Why the hate for players who do not know how to play?

[Darturion]

it took almost 500 pulls for the best guild in a world to kill final boss of the expansion on hardest difficulty. according to MMO champion, so far they are the only ones to have done so.

 

they haven't gotten easier (though they HAVE gotten more gimmicky). they just acquired more difficulties, players have gotten to know most if not all Blizzard's tricks and designing encounters with addons in mind is a PITA (how do you make content challenging enough so that all the various addons don't make it too easy for the hardcore, all the while keeping it manageable for the casuals? and people wonder why I'm so against addons in SWTOR)

 

WoW is a weird beast right now. it tries to be everything for everyone and Blizzard always understood that casual friendly games tend to bring in more money as they have larger target audience. but they are still trying to keep some challenge in.... it just seems like their current designers are asian MMO fans or something, becasue majority of the challenge outside of mythic raids seems to consist of grinding on top of more grinding. and I do mean ACTUAL grinding, not what SWTOR players call grinding.

 

as for Eve - its spreadsheets in space. corporate pvp and all

 

The VAST majority of the player base raid using the LFR tool which is no where near "hard".

[Darturion]

Sound like they have kicked it up a notch. When I left it was no where near 500 pulls to down a boss of the top tier raid groups. What is Mythic mode?

 

They have stratified the raiding system to accommodate the lay casual gamers and the hard core raiding guilds.

 

LFR (easy)

NM

HM

Mythic ? I don't recall this option.

[Darturion]

The breadcrumb to your advanced trainer is still there. You aren't prompted to see him anymore but the quest giver is still there.

 

The interfleet transport is noted by the green arrows when you pick up the flashpoint quests to the various instances. I did say that nobody clicks on the little triangles anymore but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

If they are subbed (and as a fellow costumer I'm happy if they are), the 12xp makes people bypass those breadcrumbs.

[Darturion]

Remember this video?

 

Some of them are in 172s with 162 (yes, Black Market) implants/earpieces. Only one has set bonus (174). Only one has augments. And yes, that's two most difficult FPs currently in the game.

 

Don't use logic and facts... egos must be fed.

[Derfburger]

The ultimate answer to the OP is epeen.

 

Some people forget this is a game and it is supposed to be fun. Basically they treat it like a job. This group of people can be testy with newbs even up to the point of kicking them from the party, but generally don't humiliate people.

 

But the majority of people who are downright mean to the new folks they are playing with (to the point of trying to humiliate them) are a simple case of epeen. The like to act this way because they are behind and keyboard and know if they acted that way while physically around other people they would probably get their nose pushed in. In other words they enjoy the sense of perceived power when in reality they have none.

[Majestic_Jazz]

This is why I like how Bioware is focusing more on story/solo play. I hated how previously in Flashpoints where players would kick me because I wanted to view the cutscenes and not spacebar through anything. Or how the group would jump down my throat and kick me [the tank] because I made a mistake.

[Heat-Wave]

Remember this video?

 

Some of them are in 172s with 162 (yes, Black Market) implants/earpieces. Only one has set bonus (174). Only one has augments. And yes, that's two most difficult FPs currently in the game.

 

Yep, but those people are the exception, not the rule...

 

I already said there are exceptions, but unless you're running with people you know, that would be a waste of time if it showed up in a PUG via GF...

[Heat-Wave]

You spent the money and time.

 

Not everyone has that kind of time.

 

That's fine, then don't play HM content... it requires a commitment of some time to be prepared for it...

 

There are 55 HM FP and tacticals you can play to your hearts content...

[Heat-Wave]

Hard Modes I think one (even casual gamers) should expect some requirements but then... if you can queue for it supposedly the Devs say you're geared for it. This is my main point about it all. The Developers are telling everyone it can be done with this base line gear level.

 

GF doesn't have a gear gate, you can queue for a 60 HM FP while wearing nothing at all...

 

Even if it was set to require an average of 178 gear (which is what it shows as required), a lot of people still can't pull it off that way. Some can, but the average player needs more than the minimum.

 

And lets be honest, all HM 60 FP say 178, but they are so unbalanced as to make that almost meaningless. Korriban is easy, Blood Hunt is not, they aren't really the same thing.

