Hardcore players are bane of mmos in current stage

[onegoldpls]

Pics or it didn't happen as my grandpappy used to say

 

Even if I printscreen my achivements, you will say that I inspected someone's achives, because i'm not going to show my character. So it's pointless.

Edited August 14, 2015 by onegoldpls

[JouerTue]

there should be a kind of built in add on, to measure dps/hps and dtps, keeping track of your encounter average and best results. then on the weekly there should be a red/yellow/green number based on your results and the OP difficulty.

 

like

 

xplayer:

avg dps: 3k

best: 4k

 

Tos SM 2.6k in green

Tos HM 3.5k in yellow

 

obviously it shouldn't be public or at least should be a choice to have it public, i think it could help since it would give casuals some more precise objectives to improve themselves. people reach endgame without any kind of challenge and if they are not involved with a guild or out of game guides it's hard they can make an idea about how they cannot have all those shiny things or op gear..

 

also there's no way hc gamers can hurt a videogame, it's the others that must understand at what they can aim and what they can reach..

for example i will never have more than 10-20 millions credits, or ranked rewards, i won't clear a nim op before the buff expires but i can have a full set of hm gear in a reasonable amount of time..i won't be top anything in clears but i'll be at the same progress sooner or later.. people must know their limits and space of improvemetns, afte that, they can come here and whine all they want..

[Elracor]

What the reason to have it besides "every mmo has it"? If the game had some serious competetive challenge with thousands of viewers on twicth, I would agree. Otherwise it's just pointless. Hardcore gaming era is over. But mmos are still made by the same old pattern. People want easy stuff and that's the reason why moba/fps games surpass mmos these days.

 

The amount of viewers on Twitch is ultimately meaningless except the obvious PR that comes with it. There are extremely popular streamers who have viewers who follow the streamer and not the games. Streamers like LIRIK could play the worst game ever and still pull in more concurrent viewers than SWTOR has ever had. I just doubt we'll see LIRIK play SWTOR anytime soon unless he gets paid for it:

 

As for hardcore gaming that is solely down to the SWTOR developers. This game is simply not as well engineered as their competitors.

 

The combat doesn't have the flow other games have.

Competitive PvP is meaningless when the good players are spread out on 17 different servers.

The game engine is lacking when it comes to actual MMO gaming, a Viewer Raid like many streamers do in WoW simply wouldn't be as smooth as it is in WoW and even the biggest overclocked computer can still be brought to its knees in some SWTOR 16 man fights.

Edited August 14, 2015 by MFollin

[onegoldpls]

The amount of viewers on Twitch is ultimately meaningless except the obvious PR that comes with it. There are extremely popular streamers who have viewers who follow the streamer and not the games. Streamers like LIRIK could play the worst game ever and still pull in more concurrent viewers than SWTOR has ever had. I just doubt we'll see LIRIK play SWTOR anytime soon unless he gets paid for it:

 

As for hardcore gaming that is solely down to the SWTOR developers. This game is simply not as well engineered as their competitors.

 

The combat doesn't have the flow other games have.

Competitive PvP is meaningless when the good players are spread out on 17 different servers.

The game engine is lacking when it comes to actual MMO gaming, a Viewer Raid like many streamers do in WoW simply wouldn't be as smooth as it is in WoW and even the biggest overclocked computer can still be brought to its knees in some SWTOR 16 man fights.

 

I completely agree with you about engine. But it just proves again that especially this game has no place for hardcore content.

 

Number of twitch viewers directly shows the popularity of the game if you ignore some streamers that have 5-20k viewers every time and play some random game.

Edited August 14, 2015 by onegoldpls

[Methoxa]

Current hardmodes are equal or somewhere much harder than any old nims by far

 

Sorry but only 1 fight is harder than most fights of old nm and that would be Revan HM. All other bosses including Cora and MB are easier than Brontes or Dread council pre NM buff removal. Bosses like Sparky, Bulo, Torque, Malaphar, Sword Squad and Underlurker are far easier than old nm bosses.

[FerkWork]

Even if I printscreen my achivements, you will say that I inspected someone's achives, because i'm not going to show my character. So it's pointless.

 

Lol I expected that. Can't show you cause you won't believe me.

Edited August 14, 2015 by FerkWork

[onegoldpls]

Sorry but only 1 fight is harder than most fights of old nm and that would be Revan HM. All other bosses including Cora and MB are easier than Brontes or Dread council pre NM buff removal. Bosses like Sparky, Bulo, Torque, Malaphar, Sword Squad and Underlurker are far easier than old nm bosses.

