Why combining main-stats is neither bad nor "dumbing down' anything.

[asbalana]

Personally, I hate the idea of these changes.

 

I have a strong philosophical objection to changing basic mechanics of a fully mature MMO. I've seen it done before, and a plurality of the existing players always get screwed somehow.

 

I hate the idea of combining main stats because anything that makes the game more blandly generic is always a mistake.

 

I hate the idea of no longer being able to gear up my companions the way I choose, because they're my companions, dammit. This, for me, is part of the fun of the game, and they're taking that away from me.

 

And I greatly fear these changes will mean crafters getting even more screwed than we already have been by the greed of the Cartel Market. Changes to crafting are one of the most common ways for players to get shafted by "reforms" like this.

 

But whatever, my opinion means nothing. I'm just one more face in the crowd, one more insignificant little ant in the great internet ant hill. Full steam ahead to blatant worship of the dumbed-down, brain-dead least common denominator. Click and drool uber alles.

 

I agree much with your post.

 

In the end the market place will decide. Never forget, one ant may mean nothing but when many march they are an unstoppabl4e tide. We wil see how many ants march to the door a few months after the changes have settled in.

[Ikorus]

I definitely agree with the OP. It would be different if every attribute had a purpose, just a different one was emphasized for each class. For example, if Str was useful for all melee attacks, Will was useful for all force attacks, etc. A JK would need str because it is mostly melee, while a sage would need mostly Will. A shadow would need both Str and Will.

Of course, this is not the case. Having each class needing a certain attribute doesn't fulfill a purpose.

I've had times when I've been in an FP and no gear would drop that used my class' attribute. I've also had times when a different class would need roll my gear, either by mistake or on purpose.

When I pug, I usually only accept groups that don't have anyone else in my class because I want gear.

With this new system, everyone has a chance to get good gear. Weapons would be different, since they have barrels and hilts, but in most cases, everyone can use the mods.

 

I feel the need to point out that nobody so far has recognized that every class bar sage/sorcerer actually benefits from two stats. In terms of gearing its not important because you literally can't cap main stat afaik but it is something to keep in mind, especially if datacrons shift to +mastery. Technically every stat does something, because there are 4 attack types, but each class only has two types available.

 

Strength: Increases bonus damage and critical of ALL melee attacks (sorcer/sage does not receive this benefit, shadow/assassin does. Lord knows why. For knights/warriors, ALSO improves the bonus damage and critical of force attacks)

 

Willpower: Increases the bonus damage and critical of ALL force attacks (for consulars/inquisitors also increases bonus damage and critical of melee attacks)

 

Aim: Increases bonus damage and critical of ALL ranged attacks (particularly fascinating for gunslingers/snipers who use more ranged and less tech than do scoundrels/operatives. for republic troopers/bounty hunters also increases bonus damage and critical of tech attacks)

 

Cunning: increasss bonus damage and critical of ALL tech attacks (for smugglers/imperial agents also increases bonus damage and critical of ranged attacks.)

 

Definitely less relevant than back in the day when it was possible for dps and heals to actually hit DR on main stat, buf it IS a factor of the conversation people have been ignoring which bothered me.

[Khevar]

Definitely less relevant than back in the day when it was possible for dps and heals to actually hit DR on main stat, buf it IS a factor of the conversation people have been ignoring which bothered me.

I cannot speak for what it was like at launch (I started with 1.1, hit level 50 with 1.2), so perhaps things were different in Beta / 1.0?

 

But I've never seen any sort of theorycrafting that would suggest "alternate mainstats" having a benefit over the "correct mainstat". Are you seriously trying to say that you said:

 

"Whelp, I've hit the DR on AIM for my trooper, time to start stacking CUNNING"

Edited August 28, 2015 by Khevar

[DOHboy]

I feel the need to point out that nobody so far has recognized that every class bar sage/sorcerer actually benefits from two stats. In terms of gearing its not important because you literally can't cap main stat afaik but it is something to keep in mind, especially if datacrons shift to +mastery. Technically every stat does something, because there are 4 attack types, but each class only has two types available.

 

Strength: Increases bonus damage and critical of ALL melee attacks (sorcer/sage does not receive this benefit, shadow/assassin does. Lord knows why. For knights/warriors, ALSO improves the bonus damage and critical of force attacks)

 

Willpower: Increases the bonus damage and critical of ALL force attacks (for consulars/inquisitors also increases bonus damage and critical of melee attacks)

 

Aim: Increases bonus damage and critical of ALL ranged attacks (particularly fascinating for gunslingers/snipers who use more ranged and less tech than do scoundrels/operatives. for republic troopers/bounty hunters also increases bonus damage and critical of tech attacks)

 

Cunning: increasss bonus damage and critical of ALL tech attacks (for smugglers/imperial agents also increases bonus damage and critical of ranged attacks.)