[Kingsbount]

Being "new" player in 55+ game content is not very good start, ya know...

It's very frustrating to meet Operative, who doesn't know that he have stealth CC.

Or sorcerer/merc who doesn't know what to do when tank ask'em for CC.

 

I can uderstand some things maybe new on 15+ levels but 55+ is beyond forgiveness.

Its a border that separates NEWBEES from NOOBS.

 

And for me, every person that speed-leveled to 60 and then jumps into HM content and have no idea how to play his character, is a noob.

[Rabin_Lorac]

Yes its a game. Yes its suppose to be fun. Yes it is just recreation. But why play a game that you do not want to win at. The point of playing is to win not lose. Losing is not fun. Playing for 1-2 hours and not accomplishing anything is not a good use of your time.

 

That being said you have to be patient and understanding. You do not know who is on the other side of the character, the real player, is a real person. Talk to them, explain, be nice. Take a few wipes explaining what is going on and what is happening. Constructive criticism and and clear instructions and explain how gear and rotations work. This game never tells you what to gear and how to use skills. Thank the devs for at least putting in the skill proc animation on the skill bar.

 

However, some people just do not listen, cannot read English, or do not care. If you did everything above and the player is still not improving/contributing then you have to kick them. Que up and hope for the best.

 

What really makes me mad though in this whole thing is that you will be grouped with 2 others and they are probably not just dps only class and when you ask them can they respec they say no or they cannot because they do not have the gear. That is when I say to myself ***, L2P and politely tell them they they need to learn the other side of their class. Not as a primary role but at least in times like these. I mean really come on either we wait forever or do not get a replacement tank/healer and just quit because you are 60 or even 10 and do not know how to push a heal or taunt button?

[Djiini]

I can't believe someone typed that thread title in total seriousness.

[Darturion]

What really makes me mad though in this whole thing is that you will be grouped with 2 others and they are probably not just dps only class and when you ask them can they respec they say no or they cannot because they do not have the gear. That is when I say to myself ***, L2P and politely tell them they they need to learn the other side of their class. Not as a primary role but at least in times like these. I mean really come on either we wait forever or do not get a replacement tank/healer and just quit because you are 60 or even 10 and do not know how to push a heal or taunt button?

 

I wouldn't put it this way but I support this mentality. It really helps to know the tanking and healing roles for DPS so they can perform optimally as a support to the Tank and Healer. Rather than just pew pew.

[Darturion]

That's fine, then don't play HM content... it requires a commitment of some time to be prepared for it...

 

There are 55 HM FP and tacticals you can play to your hearts content...

 

I have no problems doing HMs thank you. I'm just a compassionate person.

[FerkWork]

I have no problems doing HMs thank you. I'm just a compassionate person.

 

I just have a big back for carrying

[DarthVengeant]

People think owning a piece of metal and plastic (Xone) somehow makes them better or superior to the guy who owns the other piece of metal and plastic (PS4). Or the guy who spent $3000 on a PC is superior to BOTH of those guys somehow. Then, they all set arguing and insulting each other like 4 yr olds. The complete and utter ego driven idiocy of people now days astounds me. People needs to take their elitism and ego's and shove em. Games and gaming is about having FUN, not misguidedly making yourself feel "special" because you own something another guy doesn't.

 

It is not surprising you see the same thing in this game on various things.

 

However, the people that don't know the game or ops joining and group and not saying they dont know it, causing the entire group problems and to wipe, is a big problem. I can think of two pug ops I joined in the past week where one guy didn't know the ops and refused to say anything until it caused us all headaches and wipes. If you don't know the content you are joining a group to do, SAY SO!!!!!!! The game isn;t all about you, and if you are causing 7 other people hassles because you can't speak up and say something, then honestly, you shouldn't be playing.

 

People who are new or don't know the game simply need to join a guild. Guilds are there to help and guide, and if the guild wont do that, then you are in the wrong guild.

