Hardcore players are bane of mmos in current stage

[FerkWork]

But NIM requires you to only step in your color, which means you can't run circles.

 

Again it depends on what are we talking about, if we were talking about new ops like Rav, ToS or the Monloith, then sure it should be a real challenge to players. But for a 2-3 years old content that has lower or even much lower tier gear drop than easy story quests(Ziost), it should be very easy. EC NIM also have some mechanic like don't kill Firebrand first, minefield and the droids in Kephess stage. But ppl with basic knowledge can handle it well, TFB HM/NIM and other level 55 ops are not the case.

 

Sure it's just 5 level but it has been 2-3 years since the content has come out, which has long passed its era. And even the gears we could get from short story quests/dailies are much higher tier than its drop. It shouldn't be much of a problem for most of the pugs with a full group, no.

 

You know it's going to be bumped up in less than 2 months with Lv 65 gear so the issue is moot.

[Slowpokeking]

You know it's going to be bumped up in less than 2 months with Lv 65 gear so the issue is moot.

 

And I don't support it. I think we need NEW OPS, not re-scale old ones.

[DNGDangerous]

Yah you hard core players ruin mmos! i want to log in once a day without doing anything at all, and recieve my raid gear! I dont see why people play mmos with other people. Its dumb. Ok sorry I was a bit harsh there.

 

But seriously- story mode is there... You get to see the content- Cool right? You even get commendations. I honestly dont see why there is so much animosity towards hardcore players. They play just as much or more then casuals on average. They also are the few faithful to continuing subscriptions.

 

Sure there are casuals who have been playing since day 1 collectors edition- but they are already in their confort zone. They dont want to be challenged, they want to see the story as if it was a single player game and maybe interact with their chosen circle of friends.

 

Everyone who wants to be challenged- if even a little bit... Those people who I consider hard core. Take me, for instance- I am definatelly casual! I bearly log in once a week. Heck I canceled my subscription once in the past and bearly came back recently. I finished leveling my marauder to 60 and am content. I love how this game has Story mode versions of OPs! Thats cool.

 

I used to be hardcore, got my Infernal title and what not. Did denova HM and Terror beyond. I spent a large portion of my SWToR career in this hardcore zone. Let me tell you guys, there isnt much for hardcore players to do, bioware bearly caters to them. Let them have their fun, because there really isnt much to do- there arent that many raids added since launch.

 

Now that i found my confort zone in casual land, I realize I am not really missing much. heck this new story mode feature with a god mode droid is ridiculous for flashpoints. This droid could save the universe without me. Im pretty sure now that I have had a taste of casual land, Depending on what they do with the new expansion, I might stay this way forever. Life is good!

Edited August 14, 2015 by DNGDangerous

[Khevar]

Many people did fail to interrupt. But it's not one shot and it doesn't require you to move or figure out the color, you just need to watch it on, ready to click for it when the channel pop up. Even if one of them reached full stacks it's not a big deal.

You are misremembering the effects of Calibrating Shot.

 

Once a droid reaches full stacks, they have effectively 100% damage reduction, cannot be killed, and the fight won't progress to the nest phase, requiring a /stuck to restart the fight.

 

When NM EC was relevant content, many many groups trouble with that particular mechanic.

[Icestar]

I think we need NEW OPS, not re-scale old ones.

 

We will get new OPS, not this year they have said they will start working on it when they are done with the story.

[Slowpokeking]

You are misremembering the effects of Calibrating Shot.

 

Once a droid reaches full stacks, they have effectively 100% damage reduction, cannot be killed, and the fight won't progress to the nest phase, requiring a /stuck to restart the fight.

 

When NM EC was relevant content, many many groups trouble with that particular mechanic.

 

No, they can be killed, the full stacks grant them around 80-90% reduction only and a burst on damage output. We once had all 3 went full stacks and still took them all down and finished Kephess. 1 went full stacks is usually not a big deal to a group with 6 or more.

[Slowpokeking]

We will get new OPS, not this year they have said they will start working on it when they are done with the story.

 

Then they shouldn't re-scale all the old FP/ops to level 65s.

[Khevar]

No, they can be killed, the full stacks grant them around 80-90% reduction only and a burst on damage output. We once had all 3 went full stacks and still took them all down and finished Kephess. 1 went full stacks is usually not a big deal to a group with 6 or more.

Were you level 50, level 55 or level 60?

 

Edit: Also: Was it HM or NM?

Edited August 14, 2015 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Were you level 50, level 55 or level 60?

 

Edit: Also: Was it HM or NM?