 

Dashroode, olok, operations chief, withering horror, nefra, tyrans, raptus nightmares were very hard, of course. I'm not even talking how hard ev/kp nightmares were. And yes, I'm talking about actual content and not about doing them on lvl 60.

Edited August 14, 2015 by onegoldpls

[gabigool]

What the reason to have it besides "every mmo has it"? If the game had some serious competetive challenge with thousands of viewers on twicth, I would agree. Otherwise it's just pointless. Hardcore gaming era is over. But mmos are still made by the same old pattern. People want easy stuff and that's the reason why moba/fps games surpass mmos these days.

 

Correction - some people want easy stuff. Some people don't. Adding NM content a few months after SM/HM seemed to be a relatively low-effort solution for this. People like you could get shiny purple coms gear you thought was good to do your dailies without needing to understand mechanics and those of us that enjoyed actually playing MMO-type content had something to do.

 

Hardcore gamers didn't have any negative affect on this game, BW's lack of commitment to development resources (or their mismanagement of said resources) had a negative impact on this game. And by most financial metrics, they're still doing ok. I really think they pay more attention to revenue than twitch counts.

 

Personally I never saw anything about this game that was categorically hard-core or attempting to cater to that crowd. There was simply an inclusion of challenging content, that I'm not really sure had a negative impact on anyone, as it wasn't forced content.

 

So I'm not really sure what you're saying and I'm inclined to assume you're trolling. Its not like golf courses go bankrupt because the gold tees are too hard when most people are perfectly fine playing from the blues or whites.

 

You really aren't making sense and your list of "hard" NM encounters pretty much shows you never did any of them at level. You actually listed Nefra.

[Slowpokeking]

Correction - some people want easy stuff. Some people don't. Adding NM content a few months after SM/HM seemed to be a relatively low-effort solution for this. People like you could get shiny purple coms gear you thought was good to do your dailies without needing to understand mechanics and those of us that enjoyed actually playing MMO-type content had something to do.

 

Hardcore gamers didn't have any negative affect on this game, BW's lack of commitment to development resources (or their mismanagement of said resources) had a negative impact on this game. And by most financial metrics, they're still doing ok. I really think they pay more attention to revenue than twitch counts.

 

Personally I never saw anything about this game that was categorically hard-core or attempting to cater to that crowd. There was simply an inclusion of challenging content, that I'm not really sure had a negative impact on anyone, as it wasn't forced content.

 

So I'm not really sure what you're saying and I'm inclined to assume you're trolling. Its not like golf courses go bankrupt because the gold tees are too hard when most people are perfectly fine playing from the blues or whites.

 

You really aren't making sense and your list of "hard" NM encounters pretty much shows you never did any of them at level. You actually listed Nefra.

 

I think the problem is:

 

PVE content should keep update rather than rely on some really old content to keep the challenge. TFB HM came out bloody 3 years ago, it should have been a faceroll to pugs based on MMO timespan, rather than still being hard to them and some guilds.

[onegoldpls]

Correction - some people want easy stuff. Some people don't. Adding NM content a few months after SM/HM seemed to be a relatively low-effort solution for this. People like you could get shiny purple coms gear you thought was good to do your dailies without needing to understand mechanics and those of us that enjoyed actually playing MMO-type content had something to do.

 

Hardcore gamers didn't have any negative affect on this game, BW's lack of commitment to development resources (or their mismanagement of said resources) had a negative impact on this game. And by most financial metrics, they're still doing ok. I really think they pay more attention to revenue than twitch counts.

 

Personally I never saw anything about this game that was categorically hard-core or attempting to cater to that crowd. There was simply an inclusion of challenging content, that I'm not really sure had a negative impact on anyone, as it wasn't forced content.

 

So I'm not really sure what you're saying and I'm inclined to assume you're trolling. Its not like golf courses go bankrupt because the gold tees are too hard when most people are perfectly fine playing from the blues or whites.

 

You really aren't making sense and your list of "hard" NM encounters pretty much shows you never did any of them at level. You actually listed Nefra.

 

Nefra was pugged just like bulo now. If you missed that, it's not my problem.