 

Definitely less relevant than back in the day when it was possible for dps and heals to actually hit DR on main stat, buf it IS a factor of the conversation people have been ignoring which bothered me.

 

this stuff again?

 

If it was such a major stat boost you would be stacking a 50/50 mix of main stat and off stat to maximize the benefits of both. Since you don't, obviously it is NOT a significant increase in any measurable sense of the word.

[Ryuku-sama]

I cannot speak for what it was like at launch (I started with 1.1, hit level 50 with 1.2), so perhaps things were different in Beta / 1.0?

 

But I've never seen any sort of theorycrafting that would suggest "alternate mainstats" having a benefit over the "correct mainstat". Are you seriously trying to say that you said:

 

"Whelp, I've hit the DR on AIM for my trooper, time to start stacking CUNNING"

 

There is a DR on crit from main stat. Problem is alternate main stat doesn't boost over half the damage of most specs.

Only exception is Marksman Sniper assuming you don't use Corrosive Dart except for Marked.. This is possible mainly because Snipe does more damage than Corrosive Dart when it crits which happens fairly often with 3 Honed Shots stacks. Note this wasn't true before 3.0. In PvP.. Where you don't really use Corrosive Dart as Marksman for its damage, you could easily use some Aim instead of Cunning and thus raising your ranged crit chance by 1.5-1.6%. All in all the trade COULD be worth it.

[BadHoneyBadger]

If they do away with main stats will this mean that all the work players put in for datacrons will be useless as well? Will they remove those stats from players?

[DOHboy]

If they do away with main stats will this mean that all the work players put in for datacrons will be useless as well? Will they remove those stats from players?

 

you mean the 50 points in every off skill that gives your char nothing other than codex entries and a decoration?

 

seriously what benefit did you get from aim on a JK? yet you still got it, not sure it was "work'

 

they have also said they are looking at making datacrons as legacy items.

 

they have said nothing else on what is happening to the datacrons. you'll probably keep the end and presence and shards, everything else will convert to main stat (if it was a main stat) rest just codex entries.

[Khevar]

There is a DR on crit from main stat. Problem is alternate main stat doesn't boost over half the damage of most specs.

Only exception is Marksman Sniper assuming you don't use Corrosive Dart except for Marked.. This is possible mainly because Snipe does more damage than Corrosive Dart when it crits which happens fairly often with 3 Honed Shots stacks. Note this wasn't true before 3.0. In PvP.. Where you don't really use Corrosive Dart as Marksman for its damage, you could easily use some Aim instead of Cunning and thus raising your ranged crit chance by 1.5-1.6%. All in all the trade COULD be worth it.

1.5% crit difference by swapping some Cunning gear to Aim gear?

 

Here's KBN's formula for main stat crit rating (as of 2.0): 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( PrimaryStat / 55 ) / 5.5 ) )

 

4000 Cunning = 9.98% crit.

 

To boost your crit by an additional 1.5%, you'd have to swap 1400 points of Cunning for Aim.

 

2600 Cunning = 7.13%

1400 Aim = 4.22%

Total = 11.35%

 

Are you saying this is a viable gearing strategy?

[Darth_Advent]

Yea, and there's also a reason the term "neckbeard" exists. Funny, innit?

 

Perfect.

[Max_Killjoy]

I am confused as to what people mean by "stat builds", because despite all of that talk, it is total BS. Companions NEVER MATTERED, just give them whatever gear gives them the correct stat and poof, they are fine. If you actually went out of your way to give them a VERY specific build, guess, what, it meant ZERO, nothing, it did not help you one bit, nor did yo get anything for actually doing it. You wasted loads of time to do something that did not matter at all.

 

Have you ever actually looked at the character sheet for your companions, and noted their stats?

 

Do you really think that there's no difference between a healer comp who crits 10% of the time, and one who crits 30% of the time? Do you really think that there's no difference between a tank comp who has 45k HP and 30% shield rate, vs one who has 35k HP and 25% shield rate?

 

Have you never noticed that maxing out your companion's gear can make a huge difference in trying to solo max-level Heroic content?

 

 

as for players, yeah, sorry, there was, and is, no such thing as "multiple builds" when it came to stats, everyone wore the exact same things, and had the same stats. IF you say differently, well, guess what, it did not matter anyway because you played the exact same as everyone else with that class.

 

So... you're one of those subscribes to the "everyone builds exactly the same" faith.

 

I guess that explains why you think companion gearing makes no difference at all...

