So since you nerfed Shadow/Assassin Dotspread

[iamnotshrek]

You do realize that all those PTs are tanks, and the operatives are healers. The sorcs on the team ranked board are also healers, although the solo ranked leaderboards they are mostly going to be madness sorcs although a lot of them are probably skank healing.

 

To be fair, I don't know every ranked player in the game, particularly the top solo ranked pt's, who i am almost completely unfamiliar with. However, I can tell you that the #1 operative was playing concealment the last time I saw him in solo ranked and White, the #3 op/scoud, almost exclusively plays ruffian.

 

Again, I'm not saying that assassins aren't good. All I'm saying is that I think that they are among the best classes for solo ranked but not by far the best as some people believe. However, even if we accept the idea that assassins are ridiculously overpowered, it doesn't really change my opinion about hatred death field. Death field was 30 meters for assassins since 1.0 and nobody really had an issue with it. Even when the nerf did happen, many people criticized it for not really addressing the actual issues the spec has which make it so strong.

 

I can understand wanting to clearly establish hatred as a melee class, but even classes that are unquestionably full melee classes such as juggernauts and marauders have at least one u ability that can consistently be used at 30 meters, so I don't see why assassins should be excluded from that because capabilities completely unrelated to death field made them so good.

[Lhancelot]

They're trying to reinforce you guys as a melee to mid-range class.

 

Alright. So, exactly where was the memo from the devs stating this? I am not doubting this may be their intention, but there's also no proof that I know of that this is their intentions for the class.

 

If they never said this, then you don't know any better than anyone else what direction the devs want this class to go (sometimes it seems they are confused too.)

 

 

Asking to be returned to 30m like Sorcerers does not fit both what range your class is supposed to be at or how effective it currently is in PvP.

 

Where is this memo at that explains what hatred sins are "supposed to be at"? You have no more idea than anyone else.

 

Also, like others pointed out, other pure melee classes (juggs/maras) do have 30m ranged attacks. I am pretty sure in the scheme of juggs and maras, they are "supposed" to be melee and close ranged, right? Yet they do have a ranged attack(s).

 

I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statements and how they don't really add up to the design of other classes using your logic.

 

Honestly I do not have a high lvl sin, it's not my main, and I went through different stages regarding this particular spec. I went from hating how easy it seemed to get such huge numbers to growing used to it. If they got 30m range back on deathfield I don't think it would break anything, especially seeing it will not spread dots.

[DarthOvertone]

Can we have 30m Force in Balance back now?

 

I'm down for the return of the 30m FiB.

 

However, the nerf to Shadow/Sin dotspread was very slight. Just have to use WB instead of FiB now. Not that big a deal considering how overtuned the spec is.

 

 

Since MERCS healz still suck can we get increased damage on RAILSHOT and heatseeker plz

 

Emergency Scan and Rapid Scan are getting buffed in 3.3.

 

 

all true and, frankly, that's out of hand given the burst capabilities and instant nature of all their attacks, but in their defense, they are supposed to be rangy and have always been designed that way.

 

Their DCDs are also trash compared to melee classes. Their midrange capabilities come with a price.

[Lalainnia]

Whirlwind is 30m sure it doesn't do damage but it's 30 add in all the other options that assassins already have and they're fine, also this is good next on the bring back to reality specs should be AP and Shieldtech.

[TheJollyRogers]

Alright. So, exactly where was the memo from the devs stating this? I am not doubting this may be their intention, but there's also no proof that I know of that this is their intentions for the class.

 

If they never said this, then you don't know any better than anyone else what direction the devs want this class to go (sometimes it seems they are confused too.)

 

Where is this memo at that explains what hatred sins are "supposed to be at"? You have no more idea than anyone else.

 

Are you on the PTS forums?

 

They post their combat design notes when they make changes for each iteration. When the changes to Demolish and DF came out, along with the changes to remove Unload for PTs, it was said to reinforce the classes as mid-range melee. I would link to it, but they delete their combat notes after each PTS build.

