Why combining main-stats is neither bad nor "dumbing down' anything.

[Diviciacus]

What reflects how every class feels are the differences in playstyle from class to class from AC to AC. What reflects the difference is story and how the choices you make in the story get reflected at the end (although, not very much right now). What reflects the difference in classes are things like how the lightsaber is handled, lightning or just force, shotgun or knife, sniper/blaster rifle vs two guns etc. Those four words: aim, cunning, willpower, and strength are kinda silly, mostly meaningless in respect to any difference in how the stats are actually handled and do what to reflect the class? A minor word difference? Armor is already adaptive so that kind of difference flew the coop a long time ago.

 

You're not understanding what I mean by flavor. To use D&D as an example:

 

A Wizard is a spellcaster, who uses long hours of practise and study to perform magic. A Wizard thus favors Intellect above other stats, because Intellect is a measure of theoretical knowledge.

 

A Sorceror is a spellcaster, who uses force of personality and intuition to perform magic. A Sorceror thus favors Charisma above other stats, because charisma is the measure of those things.

 

From a game mechanics perspective, the two classes are virtually identical (there's minor differences, but they're irrelevant for this example beyond offering even more flavor). Acquire target. Throw fireball. Collect loot. It's the flavor of the class - the different lore-wise ways they channel magic, and the game-mechanic mainstat they favor as a reflection of that flavor - which sets the two apart. Which gives two classes that would otherwise be very similar more uniqueness.

 

"Playstyle" isn't flavor - because guess what? Watchman Sentinel and Annihilation Marauder play EXACTLY the same. Vigilance Guardian/Vengeance Juggernaut are also melee dps classes with some dots. At a base mechanics level, they're no different than Watchman/Annihilation. So is Plasmatech/Pyrotech: melee dps with dots.

 

Melee DPS. Has damage over time abilities. Three AC's (and their mirrors), all very similar mechanically.

 

It's the FLAVOR that sets them apart. A Marauder is not a Sentinel. Why?

 

Gore vs. Precision. Same ability, but the NAME adds flavor.

Force Sweep vs. Smash. Same ability, but the NAME adds flavor.

 

Think about the names and what they mean. You wouldn't have Precision on a marauder, because Marauders are bloodthirsty psychopaths who will kill anything and everything. There's nothing precise about a Marauder. But Gore? Hell yes, let's stick a lightsaber in somebody's guts! MARAUDER! RAGE! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

 

But a Sentinel? They're a Jedi. Calm. Collected. Serene. Precision fits the flavor of a Jedi - an exacting strike to end combat with a minimum of fuss and loss of life.

 

To use my example from before:

 

Force Melt/Force Rend vs. Weaken Mind/Affliction. (Formerly) same ability, but the NAMES add flavor. Names, and in a video game, visual effects and animations, turn what would be the exact same damn thing, and make it feel completely different. I've seen people playing this game for years that had no idea that Trooper and Bounty Hunter were literally identical classes mechanically, because the look and feel (that is, the flavor) of the two classes could scarcely be different.

 

I could go on literally all night with more examples.

 

Removing mainstats (Aim/Cunning/Strenght/Willpower) removes flavor. Not much, just a little, but it does.

 

Aim, from a flavor perspective, is how good a shot someone is.

Cunning, from a flavor perspective, is how good at plotting and figuring things out someone is.

Strength, from a flavor perspective, is a measure of physical power.

Willpower, from a flavor perspective, is a measure of mental power.

 

Each stat is only unique from a flavor perspective. And that flavor matters, because each gives a completely different feel to their respective classes, because of that flavor. And now they're removing that flavor from the classes.

 

And when flavor of a class is reduced, the distinction between classes starts to melt away... and then they might as well just have three classes:

 

-Healer

-Tank

-DPS

 

And nothing else.

 

It's the same thing with the decision to never again have Class-specific stories going forward. Class stories, from 1-50, are a HUGE dose of flavor, look, and feel. It establishes motivations and personalities for the eight classes. Now, from a story standpoint, there might as well be no class distinction.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Diviciacus

[Darth-Rammstein]

Eh, I'm more upset about the removal of talent trees. Don't care if everyone used cookie cutter builds, I liked them.

[KorbanShepard]

Eh, I'm more upset about the removal of talent trees. Don't care if everyone used cookie cutter builds, I liked them.

 

I disagree with that one, but at least that actually impacts something. That sounds like a personal preference and I get that on some level.

[Max_Killjoy]

For the main stats... meh, it's not bad or good, just a waste of Bioware's time and energy for nothing gained.

