Debate of the rising underdog, arsenal or IO?

[Obviousenuendo]

For the longest time since 3.0 came out. I believed arsenal was the superior dps spec, Io held no candle of hope to the ultimate out-put and utility of what arsenal could do. Infact, I was going to make a thread bashing people who gimped themselves by using such an inferior spec on an already badly placed class.

 

I will start with this though, my merc is fully purpled augmented/ min/maxed in full DR. Is the class in a good place? No, but people really exaggerate just how bad the class itself is.

people complain that two stealth can jump you and you will die in a stunlock before you can move. yeah, that's kind of true, it happened to me once. but really the only ones who realistically survive that are a guardian and sage.

sages have utility, and can live for a long time, that is their purpose, but they can't burst or shutdown a class like a merc can.

I had a sniper before, deleted because 4 characters are too many to handle, and really it just felt like a more squishier merc, probably because, they are more squishier mercs, that can put out more damage as a trade-off.

 

anyway, here's what arsenal looks like.

pros,

priming shot = big hitter, hits usually about 4-6 K, usable every 12 seconds.

which makes tracer missile = instant, hits between 2-6 K,

which makes blazing bolts = constant stream of 2-4K hits, that can do damage equal to that of master strike (10K or more)

follow up with heatseeker = instant, first one will be auto crit, hitting for 11-13K, 5-6K for non-crit

add two more tracers (around 7K or more damage)

to finish with railshot = instant 7-10K damage finisher

if you really want to be mean, you can add E-net which forces the target to stand still, waste cc breaker, or take about another 8-10K by running.

 

congrats you've just globaled a sage, scoundrel, sentinal, commando, vanguard, shadow, or sniper (guardians are harder to put down than that)

 

Highly mobile friendly = you only need to stand still to cast about 1 to 3 tracers when prime shot or power surge is down. I highly recommend taking the energy rebounder and thrill of the hunt utility, along with the 20% increased healing received when shield is up. This will help in LOSing caster's, and staying out of melee range without losing too much dps.

Heat friendly = seriously unless you spam healing or tracer missile for 3minutes you will never hit full heat, and since you're a burst spec, fight's shouldn't be lasting very long

Target swap friendly = oh you're attacking a new target? no problem shoot a tracer at it and you're good to go.

Chaff flare is now awesome = with 5 absorbs to force/tech damage. you can literally counter every class's burst in the game except a marksman sniper and vigilance guardian/mara ..every 45 seconds..that's almost like a free shroud.

 

cons = very predictable rotation/easy to counter. If someone with half a brain interrupts tracer when you have to cast it and you don't have the debuff up on anyone.. well, gg.. you could hit sweeping blasters quick for BB proc if you can, maybe first a missile blast or dart for filler...keep running?

 

 

Now to look at IO

 

Pros = ability to damage multiple targets at once (doh dot specs are pressure spec for a reason) though I'm sure if I can call that a pro, because even with all 4 dot's up, on one target (5 if you include supergas) it's still less damage than a madness sorc/assassin, who only uses two dots..that last longer on a target..

Mag shot every 6 seconds = it's neat because it also fires with your off-hand and it's always useable on any target, not that it matters though because hitting a target that isn't burning is kind of a waste anyway..

More tools = detonator, super missile blast + mag shot at once..with dots, it might exceed the potential burst of arsenal. but I need hard data which I'm unable to obtain.

Chaff flare is awesome... = against 3 classes.. kind of..

ughh?

 

Cons

This spec is more of a caster spec than an instant one now. = I'm sorry, but separated bolt was stupid, if you really wanted to add a bleed, why not just add it onto power shot? or make the bolt replace power shot? if either of those things were done this spec would be perfect, but no. they had to give you two separate casts, building more heat in a spec that can't afford it, along with fusion missile. Which leads me to..

