Ruffian/Lethality

[dego-harmonium]

How to beat "best sorc world" as lethality with 35k gear ~

 

 

Obv leth in 3.0 is worse than leth before 3.0 plus its potential DPS is also worse than other existing classes. Idk how anyone could argue against that but that doesn't make it not "ranked viable".

 

That really doesn't show how they are ranked viable, lethality simply do not do any of the things that makes a AC good for ranked in this game, its about as viable as engineering is

 

Do they put out good pressure dps? No

Are they good for hard switch's? No

Do they have a good survivability? No

 

Lethality used to have some decent burst and was a decent pressure spec before 3.0 and even then it was not really optimal for ranked PvP, it never has been really. A great player can make the best of it, the majority of AC"s out perform lethality

Edited May 26, 2015 by dego-harmonium

[xAgonyyy]

That really doesn't show how they are ranked viable, lethality simply do not do any of the things that makes a AC good for ranked in this game, its about as viable as engineering is

 

Do they put out good pressure dps? No

Are they good for hard switch's? No

Do they have a good survivability? No

 

Lethality used to have some decent burst and wasn't a decent pressure spec before 3.0 and even then it was not really optimal for ranked PvP, it never has been really. A great player can make the best of it, the majority of AC"s out perform lethality

 

lol ok obviously anything that isn't a pt, sin, sorc or sniper isn't "ranked viable". After all that's what all the bads run these days --- fotm comps.

 

However that doesn't make the spec unplayable in ranked. The only reason why people think is not "ranked viable" is because there are better comps to run. If kids stop running fotm **** the supposedly "underpowered" classes such as maras, operatives and mercs will do just fine.

 

And FYI leth had great pressure before 3.0 and also relatively good survivability. Sadly BW is brain dead and made unnecessary nerfs to the spec in this garbage patch but its survivability and pressure are not by any nature close to being awful

Edited May 26, 2015 by xAgonyyy

[wadecounty]

Maybe its just me, but I feel like they need to remove the requirement to have both dots up on the target in order to get the normal damage of Brutal Shots. I can't think of another dot spec with this strict of a requirement for one of their big hitters, and then it still costs a tactical/upper hand on top of that!

 

If they made the damage on Brutal Shots constant, and instead made the benefit of your dots purely more DPS and better energy management, at least then you'd have a semi burst option available when needed for target swaps or if your target uses a purge. Nothing much changes for PvE with that change but in PvP the class can actually keep pressure, but for long term engagements and to have damage worth caring about they'd of course still need to apply their dots.

 

Alternatively, have Lethal Strike/Point-Blank Shot apply 1 or both dots automatically when used from stealth. This would add a substantial amount of burst to the opener at least.

 

I'd still prefer to have the Brutal Shots damage no longer tied directly to the application of dots though, as it backloads the spec far more than other dot specs that at least have the option of using heavy hitters before dot application in certain circumstances.

 

Here's a comparison for you, imagine if you made Railshot do 60% of its damage unless Retractable were already applied to your primary target. PT's would freak out. And yet Ops/Scoundrels need 2 dots, not even just 1. Just do it like Retractable, where you lose the benefits of the dot's energy regen if its not up along with the dots damage itself.

 

Or, you could even go next level... if both dots are present, instead of making it a useable attack, make it a better attack. So, its damage is constant (what it is now when you have both dots up), but now when you have both dots up, the crit and surge bonus on the attack are each increased by 15%. Now, I can't say whether this would unbalance things for PvE, but for PvP it would help both in terms of raising burst a bit (the added crit/surge) and greatly aiding target swaps (the removal of the need for both dots for even decent damage).

 

EDIT: And I know Snipers have a similar issue but being ranged makes target swaps far easier for them already, and they have better filler options like Series of Shots and an actual execute.