[Couver]

Getting one piece of armor set that is interchangeable between all characters and all companions is dumping down the game.

Mainstat will be the same between all classes. If you want to send your dps Sentinel set bonus gear over to your PT tank, then that's on you. Let us know how it works out for you.

[KorbanShepard]

well said.... too many changes for no real reason.

 

Actually, the reason for it probably has more to do with the dev side of things. By combining a bunch of otherwise similar stats into one (i.e., they all do the same basic thing just are attributed to 4 different classes, but otherwise are indistinguishable from one another) the dev team is eliminating some overhead in terms of having to have one of four attributes tagged to every item that they produce for the game. It may not seem like a lot, and in some ways it's not, but small things add up a lot and eat up time and resources.

[KorbanShepard]

Personally, I hate the idea of these changes.

 

I have a strong philosophical objection to changing basic mechanics of a fully mature MMO. I've seen it done before, and a plurality of the existing players always get screwed somehow.

 

I hate the idea of combining main stats because anything that makes the game more blandly generic is always a mistake.

 

I hate the idea of no longer being able to gear up my companions the way I choose, because they're my companions, dammit. This, for me, is part of the fun of the game, and they're taking that away from me.

 

And I greatly fear these changes will mean crafters getting even more screwed than we already have been by the greed of the Cartel Market. Changes to crafting are one of the most common ways for players to get shafted by "reforms" like this.

 

But whatever, my opinion means nothing. I'm just one more face in the crowd, one more insignificant little ant in the great internet ant hill. Full steam ahead to blatant worship of the dumbed-down, brain-dead least common denominator. Click and drool uber alles.

 

So, first off, I agree that the companion thing is dumbing down the game. Honestly, it's not that big of a deal to me and really it's more convenient for me than it is a hinderance, but I can get why someone might see it as a problem.

 

The mainstat bit though, I'm not budging.

 

Think about it this way: It's not as though it benefits you as a Warrior to use Willpower versus some other stat like alacrity, crit, power, endurance, etc. Why? Because Willpower would A) just replace your Strength stat some which would not help anything at all B) there's no difference between the two other than Willpower= Consular/Inquisitor and Strength=Warrior/Knight. B) is the crux of my argument. Willpower, Strength, Aim, and Cunning are already all the exact same stat. There's no difference beyond an arbitrary attribution scheme for various classes. The names are different, but the effect is the same. All Bioware is doing is simplifying that down, that's it.

 

Sure, we are going from a more complex system to a simpler system. But, I think people are confusing the complexity of the former scheme with intelligent design (not the religious argument, no no no no).

But really, why was that ever good from a design standpoint to have four different stats that do exactly the same thing just assigned to different classes that only arbitrarily called classes anyways (particularly when some can be the entire trinity while others can be at least 2 of the trinity of MMO class configuration thus making the word class a dubious distinction in the way in which we normally think of it)?

Or to put it in another way: It's not as though there was any intelligence behind the original scheme anyways so by simplifying it into a system that works better for devs logically, you're not dumbing down the system but really improving upon it by eliminating the waste.

All it does is add an unnecessary confusion for some players and add to the things that devs always have to assign an attribute for to various weapons and armor.

 

 

If the stats were really different.. if they really mattered... You'd see people with their main class stat, say a Warrior (since I'm leveling that right now) who has Strength, augmented with one of the other three (Aim??? maybe not) that would each add to my Warrior's play in some meaningful way. If that were true, and then they reduced it all down to mainstat, then they'd be dumbing down the game. No doubt about it.

But that's not true. The stats don't add anything unique to any class whatsoever aside from a silly naming scheme.

 

Now, someone did argue that taking away that naming scheme (sorry for calling it silly just then) would making the classes more homogenous, and you're entitled to your opinion on the matter, but I just don't see that as flying. Of course an Agent or Smuggler would need cunning to get through tough situations, and of course a Bounty Hunter or top notch trooper ought to have good aim, and of course it takes great strength and/or willpower to handle the great mystery known as the force. Those things go without saying. I don't need a word next to a completely arbitrary stat to understand that.

 

 

Lastly, they have already mentioned that crafting is changing and they mentioned that well before mainstat came out. Besides, crafting is already on it's way to being a shadow of what it was thanks to comms that they just throw towards you at this point.

Edited August 29, 2015 by KorbanShepard

[Ryuku-sama]

1.5% crit difference by swapping some Cunning gear to Aim gear?

 

Here's KBN's formula for main stat crit rating (as of 2.0): 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( PrimaryStat / 55 ) / 5.5 ) )

 

4000 Cunning = 9.98% crit.

 

To boost your crit by an additional 1.5%, you'd have to swap 1400 points of Cunning for Aim.