 

However, they have posted the combat notes for the most recent change, and just like before:

 

We decided to reinforce the Hatred Assassin as a melee combatant and moved their DoT spread to a melee-range ability.

 

Source: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8258776#edit8258776

 

Please do a bit more research before telling me I'm full of it and making it up.

Edited June 19, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[Zoom_VI]

Emergency Scan and Rapid Scan are getting buffed in 3.3.

 

No. They are removing Healing Scan from DPS mercs and replacing it with Rapid scan. Or in other words they are replacing a 13.5 sec cd 9k heal with a 3k spammable heal. With the latest PTS changes commandos have to spend at least 4 charged barrel stacks just to get the equivalent burst heal that only healing scan did baseline.

 

Also they are only buffing Emergency Scan for combat medic, not the entire AC.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Let's not derail this thread. I have stated multiple times that I don't care what the dot spread mechanic is, I am perfectly FINE with Lacerate spreading dots. This request is more QoL as Force in Balance is just a regular 7k damage nuke ability now, nothing special about it barring the increased dot damage which we've already established only adds roughly 600 damage onto a dot's total damage, not a big deal.

 

Even with 30m FiB, it's still a melee class with primarily melee abilities. Having 1 30m ability doesn't make it a range class anymore than 30m Saber throw makes juggs a "ranged class".

[TheJollyRogers]

Let's not derail this thread. I have stated multiple times that I don't care what the dot spread mechanic is, I am perfectly FINE with Lacerate spreading dots. This request is more QoL as Force in Balance is just a regular 7k damage nuke ability now, nothing special about it barring the increased dot damage which we've already established only adds roughly 600 damage onto a dot's total damage, not a big deal.

 

Even with 30m FiB, it's still a melee class with primarily melee abilities. Having 1 30m ability doesn't make it a range class anymore than 30m Saber throw makes juggs a "ranged class".

 

It's not a simple nuke. It's an AOE damage ability that ignores armor, puts Death Mark on everyone it hits and heals the caster.

 

Do you honestly think, considering Assassin's performance in ranked, they need a nerf reversed?

Edited June 19, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

It's not a simple nuke. It's an AOE damage ability that ignores armor, puts Death Mark on everyone it hits and heals the caster.

 

Do you honestly think, considering Assassin's performance in ranked, they need a nerf reversed?

 

Yes actually, because this not only hurts ranked players, I also play my Shadow in PvE and Serenity is TERRIBLE and with this change to Lacerate it only makes it that much worse. In ranked, Lacerate dotspread is fine, in Operations it simply isn't and 30m FiB would go a long way to bring back a semblance of raid viability to this already lackluster PvE spec.

 

Also, keep in mind, with each nerf to Serenity/Hatred it performs worse than it did before the nerf, obviously. My point being, how many more nerfs need to occur before Serenity/Hatred is considered balanced in PvP WITHOUT gutting it for PvE?

[Technohic]

Sounds to me that they need to look at melee viability in those PvE things rather than give a ranged ability to a melee class because of it. I'm sure other melee would appreciate that suggestion.

[Zoom_VI]

WITHOUT gutting it for PvE?

 

Here is what you are failing to see. You will never see PvE viability while Hatred is the top class in PvP. Hatred must be cut down in PvP before PvE can be addressed

 

The whole reason balance in PvP and PvE has suffered so much post 3.0 is because post 3.0 the best DPS spec for PvP and the best DPS spec for PvE are the same spec for almost every single AC with Marauders and Sorcs being the only exception.

 

Hatred must be cut down from viability in PvP. Deception must become the goto PvP spec for assassins. Then and only then will the devs be able to address PvE without having massive ramifications in PvP.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[foxmob]

Their DCDs are also trash compared to melee classes. Their midrange capabilities come with a price.

