Gunnery versus Marksman

[Zoidrinali]

I just want the old EMP on just the probe to do the stun and it reset the CDs like it used to. Think I would be a happy camper then.

You know I'm with you on that dude

 

However I've been thinking about that. Lets just say we get the old EMP discharge back. Do we keep the damage it currently does? If we do then it presents a problem on whether we use EMP discharge to do damage or to reset, if it doesn't then we essentially loose that damage and need something else to make up for it.

 

With the loss of ambush, I don't know about you but the spec already feels empty, we would need either a brand new damage dealing skill or a broken skill that does both damage and resets which wouldn't be in our interests. What I would favour is to have those resets placed on countermeasures instead. Have one of our engineering passive skills put the resets on that instead of EMP discharge.

[Technohic]

You know I'm with you on that dude

 

However I've been thinking about that. Lets just say we get the old EMP discharge back. Do we keep the damage it currently does? If we do then it presents a problem on whether we use EMP discharge to do damage or to reset, if it doesn't then we essentially loose that damage and need something else to make up for it.

 

With the loss of ambush, I don't know about you but the spec already feels empty, we would need either a brand new damage dealing skill or a broken skill that does both damage and resets which wouldn't be in our interests. What I would favour is to have those resets placed on countermeasures instead. Have one of our engineering passive skills put the resets on that instead of EMP discharge.

 

 

That or why we didn't get a new ability like the other specs is beyond me. Really; losing armor piercing hurt damage and it looks like they intended to boost AOE damage with overwhelm to compensate but how much AOE do we really have that is practical to use? Its all ground based and nade lost its AOE. I wouldn't mind a SOS to have a new version with explosive rounds that do AOE damage.

[Jadescythe]

Not PvPing until 3.3 because I don't wanna grind out gear after coming back. But if you think Sniper and Merc are the same in PvE you're wrong. For phases that require a lot of movement, you can have potentially 2 instant TMs, Priming Shot, Blazing Bolts on the move, HSM instant, and Rail Shot instant. Sniper is going to be AAing and maybe you have a Followthrough up or the boss is low and you can use Takedown. IO is of course the higher damage spec, but suffers from poor target swapping so respeccing to Arsenal for some fights may be better.

[Darth__Reaver]

Marksmenship could and SHOULD always beat a merc. I don't care what yall have to say. Equal skill MM vs Arsenal merc = MM hands down. Hell I even hunt MERCS on my sniper for easy kills and laughs at DCD.

[Floplag]

Marksmenship could and SHOULD always beat a merc. I don't care what yall have to say. Equal skill MM vs Arsenal merc = MM hands down. Hell I even hunt MERCS on my sniper for easy kills and laughs at DCD.

 

EVERYONE hunts Mercs, we are easy kills to almost anyone that truly gets it, but the statement shows the differences in the DCD issues quite nicely if even a class that is considered on the same "tier" goes out of their way to hunt us.

 

That having been said, a good Merc is not an easy kill.. you may get us, but it wont be easy unless you catch us without and cooldowns and you have all yours.

[Darth__Reaver]

EVERYONE hunts Mercs, we are easy kills to almost anyone that truly gets it, but the statement shows the differences in the DCD issues quite nicely if even a class that is considered on the same "tier" goes out of their way to hunt us.

 

That having been said, a good Merc is not an easy kill.. you may get us, but it wont be easy unless you catch us without and cooldowns and you have all yours.

 

That is true a good merc can hold his own (like you said if he has all his CDs) I was just saying equal skill merc arsenal vs sniper MM. Sniper would dominate.

[Floplag]

That is true a good merc can hold his own (like you said if he has all his CDs) I was just saying equal skill merc arsenal vs sniper MM. Sniper would dominate.

 

I dont think i would say dominate, but thats me.

I also think spec matters... in IO snipers are far easier than they are in Arsenal.

Terrain also matters. if caught in the open with no LOS they have a definite advantage, if you can use any LOS, not so much, we still have more mobility than they do in that regard.

would/Should they win... yeah, probably all things being equal, but i dont think its as easy as all that and I win a fair amount of those fights personally.

[foxmob]

sniper would most certainly dominate in a mexican standoff. but a merc can los and break roots with cleanse and HO, so it's a very real possibility that a merc wins. just not toe to toe.

 

edit: not that this has anything to do with the actual thread topic at this point.