 

2600 Cunning = 7.13%

1400 Aim = 4.22%

Total = 11.35%

 

Are you saying this is a viable gearing strategy?

 

For Marksman AND ONLY Marksman. Yes. In Marksman, Corrosive Dart, its only ability not affected by Aim, does less damage for the same amount of energy than Snipe assuming Snipe crits about 40% of the time... Which is average with Honed Shot at three stacks.

For everything else. No it's not.

[Khevar]

For Marksman AND ONLY Marksman. Yes. In Marksman, Corrosive Dart, its only ability not affected by Aim, does less damage for the same amount of energy than Snipe assuming Snipe crits about 40% of the time... Which is average with Honed Shot at three stacks.

For everything else. No it's not.

Fascinating.

 

Do you know anyone that actually does that? Runs almost a third of their main stat budget as Aim instead of Cunning?

[Ryuku-sama]

Fascinating.

 

Do you know anyone that actually does that? Runs almost a third of their main stat budget as Aim instead of Cunning?

 

Not really. For a really good reason. Unless you're really into perfect min-maxing, it's way simpler to just have one set of gear for all three specs.. And only one of them doesn't really use any tech attacks : Marksman. Then.. In raid, Corrosive Dart takes up more damage because we have to use it for Marked and it's useful to keep doing damage in movement phases. In PvP tho. There is definately a few people doing it as you can see in this thread.

Problem is it requires a lot of time because you need to buy BH mods and swap them out with your Sniper set mods because you definately need the armorings. Few poeple will invest in that for such a small theoritical gain in PvP.

[Khevar]

Dayam. I learned me something.

 

Thanks!

[Trinid]

You mean how the games stats already was no different except for the name? Agents used cunning the same was a Bounty Hunter used Aim, or a JEdi Knight used Strength. There already WAS no difference besides name. It is not as if there was a difference in stats to begin with. It is not as if the reason the warrior/knight used Str was because it increased melee damage. nope, it did the same thing as cunning does for an agent

 

why? because the companions NEEDED a specific set of stats? because that is completely bull and you know it. Every trooper companion used aim gear for example, just give them stuff with aim on it and ta da, perfectly fine. if you say differently, i am sorry to say, you must not have been playing the same game i was.

 

crafters already were only useful for the outfit designer and biochem/cybertech were the only ones that actuyally had any real use. if anything, they made crafters more relevant now because now you can change the loot of companions with gear without worrying, as well as the player.

 

This post perfectly explains why I'm fine with these changes. The system is already dumbed down, it simply pretends otherwise by giving various classes their own flavor of the exact same thing. The changes incoming will just remove the arbitrary restrictions that arise as a result of that system.

[Max_Killjoy]

This post perfectly explains why I'm fine with these changes. The system is already dumbed down, it simply pretends otherwise by giving various classes their own flavor of the exact same thing. The changes incoming will just remove the arbitrary restrictions that arise as a result of that system.

 

IF all they were doing was merging the 4 "main stats" into 1 "main stat", I'd consider it an unobjectionable change, if probably a bit of a waste of time and effort that could have been spent on more important things.

[Transcendent]

None of these stats really do anything different with the exception that they only apply to one of four general classes.

 

I'll be honest, I stopped reading right here.

 

Aim = Ranged stat.

Cunning = Melee stat.

Strength = Melee stat.

Willpower = Ranged stat.

 

So yes, they're different. Technically there are two types of mainstat, one for ranged and one for melee. Mastery combines those two types into one, is this a bad thing? I'm on the fence on this point.

 

However the point about it dumbing down the game, so players don't take the time to learn their class properly is not a good thing. So much casual it's becoming more like the Sims: Star Wars than an mmo where you actually have the RPG elements (read - grind) slowly being nudged out to make the game noob friendly.

 

We've already seen it with Skill Trees going to Disciplines, and the terrible decisions with the utilities that the devs made for some classes, how this isn't always a good thing.

 

The stat change certainly isn't for balancing purposes, because it's quite clear that BioWare can't balance the game. So what's the decision making behind this? I'm betting on it being purely to try to attract more casual players with 4.0 so BioWare can monetise them.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'll be honest, I stopped reading right here.

 

Aim = Ranged stat.

Cunning = Melee stat.

Strength = Melee stat.

Willpower = Ranged stat.

 

So yes, they're different. Technically there are two types of mainstat, one for ranged and one for melee. Mastery combines those two types into one, is this a bad thing? I'm on the fence on this point.

