Solo Players punished with Operations?

[Xedry]

HEY GUYS< RAIDERS/PVPERS AINT ****< YOU ARENT FOUNDERS LIKE US COOL SOLO PLAYERS HEUHEUEHEUHEUHEUEHEUEHUEHEUHE ALSO< YOU DONT SUBSRKIBE LIKE US< WE SHOULD GET THE SAME STUFFS AS YOU WITHOUT ANY OF THE EFFORT.

 

 

yeah...thats how you are coming across.

 

also, yes a majority of players are "solo players". but they are usually f2p, who dont make it past lvl 20 before they quit the game.

 

Yeah I'm Solo I started at launch and I'm a Subscriber.... can I see your statistics that majority solo's are F2P? I'll wait while you look that up and show proof

Edited August 28, 2015 by Xedry

[Xedry]

Im sorry the only thing you demonstrate is neurotic behavior.

 

How am I neurotic? explain

[Xedry]

Right now is a very narrow window of opportunity when all but 2 Operations are neither hard to find a group for, nor hard to do. I fully understand your reluctance to try something new, but you are locking yourself out more and more by repeating 'hard'. If you truly want to see the content, it is right now open to a new player like never before and it won't be again after October 27.

 

As for Forged Alliances, each of those Flashpoints have about 4 to 6 times more cutscene time than the ops, and actually drop a better loot than the flashpoints in the HM in terms of adaptable gear.

 

The problem isn't how hard a group is to find it's the fact that I do not want to group, I don't even want the "gear" so to speak I okay with getting empty gear

[CaraExas]

Yeah I'm Solo I started at launch and I'm a Subscriber.... can I see your statistics that majority solo's are F2P? I'll wait while you look that up and show proof

 

this was as of late 2014:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/14/6001503/star-wars-the-old-republic-2014-players-ea-bioware

 

"Since it was induced in November, we've added more than 1.7 million new players on the free model to the service," Gibeau said at the time. "And the number of subscriptions has stabilized at just under half a million."

 

thats just the player base in general. and it has been shrinking since then.

[Xedry]

this was as of late 2014:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/14/6001503/star-wars-the-old-republic-2014-players-ea-bioware

 

"Since it was induced in November, we've added more than 1.7 million new players on the free model to the service," Gibeau said at the time. "And the number of subscriptions has stabilized at just under half a million."

 

thats just the player base in general. and it has been shrinking since then.

 

Interesting read, also interesting is that it doesn't say anything about weather the F2P or Subscribers are SOLO players or Group players.... So Am I still here waiting for proof? or was that your "proof" that solo players are all F2P or Majority of F2P?

[Khevar]

Interesting read, also interesting is that it doesn't say anything about weather the F2P or Subscribers are SOLO players or Group players.... So Am I still here waiting for proof? or was that your "proof" that solo players are all F2P or Majority of F2P?

Proof is a nebulous thing when it comes to statistics found on the internet. Unless one is working for the company and has access to raw data, all anyone can do is read something someone else put online. Is that going to be "proof" enough? Do you trust the website you found the "proof" on?

 

The article referenced does talk about 1.7 million new free-to-play accounts created, and 2 million new accounts total. If that is to be taken as face value, it would seem to indicate that (at the time those numbers were referenced), that only 300,000 new subscribers were added. That's only 15% subs vs 85% F2P.

 

Of course, this is only logical. Free is easier the paying for a subscription. Why wouldn't there be more F2P.

 

As far as F2P being solo vs group heavy? Is it such a stretch to believe that F2P would be more interested in solo than group? Just think of all the restrictions that a F2P (or even a Preferred) has.

 

Honestly, it sounds like you asking for "proof" because you believe that the majority of solo players are subscribers whereas the F2P crowd mostly runs flashpoints and operations. Do you believe that?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Khevar

[Xedry]

Proof is a nebulous thing when it comes to statistics found on the internet. Unless one is working for the company and has access to raw data, all anyone can do is read something someone else put online. Is that going to be "proof" enough? Do you trust the website you found the "proof" on?

 

The article referenced does talk about 1.7 million new free-to-play accounts created, and 2 million new accounts total. If that is to be taken as face value, it would seem to indicate that (at the time those numbers were referenced), that only 300,000 new subscribers were added. That's only 15% subs vs 85% F2P.

 

Of course, this is only logical. Free is easier the paying for a subscription. Why wouldn't there be more F2P.

 

As far as F2P being solo vs group heavy? Is it such a stretch to believe that F2P would be more interested in solo than group? Just think of all the restrictions that a F2P (or even a Preferred) has.

 

Honestly, it sounds like you asking for "proof" because you believe that the majority of solo players are subscribers whereas the F2P crowd mostly runs flashpoints and operations. Do you believe that?

