The reason I'm worried about KotFE

[Marlowe]

Of course, one of the reasons I'm worried about "Knights of the Fallen Empire" is that it will make some huge changes in SWTOR (not in gameplay but in the status quo of the story and companions) and they are, other than in very broad strokes, unknown. And the unknown can be, to some people, terrifying. Having played since launch, there's a huge investment made to the companions, both emotionally (but, if the KotFE story is well told, that should be taken care of) and economically (this one is the major problem, as getting companion affection is somewhat expensive and time consuming and has a direct impact on crafting). There's of course the chance that BW is changing the system (suggestion: make all companions have generic bonus like HK and Treek have), so I'll hold on to this particular issue until a later date. And they haven't really addressed the endgame in KotFE either, so I'll save that alongside crafting as something that hopefully can surprise me positively soon.

 

The foremost worry I have is that, while story has been long called the fourth pillar of this game, its evolution has been disappointing since SWTOR Vanilla. It starts strong enough, as the 4 starter planets are heavy in class stories and light on side quests. The 2 capital planets are slightly worse, but still have a healthy dose of unique (quote unquote, as this assumes you are playing each class just once) quests. As the game progresses, it becomes lighter and lighter in class quests; to make matters worse, 3 planets (Tat, Alderaan and Voss) have, a few quests which are pretty much the same for both factions. Playing through with a second (or third or thirteenth) toon is more and more repetitive. But up to Corellia, at least, we still have class quests that offer SOME variety. Ilum (already predicting the model for the RotHC expansion with Makeb) does not have any class-unique content at all.

 

Now, of course the 12x XP for class stories pretty much kills this issue as it makes the non-class quests in all the planets unnecessary.

 

At least, in SWTOR Vanilla, the daily quests are different for each faction (across Ilum, Belsavis and later Section X and Black Hole).

 

SoR digs further into that hole. (To be fair, it started even earlier, with the Oricon quest line being exactly the same, except for a few cut scenes; the same was true, for all practical purposes, for the quest line preceding SoR.) There is a brief quest that is class-specific, but for the most part (and by that I mean only the cut scenes differ), they are exactly the same quests.

 

Everything suggests that it'll get even worse with KotFE. The two factions are even being done with (but not to the point where it's actually a good thing, namely the ability to group, for whatever part of the content, cross-faction). It's not even clear if different classes are getting different companions (and likely are just getting the exact same quests with somewhat different cutscenes).

 

And, all that to tell a story that, from the get-go, is resorting to the worst narrative devices there are: escaping prison (of sorts) and finding out you are the chosen one. For all their fame of telling good stories (which are good videogame stories, but comparable to, at best, bad books and bad films), these tropes are a very bad and poor switch by BioWare, which were able to somehow escape them so far.

 

Of course, LOTRO has only one story (but it's arguably a very solid one); GW2 seems to be veering towards a single story as well; TESO is also somewhat limited. But SWTOR was somewhat special, and it's becoming less so.

 

The fourth pillar, honestly, is crumbling.

[LyraineAlei]

My Inqs knew s/he was the Chosen One ever since Korribani, made obvious on Kaas.

 

Trooper knew they were (if not The chosen one, at least Very ******), from level One since s/he is a recruit into The Havoc Squad, the mascot-type Squad of the whole Republic Army since they only go in when things go Very Bad.

 

BH, Smuggler and Agent never really have a Chosen One moment (likely due to their jobs), but they are The Best At The Job They Do.

 

Knights and Consulars are told about how strong they are from Level One, as is the Warrior, even though the Consular is the more often told about how strong s/he is.

 

Edit: Fully agree that the uniqueness of each class is a huge part of this game's replay value, just slightly disagreeing about the whole Chosen One thing being told after waking out if a prison, when half the classes knew they were Chosen Ones at something by the time they get to level 60, the others I suspect would be more skeptical and likely to say "No, I'm just good at what I do."

Edited June 23, 2015 by LyraineAlei

[Marlowe]

That's a good point. It seems they are taking it much further this time, however, and at least MassivelyOP actually goes as far as caling the player's character "Chosen One". That may or may not be true in-game; no matter, as that's not the main point I originally made, anyway.

[Callaron]

That's a good point. It seems they are taking it much further this time, however, and at least MassivelyOP actually goes as far as caling the player's character "Chosen One". That may or may not be true in-game; no matter, as that's not the main point I originally made, anyway.

