Hardcore players are bane of mmos in current stage

[FerkWork]

http://i.imgur.com/t4bcQqm.jpg

So what's next?

Blame me for showing tos instead of rav or what?

 

It's funny you do such content and then complain it's hard. HM is suppose to be hard. It has Hard in the name lol. Why can't we have different levels of difficulty. If content was just super easy and no other level of difficulty people will get bored. That's why BW has made 3 levels (maybe just 2 now if rumors are true) to cater to different groups.

 

But then again you flip flop between how pro you are and how pro people are evil. Lol are you the exception, the shining Knight to save the casuals? Lol that is more condescending to casuals than having 2 different modes of difficulty.

 

Either stop doing hard content or stop complaining. But then again this is just a troll post. I'm down responding. I encourage everyone to stop feeding this troll.

Edited August 14, 2015 by FerkWork

[Camelpockets]

Here's an alternative viewpoint:

 

Not every bit of content in an MMO has to appeal to every single player in it.

 

Some like crafting. Others don't. Some like PvP. Others don't. Some like group content. Others don't. Some like space PvP. Others don't. Some like datacron hunting. Others don't. etc. etc. etc.

 

What's wrong with an MMO having niche content that isn't consumed by the majority of players?

 

Khe....Khevar??!!

[shyroman]

http://i.imgur.com/t4bcQqm.jpg

So what's next?

Blame me for showing tos instead of rav or what?

 

Well, tos is significantly easier than ravagers for the first 4 bosses, torque is harder than any of the first 4 in tos. (should i also mention that i know people that can barely pull 3k dps in boss fights that are 8/10?)

[Slowpokeking]

Instead of jumping straight from sm to nim, practice on the current hms and thenthe jump to nim from sm won't be that bad.

 

You are correct about the low drop rates for tfb and snv nim, but I know plently of people that still wanted it and farmed those operations for months trying to get the mounts, if someone doesn't want the mount, then just don't do it and it's all good.

 

You keep referring to tfb hm as a hard point for players, but the reason why people are wiping has nothing to do with the damage/healing output needed, it's entirely mechanics based, or at least it should be, they wouldn't be able to beat the current sm if that was the case. It's perfectly possible for groups to wipe to vorgath in ec in any mode if people ignore mechanics (trying to walk through minefield), entirely because of mechanics. Same with kephess in nim (not interrupting droids at beginning). The mechanics should not change because of a level increase or because the op has been out for a while.

 

I don't think ec should be super hard, but i also don't think it should be the faceroll that it is now.

But it isn't worthy to many players. Sure some people still want it and work hard, but many more think it's not worthy for it thus it's much more difficult to form a pug for these groups. Why not make its difficulty match its drop to attract more players to do it? Isn't what MMO are suppose to do?

 

I think it doesn't matter it's DPS or mech, it shouldn't be that hard for a 3 years old ops. If some mech is annoying then it should be nerfed to avoid such awkward position it is on right now. Sure EC NIM has something to be noticed but it's still much easier to form group and go through it than TFB HM.

[Shwarzchild]

http://i.imgur.com/t4bcQqm.jpg

So what's next?

Blame me for showing tos instead of rav or what?

 

Nope. I now believe you're 8/10. And just like I said before, I still think your opinions are crazy talk. But, I do believe you are 8/10.

[shyroman]

But it isn't worthy to many players. Sure some people still want it and work hard, but many more think it's not worthy for it thus it's much more difficult to form a pug for these groups. Why not make its difficulty match its drop to attract more players to do it? Isn't what MMO are suppose to do?

 

I think it doesn't matter it's DPS or mech, it shouldn't be that hard for a 3 years old ops. If some mech is annoying then it should be nerfed to avoid such awkward position it is on right now. Sure EC NIM has something to be noticed but it's still much easier to form group and go through it than TFB HM.

 

If the rewards aren't worth it for players, then why would they try and form a pug group for it? They are increasing the rewards (as well as the difficulty) when they rescale the ops to make it more worth it because then the gear will be worth having as well as any other rewards that drop. I don't think that all content should be made to attract all players. For ops, i believe that sm should be for all players with at least some competency (wearing correct gear and has a rotation containing more than just basic attack. HM should be for most players that want a challenge, and nim should be for the highly skilled players looking to really test their abilities.