Poor heat management = hitting a burning target with mag shot is your only resource restorer.. uneven with high alacrity(5.0 or more) you still don't vent fast enough if you want to pump out damage. You can take the utility to vent heat when stunned snared/immobilized, that helps but it also encourages you to be attacked, and that's bad. Which also leads me to..

No filler attacks = as arsenal, what do I do when BB, rail shot, and heatseeker is on CD? I cast tracer until they aren't. As IO? what? power shot spam? nope that builds too much heat. Which leads me too..

Rapid shots is a necessary filler attack = any spec in the game that is not taking for a guardian (actually this may have changed by now) that requires the use of basic attack to maintain consistent damage.. is bad..very very bad..

 

Awful and pointless dot spread = you have 5 different dots, you can spread 3 of them (unless the cylinder dot spreads too I haven't noticed) that requires two abilities. I'm okay with fusion missile spreading the fire dots, that's cool. but needing dart to spread bleed, on top of the fact that having a separate cast for this bleed is stupid to begin with.. yeah.. why not sweeping blasters? that actually spreads better and procs mag shot, which we need. Also, the dots have such short timers and do little damage, that it's not even worth putting the effort to spread them, all your attacks focus on single target damage anyhow.

 

Bugged proc ability makes this harder than it needs to be = this one is somewhat trivial but deserves a mention. Going back to the cast problem, I would have recommended taking the power surge utility with this spec instead of the thrill of the hunt, to be an almost 100% on the move spec, however, mag shot forces you to choose between an instant heal/bolt/shot, and this proc consumes a power surge charge, and if it comes up unexpectedly, you're going to be wasting one surge charge, because the only thing you can cast that won't consume that proc is fusion missile.

 

 

So all in all, you can see why I favor arsenal, but I recently decided to find any hidden potential or ways around these cons that I'm unsure about. I want to like it, I want to be able to say that it's a viable spec that requires you to think and use the right stuff at the right time to get the most out of your damage while rendering you're opponent helpless.

 

I'll leave this here for people to discuss ideas opinions and/or experiences on which is better or something I overlooked. Mostly just looking for feedback based on my analasist

[TheJollyRogers]

I just find it so fascinating that some people find Arsenal to be a more mobile spec than IO. I personally find that to be completely switched. A lot of my time as Arsenal is spent frustrated that I can't deal pressure when someone is sitting on me. The reliance on tracer missiles when Priming Shot is down is rather frustrating to me.

 

However, when I play IO, I almost never, ever cast. It's usually me running about throwing Incendiary, Thermal Detonator, Mag Shots and Unload with Thrill of the Hunt (giving me another Mag Shot) and then Mag Shot giving me a instant Power Shot, Serrated Shot or Rapid Scan.

 

I'm almost never standing still as IO.

 

As for DoT-spread - it's actually not bad if you stack Death from Above on top of it. You'll get some mean numbers. However, I generally avoid doing that unless their team is really stacked. As IO, I'm generally going after the healers and trying to get them down enough to blow Electric Net and gut them for good.

[Saikochoro]

I just find it so fascinating that some people find Arsenal to be a more mobile spec than IO. I personally find that to be completely switched. A lot of my time as Arsenal is spent frustrated that I can't deal pressure when someone is sitting on me. The reliance on tracer missiles when Priming Shot is down is rather frustrating to me.

 

However, when I play IO, I almost never, ever cast. It's usually me running about throwing Incendiary, Thermal Detonator, Mag Shots and Unload with Thrill of the Hunt (giving me another Mag Shot) and then Mag Shot giving me a instant Power Shot, Serrated Shot or Rapid Scan.

 

I'm almost never standing still as IO.

 

As for DoT-spread - it's actually not bad if you stack Death from Above on top of it. You'll get some mean numbers. However, I generally avoid doing that unless their team is really stacked. As IO, I'm generally going after the healers and trying to get them down enough to blow Electric Net and gut them for good.

