it's funny. It's funny because people get used to a certain way of "generating threat". For example, according to guides "stockstrike and HIB" generate the highest. But I will take away threat from any "main tank" by simply spamming explosive surge and shoulder cannon. The only reason other tanks disagree is simply because they don't use harpoon enough other than to pull the occasional lone wolf add running around hitting the healer. I honestly encourage all vanguard to try this out. Let the main tank pull boss with sticky grande and storm and then you just use harpoon immediately after he pulls. Try it at least 5 times. Then look at target of target and laugh your butt off. And here you are, proving yourself to be one of those who you are complaining about. You were given constructive criticism but no. You know best, your method works, and nothing people say will make you change your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandOfKane Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Probably because saying things like "You idiots, do what I say or get kicked!!" as well as without explaining why, is just as rude and inconsiderate as people who pretend not to hear genuine advice and continue doing what they were doing before, and/or with a "**** noob, I'm carrying this idiot loser group so shut your mouth!!!" thrown in. Now if you do politely give legitimate advice and the person responds like the above, that's different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfburger Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 As many others have stated earlier the manner in which contrastive criticism is given greatly affects how it is received. But, also the OP is correct as we as Americans (sorry most of my play experience is on NA servers) have also become extremely thinned skinned about anything we perceive to be an insult of any form, even if it is not intended in that manner. Just turn on the news and you can see how widespread this issue is in America way beyond the realm of video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamezfan Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 One thing to consider, your advice may not be good. I've seen a lot auf advice in the game and there is a lot of bad advice given. In a chat what makes your advice better than someone else you don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSaynKnutt Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 The way criticism is given is extremely important. A recent instance of outright criticism (that could have been more constructive) comes to mind. I was on voice chat with my sister and her fiancé and we were pugging PvP. We were playing Ancient Hypergate and she was guarding the pylon. A stealther stunned her and capped, and she frustratedly typed in the chat, "Why is the stun longer than the time it takes to cap?!" This statement was responded to by other team members typing, "You ******* newb! That's why you don't sit on the ******* node!" My sister was taken aback. She told us over voice, "Why are they so mean? I didn't know... I don't play this one very often." We explained to her that guarding away from the node requires the stealther to run to it after stunning you, taking more time to cap. She listened and tried to adjust her strategy accordingly. She didn't mind advice on how to play better. But the way in which the other players reacted to her simple ignorance was not helpful and made an already frustrating situation worse. So yes, to echo what others have said, the way you give your advice makes a huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxr Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Telling people they suck or complaining about them isn't constructive, it's whining and insulting. Telling someone HOW to improve is constructive. But simply yelling at them when they're doing something wrong or something you see as wrong is not. It's whiney, and quite often hilarious. Furthermore, rather than shouting at them that they suck you could just take a few moments to explain. I never understood this. "WHY DID YOU USE THE RANDOM LFG FINDER WITHOUT RESEAAAAAARCH?!" lol wat Edited August 23, 2015 by Daxr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royhenderson Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 As many others have stated earlier the manner in which contrastive criticism is given greatly affects how it is received. But, also the OP is correct as we as Americans (sorry most of my play experience is on NA servers) have also become extremely thinned skinned about anything we perceive to be an insult of any form, even if it is not intended in that manner. Just turn on the news and you can see how widespread this issue is in America way beyond the realm of video games. I think you hit the nail with this point. Things have gotten so bad, that whenever you make a suggestion, people automatically put their shields up. It's like a reflex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Robert Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I think you hit the nail with this point. Things have gotten so bad, that whenever you make a suggestion, people automatically put their shields up. It's like a reflex. Is that why you seemingly ignore almost every post in here, which does not say something, that agrees with your original statements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turajin Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Is that why you seemingly ignore almost every post in here, which does not say something, that agrees with your original statements? I'd say the reason why he ignores almost every post in here is because he himself is part of the "majority that can't take constructive criticism"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosevV Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) you do know that their are players who are slow and takes more than 2 times and if you and others don't have the patience then you shouldn't be in a group at all cause it takes patience and only 2 times is not being patient A little late response, but there.* Let's look at 2nd boss of ToS. Unit 1 under shield. 2 DPS continue to attack him. Leader Message (You know the message that in middle of screen): "Attack unit 2". They continued to attack Unit 1. Results? Wipe. After second wipe they was kicked.* P.S. Is this really too hard to understand that no proc expended and no damage dealt when he gold? Another situation. 