 

What I believe is that no one can prove one way or the other without BW or EA saying so, However I know there have been a few people on here who are Pro-OPS (as in Pro-choice, not Professional) that say they have are going to use there OPS free to play using the Cartel market items that allow them to do so. What that says to me is that F2P regardless of what is easier, can be either solo or group players. why is having the option to do everything solo or in group such a sin to everyone?

[DomiSotto]

A week of playing Ops as a preferred will cost you anywhere between 350 and 500 thousand credits at a going rate for a pass on the Harbinger each week. As a preferred player your cap is 350 thousand credits. To have access to over 350 thousand you need to pay for escrow.

 

While you can put aside a few passes and pay for million other things, like authorization to wear artifact gear and escrows, eventually playing Ops as a preferred becomes unsustainable.

 

As an F2P you will not even level to 60, because you have to pay for your expansion to get level 60, which will put you on preferred.

 

So, if a player remains an F2P, it is very unlikely s/he'd ever participate in Operations.

 

For your other question, the reality is that it is not available Solo. It is absolutely available as extremely easy group content, and the only thing that prevents you from doing it as many time as you want to is you. Not BioWARE, not other players, just you.

Edited August 31, 2015 by DomiSotto

[Khevar]

Why is having the option to do everything solo or in group such a sin to everyone?

It's not a sin for everything to be soloable It's just more work for the developers.

 

Let me flip that around. Why is it such a sin for there to be a few things that require a group?

 

Particularly in an MMO where the vast majority of content in the game is either expressly designed for solo work, or can be solo'ed with a bit of extra work.

[Xedry]

A week of playing Ops as a preferred will cost you anywhere between 350 and 500 thousand credits at a going rate for a pass on the Harbinger each week. As a preferred player your cap is 350 thousand credits. To have access to over 350 thousand you need to pay for escrow.

 

While you can put aside a few passes and pay for million other things, like authorization to wear artifact gear and escrows, eventually playing Ops as a preferred becomes unsustainable.

 

As an F2P you will not even level to 60, because you have to pay for your expansion to get level 60, which will put you on preferred.

 

So, if a player remains an F2P, it is very unlikely s/he'd ever participate in Operations.

 

For your other question, the reality is that it is not available Solo. It is absolutely available as extremely easy group content, and the only thing that prevents you from doing it as many time as you want to is you. Not BioWARE, not other players, just you.

 

Can I ask why BioWare is working so hard to give people solo modes for stuff that was originally group content if it such a bad thing to not group in the first place?

[gabigool]

Proof is a nebulous thing when it comes to statistics found on the internet. Unless one is working for the company and has access to raw data, all anyone can do is read something someone else put online. Is that going to be "proof" enough? Do you trust the website you found the "proof" on?

 

Unfortunately I think the people with access to the raw data don't even have all the facts. I recall a few weeks (months?) ago there was an interview with the guy responsible for analyzing metrics and some of the things he said seemed off.

 

As an example he pointed out that many characters are leveled to cap and then abandoned. From this, he surmised those characters were leveled to experience the story and abandoned due to lack of story. For me, that isn't the case at all. I leveled up all of the characters to cap and tried them out and only enjoy doing endgame content on a couple of them. The ones that I love, I leveled up again so I could do more endgame on them. The ones I didn't enjoy see no playtime. I only enjoy operations content, however I'm grouped into the "must only like story" pile due to limitations on their analysis.

 

I can't help but wonder at the uptick in threads such as this in advance of KotFE.

[Xedry]

It's not a sin for everything to be soloable It's just more work for the developers.

 

Let me flip that around. Why is it such a sin for there to be a few things that require a group?

 

Particularly in an MMO where the vast majority of content in the game is either expressly designed for solo work, or can be solo'ed with a bit of extra work.

 

It's not a sin and I have never stated as such, nor have I ever stated that there should be no group content quite the opposite, I've even stated that they should give group content first, and then add a solo mode for us solo players so that you group players get your content first. I feel that is fair since it should take solo players longer to get to that point since they are stopping to soak in the story.

[Khevar]

It's not a sin and I have never stated as such, nor have I ever stated that there should be no group content

I think I was unclear.

 

Why is it so terrible for there to be some content that can ONLY be completed by a group?

quite the opposite, I've even stated that they should give group content first, and then add a solo mode for us solo players so that you group players get your content first. I feel that is fair since it should take solo players longer to get to that point since they are stopping to soak in the story.

I think it's mainly a matter of workload, and time the developers can spend on such things.

 

Let's say that Bioware's roadmap included a number of new up-and-coming operations (which at present, it doesn't). If they also had time to make solo versions of the older operations? Sure, I don't really care.

 

But as it stands, all of their budget is going into new solo content. The new 9 chapters. The content thats coming after that. And someday, on the horizon, there may be budget for more group content. But it certainly isn't a priority.