 

Seeing Warrior or Knight characters over level 5 or so running around in a mix of WILL and AIM gear was how you identified the morons...

[KaiserTNT]

If I understand this right, it's definitely going to make gearing easier, and I don't really have a problem with that. By using legacy gear, I can gear my 16 or so toons for progression raiding by simply building three armor sets: Tank, DPS, Healer?

 

True, using this system, several toons wouldn't have the appropriate set bonus, but they'd still be able to perform at an adequate level in most cases, since Bioware is targeting less than 5% improvement from set bonuses. To Min/Max you'll still need to farm gear for your left side on extra toons, but the new system should relieve the gear barrier to quickly trying out new comps on a raid team....which is good news if you like to raid for progression and learning new specs instead of farming gear.

Edited August 13, 2015 by KaiserTNT

[Dontelar]

Like someone else said, it would be nice to be able to swap gear around between companions while questing, since they never really made gearing them all practical before endgame, at which point you don't really use them anyways, causing you to have to stick to just one or two, even if you felt like a certain companion really made sense for the current mission. You know, like troopers have always been able to do! Think of it as leveling the playing field!

 

Plus it's also nice that you'll no-longer have to worry about finding gear in FPs quite as much. It always sucks when you have, say, a shadow and three sages, and all the drops are strength. You can't even give the loot to a companion, cause consulars are stuck with Qyzen's aim-based tech-blade...

 

Removing mainstats (Aim/Cunning/Strenght/Willpower) removes flavor. Not much, just a little, but it does.

 

Aim, from a flavor perspective, is how good a shot someone is.

Cunning, from a flavor perspective, is how good at plotting and figuring things out someone is.

Strength, from a flavor perspective, is a measure of physical power.

Willpower, from a flavor perspective, is a measure of mental power.

 

Ehh, if I was going to complain about mastery causing a loss of flavor, I'd also be complaining that Snipers don't use aim. And for that matter, what to PT/Vanguards need aim for anyway? They're generally at point blank range. Or, to take that a step further, tech-blades. Who decided guys with sticks need aim?! (Yes, I know, it was so that you didn't have to dress Qyzen, etc in Jedi robes back before adaptive armor, but it still just feels wrong.)

Edited August 14, 2015 by Dontelar

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Curious but doesn't threads like this go against this thread here?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8377573#edit8377573

 

I mean none of this is actually official right?

[BrianDavion]

Getting one piece of armor set that is interchangeable between all characters and all companions is dumping down the game.

 

 

except armor will have set bonuses, so the only people able to do that swap are gonna be casuals anyway.

[Dontelar]

Curious but doesn't threads like this go against this thread here?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8377573#edit8377573

 

I mean none of this is actually official right?

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen everything here mentioned officially, so I don't think there's any datamining going on in this topic.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'm pretty sure I've seen everything here mentioned officially, so I don't think there's any datamining going on in this topic.

 

That's why I was asking if any of the part about '1 stat' was made official or not? Eric's post doesn't only mention data mining but anything that is unreleased and I don't recall this being released beyond heresay on Dulfy's site and of course the data mining people speak of.

[KorbanShepard]

That's why I was asking if any of the part about '1 stat' was made official or not? Eric's post doesn't only mention data mining but anything that is unreleased and I don't recall this being released beyond heresay on Dulfy's site and of course the data mining people speak of.

 

Thanks for pointing that out menace. My apologies to the devs, the dumbing down argument was annoying me and had propagated to the point that I had forgotten its being taboo. Honest mistake.

[AMightyKnight]

Thanks for pointing that out menace. My apologies to the devs, the dumbing down argument was annoying me and had propagated to the point that I had forgotten its being taboo. Honest mistake.

Relax, the mainstat merger was revealed by a dev at at the gamescom cantina. We were always allowed to discuss such rumors. Its even on dulfy, really a non issue as far as the mainstat thingy goes.

 

You're still wrong about dumbing down though. You just need to look further.

I cant explain it in detail on this forum, but think about what this change will do to crafting.

One mainstat will absoluteley crash the market by flodding the gtn because everyone will craft exactly the same stuff for dps and healers.

Edited August 14, 2015 by AMightyKnight

[Akow]

So, everyone in a group will be rolling on the same gear then? Is that what this comes down to ?

Bad enough when you have say 4 people rolling on same item , now the whole Fp/ OP group is rolling on it .

 

And this is good how?

 

If this is the route they wanted to go in the first place , then they should of did it at the start .