3rd boss. Person don't know tactics, but he didn't said it. And I'm actually asked "Does everyone know what to do?". We meet cross (After first cross Leader message: "%name% you go to left side!"), we wiped. Okay, who wasn't inside the cross? This person. Why he wasn't inside the cross? He don't know tactics. "Tactic explanation". If you bad with left and right there marker "Star". Follow him.* Again wipe (For me this first wipe after "S**t happens" situation). Who wasn't inside cross? This person. Why he wasn't inside the cross? No answer.* I asked other party members to explain tactics to him once again maybe my English too bad and he didn't understand.* <little later> Wipe. Why? This person wasn't inside the cross. Why he wasn't inside the cross? No answer.* This time party members agreed that this person need to be kicked or we will not succeed. Only this two bosses where I meet people like this. Edited August 23, 2015 by LosevV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerqa Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 "Giving advice" and "telling people how to play" are two completely different things. Some people are very good at communicating and giving advice, talking people through a scenario, teaching another player how to overcome an obstacle or run and instance or operation. They take the time to do so in a friendly manner. Other people are of the mindset that you have to do x, y, and z, this way and this way only. If you do not do it the way that they specify then "you suck". I see this attitude far more often than the good communicator listed above. Especially in pvp. All this does is frustrate the ones playing and turn away new players trying to learn the game. I generally just ignore the ones that "tell people how to play" and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Wipe. Why? This person wasn't inside the cross. Why he wasn't inside the cross? No answer.* It is possible that this person didn't understand English at all. For example the Spanish-speaking community has asked several times now at least for subtitles. There are people from all over this world playing the game. And if you want to exclude them because they don't speak English, then this is again this behaviour of "if you don't do what you should do, then I'll leave you or kick you." On the other hand, a person who doesn't know the English language but plays this game should imhpo rather group with people speakling the same, own language. That would be better for understanding. Other people are of the mindset that you have to do x, y, and z, this way and this way only. If you do not do it the way that they specify then "you suck". This also appears in GSF as well, according to this quote about certain GSF community beliefs : 3. If you are not using the accepted builds you are useless and I will abandon you. You should just accept that we know what works best and learn to adjust, if you don't then I will drop any group I see you in. These are the overall viewpoints I saw repeated in conversation over time. Edited August 23, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Because the majority of players are humans. "Giving advice" and "telling people how to play" are two completely different things. I generally just ignore the ones that "tell people how to play" and move on. And this. Most people who think they are "giving advice" are actually "telling others how to play." This is why I don't raid and I suspect why the majority of players who don't raid don't raid. Edited August 23, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpope Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I suspect a lot of it is how the advice is presented. It's not just what you say, it's how you say it. If you are offering advice, you need to do it carefully and try not to offend. It's probably even and good idea to simply ask "can I offer you some advice on how to increase your dps, heals, make the fight easier, etc", before actually giving advice. If they say yes, then offer advice. If they say no, don't press it. The other aspect is don't offer advice on things that aren't the problem. Example, I was healing HM Assault on Tython on Imp side on my operative. On Major Imos, one of the dps dies twice because he doesn't get out of the orb strikes and proceeds to blame lag. He then quits group during the fight. Which leaves us with me, tank and 1 dps. We get the boss down to about 25% without problems until the other dps gets one-shotted because he doesn't get out of orb strike. Tank and I then die because we can't get the adds down fast enough with no dps. Tank then proceeds to complain about where I was standing, which makes him look like an idiot. The problem wasn't where I was standing, the problem was we had no dps. I guess the fact that we were doing fine with only 3 of us through 3 waves of adds wasn't enough of a clue that I knew what I was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 On Major Imos, one of the dps dies twice because he doesn't get out of the orb strikes and proceeds to blame lag. He then quits group during the fight. Which leaves us with me, tank and 1 dps. We get the boss down to about 25% without problems until the other dps gets one-shotted because he doesn't get out of orb strike. On this tangent, it's always amusing (in a sad way) when people say a character was "one-shotted" when it was almost certainly not at full health. If a character were at 1% health and then got defeated, we would not say it was "one-shotted." Same applies if the character is at 99% health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royhenderson Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 Is that why you seemingly ignore almost every post in here, which does not say something, that agrees with your original statements? Not true. I have literally read and taken in every post in here and realized that perhaps I may be saying things rather than how to improve. I realized that saying "majority" wasn't the best choic of words. Why would I spam this thread replying to every single post? Why would anyone spam a thread replying to every single comment made? If that's what you meant. Now please tell me how many on these forums would admit they are in the wrong? I do, and I take the criticism and learn from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) U Wot M8? I have tested both and Harpoon Generates on average only 200 extra Threat than a stick grenade (both around 2000 threat in BiS Gear). Best is to start with Charge so you can go into your heavy threat builders quicker. The guy seems to really like Harpoon. @OP: skills that re-position enemies are for occasions that call for re-positioning. Edited August 23, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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