 

I would argue, if the people who work on ops had time to rework them to become solo-friendly, wouldn't it be more fair that their time be devoted to making NEW operations? Particularly in light of the fact (sorry to be a broken record) of how much development has gone into the solo-ability of most everything else in the game?

Edited August 31, 2015 by Khevar

[Xedry]

I think I was unclear.

 

Why is it so terrible for there to be some content that can ONLY be completed by a group?

 

 

As selfish as this sounds, it ruins the game for me and people like me, as broken record as it sounds I will also sound like a broken record, for many of us this is our only answer to KOTOR 3 we didn't want or ask for a MMO but we were basically forced it on us to continue our KOTOR experience. I'm a firm believer in no part of a game should be locked out to anyone. everyone who argue this is an MMO so there fore there must be content that HAS to be group is not a great argument, cause an MMO does not mean that you have to group it just means that there are many people who play online, but Dev time will always be hurt by what ever they are working on. If its not OPS then it will be PVP they are working on if its not those it will be GSF if its not that it will be something else... It comes in cycles it will always be cycles. But if they forget one group they risk that group I have never stated they shouldn't do group content just that it shouldn't be a mandatory "if you want the story/content Group or GTHO (Get the heck out since it will censor)" that will just send many people away.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Xedry

[Xedry]

The one thing I will say is that the scaling everything to 65 is at best a Double Edged sword, it will make group content viable no matter how old it gets, but on the other hand it doesn't really help either parties all that well, Groupers will always find a group to run, and Solo people won't run it at all, and I agree PUG is not really the ideal way to go so at best this is only really helpful for those who PUG

[Xedry]

One thing I find very interesting from those who Argue with me is that, If we had the best of both worlds It's horribly bad! But if things stay as they were where there was a lot of people who don't run the content and leave that's okay! I don't see it as okay. If we all get what we want Bioware gets to keep more Subscribers, if we continue to limit content to only group you loose possible subscribers, and if you don't do group content at all you lose subscribers... which would you rather do?

[Khevar]

As selfish as this sounds, it ruins the game for me and people like me, as broken record as it sounds I will also sound like a broken record, for many of us this is our only answer to KOTOR 3 we didn't want or ask for a MMO but we were basically forced it on us to continue our KOTOR experience.

I see where you're coming from. I really do.

 

I doubt it will help to say this, but I was exactly such a person. I had no previous interest in MMOs. Tried GW1 for a couple of hours, never logged in again. Funny thing is, the complaints about TOR being "too" solo oriented are actually what made me decide to give it a try. I figured I'd try a few (or all) of the class stories, and then quit.

 

Had it happened this way, I would have been gone a looooooong time ago.

 

Instead, I found myself at level 50 (then max level) and saw all this group content, HM flashpoints and operations, which I wasn't doing. Now, I came into this game knowing that this content existed, and had no intention of doing it, and I was okay with that. But the lure was still there. Eventually, I ended up giving it a try.

 

I ended up liking it. Quite a bit actually.

 

Of course, not everyone will feel this way. But I believe that there are more people like me. Those who came for KOTOR 3, and the lure of what one might get with the endgame group content got them to give it a try.

 

Now, there are people that ONLY do solo and will ONLY do solo and will NEVER do group content. But there are also people that are on the fence. If absolutely everything could be solo'ed, they'd never try it. And people might lose out on an experience they might enjoy if given a chance.

 

Notwithstanding the fact that for the people that DO like group content? We cannot run it without others. The more people that run it, the more opportunities we have to enjoy that part of the game.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Khevar

[Xedry]

I see where you're coming from. I really do.

 

I doubt it will help to say this, but I was exactly such a person. I had no previous interest in MMOs. Tried GW1 for a couple of hours, never logged in again. Funny thing is, the complaints about TOR being "too" solo oriented are actually what made me decide to give it a try. I figured I'd try a few (or all) of the class stories, and then quit.

 

Had it happened this way, I would have been gone a looooooong time ago.

 

Instead, I found myself at level 50 (then max level) and saw all this group content, HM flashpoints and operations, which I wasn't doing. Now, I came into this game knowing that this content existed, and had no intention of doing it, and I was okay with that. But the lure was still there. Eventually, I ended up giving it a try.

 

I ended up liking it. Quite a bit actually.

 

Of course, not everyone will feel this way. But I believe that there are more people like me. Those who came for KOTOR 3, and the lure of what one might get with the endgame group content got them to give it a try.

 

Of course, there are people that ONLY do solo and will ONLY do solo and will NEVER do group content. But there are also people that are on the fence. If absolutely everything could be solo'ed, they'd never try it. And people might lose out on an experience they might enjoy if given a change.

