Why did sorc healers need a buff again?

[Zoom_VI]

Crinn needs a buff.

[Master-Nala]

Crinn needs a buff.

 

On the subject, why the heck does Pulse Cannon need to exist in this spec? Really shouldn't Explosive Surge be what spreads DoTs?

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Vindicate returns a net of 6.5% of resources for the use of a GCD. Med Shot nets 7.5% at best regen for the use of GCD and provides a tiny heal and a stack of supercharge. Diagnostic Scan nets the same as Med Shot over a GCD, but lasts longer than a GCD so allows a bit more regen. It also provides a miniscule amount of healing.

 

Why do you believe that Vindicate is so unfair? Sorcerers and Sages naturally regenerate the slowest although they have a very deep resource pool. Vindicate allows the same tradeoff that all other classes have. The ability to use an basic attack or heal to regen some resource.

 

Sorcs have nonlinear resource regeneration. Consumption will always give back the same ratio of resource regen.

 

Operatives and Mercenaries have a tipping scale for resource regen. You comment about "at best" when the fact is, if a Sorc has 0 force and uses consumption, they will gain the same amount of force as if they had a full bar.

 

If an Op or Merc runs out of energy/has full heat, it takes longer to get back to full resource pool than if they weren't out of energy/full heat. This means that the value of Kolto Shot and diagnostic scan is worse if the player is out of resources.

 

This means that for optimal resource management, a merc can only use up to 40 heat at a time and an op can only use up to 30 energy at time. A Sorc has no such limitations to their resource pool and can heal JUST as effectively if they are at 200 force as if they were at 500 force.

[Master-Nala]

Operatives and Mercenaries have a tipping scale for resource regen. You comment about "at best" when the fact is, if a Sorc has 0 force and uses consumption, they will gain the same amount of force as if they had a full bar.

 

Yes, that's true regarding Commandos and Scoundrels which is why I said at best. But at worst Med Shot will allow the regen of 3% of resources, or 4.5% at the mid tier.

 

As to Vindicate, if used successively gives less total regen because of the debuff to regeneration. That depreciation of regen means that Vindicate doesn't always return the same level of regen.

 

If an Op or Merc runs out of energy/has full heat, it takes longer to get back to full resource pool than if they weren't out of energy/full heat. This means that the value of Kolto Shot and diagnostic scan is worse if the player is out of resources.

 

Also true, but both Commandos and Scoundrels have a "fill up half the bar" move which deals with situations like that and will quickly get them closer to optimal regen. If the player has that on cooldown and has run out of resources then they are doing nothing to manage their resources and aren't really relevant to the discussion.

 

And when you say it takes longer, it doesn't take longer unless the Sage spams Vindicate till full. Natural regen for the Sage is worse than the worst regen of Commandos and Scoundrels. They bottom out at 2% regen. Sages naturally regen 1.33% of resource each second. Vindicate allows them to speed that up at the cost of their natural regen and GCDs.

 

This means that for optimal resource management, a merc can only use up to 40 heat at a time and an op can only use up to 30 energy at time. A Sorc has no such limitations to their resource pool and can heal JUST as effectively if they are at 200 force as if they were at 500 force.

 

No, as noted above, they have an out when they need a burst window of resources. And Sages have no such out. They are limited solely to Vindicate.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Master-Nala

[kissingaiur]

Yes, that's true regarding Commandos and Scoundrels which is why I said at best. But at worst Med Shot will allow the regen of 3% of resources, or 4.5% at the mid tier.

 

As to Vindicate, if used successively gives less total regen because of the debuff to regeneration. That depreciation of regen means that Vindicate doesn't always return the same level of regen.

 

 

 

Also true, but both Commandos and Scoundrels have a "fill up half the bar" move which deals with situations like that and will quickly get them closer to optimal regen. If the player has that on cooldown and has run out of resources then they are doing nothing to manage their resources and aren't really relevant to the discussion.

 

And when you say it takes longer, it doesn't take longer unless the Sage spams Vindicate till full. Natural regen for the Sage is worse than the worst regen of Commandos and Scoundrels. They bottom out at 2% regen. Sages naturally regen 1.33% of resource each second. Vindicate allows them to speed that up at the cost of their natural regen and GCDs.