 

Arsenal is a lot more mobile than it used to be, but IO is more mobile still. I think that some people just don't consider throwing out incendiary missile or explosive dart on the move as doing damage on the move. IO actually has quite a few instants that they regularly use and unload on the move...so I agree with you. They may also have not really tried IO out a lot. If you haven't really tried it, then you aren't likely to realize how mobile it is. I think a lot of people trying out the spec feel like they have to use power shot all the time to proc mag shot, which really isn't the case. IO isn't as easy to play IMO, but if you know what you are doing I think IO is better at least in reg warzones.

[OMGitsCHARLIE]

I love IO cause no one ever plays it and no one expects your sneaky burst. The supercharge dot is strong as balls and the dots just creep up on the target. The potential of a Magshot>Unload>Autocrit Magshot is crazy. Edited August 18, 2015 by OMGitsCHARLIE

[foxmob]

the problem with IO is long build up and high resource cost. so you cannot hard swap and you have to take your chances sometimes and gamble on a kill or you're jusg ammo screwed. also, the dot spread is stupid. it's just like pyro for PT: you make anything work in regs, but if your dot spread is doing anything in arenas, your opponents are dummies (literally).

 

this makes it garbage against trinity comps.

 

the burst is real though, and it can catch a sorc with his pants down: hard cast serrated > incendiary > TD > explosive dart > pwer override + fusion > wrap him in enent just before TD blows and hit him with mag > ps proc'd instant > mag. that will overheat you in a hurry, so it's a huge gamble but it's very effective against sorcs in particular. the mag > ps > mag hit at about the same time as TD + ED and he has to break before he can barrier cuz on enet.

Edited August 18, 2015 by foxmob

[Glower]

I love IO, but rotation hell drives me crazy. Way too many actions to apply your crap.

[Zoom_VI]

The problem with IO is that it functions as a ranged version of AP, but with even more ramp time, less mobility, and even more difficulty with target swaps.

 

Arsenal at least has the advantage of having minimal burst ramp, quick and easy target switching, and little reasource management concerns. Oh and arsenal can actually self-heal itself.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[Saikochoro]

The problem with IO is that it functions as a ranged version of AP, but with even more ramp time and less mobility.

 

Arsenal at least has the advantage of bring unique tools such as the 1.5sec ramp to burst after target swap.

 

At least IO is more fun

[Gyronamics]

I dunno, was thinking of and did type an essay to reply but meh...

 

Both are weak under pressure which is this other way of saying when PVP gets real, don't bring a Merc.

 

Arsenal eats a cactus if forced to duel melee because it can't run and gun on demand, only does direct damage and suffers hugely from interrupts.

 

It can use Concussion Missile reliably and is easy to play if ignored and allowed to freecast.

 

Innovative Ordinance can't burst on demand, requires ramp up to become a major threat (swapping sucks a cactus) and is horrendous to track all the procs in the RNG of PVP. No chance of CC'ing the target you're on.

 

It can realistically duel a melee (SINGULAR) due to dots nibbling away as long as you are competent in rotating skills so you get a good output on the move as you strafe fire backwards while jogging along with Hydraulic Overrides up.

 

Healing is more legit than Arsenal due to 3/4 cost but you still might as well sit on a cactus than try and use the new and abused cast in combat. You can recover faster away from a fight (feeling lucky?) but there's close to zero chance in deathmatch arena.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Gyronamics

[Zoom_VI]

I dunno, was thinking of and did type an essay to reply but meh...

 

Both are weak under pressure which is this other way of saying when PVP gets real, don't bring a Merc.

 

Arsenal eats a cactus if forced to duel melee because it can't run and gun on demand, only does direct damage and suffers hugely from interrupts.

 

It can use Concussion Missile reliably and is easy to play if ignored and allowed to freecast.

 

Innovative Ordinance can't burst on demand, requires ramp up to become a major threat (swapping sucks a cactus) and is horrendous to track all the procs in the RNG of PVP. No chance of CC'ing the target you're on.