 

yes. that is definitely worth pointing out. however, nobody can range anyone in this game with the exception of maras, who are easily ranged, and sorcs, who can easily range anyone. it's possible I only feel this way because I'm running around on 3 merc specs and the worst possible PT spec 95% of the time that I'm in game. iunno. but it definitely feels, to me, like there's no such thing as maintaining spacing. .there's just "shallow breaths" followed by long periods of choke, ravage, demolish, lightning ball, assassinate.

[Aetideus]

Here is what you are failing to see. You will never see PvE viability while Hatred is the top class in PvP. Hatred must be cut down in PvP before PvE can be addressed

 

The whole reason balance in PvP and PvE has suffered so much post 3.0 is because post 3.0 the best DPS spec for PvP and the best DPS spec for PvE are the same spec for almost every single AC with Marauders and Sorcs being the only exception.

 

Hatred must be cut down from viability in PvP. Deception must become the goto PvP spec for assassins. Then and only then will the devs be able to address PvE without having massive ramifications in PvP.

 

Deception is fine. Just nerf Hatred 3.0 abilities and give more single target as 2.8.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Aetideus

[Jadescythe]

Yes actually, because this not only hurts ranked players, I also play my Shadow in PvE and Serenity is TERRIBLE and with this change to Lacerate it only makes it that much worse. In ranked, Lacerate dotspread is fine, in Operations it simply isn't and 30m FiB would go a long way to bring back a semblance of raid viability to this already lackluster PvE spec.

 

Also, keep in mind, with each nerf to Serenity/Hatred it performs worse than it did before the nerf, obviously. My point being, how many more nerfs need to occur before Serenity/Hatred is considered balanced in PvP WITHOUT gutting it for PvE?

 

This doesn't even make sense. In no way does making this ability 30 meters do anything for raid viability.

 

And honestly after review, I'm not even sure this is a nerf. You can just constantly be spreading DoTs with Lacerate and proccing Demolish at the same time. The DoT spread probably needs a 10 or so second ICD so you can't spam DoT spread to everyone who gets in range of someone you're attacking.

[Zoom_VI]

Deception is fine. Just nerf Hatred 3.0 abilities and give more single target as 2.8.

 

Deception is fine until it gets into any match involving tanks and healers. In such scenarios Deception is crap because it's burst is spread across to large of a window to be effective.

[TheJollyRogers]

Yes actually, because this not only hurts ranked players, I also play my Shadow in PvE and Serenity is TERRIBLE and with this change to Lacerate it only makes it that much worse. In ranked, Lacerate dotspread is fine, in Operations it simply isn't and 30m FiB would go a long way to bring back a semblance of raid viability to this already lackluster PvE spec.

 

Also, keep in mind, with each nerf to Serenity/Hatred it performs worse than it did before the nerf, obviously. My point being, how many more nerfs need to occur before Serenity/Hatred is considered balanced in PvP WITHOUT gutting it for PvE?

 

Every melee class is suffering in PvE. This is a problem with BioWare's mechanic design for PvE, which heavily favors ranged classes. The answer to that problem is not to make melee/mid-range melee have more full-ranged abilities. BioWare needs to make future PvE encounters not so melee-penalized.

 

And honestly after review, I'm not even sure this is a nerf. You can just constantly be spreading DoTs with Lacerate and proccing Demolish at the same time. The DoT spread probably needs a 10 or so second ICD so you can't spam DoT spread to everyone who gets in range of someone you're attacking.

 

It definitely is a nerf. You're comparing a 10m user-radius white-damage attack to a 10m ground-targeted internal-damage AOE with a 6m radius that heals and applies Death Mark. Sins/Shadows will have to get more into the fray to spread their DoTs after this change. That is a good thing. However, that isn't what K'rea is talking about. He's fine with the DoT-spread change. (I believe - don't want to put words in your mouth, K'rea)

Edited June 19, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[zZeroAgent]

Every melee class is suffering in PvE. This is a problem with BioWare's mechanic design for PvE, which heavily favors ranged classes. The answer to that problem is not to make melee/mid-range melee have more full-ranged abilities. BioWare needs to make future PvE encounters not so melee-penalized.