 

However the point about it dumbing down the game, so players don't take the time to learn their class properly is not a good thing. So much casual it's becoming more like the Sims: Star Wars than an mmo where you actually have the RPG elements (read - grind) slowly being nudged out to make the game noob friendly.

 

We've already seen it with Skill Trees going to Disciplines, and the terrible decisions with the utilities that the devs made for some classes, how this isn't always a good thing.

 

The stat change certainly isn't for balancing purposes, because it's quite clear that BioWare can't balance the game. So what's the decision making behind this? I'm betting on it being purely to try to attract more casual players with 4.0 so BioWare can monetise them.

 

On the range vs melee thing, it gets more involved than that, even -- the Advanced Class in question changes whether the Cunning or Willpower based Classes are Ranged or Melee.

[Pirana]

I'll be honest, I stopped reading right here.

 

Aim = Ranged stat.

Cunning = Melee stat.

Strength = Melee stat.

Willpower = Ranged stat.

 

So yes, they're different. Technically there are two types of mainstat, one for ranged and one for melee. Mastery combines those two types into one, is this a bad thing? I'm on the fence on this point.

 

However the point about it dumbing down the game, so players don't take the time to learn their class properly is not a good thing. So much casual it's becoming more like the Sims: Star Wars than an mmo where you actually have the RPG elements (read - grind) slowly being nudged out to make the game noob friendly.

 

We've already seen it with Skill Trees going to Disciplines, and the terrible decisions with the utilities that the devs made for some classes, how this isn't always a good thing.

 

The stat change certainly isn't for balancing purposes, because it's quite clear that BioWare can't balance the game. So what's the decision making behind this? I'm betting on it being purely to try to attract more casual players with 4.0 so BioWare can monetise them.

 

Pretty much.

 

Skill trees made easy

Gearing, soon to be made easy

 

In other words, it may not be dumb-ing the game down, but it's certainly making it much easier.

 

[Gelotri]

I have been haphazardly following this thread and had time to think about all that is impacted by the changes. On the surface, it wouldn't seem like the changes affect much from a player gearing perspective. To me it is one of those changes that prevents you from "seeing the forest for the trees", so to speak.

 

Reduction in decisions to make

Basically the player wont have to think very much about gearing choices until about mid-game onward. This is where the benefits stop for the players. At that point it only helps the dev team in that there is less sweeping changes to consider when adding or altering game mechanics.

 

Reduction in Comm sinks

This kind of roles into the reduction in decisions to make as well. I like to gear out three of my companions. Tank, DPS, and healer for when I go at solo content. It then boils down to which one I commit comms toward during leveling of alts when comms are scarce. It seems like a minor thing, but when you think about it, it prevents the leveling player from having to make any crucial decisions, even if it is just a short-term decision.

 

Reduction in credit sink

Follows the same train of thought from the previous. Applies to the GTN and purchasing of gear or mods. again, On the surface it doesn't look like that big of a deal. However, with new and leveling players, it does remove some of the strain of critical decision making and where to put those meager credits..

 

Crafting

This is where the brunt of the changes are hitting home in my mind. Not only are the changes going to possibly mean removal of some of the crafting recipes and choices (unless they alter those recipes differentiated only by the main stats) but it will also be removing a resource sink. Simply put, to some degree if there is an over abundance of mods or gear with a certain main stat on the market and they aren't needed, then they took valuable resources to make and removed those resources from play. Even if they were RE'd, they wouldn't give back but a fraction of the resources used. While they are at it, they may as well remove "Barrels" and "Hilts" and replace them "Primary Component".

 

Each of the above areas don't seem like much individually, but overall the changes coming will impact a great deal and to me it is being down-played to ease community concern. It also does look like things are being dumbed down to a certain degree by removing certain sinks and the need for decision making. At end-game, the changes wont really impact much aside from the crafting aspects.

 

I know it seems I am adamantly against the changes, and maybe to some degree I am. But I can also see the upsides.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Gelotri
Adding an additional thought

[branmakmuffin]

I'll be honest, I stopped reading right here.

 

Aim = Ranged stat.

Cunning = Melee stat.

Strength = Melee stat.

Willpower = Ranged stat.

 

So yes, they're different.

Frankly, in all candor, I'll be honest, I stopped reading right here.

 

So, an Agent needs Aim for ranged attacks? A Shadow needs Strength for melee attacks?

[Transcendent]

On the range vs melee thing, it gets more involved than that, even -- the Advanced Class in question changes whether the Cunning or Willpower based Classes are Ranged or Melee.

 

I was trying to be simplistic to point out the variation in the stats and what they actually do, such as Aim will increase the dmg on ranged attack for a Sniper who's primary stat is Cunning (not that you would ever use Aim....).