 

It can realistically duel a melee (SINGULAR) due to dots nibbling away as long as you are competent in rotating skills so you get a good output on the move as you strafe fire backwards while jogging along with Hydraulic Overrides up.

 

Healing is more legit than Arsenal due to 3/4 cost but you still might as well sit on a cactus than try and use the new and abused cast in combat. You can recover faster away from a fight (feeling lucky?) but there's close to zero chance in deathmatch arena.

 

Mercs need more watermelon and less cacti.

[Gyronamics]

Mercs need more watermelon and less cacti.

 

Then how come they simply swap the species of cactus every time an opportunity comes up rather than giving us watermelon.

[Zoom_VI]

Then how come they simply swap the species of cactus every time an opportunity comes up rather than giving us watermelon.

 

Well I mean they might be getting them mixed up. Cacti are essentially watermelons with less water and more spikes.

 

Either that or the sorcs have been stealing all the watermelon. They've certainly been getting a lot of em this patch cycle.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[foxmob]

arsenal can actually self-heal itself.

 

when push comes to shove, I find the new heal proc works better for IO than arsenal. I can proc the heal w/o ever having to hard cast. getting 3 stacks in arsenal pretty much necessitates that I stand there and hard cast at least one tracer. not a huge difference, but that was something that I noticed right away...how quickly the IO option could be proc'd.

 

Arsenal eats a cactus if forced to duel melee because it can't run and gun on demand, only does direct damage and suffers hugely from interrupts. .

 

until a few months ago, I was IO since...1.3. never like tracer spam. and I do still enjoy it, but I cannot think of a single class that I would rather 1v1 on the IO instead of the Arsenal. wait. no. I think I might rather dot and dodge an MM sniper. that's all I can think of.

 

the big advantages I notice is 5 force/tech absorbs > 6s of 35% defense chance; and the snare on blazing bolts combined with thrill of the hunt.

 

on the other hand, the quicker heal proc is better in soloQ where my job is to kite and die less quickly. the 35% chance becomes more valuable the more opponents that are focusing you in that 6s window. so as the "bait" in soloQ, if you get the 4v1 treatment, I could see IO flares actually being better than arsenal's. no other scenario comes to mind though.

 

all in all, I think arsenal is better off, but as has already been mentioned, they share the same glaring weaknesses. it's a class made for pve.

[Obviousenuendo]

until a few months ago, I was IO since...1.3. never like tracer spam. and I do still enjoy it, but I cannot think of a single class that I would rather 1v1 on the IO instead of the Arsenal. wait. no. I think I might rather dot and dodge an MM sniper. that's all I can think of.

 

the big advantages I notice is 5 force/tech absorbs > 6s of 35% defense chance; and the snare on blazing bolts combined with thrill of the hunt.

 

on the other hand, the quicker heal proc is better in soloQ where my job is to kite and die less quickly. the 35% chance becomes more valuable the more opponents that are focusing you in that 6s window. so as the "bait" in soloQ, if you get the 4v1 treatment, I could see IO flares actually being better than arsenal's. no other scenario comes to mind though.

 

all in all, I think arsenal is better off, but as has already been mentioned, they share the same glaring weaknesses. it's a class made for pve.

 

thank you for stating the above as I was about to mention, arsenal is the #1 1 vs 1 spec, (assuming you get the jump)

with electro-net up vs any mara, op, or shadow that would destroy you, you can burn them to nothing without them even getting in 10m range to do anything. not even joking, I've done it several times.

[mmmbuddah]

the problem with IO is long build up and high resource cost. so you cannot hard swap and you have to take your chances sometimes and gamble on a kill or you're jusg ammo screwed. also, the dot spread is stupid. it's just like pyro for PT: you make anything work in regs, but if your dot spread is doing anything in arenas, your opponents are dummies (literally).

 

this makes it garbage against trinity comps.