 

I don't think damage reduction has anything to do with level. If it was 100% then it shouldn't take damage regardless of level.

 

All NiM.

[Khevar]

I don't think damage reduction has anything to do with level. If it was 100% then it shouldn't take damage regardless of level.

 

All NiM.

The last time I ran NM EC was about 18 months ago, so I cannot speak to how it operates today. But pre 2.0 the NM siege droids would experience 100% damage reduction at around 8 stacks. Come to think of it, didn't tooltip for the buff may say something like "12% damage reduction per stack"?

 

Post 2.0 I had a couple of pugs wipe on the siege droids as we were mistiming the interrupts (e.g. two people blew their interrupt at the same time so everyone would be on CD next shot). At full stacks the droids were not taking ANY damage and we had to /stuck.

 

If this is no longer the case, then either the 10-level difference allows the player to overcome the effects of Calibrating Shot (more likely) or the fight was retuned (less likely).

Edited August 14, 2015 by Khevar

[onegoldpls]

I agree that 55 lvl nims are still extremly hard too, but it's comletely bioware failure because 5 more lvls doesn't buff players that much. Bioware are just super lazy to touch their content.

But I'm more afraid for 4.0 . I really hope they will remove underlurker nightmare and everything like that from story mode. But it still not enough, majority of players should farm some hardmodes atleast too.

Edited August 15, 2015 by onegoldpls

[onegoldpls]

.

But seriously- story mode is there... You get to see the content- Cool right? You even get commendations. I honestly dont see why there is so much animosity towards hardcore players. They play just as much or more then casuals on average. They also are the few faithful to continuing subscriptions.

 

Sure there are casuals who have been playing since day 1 collectors edition- but they are already in their confort zone. They dont want to be challenged, they want to see the story as if it was a single player game and maybe interact with their chosen circle of friends.

You are absolutely wrong. Im in semi casual/hardcore guild. We have a stable hm group there and a lot of random players in guild. When they congrats us with progression achivement, my heart bleeds, because they have no chances to be with us. And I'm sure they would gladly be there. Players like them usually abandon the game very soon.

 

When these guys can't pass lurker story in half-pug runs, I always try to help them. I see that absolutely biggest part of community doesn't need difficult raids to have fun, that's why I made all these threads about nerfs and not because I'm some noob.

Edited August 15, 2015 by onegoldpls

[Raansu]

We will get new OPS, not this year they have said they will start working on it when they are done with the story.

 

And you believe them? You poor thing. End game is dead.

[Khevar]

You are absolutely wrong. Im in semi casual/hardcore guild. We have a stable hm group there and a lot of random players in guild. When they congrats us with progression achivement, my heart bleeds, because they have no chances to be with us. And I'm sure they would gladly be there. Players like them usually abandon the game very soon.

"Most players aren't running HM ops. Therefore REMOVE THIS CONTENT so they can't play it."

 

:confused:

 

What are you trying to solve? Developer resources or something? It's not like the amount of operations content we've gotten in the last 2 years (with not much to look forward to in the immediate future) is really taking up much of the budget ...

Edited August 15, 2015 by Khevar

[CheaterLL]

Storymode for the story

Hardmode for the casual's challenge

Nightmare for the hardcore players

 

I don't support the removal of NM. Because they raised the difficulty of SM so pugging has become a pain in the ***.

I want a challenge in my raid group as well as doing an easy pug run on a twink when I'm not running with my guild.

If they remove HM as well I will literally quit right away. Because IMO that is total BS.

If a player wants to have 10/10 HM or NM then they should have to do something for that. I can't just go to the next car dealer and demand that I want a Bugatti Veyron right now and for free. That's the same thing. Want a new car? Work and earn your money. Want to kill Revan HM? Work and earn your gear and go kill him. Some people will never be able to kill the top tier boss because they aren't good at swtor, just like some people will never earn enough money to buy a Bugatti because they aren't good in a job that has high enough wages.

[Gardimuer]

"Most players aren't running HM ops. Therefore REMOVE THIS CONTENT so they can't play it."

 

:confused:

 

How dare you apply logic and reason to this!

 

Personally, I agree with op, but I think we should apply this proposed solution in real-life too. We should abolish the Olympics because they cause bad feelings for the casual sports players who will never achieve that level of skill. This is really killing the athletic community and discourages people from participating in sports.

[Slowpokeking]

The last time I ran NM EC was about 18 months ago, so I cannot speak to how it operates today. But pre 2.0 the NM siege droids would experience 100% damage reduction at around 8 stacks. Come to think of it, didn't tooltip for the buff may say something like "12% damage reduction per stack"?