 

Have each class having its own stat , one slowed down gearing and made you run FP/OP for gear a lot .

Now, people will be needing on everything even if they have that item already and what are you going to say then?

are you going to check each persons gear before you start to make sure they don't roll on a item they already have ?

This will cause more trouble then the ninja looters we have now , because everyone will be rolling on the same items "expect weapons " but then you are going to have say both class of jedi/sith rolling on the same sabers .

 

Now, for people that solo most of the time this works out great for them . No more wanting a chest item with aim to drop and getting something with willpower etc

But maybe that's the reason being this huge stat change, seems we are heading towards more of a solo player game

[Tallwyn]

I also agree with the overall theme of the OP. It does make it easyer, but i would hardly call that dumbing down. I have alot of guildys who after 3 years havent figured out how to properly set up their character secondary stats...

 

They did figure out how the main stats work though...

 

Anyways, just yesterday i was tanking TOS and a "generic" 198 shield generator dropped, but it had Strenght on it, and i was on my Vanguard Tank. I could only use the Enhancement from it, and i did take it for that reason. The Guardian tank did not need any of the mods from it. If it was a mastery item, i could have used the mod aswell...

 

So... long story short, this will make gearing easyer.

[btmart]

Dude, nobody had to pay attention to their mainstat in the first place except possibly the very first time they rolled a character. It doesn't dumb down jack, because that somehow implies that the current status of the mainstat is somehow a mental challenge.

If knowing what mainstat works with what character, which as I pointed out at the beginning of this thread and just above isn't *********** rocket science except possibly to newbs, if that somehow makes you get up in the morning and feel more intelligent than the masses, then either you misunderstood what the word special meant when you were sent to that facility or at bare minimum, you might wish to re-evaluate your concept of what makes something smart versus what makes it dumb.

Is it easier? Yes. Is it simpler. Yes. That's not dumb though.

Having a calender to keep track of the days makes life simpler and easier but that's not dumb. Having a car to get across long distances makes life simpler and easier, but that's not dumb.

It just realigns the focus to more pressing concerns like in this case, tertiary and secondary stats. I get that people are concerned about changes to those. I don't know how much it will matter in the end, but I am curious.

Accusations of my intent regarding my comments make you look like an ******e, and I will call you out on that since you decided to "dress me down" on my opinion, while arguing so called convictions that you claim I have, even though I don't have them. You would do well to gather more facts than running your mouth. SMH...

 

Does combining all main stats into Mastery dumb it down? The obvious logical answer is yes.

Does combining all main stats into Mastery really matter? Absolutely not.

Is crit broken? Probably.

Is rolling crit into surge and making it one stat in and of itself dumbing it down? Definitely.

 

I work in IT. Back in the 90's and barely into the early 2000's, there was some prestige to being knowledgeable about how everything worked, and it took effort to learn it and understand it. Today people only have to click buttons, not really understand how it works. They just have to understand how to click the buttons correctly. Are we better for it? No. Just dumbed downed catering to those whom choose not to try harder.

 

Extrapolate that to end game PvE or PvP. Are we better for it? Probably not. There is a reason the guys at end game are the best.

Edited August 14, 2015 by btmart

[DreadtechSavant]

Good or bad, its to early to tell. its going to effect craft skills, and choices, again is this good or bad, still to early to tell.

[DCFDTL]

Wouldn't this change make every single person Need on every single damned equipment that doesn't have red texts?

[Akow]

Wouldn't this change make every single person Need on every single damned equipment that doesn't have red texts?

On armor yes , weapons and off-hands will be a toss up

[SimplyCooL]

I think its a poor change and a horrible genre practice. MMOs, being the persistent, updated and managed beasts they are, are constantly being altered, in subtle or major ways, sometimes not event by the original dev team. A lot of changes are not made for a better game, but to trim down any aspects that could possibly alienate someone, eliminate the learning curve.

 

 

 

Its an every MMO occurrence, that i've ever tried, watched, or read about. (LOTRO, WoW, Galaxies ...)After all, everyone can swim in shallow waters. Probably the worst dumbing down, i've heard of, was the NGE. It was done supposedly, because the company wanted instant gratification for players "kill, get treasure, repeat" and wanted to eliminate the scary depth.

 

 

 

Now, i'm NOT saying that's what KOTFE is. But think, what do we gain by this change? Even if it doesn't affect a thing, as of currently released information, the answer is nothing. Its a pointless alteration, that adds nothing to the game, but takes away gameplay. Never take away gameplay, or customastion.