 

 

 

No, as noted above, they have an out when they need a burst window of resources. And Sages have no such out. They are limited solely to Vindicate.

 

(Sigh) This whole argument is irreverent to my point i was trying to make anyways. My final note is that Sorcs at low force will always win over operatives at low energy because of their effective healing.

[MiaowZedong]

And when you say it takes longer, it doesn't take longer unless the Sage spams Vindicate till full. Natural regen for the Sage is worse than the worst regen of Commandos and Scoundrels. They bottom out at 2% regen. Sages naturally regen 1.33% of resource each second. Vindicate allows them to speed that up at the cost of their natural regen and GCDs.

.

The more relevant comparison is that one use of Vindicate with Resplendence gives enough Force to cast 2-3 heals, whereas even in the best case Kolto Shots doesn't give you the up front heat needed to cast any heals whatsoever, and won't cover the net heat of any heals besides Emergency Scan and Kolto Shells (which are both very cheap, like Force Armour is for the Sage).

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Yes, that's true regarding Commandos and Scoundrels which is why I said at best. But at worst Med Shot will allow the regen of 3% of resources, or 4.5% at the mid tier.

 

As to Vindicate, if used successively gives less total regen because of the debuff to regeneration. That depreciation of regen means that Vindicate doesn't always return the same level of regen.

 

 

 

Also true, but both Commandos and Scoundrels have a "fill up half the bar" move which deals with situations like that and will quickly get them closer to optimal regen. If the player has that on cooldown and has run out of resources then they are doing nothing to manage their resources and aren't really relevant to the discussion.

 

And when you say it takes longer, it doesn't take longer unless the Sage spams Vindicate till full. Natural regen for the Sage is worse than the worst regen of Commandos and Scoundrels. They bottom out at 2% regen. Sages naturally regen 1.33% of resource each second. Vindicate allows them to speed that up at the cost of their natural regen and GCDs.

 

 

 

No, as noted above, they have an out when they need a burst window of resources. And Sages have no such out. They are limited solely to Vindicate.

 

The argument was that in a vacuum sorcs have the best and easiest resource management. We are comparing consumption to its direct counterparts, Kolto shot and diagnostic scan. Adrenaline probe and vent heat have nothing to do with the discussion as it's based on comparing 3 abilities that perform the same function.

 

The bottom line is, in a direct comparison of energy/resource management, consumption will always be better than diagnostic scan and Kolto shot at all levels of force whereas Kolto shot and diagnostic scan are only optimal above 70% resource bar, anything less and their inherent value becomes lower and lower.

 

By the sound of your argument, you sound biased, so I'm going to assume you are a Sorc main. I'm speaking purely objectively as someone who actively plays all three healers at a progression level of raiding but not in PvP, and as a progression raider I can tell you objectively that Sorc has the easiest energy management. After Sorc would be operative since they can recover from having 0 energy, assuming adrenaline probe is down, using diagnostic scan which recovers passive energy while also giving a net gain of energy on use. Last is merc which is the most punishing at max heat since kolto shot doesn't actually reduce heat, it's simply a free ability, leaving you to suffer the full penalty of reduced heat dissipation until your heat naturally falls below 40.

 

Let's be honest here, it's okay that Sorc has the easiest management, but don't try to make it seem like it's worse than it actually is.

 

Sorcs perform the exact same at best AND at worst, the same is not true for the other healers.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Lalainnia]

Everyone should stop being so bad and roll medic/bodyguard healers cause they're the best obv.

 

Sorcs didn't need any buff what so ever if bioware implemented the vindicate changes without overbuffing their heals it would have fixed the issue that was currently the main prob before 3.3 lack of energy management.

 

As for operatives the longest running op gods of any spec in the game they did get a small nerf but it was all towards hots nanotech kolto probes and kolto infusion all saw hps drops on the ticks in return they got a buffed kolto infusion on the intial heal and a buff on kolto injection by around 2k. also saw a buff to medical therapy which boost periodic healing by 5% now up from 3% and they saw a buff to tactical medicine which is now 5% up from 3% which makes it even more important to use at least 1 TA every 6 seconds to maximize healing. Overall though operatives saw a small nerf on hot ticks around 200 per tick on each hot.