 

the burst is real though, and it can catch a sorc with his pants down: hard cast serrated > incendiary > TD > explosive dart > pwer override + fusion > wrap him in enent just before TD blows and hit him with mag > ps proc'd instant > mag. that will overheat you in a hurry, so it's a huge gamble but it's very effective against sorcs in particular. the mag > ps > mag hit at about the same time as TD + ED and he has to break before he can barrier cuz on enet.

 

That is a MASSIVE ramp up time right there, when arsenal can just use 3 abilities to reach the same amount of damage. I used to always play assault specialist pre 3.0, but what it has become is garbage compared to its previous iteration, same goes for plasmatech (old assault spec for vg). I tried my damndest, but always get singled out by the fotm classes when I ran those specs and melted like nothing, at least with gunnery / tactics / marksman I can go toe to toe with them. Not run to the hills and cry for help.

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

Eh, both specs are ok for regstars, as long as you're willing to deal with IO's hell of a ammo management and ludicruous ramp up time. It's just a matter of playstyle preferrence.

 

In ranked you're going to get smoked in a few seconds regardless of your spec.

 

Pretty much all there is to it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by BenitsubasaChiyo

[Draqsko]

the snare on blazing bolts combined with thrill of the hunt.

 

I don't consider that an advantage, considering IO's Incendiary applies a 30% snare for 15 seconds, it's more like a trade-off.

 

Arsenal - 70% for 6 seconds at most (3 seconds after the last hit of BB).

IO - 30% for 15 seconds, and refreshed every time you reapply it. This is a much better tool for kiting melee with +15% base speed since you can slow them more than their increased base and have nearly full uptime on it.

[foxmob]

I don't consider that an advantage, considering IO's Incendiary applies a 30% snare for 15 seconds, it's more like a trade-off.

 

Arsenal - 70% for 6 seconds at most (3 seconds after the last hit of BB).

IO - 30% for 15 seconds, and refreshed every time you reapply it. This is a much better tool for kiting melee with +15% base speed since you can slow them more than their increased base and have nearly full uptime on it.

 

70% = might as well be standing still. 30% = welcome to life in a WZ.

[foxmob]

That is a MASSIVE ramp up time right there, when arsenal can just use 3 abilities to reach the same amount of damage. I used to always play assault specialist pre 3.0, but what it has become is garbage compared to its previous iteration, same goes for plasmatech (old assault spec for vg). I tried my damndest, but always get singled out by the fotm classes when I ran those specs and melted like nothing, at least with gunnery / tactics / marksman I can go toe to toe with them. Not run to the hills and cry for help.

 

yes. it certainly is. but the rng is much stronger in arsenal as well. ppl complain about heatseeker only being good every 60s. that's not a problem for me. I like to hold it in reserve and crush my target with it like a finisher. what drives me crazy is how inconsistent rail shot is, even if I only use it with full stacks, the dmg range goes from useless to kooll-aid (oh yeah!). I hate it. it's completely unreliable. I need it to crit while procing a relic for it to do meaningful dmg. otherwise, I'm doing more with tracer. and that offends me. that's like flame burst doing more dmg than rail on AP. neither one is your best dps ability, but they should be consistently better than your filler!

 

edit: speaking of which, it would be nice if BW designed specs so that the filler isn't also the thing that governs your procs. e.g., stop procing AP rail on everything and tie it to RP and the melee aoe instant (forgot the name).

Edited August 19, 2015 by foxmob

[Jayshames]

IO has really good pressure and an absolute ton of DoT. Though, like others have said.. it has a long build up and is absolutely disgusting for target swapping.