 

And comparing golf to swtor or any mmo is really stupid. Golf is a golf, your just need need a stick and a ball to play it, while mmo requires tons of resourses to keep it. And if it's not doing average or well, it's doomed.

Edited August 14, 2015 by onegoldpls

[Slowpokeking]

What should be hard? Fresh new ops which came out within a year.

 

Not some 2--3 years old content, players aren't complaining about some ops being hard, but such old ones, which drop most garbage even compare to easy story quest, are still hard to pugs and some guilds.

[shyroman]

Nefra was pugged just like bulo now. If you missed that, it's not my problem.

 

And comparing golf to swtor or any mmo is really stupid. Golf is a golf, your just need need a stick and a ball to play it, while mmo requires tons of resourses to keep it. And if it's not doing average or well, it's doomed.

 

You said that Nefra was very hard, yet now you're saying that people were pugging it. If you're going to argue, don't post contradicting posts. And if you think that a golf course doesn't take a ton of work to stay well maintained, then you are very mistaken. Golf courses likely take just as much effort to keep it running as mmos, it's just in different areas, golf courses need to be maintained while mmos need new content.

[onegoldpls]

You said that Nefra was very hard, yet now you're saying that people were pugging it. If you're going to argue, don't post contradicting posts. And if you think that a golf course doesn't take a ton of work to stay well maintained, then you are very mistaken. Golf courses likely take just as much effort to keep it running as mmos, it's just in different areas, golf courses need to be maintained while mmos need new content.

 

The list was sarcastic because someone thinks old nims were harder than current hms. I just listed easiest bosses.

Mmo requers special technicians and programmers to hold servers, website, ingame support, community mannagement and other stuff. I'm pretty sure it's much harder to keep than golf courses. And it still pointless to compare, because some golf courses are closing just like mmos.

Edited August 14, 2015 by onegoldpls

[Shwarzchild]

The list was sarcastic because someone thinks old nims were harder than current hms. I just listed easiest bosses.

Mmo requers special technicians and programmers to hold servers, website, ingame support, community mannagement and other stuff. I'm pretty sure it's much harder to keep than golf courses. And it still pointless to compare, because some golf courses are closing just like mmos.

 

You are my favorite forum poster ever. I feel like you should have your own Youtube channel. I'd watch it for the laughs.

 

I mean honestly, old nim content at level was hard. It still is hard mechanically which is why not every guild out there has their wings. Current hardmodes...you think Sparky and Malaphar are harder than Nefra was in nim? Bulo and Sword Squad aren't that hard either when you compare it to like Draxus or Grobby. If we're talking "at level" the old content in nightmare stacks up right with this hard mode content. Isn't that the reason why this new content is referred to as Hardmare?

 

Also...you should post a screen shot of you being 8/10. I firmly do not believe you, but if you did post a screen shot I'd believe you. I still would think your opinions are outlandish, but I would believe you.

[Slowpokeking]

You are my favorite forum poster ever. I feel like you should have your own Youtube channel. I'd watch it for the laughs.

 

I mean honestly, old nim content at level was hard. It still is hard mechanically which is why not every guild out there has their wings. Current hardmodes...you think Sparky and Malaphar are harder than Nefra was in nim? Bulo and Sword Squad aren't that hard either when you compare it to like Draxus or Grobby. If we're talking "at level" the old content in nightmare stacks up right with this hard mode content. Isn't that the reason why this new content is referred to as Hardmare?

 

Also...you should post a screen shot of you being 8/10. I firmly do not believe you, but if you did post a screen shot I'd believe you. I still would think your opinions are outlandish, but I would believe you.

The problem is that

 

Yeah those old NIM became easier after SoR, but they are still hard to pugs and quite a few guilds and unlike the era of 2.0, they drop crap gear now, so the difficulty doesn't really match with the reward. Even quite a few level 55 HM bosses are pug killers and require a guild to spend time to down, such as Op IX and Brontes.

 

Honestly, these contents have come out for years, the story arc of Dread Masters was over for a long while. They shouldn't be the "challenge" right now, the new ops should be. Sure they once were the challenge for hardcore PVEers but that era was over, it's like saying Black Wing Lair should still be a challenge to level 80 full group after WotLK had come out.

[FerkWork]

The problem is that

 

Yeah those old NIM became easier after SoR, but they are still hard to pugs and quite a few guilds and unlike the era of 2.0, they drop crap gear now, so the difficulty doesn't really match with the reward. Even quite a few level 55 HM bosses are pug killers and require a guild to spend time to down, such as Op IX and Brontes.