 

This is not a matter of having more full ranged abilities, it's a matter of having ONE full ranged ability, which every other class has.

 

Now with dot spread changed, I agree that this needs to happen

[waterboytkd]

What if, rather than boosting FiB/DF's range, they gave all Shadows/Sins a boost in Force Slow range to 30m, and then gave a utility somewhere (or altered a utility) to add a root to it? Ie, Static Cling could change to "Force Slow now immobilizes the target for 3 seconds, after which the reduction in speed takes effect."

[TheJollyRogers]

This is not a matter of having more full ranged abilities, it's a matter of having ONE full ranged ability, which every other class has.

 

Now with dot spread changed, I agree that this needs to happen

 

Did Creeping Terror delete itself off your bars? Recknessless + Force Lightening? You don't need your powerful 8m-radius AOE nuke that applies death mark, ignores armor and heals to be your primary 30m ranged ability.

 

What if, rather than boosting FiB/DF's range, they gave all Shadows/Sins a boost in Force Slow range to 30m, and then gave a utility somewhere (or altered a utility) to add a root to it? Ie, Static Cling could change to "Force Slow now immobilizes the target for 3 seconds, after which the reduction in speed takes effect."

 

Shadows/Sins don't need to be compensated for nerfs. That's not how nerfing works. It's supposed to reduce effectiveness.

Edited June 19, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[Zoom_VI]

This is not a matter of having more full ranged abilities, it's a matter of having ONE full ranged ability, which every other class has.

 

the difference here is that the 30m attacks available to other melees are weak. You're not going to hurt anything with flurry of bolts, Frag, or Saber Throw. You can however seriously hurt stuff with a 6-7k internal damage 16m diameter PAoE.

[waterboytkd]

Shadows/Sins don't need to be compensated for nerfs. That's not how nerfing works. It's supposed to reduce effectiveness.

 

That's true, and I guess I was suggesting that in concert with other changes in my head, which I'm sure seems confusing for, well, everyone else. I was thinking about that change to Force Slow at the same time Low Slash gets returned to a 4m attack that can proc Duplicity off its normal rate limit (a suggestion from another thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=817441).

 

That said, I think it's good if every class has at least 1 ability that can interrupt a node cap at 30m. Requiring Shadows/Sins to use Recklessness to do that is just bad design. Force Slow could fill that niche nicely. And then, from my perspective, FiB/DF could stay at 10m just fine.

 

Then again, maybe I'm not the best person for this discussion as I didn't care for Serenity/Hatred at all--it felt too much like a ranged class that only wanted to close to melee for some procs. I'd have liked the class better if FiB/DF were an AoE centered on yourself (and didn't require double-tapping or ground targeting), but I can bet how much long-time Serenity/Hatred players would love that.

[Jadescythe]

This is not a matter of having more full ranged abilities, it's a matter of having ONE full ranged ability, which every other class has.

 

Now with dot spread changed, I agree that this needs to happen

 

Just make force lightning 30m by default or something instead of relying on Recklessness. Death Field is probably not the right ability to make their only 30m one.

[Zoom_VI]

Just make force lightning 30m by default or something instead of relying on Recklessness. Death Field is probably not the right ability to make their only 30m one.

 

nah make force slow 30m.

[Hei_Atzfel]

Deception is fine until it gets into any match involving tanks and healers. In such scenarios Deception is crap because it's burst is spread across to large of a window to be effective.

 

ITT: Deception is a regstar spec. Granted a fun one

[Jadescythe]

nah make force slow 30m.

 

That's kind of a huge buff to anti-kiting. If all we want to do is make Sins have a reliable 30m cap stopper, it's gotta be an ability that has very little effect. FL would be ok because it has a slow, but is also channeled so it won't let you catch someone at the same time.