 

Since new ops won't have a nim, i think sm should stay the same as i said before and hm should scale up quickly like in ravagers. Sparky and bulo being standard hm difficulty to ease players in, torque to be a bit of a transition to nim difficulty (like the last boss of hm), m/b to be a mid boss of nim difficulty and the last boss to be like a last boss of nim.

 

Really what it comes down to is us having completely different design philosophies.

[Slowpokeking]

Isn't it ridiculous?

 

You need to spend so much effort and repair fee to practice to beat TFB or S&V NIM.

 

All you can get is some low drop rate mount plus the Hypergate decor, only from the final boss and you have to beat 7-15 people to get it, the hypergate is good but you can buy for 2-5m credits.

 

Sure some people would like to do it, but it's obviously not worthy in many others' eyes.

[shyroman]

Isn't it ridiculous?

 

You need to spend so much effort and repair fee to practice to beat TFB or S&V NIM.

 

All you can get is some low drop rate mount plus the Hypergate decor, only from the final boss and you have to beat 7-15 people to get it, the hypergate is good but you can buy for 2-5m credits.

 

Sure some people would like to do it, but it's obviously not worthy in many others' eyes.

 

I mean, i find it more ridiculous that people still have such trouble with these bosses. But i also think that mount drops from tfb/snv nim should be guaranteed like in df/dp. If people don't find it worth it, then I don't see why they would do it and then complain it's too hard. There's tons of things like that, in the real world and in games, if it's worth it then go for it, if it's not then don't.

[Slowpokeking]

If the rewards aren't worth it for players, then why would they try and form a pug group for it? They are increasing the rewards (as well as the difficulty) when they rescale the ops to make it more worth it because then the gear will be worth having as well as any other rewards that drop. I don't think that all content should be made to attract all players. For ops, i believe that sm should be for all players with at least some competency (wearing correct gear and has a rotation containing more than just basic attack. HM should be for most players that want a challenge, and nim should be for the highly skilled players looking to really test their abilities.

 

Pls remember that a few players would like to do it, doesn't mean the majority think it's worthy. If we let HM Rav and ToS only have such low rate mount/decor drop and garbage gears. Will people do it? Sure a few will, but more will pass on it, thus it won't be a successful PVE content.

 

It really depends on the time era. When did TFB HM come out? 3 bloody years and 2 1/2 years for NIM. What does it drop? Level 168-180 gears after RotHC. Should it provide difficulty? Sure, it should be when it came out and probably last for 6 months-a year. But what about after 2-3 years? Maybe it should still be difficult to level 55 players under <168 gear probably. But should it be hard for level 60 players with 190-198 gears? No, not at all. That's how a MMO works, every PVE "challenging" content should follow its timespan, it should be a challenge but it shouldn't always stay as a challenge. PVE hardecore players should keep getting new contents to challenge on, and these old ones should get easier and easier till a faceroll. So both sides would have more and more stuff to do.

 

I have never played many MMOs, but for the ones I've played, WOW+GW1&2, other than GW2 has a special setting on dungeon, the other 2 both follow such rule on content timespan. A 2-3 years old content shouldn't be much of a problem to players with high level gear and had basic knowledge of the mechanics. If some old content boss' mechanic is too hard regardless of player's level and damage, then it should be nerfed to match its reward.

 

Since new ops won't have a nim, i think sm should stay the same as i said before and hm should scale up quickly like in ravagers. Sparky and bulo being standard hm difficulty to ease players in, torque to be a bit of a transition to nim difficulty (like the last boss of hm), m/b to be a mid boss of nim difficulty and the last boss to be like a last boss of nim.

 

Really what it comes down to is us having completely different design philosophies.

I support challenging high end ops, don't get me wrong, but the old content should be easy because its era has long passed. The challenge should be passed to the new content.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

I mean, i find it more ridiculous that people still have such trouble with these bosses. But i also think that mount drops from tfb/snv nim should be guaranteed like in df/dp. If people don't find it worth it, then I don't see why they would do it and then complain it's too hard. There's tons of things like that, in the real world and in games, if it's worth it then go for it, if it's not then don't.

 

It's not like I've never used my brain during these fights, I read dulfy' guide and watched video for a few times. But the mechanic isn't that easy to handle without quite a few wipes. Especially OP IX and Brontes took a lot of wipes. And I see it's not me having the problem, many people either can't do it well or don't want to group with those without achievement. I don't think this should be the case with a 2-3 years old content.