 

Honestly, these contents have come out for years, the story arc of Dread Masters was over for a long while. They shouldn't be the "challenge" right now, the new ops should be. Sure they once were the challenge for hardcore PVEers but that era was over, it's like saying Black Wing Lair should still be a challenge to level 80 full group after WotLK had come out.

 

The reason they were a challenge is due to the fact that KP/EV were far easier compared to these at level. Look at EC it was hardly pugged by randoms at 55 and was usually avoided. Yes I know you want the chievios and other vanities for beating it. Either get a group that isn't brain dead or pay for a run.

Edited August 14, 2015 by FerkWork

[Markark]

As soon as I read his post, I knew to expect the inflamed responses he got, however, his post has merit.

 

I see it all the time, guilds that start out big with an inclusive approach that appeals to a larger % of players and attracts membership, gains momentum, then over time, a smaller concentration of experienced players form a core that gradually spends less time on older material and more time in HM/NiM ...they transition to "raiding guilds".

 

At this point, newer members are given less attention, they move on or stop playing.

 

Bioware needs to incorporate a reward system that encourages/challenges experienced players to work with newer players, it's just that simple, there comes a point where older players lose their steam, then, players that can't seek their help lose theirs as well.

[Slowpokeking]

The reason they were a challenge is due to the fact that KP/EV were far easier compared to these at level. Look at EC it was hardly pugged by randoms at 55 and was usually avoided. Yes I know you want the chievios and other vanities for beating it. Either get a group that isn't brain dead or pay for a run.

 

Nah, I can say that it doesn't match with the reward.

 

The thing is that pug groups don't want to wipe on it, they ask you for achievement otherwise they don't invite you. Even other pugs aren't willing to wipe 2-3 times. That's mostly due to the reward not being good enough, especially TFB, SNV and DF HM don't drop any special decor(compare to SM) or mount.

[Slowpokeking]

I never complain about Rav, ToS or the Monolith, why? Because they are the top ops and came out less than a year. These ops should be challenging and they drop top tier gear.

 

I respect hardcore players and think they should have their fun, but it should be on these new ops rather than the 2-3 years old ones. Those should have been faceroll now, even if we don't bring up WOW. I play GW1, the Elite Mission Domain of Anguish, which doesn't allow you to wipe at all, could mostly be run by player+heroes 2-3years after it came out and was pretty much faceroll to a full group. That's how a MMO should go. New content comes out and carry new challenge to keep the hardcore players. The old ones become easier and easier till a faceroll fun for the rest.

 

Right now the situation in SWTOR is quite weird, the PVE guild had run those ops to death, and a lot of the players can't find a reason to spend much effort to do it, which is why the sales could go that high.

[shyroman]

Nah, I can say that it doesn't match with the reward.

 

The thing is that pug groups don't want to wipe on it, they ask you for achievement otherwise they don't invite you. Even other pugs aren't willing to wipe 2-3 times. That's mostly due to the reward not being good enough, especially TFB, SNV and DF HM don't drop any special decor(compare to SM) or mount.

 

I agree with hm not giving any reward now, but at least on nim there are mounts that are some of the coolest in the game. The wings are easily the best mount in the game (sounds like a good enough reward to me), and i don't think something like that should be easy. If a player wants it badly enough then they can acquire the skill and find a group to do it, and it's not always quick and easy to do. It took me 6 months after df nim came out and i wanted the mount for me to finally defeat the boss, and not for another 6 months after that before i finally acquired my first set of wings.

 

DF nim has only been out for a little over a year btw, so nowhere close to the 2-3 years that you said that content should be easy.

Edited August 14, 2015 by shyroman

[Kyovarde]

The problem is that

 

Yeah those old NIM became easier after SoR, but they are still hard to pugs and quite a few guilds and unlike the era of 2.0, they drop crap gear now, so the difficulty doesn't really match with the reward. Even quite a few level 55 HM bosses are pug killers and require a guild to spend time to down, such as Op IX and Brontes.

 

Honestly, these contents have come out for years, the story arc of Dread Masters was over for a long while. They shouldn't be the "challenge" right now, the new ops should be. Sure they once were the challenge for hardcore PVEers but that era was over, it's like saying Black Wing Lair should still be a challenge to level 80 full group after WotLK had come out.

 

Obviously you never played WoW.