 

We're pretty much becoming The Inquisitor from Dragon Age Inquisition*.

I fully expect we'll start building our power base once we're clear of Zakuul, with Lana bringing us intel and Koth training our resistance fighters.

 

* Or any other Bioware protagonist for that matter. Most of them face overwhelming odds and gather allies around them at some point.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Callaron

[Aelflaed]

Maybe they have more choices than it appears, but I've been thinking about this, too. First, the choices seem to be 'dark v light' and that generally means 'maniacally evil' vs 'not killing everyone,' and I have always found that pretty meh. (dark especially - I tried making a dark character but it seemed silly, childish, & completely lacking in any nuance whatsoever. Dark = stab)

 

I think I'll focus on a favorite character on each side, & stick with that. Maybe, with luck, it will be a story I'd like to replay a lot, & with a LOT of luck, it will have more interesting choices than "I'm a psychopath or lawful good," but that would be a surprise.

[Callaron]

Maybe they have more choices than it appears, but I've been thinking about this, too. First, the choices seem to be 'dark v light' and that generally means 'maniacally evil' vs 'not killing everyone,' and I have always found that pretty meh. (dark especially - I tried making a dark character but it seemed silly, childish, & completely lacking in any nuance whatsoever. Dark = stab)

 

I think I'll focus on a favorite character on each side, & stick with that. Maybe, with luck, it will be a story I'd like to replay a lot, & with a LOT of luck, it will have more interesting choices than "I'm a psychopath or lawful good," but that would be a surprise.

 

The key to playing a successful Dark Side character is not to stress about hitting Dark V (you'll get there eventually) and to not be afraid to pick neutral and even good options when they make sense. There are some brilliant Dark Side options in the game alongside all the common thuggery. (I found Imperial Makeb to be especially good for a Dark Side character, where you can really shine as a ruthless bastard.)

Edited June 23, 2015 by Callaron

[dovid-r]

that's an excellent question. A few things come to mind on this particular issue:

 

1. RotHC had completely different objectives for both sides:

sorry, no spoilers. Gotcha though, didn't I?

 

 

2. SoR and it's respective update found both sides having common interests and needing to work together to succeed. After seeing all the interviews, it would seem that

your character is trying to rebuild your respective faction to its former glory.

In addition, it has been made clear that there will be 8 separate storylines, one for each character.

 

3. Interestingly enough, I've seen a lot of people want a factionless "paradise".

 

It would seem, however, that they will be disappointed based on the evidence in the first 2 points. My issue is that each "chapter" won't even be able to be nearly as long as

Chapter 4, which happens on only one planet

, let alone any of the other chapters. We will run out of the "updated" content almost as soon as each part comes out.

[MadDutchman]

dark is also better on Republic chars, where psychopath is replaced largely with questionable pragmatism.

 

Off the top of my head, the knight is the only one who still is largely a psychopath when dark.

[Aelflaed]

The key to playing a successful Dark Side character is not to stress about hitting Dark V (you'll get there eventually) and to not be afraid to pick neutral and even good options when they make sense. There are some brilliant Dark Side options in the game alongside all the common thuggery. (I found Imperial Makeb to be especially good for a Dark Side character, where you can really shine as a ruthless bastard.)

 

 

That's good advice! Every time I've tried it, it just comes off as deranged. I'd hoped that a Dark Jedi would be something more nuanced than, "Sure, I'll stab you, take your money, then lie to someone somewhere about it." I wanted it to be more - chaotic, rebellious, but not psycho. (Same for Sith, actually, but I wanted to be a Dark Jedi when I started. I got to about the 3rd choice & remade her)

 

 

What about a dark Trooper? (I made a male, because the female's voice is too flat for my taste, Hale or not) I probably picked more dark options on him, & those seemed more in line with my vision of 'Dark Side.'

Edited June 23, 2015 by Aelflaed

[CrazyOldMystic]

I have always posted against more story driven content, because I believed they did not have the resources for it. Everything we saw when this game when F2p pointed to the fact that EA was no longer properly supporting swtor, and it had become nothing more then a money grab game. Expansions like Makeb did not help matters. When I see what they are doing with KotFE its a good sign they are getting support, and its also a obvious sign they have plans to make the game far more then a money grab. The game has had issues, and you need to start the repair job somewhere. This new expansion KoTFE feels like a restart for the game, and a start of a major long term overhaul. If they get this right then who knows whats next on the list.