Edited June 10, 2015 by foxmob

[Jimmajamma]

EVERYONE hunts Mercs

 

Maybe the devs just enjoy irony?

[Zoom_VI]

Why are people discussing 1v1s here? What matters for viability is how the class performs in a group setting, and in a group setting a marksman sniper is a direct upgrade over gunnery.

[Whaitwhutwalrus]

Why are people discussing 1v1s here? What matters for viability is how the class performs in a group setting, and in a group setting a marksman sniper is a direct upgrade over gunnery.

 

Agreed, 1 v 1 should not be what they balance on since all pvp instances are not focused on 1 v 1.

 

I don't think bringing the burst to the same level would be how to go about bringing gunnery up to par do to it's ability to run and gun. The sniper does have good mobility as you stated however it is limited in what it can do while on the move (frag grenade, corrosive dart, rifle shot, takedown (if opponet is below 30 percent), followthrough ( if it's available at the time). A sniper can't use any of hits high burst while on the move while the merc can still put out some of its heavy hitting moves no problem while moving. (granted only useful in certain situations)

 

As I've stated earlier i believe a possible solution to this would be to upgrade the mercs off-heals to be on par with sorcs ability to off heal ( so that the merc won't be suffering from heat issues afterwords [a sorc can off-heal with little to no issues with energy afterwards] ). That way the merc will still have a place due to its increased survivability, mobility, and off-healing. While the sniper does bring great burst potential to the team, that's about all it brings in marksman.

[Zoom_VI]

Agreed, 1 v 1 should not be what they balance on since all pvp instances are not focused on 1 v 1.

 

I don't think bringing the burst to the same level would be how to go about bringing gunnery up to par do to it's ability to run and gun. The sniper does have good mobility as you stated however it is limited in what it can do while on the move (frag grenade, corrosive dart, rifle shot, takedown (if opponet is below 30 percent), followthrough ( if it's available at the time). A sniper can't use any of hits high burst while on the move while the merc can still put out some of its heavy hitting moves no problem while moving. (granted only useful in certain situations)

 

As I've stated earlier i believe a possible solution to this would be to upgrade the mercs off-heals to be on par with sorcs ability to off heal ( so that the merc won't be suffering from heat issues afterwords [a sorc can off-heal with little to no issues with energy afterwards] ). That way the merc will still have a place due to its increased survivability, mobility, and off-healing. While the sniper does bring great burst potential to the team, that's about all it brings in marksman.

 

I could deal with not having quite as much burst if I at least has the same level of burst reliability and control. What makes marksman so ridiculous is that it's burst is so dependable.

[stridemachine]

The damage from engineering is pitiful. I stick to its mirror on gunslinger, but I have no illusions about our damage being great, it would be nice if the abilities matched the damned tooltips damage at least. Sabotage is supposed to hit for 4500-5000 damage for me at the moment, and it CONSTANTLY only hits for 3200. ***...

 

I've been wondering if Sab's 30% surge bonuses are working...Granted I'm just a lvl 57 sniper, but I have not noticed any difference in damage after getting the talent Experimental Explosives :/

[Darth__Reaver]

Why are people discussing 1v1s here? What matters for viability is how the class performs in a group setting, and in a group setting a marksman sniper is a direct upgrade over gunnery.

 

Well if we're talking overall performance ok. I've seen a sniper in my server dudes damn good always hitting 1.4m+ on any given day. Hell sometimes I try to number crunch on arsenal to so how well I keep up. Only in pyro can I come close to his numbers. I've also faced him a few times. Tried to Los him. Like I said he is good so I'm forced to run away (I believe someone already said that tactic) I've also been hit by him for 19k and seen his biggest hit of 19k multiple times in warzones. I even screenshot them I get that impressed lol (not saying I'm on his D... Or am I???). Dudes like a tank. There is also a decent slinger as well but nothing compared to Khronik. That's for sure.

[Draqsko]

Where is everyone getting DPS Mercmandos have self-healing?

 

It's one activation heal on 13.5s CD and one instant heal on 21s CD and then you are tapping medshots for 1-2k per GCD. Against most burst specs you aren't benefited from trying to get those heals off since they'll be removed in less time than it takes to apply them. The most I've ever gotten outta them was about 25k total hp, which as my mando, I can remove 30k hp in the same amount of time.