 

Dread Fortress/Palace is only one expansion removed from SoR. Naxxramas 40 wasn't easy during TBC. Twin Emperors weren't a cakewalk for most PuGs until Cataclysm (3 expansions after!). Same with Sunwell. It wasn't easy during Wrath even. Even during Cata you could still wipe on Felmyst...

[Slowpokeking]

I agree with hm not giving any reward now, but at least on nim there are mounts that are some of the coolest in the game. The wings are easily the best mount in the game (sounds like a good enough reward to me), and i don't think something like that should be easy. If a player wants it badly enough then they can acquire the skill and find a group to do it, and it's not always quick and easy to do. It took me 6 months after df nim came out and i wanted the mount for me to finally defeat the boss, and not for another 6 months after that before i finally acquired my first set of wings.

 

But it's hard to jump from SM to NIM for these players if HM already require us to spend some effort, especially on certain bosses.

 

DF is just one of them. TFB and SnV NIM don't even drop the mount 100%(chances are quite low some ppl keep farm it) if I remember correctly. You already need to beat 7 ppl to win one, if the chance is so low and you don't get useful gear other than that, it's quite poor reward compare to the effort you have to spend.

 

It really depend on which era are we on. Sure it should be challenging when it came out and for quite a while, but after 1-2 or even 3 years(TFB HM), when the Dread Master storyarc was over for years? I don't think so. The challenge should rely on new ops like Rav, Tos and Monolith, not these old ones. They should have become funny faceroll to most of the players.

 

EC have such rich decor/mount drops compare to other ops, 2 types of tank decor, a massive ant-aircraft decor, bloddline mount in HM, tank and shark mount in NIM plus the speeder quest. Should EC be very very hard? I don't think so.

[onegoldpls]

Also...you should post a screen shot of you being 8/10.

 

http://i.imgur.com/t4bcQqm.jpg

So what's next?

Blame me for showing tos instead of rav or what?

[Slowpokeking]

Obviously you never played WoW.

 

Dread Fortress/Palace is only one expansion removed from SoR. Naxxramas 40 wasn't easy during TBC. Twin Emperors weren't a cakewalk for most PuGs until Cataclysm (3 expansions after!). Same with Sunwell. It wasn't easy during Wrath even. Even during Cata you could still wipe on Felmyst...

 

Not one xpc, it came in the middle of RotHC and now we are in the end of SoR.

 

No, Sunwell became easier even after the filler patch before WotLK. Are you kidding? Twin Emperors could be soloed by some classes in Cataclysm. We are talking about a full 25-40 group with top gears.

[shyroman]

But it's hard to jump from SM to NIM for these players if HM already require us to spend some effort, especially on certain bosses.

 

DF is just one of them. TFB and SnV NIM don't even drop the mount 100%(chances are quite low some ppl keep farm it) if I remember correctly. You already need to beat 7 ppl to win one, if the chance is so low and you don't get useful gear other than that, it's quite poor reward compare to the effort you have to spend.

 

It really depend on which era are we on. Sure it should be challenging when it came out and for quite a while, but after 1-2 or even 3 years(TFB HM), when the Dread Master storyarc was over for years? I don't think so. The challenge should rely on new ops like Rav, Tos and Monolith, not these old ones. They should have become funny faceroll to most of the players.

 

EC have such rich decor/mount drops compare to other ops, 2 types of tank decor, a massive ant-aircraft decor, bloddline mount in HM, tank and shark mount in NIM plus the speeder quest. Should EC be very very hard? I don't think so.

 

Instead of jumping straight from sm to nim, practice on the current hms and thenthe jump to nim from sm won't be that bad.

 

You are correct about the low drop rates for tfb and snv nim, but I know plently of people that still wanted it and farmed those operations for months trying to get the mounts, if someone doesn't want the mount, then just don't do it and it's all good.

 

You keep referring to tfb hm as a hard point for players, but the reason why people are wiping has nothing to do with the damage/healing output needed, it's entirely mechanics based, or at least it should be, they wouldn't be able to beat the current sm if that was the case. It's perfectly possible for groups to wipe to vorgath in ec in any mode if people ignore mechanics (trying to walk through minefield), entirely because of mechanics. Same with kephess in nim (not interrupting droids at beginning). The mechanics should not change because of a level increase or because the op has been out for a while.

 

I don't think ec should be super hard, but i also don't think it should be the faceroll that it is now.