 

Tbh though who cares they've been the undisputed best healer for pve and pvp content for far to long, and the funny thing is if sorcs didn't get the mega buff to healing they still would be for pvp at least.

 

The big thing that prob irks people at least myself is that sage healing at it's core is very easy to play and get out onto friendlies, when you have a spec that's very easy to play with the highest consistent burst and great sustain with amazing cds ontop of escapes you run into issues....o wait this sounds very similar to what operatives were like its just that with 3.0 your average player wouldn't be able to play an operative to it's full potential and bioware made sure that there would be some level of skill to factor in when they implemented 3.0 operative changes. Now with sorcs it's simply far to easy without much if not any effort while getting insane results.

 

Spec is to easy.

 

REROLL MERC HEALORZ

[Master-Nala]

The argument was that in a vacuum sorcs have the best and easiest resource management. We are comparing consumption to its direct counterparts, Kolto shot and diagnostic scan. Adrenaline probe and vent heat have nothing to do with the discussion as it's based on comparing 3 abilities that perform the same function.

 

Then is that really discussing "resource management" as Cool Heat and Recharge Cells are resource management tools?

 

The bottom line is, in a direct comparison of energy/resource management, consumption will always be better than diagnostic scan and Kolto shot at all levels of force whereas Kolto shot and diagnostic scan are only optimal above 70% resource bar, anything less and their inherent value becomes lower and lower.

 

Which I agreed with. But I just noted that with the other tools that there are other options available to Commandos and Scoundrels. Which I gather you don't disagree with, just that you didn't want to mention because it didn't support your thesis.

 

By the sound of your argument, you sound biased, so I'm going to assume you are a Sorc main. I'm speaking purely objectively as someone who actively plays all three healers at a progression level of raiding but not in PvP, and as a progression raider I can tell you objectively that Sorc has the easiest energy management.

 

If you look at my post, I didn't posit an argument, I simply posted facts and took no position on which is "easiest". As for being biased, I don't main a Sorc healer, my first and main healer is a Commando healer. I don't do progression raiding, but frankly I don't find resource management to be particularly problematic in PvP (Since you know, we're on the PvP forums.)

 

Let's be honest here, it's okay that Sorc has the easiest management, but don't try to make it seem like it's worse than it actually is.

 

Sorcs perform the exact same at best AND at worst, the same is not true for the other healers.

 

See, as I said, I never took a position as to which is easiest. I was posting facts, you are posting your opinions. I don't begrudge you those opinions if you honestly came to them. But you presented only those facts which put your argument in the best light. So I decided to post the rest. People can make whatever conclusion they want from that.

 

For example, Vindicate depreciates active regen which makes its return at successive uses lower. Now, of course, there are ways to remove that depreciation, but that means it take management of resources, it isn't automatic.

 

So feel free to use 'easy' as a descriptor if that's what you really think. I'm just posting information, why does this upset you?

[madtycoon]

The new regen system is stupid. At least in solo ranked. Most the time sorc healer can just tap with no stacks. It's usually better to tap with no stacks, because instant revification is more important than that slight regen loss in pvp and tapping before innervate compared to after is usually preferable when burst healing. No real penalty for tapping with no stacks is beyond dumb. At least before there was a penalty, though resource management prior to this change was a complete joke.

 

Having the tap on global makes it just feel a lot slower. The globals are already incredibly slow in this game (even stacking alacrity). We should want more things off global. All they did by adding these changes was buff the healers who only use globals healing and tapping. Meanwhile globals spent on healer utility got nerfed by association and healers who are good at multi-tasking CC, assist dps, cleansing, peeling and everything else that isn't just staring at health bars (everything that should separate the great from the mediocre) got completely shafted.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Why do you believe that Vindicate is so unfair? Sorcerers and Sages naturally regenerate the slowest although they have a very deep resource pool. Vindicate allows the same tradeoff that all other classes have. The ability to use an basic attack or heal to regen some resource.

 

This quote is why I responded with ONLY comparing the three similiar skills, your quote asked why consumption was unfair compared to Kolto Shot and Diagnostic scan. This quote lead me to believe that we were discussing management in a vaccuum scenario only using these three skills. This is why I didn't reference the other skills, Vent Heat and Adreneline probe. It was not to put my argument into a "better" light, simply discussing the topic question you asked.