 

Sorry but this isn't like Sorcs or Operatives with HoTs and some self healing doesn't take away much from actually doing your job of DPSing. If a mercmando is having to resort to self healing, they cannot DPS and therefore are already suffering a penalty for it. There's no need to penalize their damage on top of it.

[Floplag]

Where is everyone getting DPS Mercmandos have self-healing?

 

It's one activation heal on 13.5s CD and one instant heal on 21s CD and then you are tapping medshots for 1-2k per GCD. Against most burst specs you aren't benefited from trying to get those heals off since they'll be removed in less time than it takes to apply them. The most I've ever gotten outta them was about 25k total hp, which as my mando, I can remove 30k hp in the same amount of time.

 

Sorry but this isn't like Sorcs or Operatives with HoTs and some self healing doesn't take away much from actually doing your job of DPSing. If a mercmando is having to resort to self healing, they cannot DPS and therefore are already suffering a penalty for it. There's no need to penalize their damage on top of it.

 

Also a very good point, perhaps one of the best that outlines the true difference in the classes with supposed off heals.

[Whaitwhutwalrus]

Also a very good point, perhaps one of the best that outlines the true difference in the classes with supposed off heals.

 

Which brings be back to my point that merc heals need to be put on par with the other two off-healing classes (ops and sorcs) to the point where the off heals are effective and are not so heat consuming.

 

Also zoom brought up an interesting point, one that i did not consider. Gunnerys burst is not nearly as reliable as marksman, I don't see the harm in boosting it's reliability either.

 

Then again all of these suggestions are probably going to be ignored by the devs (not saying they will, but past experiences have shown this to be true).

[Floplag]

Which brings be back to my point that merc heals need to be put on par with the other two off-healing classes (ops and sorcs) to the point where the off heals are effective and are not so heat consuming.

 

Also zoom brought up an interesting point, one that i did not consider. Gunnerys burst is not nearly as reliable as marksman, I don't see the harm in boosting it's reliability either.

 

Then again all of these suggestions are probably going to be ignored by the devs (not saying they will, but past experiences have shown this to be true).

 

our burst also isnt front loaded as theirs is... heatseeker and rail dont hit their hardest without tracer missile stacks up front, something people also forget.

[MusicRider]

Out of curiosity what are you willing to trade?

[TheCourier-]

Out of curiosity what are you willing to trade?

 

Most mercs seem more than willing to give up their cleanse, since most mercs don't talk about cleansing flashbangs and concussion missiles.

Edited June 11, 2015 by TheCourier-

[foxmob]

Most mercs seem more than willing to give up their cleanse, since most mercs don't talk about cleansing flashbangs and concussion missiles.

 

and sleep dart. oh! wait....

[Floplag]

Out of curiosity what are you willing to trade?

 

why should we trade anything? did anyone else trade for their recent buffs or QoL adjustments?

our off heals are already far below others,.. what more do you want?

 

Tell you what, you give us some kind of help to stop the global, and ill stop complaining that our off heals are far below all other hybrid classes.. hows that for a trade?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Floplag

[Zoom_VI]

Most mercs seem more than willing to give up their cleanse, since most mercs don't talk about cleansing flashbangs and concussion missiles.

 

What use does cleansing flashbangs have when the flashbang is just going to be broken within a second from one of the dozen or so dots the target invariably has on them in the current meta?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[TheCourier-]

What use does cleansing flashbangs have when the flashbang is just going to be broken within a second from one of the dozen or so dots the target invariably has on them in the current meta?

 

Apparently you don't fight 1 marksman, 1 AP teams.

Edited June 11, 2015 by TheCourier-

[MusicRider]

why should we trade anything? did anyone else trade for their recent buffs or QoL adjustments?

our off heals are already far below others,.. what more do you want?

 

Tell you what, you give us some kind of help to stop the global, and ill stop complaining that our off heals are far below all other hybrid classes.. hows that for a trade?

 

Never said that mercs don't need something, I was pointing out that a simple plain straight buff might not be the best way to do it, reworking the toolset is what you should be looking at if you care about balance. Getting MM burst, operative like heals, anti focus sorc alike mechanism plus all the rest mercs already have then https://youtu.be/PdFZmaYnle0?t=1m45s. And which recent buffs are you referring to? For example FS got nerfed to the ground, a well deserved nerf but questionable whether that extend was needed.