[Obviousenuendo]

so im still trying IO and it's not garbage.. but I feel like any kill or damage I do with this spec I feel like im being less effective than if I went arsenal.. maybe I need to tweek my stats alittle more, but here they are. fully buffed/stimmed

(without bolster, even though im fully geared and augmented in DR, my bonus damage increases with it)

 

////////// /////////// //// ranged % ////////////////////////// Tech %

bonus damage = 1061 ///////////////////// //////////// 1611

accuracy = 92.89 ////////////////////// ///////// 102.89

crit chance= 29.09 ///////////////// ///////// 27.48

crit multi = 71.06 ///// //////////////////////// 71.06

alac = 4.32%

 

Edit* I gave up with it, I feel way too useless with this spec, as arensal I can actually carry a bad team, IO not so much

Edited August 19, 2015 by Obviousenuendo

[foxmob]

if you're willing to play mando/merc, then neither of these specs should make you scoff in disgust. IO is only worlds away from arsenal in one very specific situation: group ranked.

[Lalainnia]

IQ has srs heat issues and it needs a talent similar to Arsenals buffed up heal after tracer spamming otherwise its fine imo.

[Draqsko]

so im still trying IO and it's not garbage.. but I feel like any kill or damage I do with this spec I feel like im being less effective than if I went arsenal.. maybe I need to tweek my stats alittle more, but here they are. fully buffed/stimmed

(without bolster, even though im fully geared and augmented in DR, my bonus damage increases with it)

 

////////// /////////// //// ranged % ////////////////////////// Tech %

bonus damage = 1061 ///////////////////// //////////// 1611

accuracy = 92.89 ////////////////////// ///////// 102.89

crit chance= 29.09 ///////////////// ///////// 27.48

crit multi = 71.06 ///// //////////////////////// 71.06

alac = 4.32%

 

Edit* I gave up with it, I feel way too useless with this spec, as arensal I can actually carry a bad team, IO not so much

 

Drop accuracy entirely from your gear, and drop surge to a crit multi of 70% (on the nose if you can) and pump the rest into alacrity. It shouldn't DR hard with PvP gear, and I've found my ammo management much better, not to mention the lowering of cooldowns which AS/IO depends on heavily with the ICD on Mag Bolt reset, and ICD on instant cast SB, CB, MP.

 

I've never found a need for accuracy in PvP unless you want to specialize in killing tanks since that is the only build you'll miss a lot against.

 

PS. The only attack I think is actually at 90% or 91% ranged accuracy is Hammer Shot/Rapid Shots. The rest, even the white damage ones use the special accuracy category which is 10% higher. If you mouseover it'll show it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Draqsko

[Gyronamics]

Drop accuracy entirely from your gear, and drop surge to a crit multi of 70% (on the nose if you can) and pump the rest into alacrity. It shouldn't DR hard with PvP gear, and I've found my ammo management much better, not to mention the lowering of cooldowns which AS/IO depends on heavily with the ICD on Mag Bolt reset, and ICD on instant cast SB, CB, MP.

 

I've never found a need for accuracy in PvP unless you want to specialize in killing tanks since that is the only build you'll miss a lot against.

 

PS. The only attack I think is actually at 90% or 91% ranged accuracy is Hammer Shot/Rapid Shots. The rest, even the white damage ones use the special accuracy category which is 10% higher. If you mouseover it'll show it.

 

Nothing to do with tanks.

 

Firstly you are partially correct. All abilities are 100% accurate except default attack which is 90%.

 

So I don't need accuracy?

 

Wrong.

 

All classes have 5% dodge chance except consulars/inquisitors which have 10% dodge. This is before any tank specs. That means 5-10% chance to make white damage attacks miss.

 

Walk into a warzone with your 101% accuracy from companion buff and you will miss Mag Shot, Blazing Bolt, Railshot, Unload and Priming Shot mainhand hits 4% of the time vs most people and 9% of the time vs consulars and inquisitors. Without them using any cooldowns. Or being tanks.

 

So, to fix this you can do two things:

 

1) Get 105% accuracy so you wont miss on anyone except 5% on consulars/inquisitors

 

2) Go all the way to 110% so you hit all your attacks as long as they are not tanks or using cooldowns which increase dodge.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Gyronamics