Edited May 26, 2015 by wadecounty

[xAgonyyy]

The only things they need to change about this spec is allow dot spread (both dots) on corrosive grenade, bring back infusion proc on second roll, and also bring back second tick of dots

[dego-harmonium]

The only things they need to change about this spec is allow dot spread (both dots) on corrosive grenade, bring back infusion proc on second roll, and also bring back second tick of dots

 

I could live with that I used to prefer lethality in 2.X to concealment, it was a very underated spec. I am mostly buthurt because they admitted it was the least used spec in the game just before 3.0, and they were going to look at making it a more desireable spec, then managed to make it worse in 3.0 /boggle

 

I think it boils down to the small population that plays ranked which looks to be about 7k toons this season (so most likely 4000 or less unique players) does so on optimal roles which makes compounds the problem further

Edited May 26, 2015 by dego-harmonium

[stridemachine]

And FYI leth had great pressure before 3.0 and also relatively good survivability. Sadly BW is brain dead and made unnecessary nerfs to the spec in this garbage patch but its survivability and pressure are not by any nature close to being awful

 

^^this so much. I loved lethality pre 3.0. I fully agree w/ the garbage patch sentiment as well

 

I am mostly buthurt because they admitted it was the least used spec in the game just before 3.0, and they were going to look at making it a more desireable spec, then managed to make it worse in 3.0 /boggle

 

^^This as well. /speechless

[-Healius-]

 

alternatively, have lethal strike/point-blank shot apply 1 or both dots automatically when used from stealth. This would add a substantial amount of burst to the opener at least.

 

yes yes yes!

[KeyboardNinja]

Alternatively, have Lethal Strike/Point-Blank Shot apply 1 or both dots automatically when used from stealth. This would add a substantial amount of burst to the opener at least.

 

This is a really neat idea. It's still more backloaded than Concealment, but you get your setup in faster. The burst from Corrosive Assault is still going to be more spread out than it is for Cull in Virulence, but at least our two empty GCDs disappear. The tradeoff would be that we don't get any AoE dotting from Corrosive Grenade applied in such a way, which seems 100% fair to me.

 

If we combine this with my off-GCD Toxic Blast idea, that basically gives us the following opener:

 

(stealth) Lethal Strike > Toxic Blast + Corrosive Assault > Shiv > Corrosive Assault x3

 

You would have the option to move one of the triple Corrosive Assaults ahead of the Shiv if you needed more up-front burst. Even without that though, that looks like an appreciable amount of damage. Enough to at least make the target and/or the healer take notice.

[Zunayson]

This is a really neat idea. It's still more backloaded than Concealment, but you get your setup in faster. The burst from Corrosive Assault is still going to be more spread out than it is for Cull in Virulence, but at least our two empty GCDs disappear. The tradeoff would be that we don't get any AoE dotting from Corrosive Grenade applied in such a way, which seems 100% fair to me.

 

If we combine this with my off-GCD Toxic Blast idea, that basically gives us the following opener:

 

(stealth) Lethal Strike > Toxic Blast + Corrosive Assault > Shiv > Corrosive Assault x3

 

You would have the option to move one of the triple Corrosive Assaults ahead of the Shiv if you needed more up-front burst. Even without that though, that looks like an appreciable amount of damage. Enough to at least make the target and/or the healer take notice.

 

That'd be pretty crazy.

[stridemachine]

This is a really neat idea. It's still more backloaded than Concealment, but you get your setup in faster. The burst from Corrosive Assault is still going to be more spread out than it is for Cull in Virulence, but at least our two empty GCDs disappear. The tradeoff would be that we don't get any AoE dotting from Corrosive Grenade applied in such a way, which seems 100% fair to me.

 

If we combine this with my off-GCD Toxic Blast idea, that basically gives us the following opener:

 

(stealth) Lethal Strike > Toxic Blast + Corrosive Assault > Shiv > Corrosive Assault x3

 

You would have the option to move one of the triple Corrosive Assaults ahead of the Shiv if you needed more up-front burst. Even without that though, that looks like an appreciable amount of damage. Enough to at least make the target and/or the healer take notice.

 

Good suggestions.

 

Additionally, I'd like to see DoT damage by all classes brought down to Ruffian levels

[lavatsunami]

The thing that I disliked about this spec was the lvl 57 talent. I feel like we're a ranged dot spec yet we get a clunky melee move that has a gimmicky dot damage increase at lvl 59.