 

Post 2.0 I had a couple of pugs wipe on the siege droids as we were mistiming the interrupts (e.g. two people blew their interrupt at the same time so everyone would be on CD next shot). At full stacks the droids were not taking ANY damage and we had to /stuck.

 

If this is no longer the case, then either the 10-level difference allows the player to overcome the effects of Calibrating Shot (more likely) or the fight was retuned (less likely).

 

Try it now then we will discuss it.

[Slowpokeking]

I agree that 55 lvl nims are still extremly hard too, but it's comletely bioware failure because 5 more lvls doesn't buff players that much. Bioware are just super lazy to touch their content.

But I'm more afraid for 4.0 . I really hope they will remove underlurker nightmare and everything like that from story mode. But it still not enough, majority of players should farm some hardmodes atleast too.

 

I'm still not sure about it.

 

We aren't just 5 levels higher, we got new skills and 190-198 gears. The level 55 nim ops are designed for level 55 players with <180-186 gears to try it, shouldn't level 60 overgeared ppl run the ops a lot easier than a bit easier? Or Bioware indeed nerfed our class in 3.0?

[midianlord]

Solution:

 

Get better.

 

Quit crying.

 

Profit.

 

This game isn't that hard, with certain exceptions. It just isn't.

[TcRenno]

Not just in SWTOR but in every other mmo developers always try to satisfie two group of player: casuals and professional/hardcores.

The problem is that majority(casuals) simply can't be satisfied if hardcores(absolute minority 1-2% of all players) can be.

Hardcore players have all content avalable, while casuals(not very skilled players) have only part of it. Tthey want more, but they can't because they don't have enough skill - as result they quit which is bad for a game

Until developers forget about these cancerous hardcore communities and make mmo easy and happy for casuals, mmos will die. This same thing applies to wow, swtor and different mmos.

 

And the solution is simple - remove hard pve content.

Who want some challenge - pvp is your home.

 

LOL Everyone gets a trophy. I like it! #kappa

[eatmydeece]

so i read 4 pages of this garbage... /yawn

 

leave us elitist c**** alone

 

what do you define as a hardcore player? time played? player skill? my epeen is bigger than your epeen? look at mah sweet gear i bought off a 10/10 guild? i have all cartel stuff unlocked? i have over 1 billion credits?

 

i actually blame the casuals cries for easy content for ruining the game, people are not learning anything if they can faceroll content.

Lets face it, if it can be facerolled it loses its appeal very quickly with alot of people.

 

First thing you do when playing a board game for the first time is read the instructions so you know how to play.

Same should apply to video games yeah, learn to play the game and youll get the most out of it.

 

Its sheer laziness on most peoples part as to why they cannot complete the content, they dont want to improve or "learn how to play the game"

 

they instead want the Developers to make it so you can auto attack your way to victory, which is sad because it removes the challenge of content.

I think casuals need to stop crying and saying that "hardcore" players are the bane of mmo's and actually learn to play the game.

 

All that being said, it wouldnt hurt Bioware to include some guides built into game that help new players with endgame content (flashpoints, operations etc...)

 

 

tldr: learn to play the game you are playing and stop button mashing

 

/rant

[FerkWork]

and stop button mashing[/Quote]

 

But I play a PT tank, that is our rotation

Edited August 15, 2015 by FerkWork

[rantboi]

I'm still not sure about it.

 

We aren't just 5 levels higher, we got new skills and 190-198 gears. The level 55 nim ops are designed for level 55 players with <180-186 gears to try it, shouldn't level 60 overgeared ppl run the ops a lot easier than a bit easier? Or Bioware indeed nerfed our class in 3.0?

 

it IS a lot easier. You rarely have to worry about enrage, damage doesn't get so high that healers have trouble keeping up and you can survive a lot of things that would've killed you at 55. if you're wiping now it's because someone ****ed up the mechanics and gear or hp can't really help you with that.

[Cheveu]

The worst part in this in that the new expansion could satisfy a lot of people because there will be a LOT of content to do (even though we all cleaned all of it for years).

 

But if the operations were tested and tuned properly there could be a huge curve going from SM EC/S&V/TFB (easyest and first tier of gear) to HM ToS/Rava NIM DF/DP (highest tier of gear/difficulty)

 

It could go like this :

 

 

Easy tier, ilevel 204 (or whatever)

This is the entry point for pick up and average guilds, this is content for when you just dinged and have a bit of gear with your guild, or if you have Flashpoint gear in pick up

SM Eternity Vault

SM Karagga's Palace

SM Explosive Conflict

SM Terror From Beyond

SM Scum and Villainy

• This can be done in pick up if everybody is fully geared in 198.
  