Edited July 19, 2015 by DarthVengeant

[Eanelinea]

I normally don't teach anyone anything cause I'm busy doing my own thing and my philosophy is, 'well, I learned how to play the game and all the side aspects using Dulfy, Google, Swtor.com and other things, they can too."

 

That's not to say I've never helped anyone at all. I usually help someone if it's legitimate 'hey, I'm not sure which type of gear to use on my sorc, Willpower or Power?' Then I'll tell them what to do. Or during the Rishi crier droid thing AFTER it had been out for months 'hey how do I get the droid to stop and speak to me, clicking on it doesn't work'.

 

Now, if someone is trying to do a lvl 20 class story piece and they're level 13, I'm not helping them. I tell them to do some side quests and they'll be good. Or I tell them 'make sure to upgrade your self and your companion every 5-10 levels even if minor upgrades.'

 

I'm not here to teach them HOW to play the game. They need to learn it on their own. Telling them where the Mod station is on the fleet, takes no time to do 'it's in the crew skill/Stronghold area'.

 

I'm not handholding people to learn how to play. They can look quests up and such like I and the other vets did. But I will tell them the proper stats to use with w/e class they are, especially if other goobers are trolling them.

 

My point is, there's HELPING someone with things and doing the work for them. I don't do work for anyone, but I'll help if I can.

 

Doesn't mean I'm a jerk, or a snob or elitist (I'm far from an elitist), but I'm not their babysitter either.

[Eanelinea]

What really makes me mad though in this whole thing is that you will be grouped with 2 others and they are probably not just dps only class and when you ask them can they respec they say no or they cannot because they do not have the gear. That is when I say to myself ***, L2P and politely tell them they they need to learn the other side of their class. Not as a primary role but at least in times like these. I mean really come on either we wait forever or do not get a replacement tank/healer and just quit because you are 60 or even 10 and do not know how to push a heal or taunt button?

 

I agree and disagree with you.

 

Agreement wise, I think everyone should know what a tank, healer and dps do. They don't have to play them but they should know the jobs. Meaning, heals heal, tanks tank, etc.

 

Not agreeing with you. If I'm on a Dps who can heal or tank also, if I'm spec'd DPS, I'm staying DPS. Doesn't matter if I know how to play the healer/tank version. I'm not carrying tons of different armor or play spec switch. I pick a spec, I stay that spec until the day the game ends and we get kicked out.

 

Though for me, I have 4 tanks, 4 healers and 14 dps. I DO have a variety to choose from, but I'm not switching. I'd rather go do something else then change how I play for others. But that's me.

[GalacticStarfigh]

I haven't played WoW in a very long time, but my understanding is that it too has gone mostly care bear... And I don't say that in a negative way, just what it is.

 

Sure, they have HM stuff, SWTOR still does, try ToS in 16m HM and tell me if SWTOR doesn't have hard content.

 

 

They've made raids ridiculously easy. Hard modes are still there, they are still difficult and very popular among people. Unlike some here claim for some reason, the whole raid culture is still up and running. Great deal of guilds are involved by default. This is what you do in WoW. Every single guild interested of raiding at all has a natural progression to worry about, a clear-for-all ladder to climb. Ridiculously easy->still quite easy->you need to know what to do->gets real difficult now. It is pretty natural progression and a decent road map. That said I really dislike way WoW handles raiding. From what I hear, WoD raids are truly excellent though.

 

But the reality is few people ever do such stuff. What does the bulk of the player base really do?

 

Only real " MAJORITY" or bulk SW:TOR or any MMO has, specially FreetoPlay, is the huge pool of people who call it quits somewhere between levels 1 and 20. I'd say this mass of quitters is pretty much the only real majority, only 50%+ portion of all players you can muster. Every other group, activity and..thing to do is something done by the minority who do not quit the game after the first 2, 10 or 25 hours.

 

Ultimately every single MMO under sun, TOR included is about appeasing diverse minorities that can have any measure of overlap.

 

Ever since 12xXP, it has been impossible to say what activities playerbase would like to do. Anyone who wants to level up characters in efficient or fast fashion has only one real option. People who love the story, people who want fast character progression and people who want a new dude at lvl cap for any number of reasons all do the same thing.