 

I would've like a new dot at lvl 57 that replaces vital shot, is an aoe dot (so we don't need to worry about our current clunky dot spread mechanic), does more damage than vital shot, and while we're at it, lets just say it's a guaranteed double tick bleed. That way, sanguinary shot ups the damage even more than usual.

 

Or hell, give us a move that shares a cooldown with thermal grenade, does way more damage, costs less energy and spreads our vital shot.

 

The majority of the time playing this spec, I'm keeping dots up, keeping hots up, and going in for a kill when I can. Having a better ranged move makes way more sense for a lvl 57 talent than point blank shot.

Edited June 4, 2015 by lavatsunami

[Rion_Starkiller]

Let's go over a few of the more useless Ruffian abilities:

 

-quick shot

-blaster volley

-cover

 

Quick Shot costs far too much energy to be used as a filler. I have it on my quickbar, but i almost never use it.

Blaster Volley has got to be the worst AoE in the game. And now it also spreads your DoTs. Enjoy.

Cover: I understand why healers can't use cover to gain 20% defense bonus, but why not us Ruffian/Scrappers? I'm not sure I'd ever use it, but it might be useful in applying DoTs and ranged attacks, or in survivability as a sort of kite-roll.

 

 

 

Point Blank Shot (PBS) Pro Tip

I have to point out that in order to have effective DoT's you absolutely must use Point Blank Shot on CD. It gives ALL of your DoT's +20% damage for 6 seconds (Cheap Shots). Now imagine a WZ with 5+ people fighting at a node, and your DoTs ticking on all of them....

Edited June 9, 2015 by Rion_Starkiller

[Quarast]

Good suggestions.

 

Additionally, I'd like to see DoT damage by all classes brought down to Ruffian levels

 

Why would you take the dots of madness, a spec that basically is dots and fl, down to the level of lethality, which is not a dot class but a delayed burst class? The dots of this spec are fine, because it is not a dot spec. The set-up, however, is too long.

[stridemachine]

Why would you take the dots of madness, a spec that basically is dots and fl, down to the level of lethality, which is not a dot class but a delayed burst class? The dots of this spec are fine, because it is not a dot spec. The set-up, however, is too long.

 

Curious statements. How is Ruffian not a dot spec? How would you define Hatred?

 

In answer to your first question: I don't believe dots should be a strong source of damage, especially when cleanses do not work on them. Madness has its own issues -- they need more burst, not more dot damage. I would lower DoT damage and give Madness some much needed umph -- increase the damage of Telekinetic Throw and also make Project worth using. Give Force Leech added kick. Currently the spec is worthless in PVE.

 

An additional bonus to lowering DoT damage across the board for everyone would be a drop off in number padding. Currently, Ruffian dot's are so pathetic that tab dotting simply won't do anything for your scorecard -- it's all about Brutal Shots. Give madness something to care about aside from their dot's and I'm sure tab-dotting would drastically drop off. Ditto for Hatred. Furthermore, pressure comps would not be king of Ranked -- we'd get some much needed variety to compositions, which would make everyone happy (ier? maybe lol)

[KeyboardNinja]

Let's go over a few of the more useless Ruffian abilities:

 

-quick shot

-blaster volley

-cover

 

Quick Shot costs far too much energy to be used as a filler. I have it on my quickbar, but i almost never use it.

Blaster Volley has got to be the worst AoE in the game. And now it also spreads your DoTs. Enjoy.

Cover: I understand why healers can't use cover to gain 20% defense bonus, but why not us Ruffian/Scrappers? I'm not sure I'd ever use it, but it might be useful in applying DoTs and ranged attacks, or in survivability as a sort of kite-roll.

 

Quick Shot is used as filler if you're going to energy cap, PBS on cooldown, Blaster Whip and Sanguinary Shot on cooldown, DoTs with plenty of duration and no Upper Hand. In other words, rarely, but it does happen.

 

Blaster Volley is most definitely the worst AoE in the game. It's a good way to spread your Vital Shot though, which is useful more as a way to allow rapid target swapping with Brutal Shots than as a way to get fluff sustained damage. So, sort of useful, but not great.

 

I don't use cover at all anymore.