• This is easily done by average guild.
  
• Good and top guilds can do it in 16m while being 8 if they fancy it.
  

 

 

Middle tier, ilevel 210

This is harder than the previous tier but you can do it quite easily provided you have the gear, this is the entry point for good and top guilds. By the time new content is out, everybody can farm it in pick up, even your unused alt are fully geared in 210

HM Eternity Vault

HM Karagga's Palace

HM Explosive Conflict

HM Terror From Beyond

HM Scum and Villainy

SM Dread Fortress

SM Dread Palace

 

• This can be done in pick up if everybody is fully geared in 210.
  
• This is easily done by average guild geared in 210.
  
• Good and top guilds can do it easily. Those guilds will probably go there 2 timers and then everybody will be fully geared
  

Gear wise :

EV/KP -> One toon fully geared, EC/TFB -> 2nd, S&V -> almost a 3rd (complete with HM Golden Fury/SM Monolith), DP/DF -> 4th toon geared.

I know this breaks the historical SWTOR tiering but whatever if it's new it's new. Players who are playing for less than 2 years don't know half of this content anyway.

 

 

Hard tier, ilevel 216

This content is where the bulk of the PvE guilds will be

SM Ravager

SM Temple of Sacrifice

HM Dread Fortress

HM Dread Palace

NM Eternity Vault

NM Karagga's Palace

NM Explosive Conflict

NM Terror From Beyond

NM Scum and Villainy

 

• This can be partly done in pick up if everybody is fully geared in 210, but will be unlikely before month into the expansion.
  
• This is where average guilds do their progression.
  
• Good guilds can do it without too much problems as long as they come with a full 210 gear.
  
• Top guilds will advance here quickly, but it will depend on how farmed they are 210-wise.
  

As long as gear goes :

EV/KP -> One toon fully geared, EC/TFB -> same, S&V -> almost a 3rd (complete with HM Golden Fury/SM Monolith), DP/DF -> 4th toon geared, Ravager/ToS -> 5th toon geared.

 

 

Nightmare tier, ilevel 222

This content is for people who like/want a real challenge

HM Ravager

HM Temple of Sacrifice

NM Dread Fortress

NM Dread Palace

 

• Pick up can't go there
  
• Average guild will clean it after nerf (which means when 228 gear is out)
  
• This is where good guilds with 216 gear will do their progression
  
• This can be attempted and will be challengeing for top guilds without optimal gear
  

 

Gear wise :

Just as today -> DF/DP will give all the gear for one toon and Rav/ToS will give all the gear for a second one.

 

 

 

This would require to fine tune every single fight but their would no longer be any "thrash boss" like sparky. When you'd go to Ravager or ToS, every single boss would be hard. This way everybody would be able to do all the content, clear every operation while still having the game interesting for hardcore players.

Top guilds progression would be something like this:

1 lockout easy/middle tier

1 to 2 lockouts hard tier

1 to 2 lockouts nightmare tier

I'm talking about the top 5 to 10 guilds out there, which will do 6 or 7 nights of 4-5 hours of raiding.

 

Good guilds would do something like this:

2 lockouts middle tier

2 lockouts hard tier

2 to 4 lockouts to reach the final bosses of nightmare tier

2 to 4 lockouts to kill all the final bosses

 

Average guild would be around the end of the hard tier after 3 months, probably well into nightmare tier after 6 months.

Pick up would be able to go as far as hard tier after 6 months.

 

 

With a method like this I think everybody could be kept interested in the operations, and top guilds could feel like BW actually gives a damn about them.

After 6 months they could just add a "nightmare buff" to a random operation from the nightmare pool, making it even harder, that would give a title and one mount to keep things interesting for big guilds.

 

Anyway this, in my opinion, would not take thousand of hours of work, it mostly needs testing and adjusting numbers. BW could pick one or two guilds and give them a PTS access to help them fine tune it, this way it would not even cost a lot of money... :/

[Toraak]

The worst part in this in that the new expansion could satisfy a lot of people because there will be a LOT of content to do (even though we all cleaned all of it for years).

 

But if the operations were tested and tuned properly there could be a huge curve going from SM EC/S&V/TFB (easyest and first tier of gear) to HM ToS/Rava NIM DF/DP (highest tier of gear/difficulty)

 

It could go like this :

 

 

Easy tier, ilevel 204 (or whatever)

This is the entry point for pick up and average guilds, this is content for when you just dinged and have a bit of gear with your guild, or if you have Flashpoint gear in pick up

SM Eternity Vault

SM Karagga's Palace

SM Explosive Conflict

SM Terror From Beyond

SM Scum and Villainy

• This can be done in pick up if everybody is fully geared in 198.
  