 

As far as planetary regular quests being useless at 12xp, that is not anywhere near accurate. First item they give you is the chance to learn your class as you progress. The second item they give you is basic comms, so you can keep your character, and one companion decent stat wise. Another item they offer you is a chance to upgrade your crafting, if you just do the 12xp you move so fast, you have no time to do this. Last but not least they give you credits.

 

My point people need to relax about this expansion, offer up suggestion sure, but even the devs continue to say they have not announced everything about this expansion. Sure the focus is the story but they have hardly given us every little detail.

[aztecknight]

The 4th pillar began crumbling shortly after launch. Each expansion has focused on an outside threat rather than using the backdrop of a galactic war to tell the story. Only the 3rd Chapter of Vanilla and the events in the Black Hole and the first half of Ilum focused on the Republic taking on the Empire. It's like the writing department has been too shy to do anything bold in 3 years. Now suddenly there's a shift to single player story telling. Not really buying it. I've been with this game since launch and followed everything about it since 2008. It's biggest issue has been defining itself. It begins with good story telling and develops into a PVE focused game. PVP (including the scorned GSF, which I love btw) rarely get any attention if any. People like myself, who made the jump into the MMO world to be part of a story in the Star Wars universe, have been stuck in limbo for three years now. Every now and then my level 60 Light Side Assassin does something interesting, but for the most part his story has stopped just like the story of the Galactic War. Now we're getting back into the structure of story telling but I worry that it's going to come at the further expense of PVP/GSF and the added expense of PVE.

 

It's a shame because I've enjoyed the game, I just wish Bioware/EA had given it the clear direction it needed by keeping with the same model they used in Vanilla and sticking to the story.

[branmakmuffin]

Of course, one of the reasons I'm worried about "Knights of the Fallen Empire" is that it will make some huge changes in SWTOR (not in gameplay but in the status quo of the story and companions) and they are, other than in very broad strokes, unknown. And the unknown can be, to some people, terrifying.

Anyone who finds changes to the way a computer game works "terrifying" probably should not be playing that game as they are clearly taking things a teensy weensy itsy bitsy too seriously.

 

Having played since launch

Oh, posting that is never a good sign.

Edited June 23, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[TheSeventhJedi]

[Vhaegrant]

I wonder what the in-game metrics show.

 

How many players complete more than one class story through to the end?

 

This infographic -> http://www.swtor.com/info/news/news-article/20141126 celebrating the third anniversary had some interesting metrics on it.

 

While 57 million characters had been created a little under 7million (6,824056) had made it far enough into the game to gain their spaceship (at the end of the home world ~level 18). Averaging the overall playtime of 635 million hours across these characters suggests only 11hours per character (very unrealistic to assume equal playtime, but with the quickest to level 50 at just under 60hours it does suggest the vast majority of characters never made it to max level).

 

So, while individual class stories looks like an amazing idea on paper what it amounts to in developer resources is massive wastage on content the vast majority of the gamer base will never see. If you try to factor in 'meaningful' choices that have impact later on in the game and are referenced back to this multiplies the amount of content (in terms of dialogue) that players are unlikely to ever see.

 

It doesn't matter if the Jedi Knight, Trooper, Smuggler and Jedi Consular end up doing the same quests if all you play is a single character.

 

I'm more worried about how the companions are going to be treated than I am having to run similar content across all my characters.

[t-darko]

.

 

The fourth pillar, honestly, is crumbling.

 

YOUR PERSONAL SAGA

Play one of eight class stories enhanced to offer a deeper, more accessible experience purely focused on immersing you in a personal Star Wars story.

 

To get the whole story to level 50 you need to play almost all 8 classes, some would say that is overreaching. I'm all for whining and such IF it's all BAD, but to be honest, none of that can actually be determined until we play it, and then it all will be very subjectively viewed and whined/praised.

 

I view your OP as a therapeutic attempt to ease your mind and the horrible feeling of not knowing . . .

 

"All things in it's own time, Padawan, do not waste the moment on a future that may or may not happen, be mindful of the present."

Edited June 24, 2015 by t-darko

[Xonell]

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach to the new game. I agree with the OPs main points and I've always disliked the tendency of MMOs to move toward one single player game, the sort of pyramid-shaped storytelling that we've seen elsewhere. Lots of variety at low levels to keep people from quitting right away, then narrowing the storytelling as the level increases. One thing that drew me to SWTOR was the 8 separate class storylines that went all the way to 50. I can understand why, from a cost perspective, games would do this, but it's not my preferred type of gaming.