 

Point Blank Shot (PBS) Pro Tip

I have to point out that in order to have effective DoT's you absolutely must use Point Blank Shot on CD. It gives ALL of your DoT's +20% damage for 6 seconds (Cheap Shots). Now imagine a WZ with 5+ people fighting at a node, and your DoTs ticking on all of them....

 

You don't use Point Blank Shot on CD. If you do that, you won't have enough time or energy to use Sanguinary Shot on CD without Upper Hand capping. The buff really isn't worth all that much. It's a minor boost for two total ticks per target, and that's basically it. PBS is a pretty great ability from a pure damage standpoint, but Sanguinary Shot is better.

[Zoom_VI]

Cover: I understand why healers can't use cover to gain 20% defense bonus, but why not us Ruffian/Scrappers? I'm not sure I'd ever use it, but it might be useful in applying DoTs and ranged attacks, or in survivability as a sort of kite-roll.

Rolling into natural cover still provides total ranged immunity (granted its LoS dependant)

[Rion_Starkiller]

Quick Shot is used as filler if you're going to energy cap, PBS on cooldown, Blaster Whip and Sanguinary Shot on cooldown, DoTs with plenty of duration and no Upper Hand. In other words, rarely, but it does happen.

 

Blaster Volley is most definitely the worst AoE in the game. It's a good way to spread your Vital Shot though, which is useful more as a way to allow rapid target swapping with Brutal Shots than as a way to get fluff sustained damage. So, sort of useful, but not great.

 

I don't use cover at all anymore.

 

You don't use Point Blank Shot on CD. If you do that, you won't have enough time or energy to use Sanguinary Shot on CD without Upper Hand capping. The buff really isn't worth all that much. It's a minor boost for two total ticks per target, and that's basically it. PBS is a pretty great ability from a pure damage standpoint, but Sanguinary Shot is better.

 

Hi KBN,

I love your guide. It is very well written, and spot on.

 

Sorry for the confusion about PBS. I should have written "for PVP."

 

I always try to use SS on CD. I don't think I specified in my earlier post, but in pvp, you should have enough energy to use PBS on CD because you'll be kited, rooted, stunned, and thrown around. In addition, you'll have your DoT's ticking on multiple targets, thus creating energy. You'll probably hit the UH cap, but if you feel like you never have enough UH for Brutal Shots, you can always take the utility that makes Tendon Blast grant UH. You'll be using TB to root and slow anyway (assuming you take the utility -- and you should).

Edited June 10, 2015 by Rion_Starkiller
grammar, clarity

[Quarast]

Curious statements. How is Ruffian not a dot spec? How would you define Hatred?

 

In answer to your first question: I don't believe dots should be a strong source of damage, especially when cleanses do not work on them. Madness has its own issues -- they need more burst, not more dot damage. I would lower DoT damage and give Madness some much needed umph -- increase the damage of Telekinetic Throw and also make Project worth using. Give Force Leech added kick. Currently the spec is worthless in PVE.

 

An additional bonus to lowering DoT damage across the board for everyone would be a drop off in number padding. Currently, Ruffian dot's are so pathetic that tab dotting simply won't do anything for your scorecard -- it's all about Brutal Shots. Give madness something to care about aside from their dot's and I'm sure tab-dotting would drastically drop off. Ditto for Hatred. Furthermore, pressure comps would not be king of Ranked -- we'd get some much needed variety to compositions, which would make everyone happy (ier? maybe lol)

 

Hatred's only non-dot dmg is basically assasinate procs and thrash. Lethality has half its damage from corrosive assault, and the other half split between shiv, lethal strike, weakening, dots....

 

Nerfing pressure specs would make them pointless in ranked, and overnerfing them to the levels of a BURST, not DOT spec is a bad idea.

[stridemachine]

Hatred's only non-dot dmg is basically assasinate procs and thrash. Lethality has half its damage from corrosive assault, and the other half split between shiv, lethal strike, weakening, dots....