 

Of course, why shouldn't they complain if they think a content's reward doesn't match the difficulty? Isn't it what players do?

[shyroman]

A 2-3 years old content shouldn't be much of a problem to players with high level gear and had basic knowledge of the mechanics.

 

You're right, with a basic knowledge of mechanics, it should be extremely easy, which it is if players had a basic knowledge of it. Lets go through the mechanics of tfb hm that could possibly prove difficulty and lets see how easy those mechanics are.

 

Writhing Horror: cleanse debuffs, which could be healed through without cleansing too. 1 person stand in a red circle and rotate players. That's really the only things and those aren't hard.

 

Dread Guards: Don't stand in green, not hard. If you get doom, walk into 3 green, not hard. Don't heal tank when they get force leech, not hard, and even if they can't do that, the damage dealt by kelsara is low enough that you don't need tanks to survive that, just burn her down and let people die.

 

Op 9: Kill little floating droids depending on color, not hard. When color deletion happens, have the person targeted and one person of the correct color run in the middle, not hard with a tiny bit of coordination.

 

Kephess: Cleanse nanites every once in a while because the damage can add up if left unattended after a while, not hard.

 

TFB: Kill tentacles at about the same time, not that hard with a bit of coordination. Have someone kill irregularities when they spawn, not hard.

 

What it comes down to is people not understanding the mechanics, which will make the operation unnecessarily hard.

[Slowpokeking]

You're right, with a basic knowledge of mechanics, it should be extremely easy, which it is if players had a basic knowledge of it. Lets go through the mechanics of tfb hm that could possibly prove difficulty and lets see how easy those mechanics are.

 

Op 9: Kill little floating droids depending on color, not hard. When color deletion happens, have the person targeted and one person of the correct color run in the middle, not hard with a tiny bit of coordination.

 

TFB: Kill tentacles at about the same time, not that hard with a bit of coordination. Have someone kill irregularities when they spawn, not hard.

 

What it comes down to is people not understanding the mechanics, which will make the operation unnecessarily hard.

 

It's not understanding, but people can't execute it well during the fights. Especially OP IX, you get 1 shot if you and your teammates don't react well in less than 5 secs, you have to do it 3-5 times at least and it was only half of the fight, in NiM you need to avoid step into the wrong circle. That is not easy for many players to do especially some of them might have lag. It is too much for a 3 years old content.

 

TFB NIM also provides difficulty due to some 1 shot mechanic, especially the slam gets quicker and quicker. It's easy to understand but not easy to perform that well in the fight. Sure for a challenging new ops it's the way it is, but we are talking about 2-3 years old ops.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[shyroman]

It's not understanding, but people can't execute it well during the fights. Especially OP IX, you get 1 shot if you and your teammates don't react well in less than 5 secs, you have to do it 3-5 times at least and it was only half of the fight, in NiM you need to avoid step into the wrong circle. That is not easy for many players to do especially some of them might have lag. It is too much for a 3 years old content.

 

TFB NIM also provides difficulty due to some 1 shot mechanic, especially the slam gets quicker and quicker. It's easy to understand but not easy to perform that well in the fight. Sure for a challenging new ops it's the way it is, but we are talking about 2-3 years old ops.

 

5 seconds is a very long time for a reaction time. Your character will only take 1-2 seconds to get to the middle depending on where you are standing, and 3 seconds to realize that a mechanic is happening when it even says so in big letters across your screen is a terribly long time. Not walking in a circle that isn't yours is possibly one of the easiest mechanics ever, it's even easier than running out of red. The only excuse i can find is from colorblind people that literally can't tell the difference between some of the colors. If there's too much lag and you can't see the colors, then don't run into a circle.

 

In TFB nim with slams getting quicker, the tentacles should be dying so fast that the slams should never get that fast to begin with.

[Khevar]

Khe....Khevar??!!

Hi!!!!!!! <3

Edited August 14, 2015 by Khevar

[onegoldpls]

Well, tos is significantly easier than ravagers for the first 4 bosses, torque is harder than any of the first 4 in tos. (should i also mention that i know people that can barely pull 3k dps in boss fights that are 8/10?)

 

http://i.imgur.com/siC0hLD.jpg

It completely depends on a role, i agree torque is hard only for dps classes because of terrible target switching system.

And it's not player's fault that he can accidently kill repair droid.