 

Notwithstanding the fact that for the people that DO like group content? We cannot run it without others. The more people that run it, the more opportunities we have to enjoy that part of the game.

 

I Know what you mean, I did the exact same thing, the only difference is I did not care for the group content at all, and I agree I encourage others to try it! Just cause I don't like it doesn't mean others won't! But just cause there is a Solo mode doesn't mean people won't try group. I have done almost every Flashpoint I can but always over leveled and solo, after I found out I don't care for grouping. But making story and things behind the OPS wall will cause some people to leave but having the option to do both won't kill Group content I can Promise that with certainty cause if you like to group you will find others like wise

[Khevar]

IBut making story and things behind the OPS wall will cause some people to leave ...

Are you saying it would cause people to leave out of protest or something?

[Xedry]

Are you saying it would cause people to leave out of protest or something?

 

Not necessarily out of protest but if I can't continue my characters story, I'm not going to continue to play, and since I can't replay my specific story without re rolling I'd take my subscription money elsewhere... not out of protest but because there would be nothing for me here.

[Khevar]

Not necessarily out of protest but if I can't continue my characters story, I'm not going to continue to play, and since I can't replay my specific story without re rolling I'd take my subscription money elsewhere... not out of protest but because there would be nothing for me here.

And the minimal story that exists in the operations would keep you here? After you had exhausted the other solo content??

 

I find that very hard to believe. Any one planet in SWTOR holds 10 times the story as can be found in an operation. Let's break down a typical op:

 

1. Many high level elite / champion mobs in multiple groups. Some skippable, some not.

2. Boss fight, with a heavy emphasis on mechanics (for the most part, anyway)

3. More elite / champions

4. Another boss fight.

5. More elite / champions

6. Another boss fight.

7. More elite / champions

8. Puzzle boss, requiring multiple players to coordinate x, y, z

9. more elite / champions.

10. Final boss, with extra mechanics.

 

What would this look like as a solo activity?

 

a. Change the mobs to standard / weak / strongs.

b. Change the bosses to elites

c. Remove the mechanics.

 

Shoot, that sounds like a typical planetary questine -- with less story to boot.

 

The actual "content" in the operation are the boss fights themselves, with their mechanics that require a group of people to execute in coordination. Or the surprisingly hard trash mobs that require everyone to pay attention (hello KP Murder Droids!)

 

It's certainly not the little bit of dialog in the cutscenes (mostly muscle flexing).

 

I cannot see how "giving operations a solo mode" would keep a solo player, who was already tired of class stories, to stick around and keep playing for very long.

 

Unless, of course, these "solo mode operations" dropped end-game loot. Is that what you're suggesting?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Khevar

[CaraExas]

Not necessarily out of protest but if I can't continue my characters story, I'm not going to continue to play, and since I can't replay my specific story without re rolling I'd take my subscription money elsewhere... not out of protest but because there would be nothing for me here.

 

HOLY ****, YOU GET THE NEW BW BUSINESS MODEL, NOT TO *********** RETAIN PLAYERS!!!!!

 

what you just said, "If i cant continue my characters story(which BTW, Ops and FPs, sans the SoR ones, are not your characters story. They are the groups story), I'm not going to continue to play"

 

Newsflash. They don't care.

 

Every move they have made with 4.0 is to set up a revolving door of players.

 

Besides, when you find a purely single player MMO, that brings you all of the a-social happiness, let us all know.

 

Until then, feel free to wallow in the fact that you got suckered into the wrong medium of video game story telling.

[Monumenta]

Not necessarily out of protest but if I can't continue my characters story, I'm not going to continue to play, and since I can't replay my specific story without re rolling I'd take my subscription money elsewhere... not out of protest but because there would be nothing for me here.

 

I think you should check out the ops on the youtubes, not as a substitute for your own solo story but to show yourself how truly little story content is contained in them. On the average a cut scene just shows your character walk up to an encounter with a strange random group of others or the boss say something like 'haha, you will go no further' that is pretty much it, not much story at all.

[Xedry]

I Told you all that I have actually played OPS I have seen what "little" story content is there, true it is less than most stuff in this game... But there is actually story there and its enough to continue the story along to the next stage. Yes it is sustainable. You have to understand that None of you are seeing it from my point of view you don't know what passes and what doesn't pass in my eyes, We are all individuals. Honestly I'm getting to the point where I wish they just force it all group play, so you all could see what would happen to this game if they follow that mark. Again giving the option to do everything Solo or everything in group would not hurt the game it would make it more accessible.

[Khevar]

But there is actually story there and its enough to continue the story along to the next stage. Yes it is sustainable.

If you wouldn't mind, could you explain to me what is sustainable about it?

 

Would you be running the operations (as a solo player) over and over?

 

If so, what would drive you to repeat them?

If not, how does this become sustainable?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Khevar