 

However if you wish, I could account for all management skills, including Redplendance stacks, adrenaline probe and vent heat if you wish.

[Master-Nala]

However if you wish, I could account for all management skills, including Redplendance stacks, adrenaline probe and vent heat if you wish.

 

No need. That you acknowledge it isn't as simple of a question as comparing Vindicate to Med Shot/Diagnostic is enough for me.

[Loomi]

Maybe sorcs/sages fit the new story best and they want us all to migrate that way. To fight the twins and their father, you need to be a Starkiller version of emperor Palpatine.

 

Starkiller was more of a Marauder/Assassin. He most definitely was not a Sorc.

[Technohic]

Starkiller was more of a Marauder/Assassin. He most definitely was not a Sorc.

 

I know. I meant a version of Palpatine with similarly taking those powers over the top like Starkiller did for you general jedi warrior type.

[jcromb]

Sorc healers right now are broken. I went into solo ranked on my fresh exhumed Sorc which I never Pvped before and pulled 4k HPS just smashing buttons. I have a better rating on my Sorc which now I played with in solo ranked for 4 days now then my operative healer which I have had over a year of solo ranked experience with. GG BIOWARE WELL PLAYED.

 

They literally over buffed Sorc who were doing perfectly fine last patch and made them rediclous, while continuing to nerf operative healers and making them unplayable in ranked Pvp.

 

I'm finding the same results with my sage/sorc healers. I've mainly mained a commando and merc healer for the last year and just leveled a sage and sorc with the 12x. Now in full 168 pvp gear and I'm easily 600-1000 hps more than I can attain on my mando/merc. TBH I am not even all that familiar with the sage/sorc heals and what procs what but I can pump out the heals in warzones. Having 2 lives with bubble makes me question why even play the other healers right now?

 

I didn't really have a problem with SM OPs at all on any of the healers but maybe sage/sorc's were buffed for HM OPs? Maybe someone who runs HM Rav and ToS can comment? How was sage/sorc healing in HM?

[Transcendent]

Obviously they are misreading the flipping metrics.

 

I don't think they are misreading the metrics, I think they are asking the wrong questions [to the developer] that provides those metrics.

 

This is where I think they're intrinsically going wrong, they have the right metrics, but are asking the wrong questions. Which leads to a state of balance that ultimately will end up with one or two classes being viable for end-game PvP.

 

I'd love to know what question they asked to come up with these changes, and who did the "internal testing", and which developers ignored the feedback from the players that did the QA in a rush to sign things off.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Transcendent

[AlrikFassbauer]

I know. I meant a version of Palpatine with similarly taking those powers over the top like Starkiller did for you general jedi warrior type.

 

Palpatine once actually duelled Yoda in the very last Clone Wars season - via Lightsabres ! And he *could* duel !

 

The only other occation he showed his "non-sorc" fighting skills was in ROTS. The seconds BEFORE he battled Mace Windu.

 

I don't think they are misreading the metrics, I think they are asking the wrong questions [to the developer] that provides those metrics.

 

This is where I think they're intrinsically going wrong, they have the right metrics, but are asking the wrong questions. Which leads to a state of balance that ultimately will end up with one or two classes being viable for end-game PvP.

 

I'd love to know what question they asked to come up with these changes, and who did the "internal testing", and which developers ignored the feedback from the players that did the QA in a rush to sign things off.

 

I'm not sure over that. Remember Dragon Age 2 ? To the community, it indeed looked as if they were drawing the WRONG conclusions on the data collected from Dragon Age 1 ! Lots of facepalming in RPG communities ! (At least in the one I'm in.)

Edited August 3, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[TUXs]

I don't think they are misreading the metrics, I think they are asking the wrong questions [to the developer] that provides those metrics.

 

This is where I think they're intrinsically going wrong, they have the right metrics, but are asking the wrong questions. Which leads to a state of balance that ultimately will end up with one or two classes being viable for end-game PvP.

 

I'd love to know what question they asked to come up with these changes, and who did the "internal testing", and which developers ignored the feedback from the players that did the QA in a rush to sign things off.