 

Back when WOW was living it's glory days, Blizzard spoke about how 70% of players never leave the starter zones. Imagine that. 70 percent. That is huge. There is no reason to assume it'd be much better or worse here. Specialy after F2P. It isn't meant as a stab against the game. Just way people are.

 

 

SWTOR was meant to have millions of subs, it did, for 3 months, then it fell off... Not enough to do and not enough spit and polish... Some of that has been fixed, but very unevenly over the years... To be frank, the CM likely saved the game, we might not even HAVE SWTOR to play without the CM today.

 

Not enough to do?! Game launched with 600 hours of class stories. Class stories that are supposedly the salt, bread and butter of this game. Launch of SW:TOR was EA asking gaming community one big 200 million dollar costing question: Are millions of people willing to subscribe to 600 hours of BIOWARE STORYTELLING. Millions of people said "nope".

 

 

Regarding EVE Online, that is another beast all together, and it will continue and thrive as an inexpensive to develop niche MMO. There is a market for that, but I don't think there is a market for 10 million paying subs for that.

 

 

One thing I've always found pretty curious in TOR community is how it never misses a change to call Eve Online "THE NICHE MMO!" in certain dismissive tone. Meanwhile, people have no trouble looking at WoW and seeing something of an equal. In 2015, WoW has around 15-20 times the Subs of TOR. Entirely different scale. Meanwhile, Eve Online had 500k Subs in 2013. Official figure in 2015is prolly closer to 400k. These numbers make it very comparable to TOR. Yet, somehow people figure out they get away with calling Eve the " NICHE" here. Believe you me, whatever ballpark TOR habits in terms of active players and paying customers, it makes one that is absolutely shared with Eve.

Edited July 19, 2015 by GalacticStarfigh

[beattlebilly]

What really makes me mad though in this whole thing is that you will be grouped with 2 others and they are probably not just dps only class and when you ask them can they respec they say no or they cannot because they do not have the gear. That is when I say to myself ***, L2P and politely tell them they they need to learn the other side of their class. Not as a primary role but at least in times like these. I mean really come on either we wait forever or do not get a replacement tank/healer and just quit because you are 60 or even 10 and do not know how to push a heal or taunt button?

 

I play this game to have fun. I don't have fun tanking or healing, so I don't tank or heal. And because I don't, I don't expect anyone else that is primarily DPS to switch to tank or heal, and I don't expect tanks and heals to switch to DPS. And how do you figure it's your place to tell people they need to play their chars the way you think they should play instead of how they want to play? Unless you're their guild leader and you're trying to reconfigure the guild, you don't get to tell people what to do with their chars and what roles they should be playing.

[Heat-Wave]

Not enough to do?! Game launched with 600 hours of class stories. Class stories that are supposedly the salt, bread and butter of this game. Launch of SW:TOR was EA asking gaming community one big 200 million dollar costing question: Are millions of people willing to subscribe to 600 hours of BIOWARE STORYTELLING. Millions of people said "nope".

 

I don't think you're going to get people to pay a monthly fee for a single player game, and that is really what the 1-50 class mission experience is.

 

What they COULD have done is sold the Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight as a boxed game, then offered the other 6 classes as DLC for $20 each.

 

People probably would have gone for that. Then sold the various upgrades, daily areas, etc. for various amount of money. Maybe places like Oricon for $5, Ziost for $5, etc.

 

If you want to access the online part, to do PvP or GSF, those would be sold for perhaps $5 per month for that part. Ops could be another $5 a month, or all of it for $9 a month.

 

But SWTOR had no end game at launch, not much of one anyway. Some people hit lvl 50 within 3 days of launch, granted that is rare, but it did happen. Within a week however there were a thousand level 50 toons on the fleet with nothing to do. Bioware thought it would take 3 months to burn the launch content, clearly they didn't know what they were getting into.

[Psychopyro]

They should both burn.

Yes, the one going under the speed limit and they guy laying on his horn....

 

I'm 40 years old, I grew up in the 80's playing the NES, which had some truly hard games.

 

There is a reason we call it Nintendo hard you know.....