 

Nerfing pressure specs would make them pointless in ranked, and overnerfing them to the levels of a BURST, not DOT spec is a bad idea.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Hatred's burst puts lethality's to shame -- heck, just about every dps spec in the game shame's lethality's burst. Assassinate hits 9-12k on a regular basis. Serentity strike does 7k, Death Field 6k, all while real dot damage ticks away (that's not even considering the insane damage of Crushing Darkness). With the exception of Brutal Shots, none of our attacks hit that hard. NONE. While its true that 40% of lethality's damage comes from Brutal Shots, it's not because BS is some awe inspiring burst attack, it's because every single attack we have is pitifully lackluster. If Shiv, Lethal Strike or Frag grenade do not crit, you're doing 1.2-2k damage (crits off these moves hit 4-5k) -- you think AP does that sorta damage with their burst moves? Furthermore, Brutal Shots must crit on all 3 hits to be effective, or once again you doing damage in the 1.5-2.5k range (crits hitting for 3.5-4k). So go ahead and spam 3 Brutal Shots -- which equal 9 individual hits with a rough chance of seeing maybe 2-3 of those hits critting -- and congratulations, you just did as much damage as a rail shot or volatile substance (while taking much much longer to do so).

 

Lethality is NOT a burst spec. If you want to call 7 gcd's worth of moves a delayed burst spec, then ok I guess? That sounds super effective. IF anything I'd classify Lethatity as a sustained damage class with terrific off heals.

Edited June 13, 2015 by stridemachine

[Quarast]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Hatred's burst puts lethality's to shame -- heck, just about every dps spec in the game shame's lethality's burst. Assassinate hits 9-12k on a regular basis. Serentity strike does 7k, Death Field 6k, all while real dot damage ticks away (that's not even considering the insane damage of Crushing Darkness). With the exception of Brutal Shots, none of our attacks hit that hard. NONE. While its true that 40% of lethality's damage comes from Brutal Shots, it's not because BS is some awe inspiring burst attack, it's because every single attack we have is pitifully lackluster. If Shiv, Lethal Strike or Frag grenade do not crit, you're doing 1.2-2k damage (crits off these moves hit 4-5k) -- you think AP does that sorta damage with their burst moves? Furthermore, Brutal Shots must crit on all 3 hits to be effective, or once again you doing damage in the 1.5-2.5k range (crits hitting for 3.5-4k). So go ahead and spam 3 Brutal Shots -- which equal 9 individual hits with a rough chance of seeing maybe 2-3 of those hits critting -- and congratulations, you just did as much damage as a rail shot or volatile substance (while taking much much longer to do so).

 

Lethality is NOT a burst spec. If you want to call 7 gcd's worth of moves a delayed burst spec, then ok I guess? That sounds super effective. IF anything I'd classify Lethatity as a sustained damage class with terrific off heals.

 

You seem to have a sin in min-maxed 174s and an op in 156s.

The point of mentioning hatred was to show that when the overwhelming majority of a spec's dps come from non-dot abilities, and the dot abilities are merely meant to buff the main damage abilities, the spec is not a dot spec. There's a difference between dot spec and a spec with dots, which is a concept you haven't grasped yet.

For instance, all sniper specs benefit from placing corrosive dart on the target. Are engineering and marksmanship dot specs?

Lightning sorcs benefit from placing affliction on the target. Is lightning a dot spec?

AP pts benefit from placing retractable blade on the target. Is AP a dot spec?

Lethality relies on dots a bit more, as it requires two to buff its main ability. However, it's not a dotspec because without dot DAMAGE, the spec can do decent damage. Without dots, madness and hatred lose a big chunk of dps.

 

tl:dr lethality is a spec with dots, not a dot spec. The set up time needs to be reduced, but do not buff fluff dot dmg.

[stridemachine]

You seem to have a sin in min-maxed 174s and an op in 156s.

The point of mentioning hatred was to show that when the overwhelming majority of a spec's dps come from non-dot abilities, and the dot abilities are merely meant to buff the main damage abilities, the spec is not a dot spec. There's a difference between dot spec and a spec with dots,

Lethality relies on dots a bit more, as it requires two to buff its main ability. However, it's not a dotspec because without dot DAMAGE, the spec can do decent damage. Without dots, madness and hatred lose a big chunk of dps.

 

tl:dr lethality is a spec with dots, not a dot spec. The set up time needs to be reduced, but do not buff fluff dot dmg.