TBH, I doubt they even ask questions these days. The balance is far off that I think they look at averages and that's it. Nothing deep, nothing meaningful, they don't dig, they don't try to uncover issues...they use averages...nothing more.

[Savej]

TBH, I doubt they even ask questions these days. The balance is far off that I think they look at averages and that's it. Nothing deep, nothing meaningful, they don't dig, they don't try to uncover issues...they use averages...nothing more.

 

But, looking at averages, some classes are doing much better than others, so...

[AchillesStark]

There has to be somekind of stance requirement for sorcs so that their dps spec cant off-heal at such ridiculous amounts. Just like tank+dps advanced classes have tank stance which debuffs damage but buffs defense vs dps stance which buffs damage. Sorcs need a heal stance vs dps stance. Sorc dps usually top the damage chart with 1500+ dps while also pulling 400+ hps. Thats rather ridiculous.

 

Just look at the leaderboard for ranked arena. Its almost entirely sorcs/sages plus a couple powertechs and sins.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

There has to be somekind of stance requirement for sorcs so that their dps spec cant off-heal at such ridiculous amounts. Just like tank+dps advanced classes have tank stance which debuffs damage but buffs defense vs dps stance which buffs damage. Sorcs need a heal stance vs dps stance. Sorc dps usually top the damage chart with 1500+ dps while also pulling 400+ hps. Thats rather ridiculous.

 

Just look at the leaderboard for ranked arena. Its almost entirely sorcs/sages plus a couple powertechs and sins.

 

a coup,e of sins ? yeah lol, on tofn in every arena at least 4-5 shadows/sin

[Master-Nala]

There has to be somekind of stance requirement for sorcs so that their dps spec cant off-heal at such ridiculous amounts. Just like tank+dps advanced classes have tank stance which debuffs damage but buffs defense vs dps stance which buffs damage. Sorcs need a heal stance vs dps stance. Sorc dps usually top the damage chart with 1500+ dps while also pulling 400+ hps. Thats rather ridiculous.

 

Just look at the leaderboard for ranked arena. Its almost entirely sorcs/sages plus a couple powertechs and sins.

 

Can you be more specific? What specifically would this stance do? What powers would it affect? And why do you think your proposed solution would deal with Sorcerer heal numbers which are mostly self-healing.

[Transcendent]

There has to be somekind of stance requirement for sorcs so that their dps spec cant off-heal at such ridiculous amounts. Just like tank+dps advanced classes have tank stance which debuffs damage but buffs defense vs dps stance which buffs damage. Sorcs need a heal stance vs dps stance. Sorc dps usually top the damage chart with 1500+ dps while also pulling 400+ hps. Thats rather ridiculous.

 

The trouble is, if you have something similar to [for example] Mercs / Mando Cylinders, it does nothing to alter off-heals.

 

The disciplines already grant some abilities depending on DPS / Heal specs, so it wouldn't remove any abilities that are already there now. I'd be loathed for Sorc / Sage to all of a sudden get a 3% buff to damage and heals, or a 3% buff to alacrity and armour penetration (or something similar) etc etc.

 

Adding some form of stance will only result in them being buffed, you know this would be the case if you stop and think about how the recent changes have been carefully thought out for the class ()

[Anishor]

TBH, I doubt they even ask questions these days. The balance is far off that I think they look at averages and that's it. Nothing deep, nothing meaningful, they don't dig, they don't try to uncover issues...they use averages...nothing more.

 

that's because they use a data warehouse imo. There are much better ways to analyze big data problems, it's much harder to encode a priori and a posteriori knowledge into a 3rd normal form data warehouse, for example the ability to see that in if you are a sorc, PT, or assassin it's much more normal to place in T1 given historical data.

 

and I'm a semantics (relationships and patterns) guy, I can't imagine what a few of the stat/fusion guys at work would do =D

[AchillesStark]

The dps stance buff wouldnt be to increase their damage output. It would be exactly like stance buffs for the JK/SW. The abilities base damage would be reduced but then buffed up to the normal, i.e. current output only if you are in the right stance just like how it is now for other classes.

 

Same with healing. Baseline healing is reduced for those abilities that are available to all sorcs but buffed up to the normal output if you are in a healing stance.