• This is easily done by average guild.
  
• Good and top guilds can do it in 16m while being 8 if they fancy it.
  

 

 

Middle tier, ilevel 210

This is harder than the previous tier but you can do it quite easily provided you have the gear, this is the entry point for good and top guilds. By the time new content is out, everybody can farm it in pick up, even your unused alt are fully geared in 210

HM Eternity Vault

HM Karagga's Palace

HM Explosive Conflict

HM Terror From Beyond

HM Scum and Villainy

SM Dread Fortress

SM Dread Palace

 

• This can be done in pick up if everybody is fully geared in 210.
  
• This is easily done by average guild geared in 210.
  
• Good and top guilds can do it easily. Those guilds will probably go there 2 timers and then everybody will be fully geared
  

Gear wise :

EV/KP -> One toon fully geared, EC/TFB -> 2nd, S&V -> almost a 3rd (complete with HM Golden Fury/SM Monolith), DP/DF -> 4th toon geared.

I know this breaks the historical SWTOR tiering but whatever if it's new it's new. Players who are playing for less than 2 years don't know half of this content anyway.

 

 

Hard tier, ilevel 216

This content is where the bulk of the PvE guilds will be

SM Ravager

SM Temple of Sacrifice

HM Dread Fortress

HM Dread Palace

NM Eternity Vault

NM Karagga's Palace

NM Explosive Conflict

NM Terror From Beyond

NM Scum and Villainy

 

• This can be partly done in pick up if everybody is fully geared in 210, but will be unlikely before month into the expansion.
  
• This is where average guilds do their progression.
  
• Good guilds can do it without too much problems as long as they come with a full 210 gear.
  
• Top guilds will advance here quickly, but it will depend on how farmed they are 210-wise.
  

As long as gear goes :

EV/KP -> One toon fully geared, EC/TFB -> same, S&V -> almost a 3rd (complete with HM Golden Fury/SM Monolith), DP/DF -> 4th toon geared, Ravager/ToS -> 5th toon geared.

 

 

Nightmare tier, ilevel 222

This content is for people who like/want a real challenge

HM Ravager

HM Temple of Sacrifice

NM Dread Fortress

NM Dread Palace

 

• Pick up can't go there
  
• Average guild will clean it after nerf (which means when 228 gear is out)
  
• This is where good guilds with 216 gear will do their progression
  
• This can be attempted and will be challengeing for top guilds without optimal gear
  

 

Gear wise :

Just as today -> DF/DP will give all the gear for one toon and Rav/ToS will give all the gear for a second one.

 

 

 

This would require to fine tune every single fight but their would no longer be any "thrash boss" like sparky. When you'd go to Ravager or ToS, every single boss would be hard. This way everybody would be able to do all the content, clear every operation while still having the game interesting for hardcore players.

Top guilds progression would be something like this:

1 lockout easy/middle tier

1 to 2 lockouts hard tier

1 to 2 lockouts nightmare tier

I'm talking about the top 5 to 10 guilds out there, which will do 6 or 7 nights of 4-5 hours of raiding.

 

Good guilds would do something like this:

2 lockouts middle tier

2 lockouts hard tier

2 to 4 lockouts to reach the final bosses of nightmare tier

2 to 4 lockouts to kill all the final bosses

 

Average guild would be around the end of the hard tier after 3 months, probably well into nightmare tier after 6 months.

Pick up would be able to go as far as hard tier after 6 months.

 

 

With a method like this I think everybody could be kept interested in the operations, and top guilds could feel like BW actually gives a damn about them.

After 6 months they could just add a "nightmare buff" to a random operation from the nightmare pool, making it even harder, that would give a title and one mount to keep things interesting for big guilds.

 

Anyway this, in my opinion, would not take thousand of hours of work, it mostly needs testing and adjusting numbers. BW could pick one or two guilds and give them a PTS access to help them fine tune it, this way it would not even cost a lot of money... :/

 

This isn't a bad idea, except I'd have more then 1 or 2 guilds testing. In the past it seemed they had some of the Top guilds as the only testers. I'd suggest a mix for this. 1-2 Top Guilds, 1-2 medium guilds so that they can do a better overall test for the majority of the player base. The 1-2 medium skill guilds wouldn't necessarily be able to clear everything but it would give a better idea of the lower end stuff for the casuals, who have issues in the current tier. ToS SM for example.