 

I have to admit that, so far, I haven't seen anything that's made me excited for the new expansion. None of it really appeals to me. Not the characters, not the change in the story, not the ego-fulfillment storytelling focus, not the single person gameplay, not the possible loss of our companions and the stories we've built, or the npcs we've grown to love.

 

I'm not quitting yet, but I'm constantly looking for any news, leaks, or spoilers that will help me decide if this is still the game for me.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Xonell

[Eldarion_Velator]

I get that maybe with reduced storytelling/storymaking resources BioWare wanted to do something of an overhaul. But the game's problems, and there are many, do not stem from the original storytelling. In my opinion, the single aspect of this game that is better than any other MMO out there is the story (at least through Makeb). I first started playing The Old Republic because I had played KotOR I and II, greatly enjoyed the story and the atmosphere, and continued to play originally because of the immense variety and superb quality of storytelling in the game. I now play for mostly end-game reasons, galactic starfighter/PvP, for e-peen (being able to put your money where your mouth is, I find, is quite nice), and to a certain extent to be able to power through the early planets that I had found initially so difficult when I rolled my first character (a Jedi Shadow tank). In all honesty, everything else about the game is mechanically comparable or inferior to what other MMOs are doing.

 

But here's the rub: that is absolutely fine. Sure, we'll complain about this, that, and the other small mechanical thing, mechanical bugs, the Hero engine, etc. But when push comes to shove, we played this game for the 8 main class stories. We stuck through Ilum, Makeb, CZ-198, and Oricon for the story (i.e. the aftermath of Corellia), and honestly I think the quality of those stories, while not as diverse, was still very high. We endured the rise of the Revanites/Shadow of Revan, whose story as applicable to player characters is quite a bit more flat than is characteristic for BioWare. With Knights of the Fallen Empire, this trend is not looking positive. Mechanically, the game engine will divide characters into factions, but the story in Knights of the Fallen Empire is going to be the same regardless of faction, even more so than Shadow of Revan. At least in Shadow of Revan the dialogue was different through interaction with different NPCs, but now *every* character that you run through the Knights of the Fallen Empire story will have the exact same interaction with the exact same NPCs. It is evident that the storytelling, regardless of who sugarcoats it how, is substantially inferior not only to expectations, but the standards the game set for itself at launch. It is as if the entire game is filtering 8 primary classes of character into 2 (i.e. faction-specific), and now into 1, character story. What this essentially amounts to is a prolonged single character creation process. Recall character selection in KotOR, i.e. whether or not your POV character (well, spoilers, it's amnesiac Revan) is a soldier, scoundrel, etc.? Well, The Old Republic's progression has essentially drawn that process out into a years-long story. Instead of 16 or so chapters, would it be so difficult to instead turn Knights of the Fallen Empire into a 2-chapter epic (just like starter planet through Alderaan is Chapter 1, and from there through Hoth is Chapter 2, etc.) for each of the 8 major classes? That would still come out to 16 total chapters, and I believe that would please far more players, potential players, and observers than the currently proposed format.

 

But, surprisingly, this weakening of story is not my biggest complaint. My most serious gripe about the upcoming expansion has everything to do with proposed/inferred mechanical changes to gameplay, including the potential loss of companions. Not only will this affect crafting (which, for a large proportion of the player base, including myself, is a very efficient way of earning credits that they can use to buy the stuff they want/need, i.e. participate more fully in the gameplay), this will affect daily missions, heroic missions, flashpoints (for instance if you group with 3 players and one of them brings out his/her super companion)...the list goes on. There are other major mechanical changes which I will not directly name here, but there is absolutely no reasonable justification for making any of these changes. None. What's more, none of these changes improve or correct the original gripes about mechanics/gameplay. If they wanted the game to be such a substantially different experience or resolve some of the perennial mechanical complaints players have had about the game, they should have instead made an entirely new game using a different game engine. It is highly irresponsible to release a game (prematurely, according to some), then years after release (when paying subscribers have largely gotten used to its unique idiosyncrasies and happily play the game regardless), rather than work out all or the vast majority of bugs (to include in-game misspellings and inconsistent spellings, cf. the Makeb staged weekly for the Republic faction - it's spelled "incoming," not "incomming") mechanically alter it so much so as to be irreconcilable with the original gameplay. This is my concern, and if they are implemented without some sort of opt-out (while I didn't use it, I was pleased that there is an opt-out for the 12x XP, which suggests that the devs aren't tyrants and won't force major changes down our throats), I will be required to do two things: 1) search for an open-source server version of this game (or make one myself) as many have done with SWG, and 2) cease subscribing and playing the game, since the developers/EA will have clearly displayed their lack of regard for my subscription and input.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Eldarion_Velator
some more details/clarifications