 

 

 

Yes mastery = strength in practice, only now everyone can wear strength gear. So now all heavies can wear Jedi gear. (yes im aware of Adaptice peices) The Class loses its unique gear/its visual identity, everyone needs on every piece*(reducing chances even further), crafting is all messed up, etc..

 

 

 

As for supposed positives, i don't think altering the basics around the least attentive persons, who cant be bothered to read a sentence, should be the norm Bioware agenda. Its still solves nothing. Having a Tank show in DPS gear, still makes him useless. Is it really so difficult to instruct the clueless. Those who wanna learn, will. Those who wont, why do you want them in your group.

 

 

Its a bad change, even in lore. Jedi dont just mass Strength randomly, but because they rely on their physical condition, They use the Force to augment it, because they are primarily martial artists. Strength = Harder Hitting and is rightly so in all RPGs.

Gotta say, if the rumors are true about companions losing the ability to wear gear, i dont really wanna play this.

Edited August 14, 2015 by SimplyCooL

[Alssaran]

Now, i'm NOT saying that's what KOTFE is. But think, what do we gain by this change?

 

I think that question should be asked a lot more when coming up with new mechanics and/or redoing existing content.

 

Of course, Mastery is just a new term for the existing stats. The mechanic, which is that it boosts your characters abilities and power, is still the same. However, a certain part of unique behaviour to a class is lost again. It is a small, even minor change, but a step on a road to making all the classes kind of...feel the same.

 

There is no evident purpose to changing the attribute system in the way that is happening in KotFE. It doesn't add anything to the game. If anything, it takes away some game-time by making a "one fits all" solution to gearing. I can farm my DPS gear on a range DPS and then change it to whatever character I feel should have it. While that sounds awesome at first, please keep in mind that equipment isn't everything when playing a class. When gearing up a certain AC in the game, I get a certain feeling how to play it. Now, with new all purpose gear, players can just level a new AC and transfer gear at will. That still does not mean their skill with that AC is at all on a level to do the content.

 

Just because I have farmed range DPS gear on my Sage does not mean that I can just move it over to my Commando and still do the same operations or the same DPS. The classes play fundamentaly different. Tank classes too. My Assassin is a tank since...god, I can't remember. However, that doesn't mean I would be an equaly good Vanguard tank.

 

Of course, this is all paranoia right now. But what does the unifying of main stats accomplish for the game? What does it add? You can switch gear between characters at will due to the main stat being the same for all, but that's not really an addition. If anything, it might discourage people from running operations on more than one character. If there is no new thing to gain, why run them more than two or three times above full gear at all?

 

This change simply doesn't add anything to the game. I have yet to read a good reason why main stat has to be redone into an all for one solution, besides the obvious "making it simple for all" thing.

[ekwalizer]

Of course it changes things lol. You're going from 2-stats, in the above example, to 1. You're reducing the number of times players will need to do end game content to get the correct stats.

 

I'm not against it, but to say it doesn't change anything is disingenuous. It clearly does.

 

Set pieces will still be AC/spec specific.

[GordoKhan]

Not keen on the change to main stat, and I do believe it is dumbing down. If you are too lazy to gear properly, then who's fault is that? Take a few moments to read about the game. By going main stat you will have an impact on gear as well as crafting.

[BrotherJohn]

OP you are right on point. Thing people wont do is agree with you because they are afraid of chance. Gamers and MMO gamers in particular are horribly afraid of change. Main stat being labelled one name or another is just that main stat and means nothing. It was purely a carry over from ever other game out there that has ultimately copied itself from DnD. In DnD it has a place in an MMO it has little to no real meaning but a name. I applaud BW with going in another direction and wow just changing a name.

 

Now for the many many changes that are being talked about from data mined information that will only know when we actually get a complete breakdown from BW. And BW really needs to just come absolutely open about the changes to how class and gear are changing. They do not have to give us story arc and can remain tight lipped. They also don't have to fully talk about and post up information about the new stat system but in reality if they want to keep their player base happy and content they wont hide it and just tell us all. Its already a done deal as far as being released that much we all can assume but just tell us. It will stop people from posting hearsay and just start to discuss the real meat and potato of it.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Combining main stats will kill the need to raid by quite a bit. This is simply Bioware's solution to endgame raiding: cut the need to raid by 75%.

[DOHboy]

Combining main stats will kill the need to raid by quite a bit. This is simply Bioware's solution to endgame raiding: cut the need to raid by 75%.

 

How so? All raids already drop 1 set piece per boss, which is just a token gear. That hasn't killed raiding at all and just makes you run it more.