 

Fair enough, like I've said, there is still a market for such games. However consider that Bloodbrone has so far sold about 1 million copies, which is good... LEGO Marvel Super Heroes has sold almost 8 million copies... Granted, that is across multiple systems, but it still has done more than 1 million on the PS4 alone...

I am going to point out that some stupid hard games sold a lot of copies.

 

Devil May Cry (2.99m), Halo (6.43m), some of the Final Fantasy games.

 

Bloodborne is a niche game though. Darker games don't always draw a huge audience though. But to think about it, Bloodborne sold about 1m copies, on a platform that has sold 20m. That is 5% of the PS4 market. Considering what it is, that is pretty good.

 

Lego Marvel Superheros is on 12 platforms, including PC/IOS/MAC/Android. That 8m number becomes less impressive.

[Jeweledleah]

Sound like they have kicked it up a notch. When I left it was no where near 500 pulls to down a boss of the top tier raid groups. What is Mythic mode?

 

Mythic is equivalent of NIM in SWTOR basically. there are 4 general modes - lfr, aka simplified story mode, normal mode and heroic - equivalents of story and hardmode respectively in TOR and .. mythic. one thin WoW has that is pretty darn nice - is flex raiding. where encounters adjust based on amount of players you have in a group

 

personally, I dislike WoW's raiding community too much to even venture in there, despite there being pretty thriving premade groupfinder (that is NOT lfr) last I tried was in early Pandaria and just... meh. huge part of it? is how gimmicky the fights have gotten. you are pretty much required to have multiple mods in order to raid. among other things.

 

The VAST majority of the player base raid using the LFR tool which is no where near "hard".

that is true, both that its not hard (its far easier that TOR storymodes) and that vast majority of players never ventures past them. however... encounters are NOT designed for this difficulty and then made harder for others. but rather - they are designed for normal difficulty and above and then simplified for lfr mode.

 

so... casual friendly? yes. has no hard content? no.

 

but... to return to topic at hand... I haven't actualy experienced nearly as much negativity in TOR is I've seen in WoW. but it does still happen. and IMO - it shouldn't.

 

P.S. there IS a market for hard games. no doubt about that. but it tends to be for the games that are primarily single player and as such? have a reload function.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Margoth]

I have no issues with players that don't know how to play IF they are willing to listen to advice.

 

I have a big issue with people that have no idea what they are doing and tell me to ****.

 

In easy FPs, you are right it is not a big issue, but those same people end up in Harder FPs and Ops. There it does matter.

[Heat-Wave]

There is a reason we call it Nintendo hard you know.....

 

It has been a LONG TIME since I've heard that term, thanks for making me smile.

 

Yep, there is hard, then there is "Nintendo Hard™"

 

I am going to point out that some stupid hard games sold a lot of copies.

 

Devil May Cry (2.99m), Halo (6.43m), some of the Final Fantasy games.

 

Never played DMC, but Halo? Hard? Really? And FF? I played FFII on the SNES, finished it too, it was LONG, but I didn't think it was hard. Finished FF7 on the PS1, that wasn't hard. FF9 and FFX were a walk in the park, X was almost too easy.

 

Did I miss something?

 

Bloodborne is a niche game though. Darker games don't always draw a huge audience though. But to think about it, Bloodborne sold about 1m copies, on a platform that has sold 20m. That is 5% of the PS4 market. Considering what it is, that is pretty good.

 

Fair enough, I don't actually know much about the game, not my cup of tea, so I'll take your word for it.

 

Lego Marvel Superheros is on 12 platforms, including PC/IOS/MAC/Android. That 8m number becomes less impressive.

 

I also did point out that LEGO Marvel Super Heroes sold over 1 million of those copies on the PS4, and it is frankly a kids game. They also pump a new one out every 6 months, so there's that.

 

Of course, I call it a kids game, I quite enjoy it myself. Not for long stretches, but it is amusing and fun to see how the various characters can solve the levels and to go back once they are unlocked in free play mode to try other solutions.

 

My 9 year old has LEGO Star Wars III on the PS3, and he has almost everything unlocked, from minikits to vehicles to hidden characters, it is quite amazing how much stuff is crammed in there.