 

That's why I repeat again this game should completely abandon any hardmodes and focus on a story and group content for casuals and new players.

Edited August 14, 2015 by onegoldpls

[Slowpokeking]

5 seconds is a very long time for a reaction time. Your character will only take 1-2 seconds to get to the middle depending on where you are standing, and 3 seconds to realize that a mechanic is happening when it even says so in big letters across your screen is a terribly long time. Not walking in a circle that isn't yours is possibly one of the easiest mechanics ever, it's even easier than running out of red.

The only excuse i can find is from colorblind people that literally can't tell the difference between some of the colors. If there's too much lag and you can't see the colors, then don't run into a circle.

 

If you don't run into the circle you should have entered, the AOE will cause serious problem to the team. Do not use your standards(which is hardcore PVER) on others, a lot of other players, especially in pug group, can't figure it right for so many times, not just due to time but also the stress. You can't say "hi it's easy and u must not have problem" when the situation is not like that, when the player can't do it right without many wipes. It was easy to you and other veteran PVEers but not most of the pugs and some guilds.

 

In TFB nim with slams getting quicker, the tentacles should be dying so fast that the slams should never get that fast to begin with.

 

It's not the case, I even teamed with a mostly hardcore ops group and it got very quick due to some previous deaths.

 

Again, you are using the standards of hardore PVEers on the pugs and a lot of causal guilds rather than understand their difference.

[shyroman]

http://i.imgur.com/siC0hLD.jpg

It completely depends on a role, i agree torque is hard only for dps classes because of terrible target switching system.

And it's not player's fault that he can accidently kill repair droid.

 

That's why I repeat again this game should completely abandon any hardmodes and focus on a story and group content for casuals and new players.

 

Always the player's fault if the repair droid dies, if they hit it then it is their fault, if a fire device is in the way/shoots lasers kills it, then it's the player's fault. I love torque because there is no rng in that fight, it's only ever the player's fault if there's a wipe.

[shyroman]

If you don't run into the circle you should have entered, the AOE will cause serious problem to the team. Do not use your standards(which is hardcore PVER) on others, a lot of other players, especially in pug group, can't figure it right for so many times, not just due to time but also the stress. You can't say "hi it's easy and u must not have problem" when the situation is not like that, when the player can't do it right without many wipes. It was easy to you and other veteran PVEers but not most of the pugs and some guilds.

 

 

 

It's not the case, I even teamed with a mostly hardcore ops group and it got very quick due to some previous deaths.

 

Again, you are using the standards of hardore PVEers on the pugs and a lot of causal guilds rather than understand their difference.

 

My standards really aren't that high for something like tfb hm. There are 2 players to run into the circle, so even if one member can't see it, the other can do it, and in hm it's not a one shot so it is perfectly healable at current gear levels. You only ever have to worry about 1 mechanic at any given time so I don't see how there's much stress on the players.

 

They must not have been a very hardcore group then if they can't put out that much dps.

[Slowpokeking]

My standards really aren't that high for something like tfb hm. There are 2 players to run into the circle, so even if one member can't see it, the other can do it, and in hm it's not a one shot so it is perfectly healable at current gear levels. You only ever have to worry about 1 mechanic at any given time so I don't see how there's much stress on the players.

 

They must not have been a very hardcore group then if they can't put out that much dps.

 

The other might not be able to react when he saw the one didn't run in. The AOE is not 1 shot but is quite hard to heal up due to other mechanics going on, again you are using the standards of a veteran group with experience on most of the pugs.

 

They are, and it still happens. It's not "it shouldn't happen" but many of the players can't do that well and don't want to spend that much effort on a 2-3 years old ops. Nor do I think they should. I don't think the problem of such "ancient" content should be "how could a full group with high gear do it" rather than "can it be 5-6 manned?" or "finish it in 15 mins"

Edited August 14, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[onegoldpls]

Always the player's fault if the repair droid dies, if they hit it then it is their fault, if a fire device is in the way/shoots lasers kills it, then it's the player's fault. I love torque because there is no rng in that fight, it's only ever the player's fault if there's a wipe.

 

Oh year, if chain lightning hits boss - fire device - turret - repair droid, it's totally player's fault.

Edited August 14, 2015 by onegoldpls

[shyroman]

The other might not be able to react when he saw the one didn't run in. The AOE is not 1 shot but is quite hard to heal up due to other mechanics going on, again you are using the standards of a veteran group with experience on most of the pugs.