 

Just dug yourself a hole there -- by your definition, lethality is a dot spec because it relies on its dots to do most of its damage. Reason being: Brutal Shots is worthless without dots present. Without Brutal Shots Ruffian is completely worthless. .

Edited June 13, 2015 by stridemachine

[Star_of_Shili]

Everything Stridemachine just said.

 

Also stupefied that you can claim Lethality/Ruffian as "not a dot spec." Refer to the following side by side comparison of abilities. (Forgive the following mixed terms; I'm more familiar with Rep. terminology.)

 

Hatred: |||||| Lethality/Ruffian:

 

creeping terror (root) |||||| corrosive grenade (30% slow)

discharge |||||| vital shot

death field (+ death mark) |||||| sanguinary shots (adds extra weapon damage to brutal shots, per dot ?)

BONUS: crushing darkness-- |||||| [devs removed automatically applied weaker versions of dots]

initial hit + dot damage

 

 

non-dot related damage:

 

thrash (spammable, CD procs) |||||| shiv (6s cd, tac. adv.)

leeching strike |||||| point-blank blast.

assassinate procs |||||| brutal shots

 

 

Lined up the comparisons as best I could in a short time, and in pretty much every category, Hatred has what could even be termed a massive advantage. Aside from that, since that isn't the main point right now.... if Hatred is a dot spec and Lethality isn't.... well they seem pretty comparable to me, dot to dot, ability to ability. The disciplines function differently because they are meant to and it would be dumb to have repeats with simply different names and animations. But claiming Lethality is less of a dot spec than Hatred? ....

 

Moving from the "dot spec" debate a little now, I wonder how often you can use brutal shots, vs how often assassinate procs. On my sin it seems like I nearly always have it up, and if it isn't, leeching strike will be.

 

If you have played both ACs extensively, which it really seems like you couldn't have, you would feel the difference in both non-dot damage ability power and the effectiveness of the dots themselves. (Not to mention the clear superiority of death field as a dot spread, and the fact that its death mark effect applies to all targets struck: not the single target affected by sanguinary shots, buffing the "fluff" damage hatred does to non primary targets.)

 

The only thing Lethality has in clear superiority over Hatred is the self healing. I wouldn't even say it has better mobility than assassins, considering force speed (egress) and (root) knockback. But honestly the times I regret the lack of self healing capability on my assassin, compared to my ruffian, are virtually nil.

 

I have a tool for everything as a sin, allowing me not only to live, but unlike a ruffian, to dps at the same time. And unless I am going up against a really solid team, one of those many utility cooldowns are usually available for me and off cd when I need them.

 

Those are my thoughts.

[Quarast]

Just dug yourself a hole there -- by your definition, lethality is a dot spec because it relies on its dots to do most of its damage. Reason being: Brutal Shots is worthless without dots present. Without Brutal Shots Ruffian is completely worthless. .

 

You're thinking of virulence cull, which triggers dots. Op cull has an additional tech component IF THE DOTS ARE PRESENT. Not a dot

[Cryowolf]

However, it's not a dotspec because without dot DAMAGE, the spec can do decent damage...

 

No, it cannot. While you could cut away the fluff of the damage of the dots themselves, the fact that they are required to give CA its max damage (60% without dots present), just further cements this as a dot class. Lethality needs its dots to reach its maximum output.

 

I see what you're trying to prove here, but it just isn't true. It absolutely is a dot class that just plays a bit differently than the more traditional dot classes of madness/hatred. Simply because the dots themselves do weak damage, doesn't mean they can't define the spec.

 

In my opinion, the dots should do much more damage (2-2.5x more), or CA should do more of it's damage (90%) without the dots present. The second option would push the class into your view, I think.

[stridemachine]

You're thinking of virulence cull, which triggers dots. Op cull has an additional tech component IF THE DOTS ARE PRESENT. Not a dot

 

You misunderstand - Brutal Shots is worthless without both dots on a target. Removing the tech component, as you call it, removes the burst, leaving 1 white damage hit. Remove the dots and you take away most of Ruffian's ability to deal damage, ergo in your own terms, Ruffian is a dot spec.