[Aries_cz]

Mechanically, the game engine will divide characters into factions, but the story in Knights of the Fallen Empire is going to be the same regardless of faction, even more so than Shadow of Revan. At least in Shadow of Revan the dialogue was different through interaction with different NPCs, but now *every* character that you run through the Knights of the Fallen Empire story will have the exact same interaction with the exact same NPCs.

This has been stated as being wrong. There are still class (and thus, faction) specific lines.

 

But, surprisingly, this weakening of story is not my biggest complaint. My most serious gripe about the upcoming expansion has everything to do with proposed/inferred mechanical changes to gameplay, including the potential loss of companions. Not only will this affect crafting (which, for a large proportion of the player base, including myself, is a very efficient way of earning credits that they can use to buy the stuff they want/need, i.e. participate more fully in the gameplay), this will affect daily missions, heroic missions, flashpoints (for instance if you group with 3 players and one of them brings out his/her super companion)...the list goes on.

All companions will now be super, thanks to being able to pick whatever role you need from them and being kept on par you you regarding stats. And in regards to sending companions out to craft, there might be more severe changes than we realize, so while we might not be able to start instantly sending out all 6 companions to craft immediately after waking up from carbonite, after you escape zakuul, there might be something that completely fixes that issue

[Khevar]

This has been stated as being wrong. There are still class (and thus, faction) specific lines.

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of where I can read that? It was my understanding that there were no class-specific anythings in 4.0.

[kodrac]

Nice necro

[Rafaman]

Heh. The handwringing is only going to ramp up in the come weeks.

 

I really hope the color scheme for the game stays the same. I'm really worried everything will be in neon.

[_Kezza_]

I am worried about it as well but for a ver different reason. I get the ferling thst thry might kill off a few characters including Lana. For her its just the way she talls in the trailer.

 

amyone else getting this feeling?

Edited September 16, 2015 by _Kezza_

[SaerethDL]

Here's a little song I wrote

You might want to sing it note for note

Don't worry, be happy

In every life we have some trouble

But when you worry you make it double

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy now

 

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

 

Ain't got no place to lay your head

Somebody came and took your bed

Don't worry, be happy

The landlord say your rent is late

He may have to litigate

Don't worry, be happy

 

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

 

(Look at me, I'm happy, don't worry, be happy

Here I give you my phone number, when you worry, call me,

I make you happy, don't worry, be happy)

Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style

Ain't got no gal to make you smile

Don't worry, be happy

'Cause when you worry your face will frown

And that will bring everybody down

Don't worry, be happy

 

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

Don't worry, be happy

 

(Don't worry, don't worry, don't do it

Be happy, put a smile on your face

Don't bring everybody down

Don't worry, it will soon pass, whatever it is

Don't worry, be happy

I'm not worried, I'm happy)

 

[TravelersWay]

Nice necro

Not as bad as others.

 

I am worried about it as well but for a ver different reason. I get the ferling thst thry might kill off a few characters including Lana. For her its just the way she talls in the trailer.

 

amyone else getting this feeling?

 

Nope, because they pretty much confirmed she becomes one of our new companions in our "alliance"

Edited September 17, 2015 by TravelersWay

[Kary]

This new expansion KoTFE feels like a restart for the game, and a start of a major long term overhaul. If they get this right then who knows whats next on the list.

 

My point people need to relax about this expansion, offer up suggestion sure, but even the devs continue to say they have not announced everything about this expansion. Sure the focus is the story but they have hardly given us every little detail.

 

KoTFE does not really give us the feel for the game restart. Take a look at FFXIV 1.0 and see how SE admitted the game is badly done. They gave players F2P on FFXIV 1.0 and even discount subscription cost on new FFXIV 2.0 for those players that played the FFXIV 1.0, promising them the next new FFXIV 2.0 will be better and that is what we really called RESTART.

 

They also updated players regularly on how they revamp the game with better engine and they really did it with "FFXIV: A Realm Reborn" and now they just recently got a big expansion which was critically successful. Perhaps BW/EA should take a step backward and learn from other MMO company.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Kary