 

They are, and it still happens. It's not "it shouldn't happen" but many of the players can't do that well and don't want to spend that much effort on a 2-3 years old ops. Nor do I think they should.

 

Players should always go for both colors even if the other player went for it, I thought that was standard for even sm.

 

I don't know what to say here other than what i've already said, I don't think content should be so easy that players can just walk through it ignoring everything like the 50 ops if we're still only 5 levels above.

[shyroman]

Oh year, if chain lightning hits boss - fire device - turret - repair droid, it's totally player's fault.

 

Don't use chain lightning in that scenario then, you can delay chain lightning until the droid finishes repairing the console without losing dps most of the time. You can also just use CL on a turret on the opposite side of the droid. It's all about player awareness.

[Slowpokeking]

Players should always go for both colors even if the other player went for it, I thought that was standard for even sm.

 

I don't know what to say here other than what i've already said, I don't think content should be so easy that players can just walk through it ignoring everything like the 50 ops if we're still only 5 levels above.

 

But NIM requires you to only step in your color, which means you can't run circles.

 

Again it depends on what are we talking about, if we were talking about new ops like Rav, ToS or the Monloith, then sure it should be a real challenge to players. But for a 2-3 years old content that has lower or even much lower tier gear drop than easy story quests(Ziost), it should be very easy. EC NIM also have some mechanic like don't kill Firebrand first, minefield and the droids in Kephess stage. But ppl with basic knowledge can handle it well, TFB HM/NIM and other level 55 ops are not the case.

 

Sure it's just 5 level but it has been 2-3 years since the content has come out, which has long passed its era. And even the gears we could get from short story quests/dailies are much higher tier than its drop. It shouldn't be much of a problem for most of the pugs with a full group, no.

[shyroman]

But NIM requires you to only step in your color, which means you can't run circles.

 

Again it depends on what are we talking about, if we were talking about new ops like Rav, ToS or the Monloith, then sure it should be a real challenge to players. But for a 2-3 years old content that has lower or even much lower tier gear drop than easy story quests(Ziost), it should be very easy. EC NIM also have some mechanic like don't kill Firebrand first, minefield and the droids in Kephess stage. But ppl with basic knowledge can handle it well, TFB HM/NIM and other level 55 ops are not the case.

 

Sure it's just 5 level but it has been 2-3 years since the content has come out, which has long passed its era. And even the gears we could get from short story quests/dailies are much higher tier than its drop. It shouldn't be much of a problem for most of the pugs with a full group, no.

 

Sorry, i worded that wrong, i meant to say both circles of the same color.

 

The droids for kephess requires a much quicker reaction than anything in tfb, it's a 1 sec cast iirc, so a much shorter time to react, if you can react to that then you should be able to react in op 9, the only difference is that it is less forgiving in op 9. It also comes down to this, would you rather the developers in charge of operations spending their time retuning old ops and changing those mechanics or working on new ones, I don't know a single person would rather have the former (maybe you're the first). They are doing the former for the expansion and a lot of people are upset about how they are going about it.

[Slowpokeking]

Sorry, i worded that wrong, i meant to say both circles of the same color.

 

The droids for kephess requires a much quicker reaction than anything in tfb, it's a 1 sec cast iirc, so a much shorter time to react, if you can react to that then you should be able to react in op 9, the only difference is that it is less forgiving in op 9. It also comes down to this, would you rather the developers in charge of operations spending their time retuning old ops and changing those mechanics or working on new ones, I don't know a single person would rather have the former (maybe you're the first). They are doing the former for the expansion and a lot of people are upset about how they are going about it.

 

Many people did fail to interrupt. But it's not one shot and it doesn't require you to move or figure out the color, you just need to watch it on, ready to click for it when the channel pop up. Even if one of them reached full stacks it's not a big deal. Op IX is different, it's an AOE 1 shot kill, and the deletion protocol isn't the only mechanic going on at the same time. Thus it made the encounter much more difficult to handle than Kephess' droids.

 

That's what PVE content designers do, Blizzard also nerf their old contents when new ones came out and further nerf some of them later if it causes too much trouble to pugs. Bioware did the opposite thing, they nerfed the classes' ability and DPS in 55 when 3.0 came out. I personally think the re-scale thing was very dumb other than add HM mode for some of the FP.